Talk:Vietnam War casualties

What the Fuck?

Over one million Americans died in Vietnam? That number seems not only inaccurate but grossly inflated. I'm pretty sure that most historical accounts have the number of U.S. dead at around 60,000. I checked the casualty records at the archive and the list is around 58,193. I think the guy who wrote 1,000,000 must have added up the totals for all the different subsets, failing to realize each subset was just categorizing the same casualties in a different way.

Democide

The concept of democide is specious and really only accepted by a single thinker: Rummel. Adding to this, the notion of democide seems superfluous to this page (how many discrete subcategories of death should we account for?), and it requires a sort of mind reading and assumption of intent. So we see, for instance, that while the US is responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths during the course of the war, all but ~6000 appear as "justified" or are shrugged off as "collateral damage" if we look at Rummel's "democide" estimates. Apart from an obvious display of ideological bias, this seems a bit misleading -- a cursory glance at the chart in the middle of this article would have an uninformed reader coming away with the impression that the US only killed upwards of 10,000 people in Vietnam.

Given 1) Rummel (and his ideological bias) already saturate this page, 2) Rummel's concept of "democide" is fairly heterodox in the field of political science, and 3) these estimates are misleading and likely unnecessary, I'd suggest all references to "democide" ought to be removed from this page.

Recent Edit Citing Joseph Babcock Article

Per the article. https://www.thedailybeast.com/lost-souls-the-search-for-vietnams-300000-or-more-mias

"The Vietnamese government puts the number [of officially missing] at 300,000, but the actual number of those whose bodies were buried in anonymous graves or never found and buried at all is widely believed to be closer to 500,000. "

article is not about how "unclear it is" how such and such numbers connect to anything else. this is drawing conclusions about something which isn't stated and clearly misrepresenting the article.

just to clarify; the only issue seems to be using the article to prove a point which it doesn't draw. it doesn't 'discredit' any source as the original wording seems to suggest.

A bicyclette, you have tried raising this argument before. The current wording formulation is correct. It is unclear how the Vietnamese government figures deal with the missing which number anywhere between 300,000 and 500,000. You claim that the Vietnamese government figures include missing when they clearly don't. Mztourist (talk) 09:25, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Don't know why you keep calling me a bicyclette. either way; you are drawing an WP:SYNTH from what isn't there. it isn't meant to discredit anything as you suggest, Joseph Babcock merely stated a position. i suggest getting a neutral editor to read the article and settle it. 216.209.50.103 (talk) 09:28, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Can I honestly ask why you are so obsessed with these little things? Like, what does it personally mean to you? I find it strange since I'm just looking at you spending basically your entire time reverting edits by virtually everyone on every page. And that's all you do. You make no effort to reconcile anything with anyone, its either your way or no way.216.209.50.103 (talk) 09:32, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Why are you so obsessed A bicyclette? You have tried directly and through socks to blurs the facts surrounding PAVN/VC casualties for the last two years. Mztourist (talk) 09:59, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Neither that person you are talking about, nor am I doing what you suggested I am. You should actually re-read the article you cited. Its pretty clear you are taking sources to create a narrative which it doesn't support. You spent your holidays getting into edit wars with people but its easier to just reconcile a point. 216.209.50.103 (talk) 11:16, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/A bicyclette Mztourist (talk) 13:12, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Moyar was wrong

Moyar was wrong. 849,018 dead are INCULDING the number of missing. I'm Vietnamese, and I see he was wrong when translated Vietnamese source. See this first data, which Moyar translated - http://datafile.chinhsachquandoi.gov.vn/Qu%E1%BA%A3n%20l%C3%BD%20ch%E1%BB%89%20%C4%91%E1%BA%A1o/Chuy%C3%AAn%20%C4%91%E1%BB%81%204.doc

+ Liệt sĩ hy sinh trong kháng chiến chống Mỹ: 849.018 liệt sĩ. - In Vietnamese, "liệt sĩ" = dead + missing, not only "dead" (in Vietnamese, "missing" = "liệt sĩ cần tìm kiếm quy tập"). "Theo số lượng thống kê, đến nay số hài cốt liệt sĩ cần tìm kiếm quy tập còn khoảng 207.000, tập trung ở những địa bàn vùng sâu, vùng xa, hiểm trở, việc tìm kiếm rất khó khăn do thiếu thông tin..." - 207,000 are number of missing, and they were counted in "liệt sĩ" (849.018 total)Cucthanh (talk) 10:19, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

This has all been discussed previously and the page (before your changes) reflects the competing claims and the consensus. This is a contentious area that must be discussed here per WP:BRD. Don't WP:EDITWAR the page. Mztourist (talk) 10:31, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

I saw the page's history. This is the first change - http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Vietnam_War_casualties&type=revision&diff=1120762057&oldid=1120455398 - 8 November 2022, Nihlus1 added missing figures, but he didn't discuss for this change. He quoted Moyar's book, but I found he was wrong when translated Vietnamese source. So, I fixed this figure as of before 8 NovemberCucthanh (talk) 10:41, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

