Talk:Việt Nam Quốc Dân Đảng

Vandalism

Administrator, beware that the page is vandalized by hackers, and should be reverted to its original state as soon as possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wanlei1991 (talk • contribs) 00:45, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Communism

For what it's worth, as I understand it, the word is often treated as a proper noun, and so capitalized. See dictionary.reference.com, where some dictionaries capitalize, others not. I see that WP:MOS is silent on the issue. I'll ping Tony. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 08:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

To me, it's more comfortable as a common noun, like other ideologies and philosophies that aren't derived from a proper noun (such as Christianity is); cf Keynsianism vs. capitalism, and Marxism vs. communism. TONY (talk) 09:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Undiscussed move

AFAIK, this party is rarely referred to as Viet Quoc in modern usage. It's always referred to by its full name or its abbreviation VNQDD. DHN (talk) 20:05, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

The party's homepage, linked in the article, uses "Viet Quoc". See also here, here, and here for examples of current use. VNQDD is a really long and unwieldly abbreviation which I would not use unless it was so common as to be unavoidable. But VNQDD gives you only 226 de-ghosted English language hits on Google -- hardly common usage. "Viet Quoc" gives you tons of hits, but they are not mostly about the party. Kauffner (talk) 03:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

As I mentioned in your talk page, "Viet Quoc" is sometimes used, but probably most often when mentioning it in conjunction with the other competing parties - Viet Minh and Viet Cach - for the sake of parallelism. DHN (talk) 04:40, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

All the history books use the VNQDD or the full name. The current version of the political party is not so relevant since the political party is basically dead for all intents and purposes and probably isn't even registered as a political party in the US or anywhere else. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:33, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

The Vietnamese version of this article uses "Việt Quốc" all the way through, never VNQDD. In common speech, would anyone ever say, "I am a member of VNQDD"? It strikes me as an artifical usage. Kauffner (talk) 05:01, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

It's true that nobody would say "VNQDD" in common speech; they'd say "Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang", which as unwieldy as it looks, is only 5 syllables. Note that "Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang" is a set phrase, as it uses Sino-Vietnamese word order that was often used when Chinese characters had some relevance - if the name was converted to modern terminology, it would be "Dang Quoc Dan Viet Nam", but nobody would use that. DHN (talk) 07:16, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

That's because you changed it. The FA version and the books all use VNQDD. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:04, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I was talking about the Vietnamese language version here. I gave two RS examples of Viet Quoc above. Kauffner (talk) 05:25, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. That article used "Viet Quoc" about less than half of the time, and only used when it's being juxtaposed with another competing party - Viet Minh and Viet Cach. Another unrelated party, Dai Viet Quoc Dan Dang, also happens to have the name "Viet Quoc" in its name, is also discussed in the article. DHN (talk) 05:38, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I only see one link I would consider a reliable source, the news agency. Anyway, I concur that the article's current wording (full name or "VNQDD") is preferred. --Laser brain (talk) 05:42, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

The style books, such as AP or Chicago, all recommend using abbreviations only for common items. The Wikipedia style article has a list of the items considered common enough to warrant abbreviation. It doesn't say you can't abbreviate other things, but making such a list would be pointless if you can abbreviate just any old thing. In the context of Wikipedia articles on Vietnam, "VNQDD" can't be considered a common item. It's not even common as a Google search term. It's pretty much just for this article. Kauffner (talk) 06:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I performed a Google search for "VNQDD" and got more than 7000 results. A Google Book search yielded almost 600 results for VNQDD and 600 for "Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang". A Google Book search for "Viet Quoc" yielded 210 results, most of those referring to the "Dai Viet Quoc Dan Dang", an unrelated party operating concurrently as the VNQDD. DHN (talk) 06:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

7000? You have to deghost by going to the end of the list. It's 422 hits after deghosting. A lot of those are Vietnamese language. For English, its 226 deghosted, like I wrote above. The books results show only that the abbreviation is used specialists. Kauffner (talk) 07:20, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Google only calculates unique hits based on the results of the first 