See the conversations above and read what the page actually states. Your insistence that we should rely only on the Vietnamese Government's official position is not accepted. Are you back again User:A bicyclette? Mztourist (talk) 10:46, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

"Your insistence that we should rely only on the Vietnamese Government's official position is not accepted" - but in fact, Moyar's figure was translated from Vietnamese Government's data (this link i quoted). If Vietnamese Government's official position is not accepted, Moyar's figure is not accepted, too. Moyar used to Vietnamese Government's data is not matter, this matter is Moyar was wrong when he translate Vietnamese Government's data, because he don't understand the VietnameseCucthanh (talk) 10:49, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

That document you link is dated 2020, not 2017, explain that first. Also where and when was it WP:PUBLISHED? It doesn't satisfy the requirements for a WP:RS. Mztourist (talk) 10:57, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

This is Moyar's book quote: "Chapter 17 index: "Communists provided further corroboration of the proximity of their casualty figures to American figures in a postwar disclosure of total losses from 1960 to 1975. During that period, they stated, they lost 849,018 killed plus approximately 232,000 missing and 463,000 wounded. Casualties fluctuated considerably from year to year, but a degree of accuracy can be inferred from the fact that 500,000 was 59 percent of the 849,018 total and that 59 percent of the war's days had passed by the time of Fallaci's conversation with Giap. The killed in action figure comes from "Special Subject 4: The Work of Locating and Recovering the Remains of Martyrs From Now Until 2020 And Later Years," downloaded from the Vietnamese government website datafile on 1 December 2017..." - This is exactly this link I quoted - http://datafile.chinhsachquandoi.gov.vn/Qu%E1%BA%A3n%20l%C3%BD%20ch%E1%BB%89%20%C4%91%E1%BA%A1o/Chuy%C3%AAn%20%C4%91%E1%BB%81%204.doc (Chuyên đề 4 CÔNG TÁC TÌM KIẾM, QUY TẬP HÀI CỐT LIỆT SĨ TỪ NAY ĐẾN NĂM 2020 VÀ NHỮNG NĂM TIẾP THEO. In Vietnamese, "TỪ NAY" = "From now", or the time this document was upload, or 2017)Cucthanh (talk) 11:04, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

I know what Moyar's book says, it was published so can't be changed, unlike your Vietnamese document which was not WP:PUBLISHED and so is not a WP:RS. Your entire argument is based on a flawed document and so has no merit. Mztourist (talk) 11:47, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

You wrong. This link is Vietnamese Government's website. In wikipedia, Government's document IS PUBLISHED and REALIABLE sourceCucthanh (talk) 00:47, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

If it can be changed then its not PUBLISHED. The Vietnamese Government is not a reliable source for its own casualty figures because that is a sensitive issue for them and there is extensive Censorship in Vietnam. Mztourist (talk) 03:03, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

This article is in dire need of more Vietnamese-speaking editors — and fewer reactionary American preachers

As the subject summary says, this article — by some distance the most egregious whitewashing of American imperialism I've ever encountered on Wikipedia — desperately requires input from editors who are

1. fluent readers and writers of the language in which almost all relevant documentation is written;
2. sufficiently worldly as to understand that the history of Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia is not a story about American heroes and Asian villains; and
3. aware that the Cold War is over.

In its current state, this article reads like a Japanese history textbook describing the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere, or a mid-career David Irving book about the Holocaust. The most recent comment on this talk page — right above mine — is somebody who clearly cannot read Vietnamese insisting to a Vietnamese person that the claims in a Vietnamese government source cannot be trusted — despite being unable to read them, as they are written in Vietnamese. Foxmilder (talk) 09:02, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Why don't you read Censorship in Vietnam and a few official Vietnamese histories yourself first, before attacking Users like me who have studied the conflict for decades, live in Vietnam and know just how little the official line has changed from wartime propaganda. Mztourist (talk) 15:13, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

How do you feel about the views of Vietnamese editors, historians, or journalists "who have studied the conflict for decades" and "live in Vietnam"?

You yourself are apparently editing Wikipedia from Vietnam, so you clearly don't believe everything from Vietnam is suspect. Is it your view that no Vietnamese historian should be cited on Wikipedia? Foxmilder (talk) 07:36, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Vietnamese editors who rely solely on Vietnamese government sources about the war are simply parroting state propaganda. Mztourist (talk) 08:42, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

If a Vietnamese editor, relying solely on Vietnamese records, reveals evidence of Vietnamese war crimes, is that also "parroting state propaganda"? Foxmilder (talk) 00:39, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Wouldn't happen unless it was a claimed South Vietnamese war crime. They certainly wouldn't be able to find or publish details of a PAVN or VC war crime. Mztourist (talk) 08:45, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I can see now, rather vividly, why Wikipedia’s coverage of this war is of such poor quality. Who could be bothered answering the constant stream of invective directed towards dissenters by editors who regard the article as their exclusive property?

You win: the article is yours. Drive it like you stole it. Foxmilder (talk) 02:05, 3 February 2024 (UTC)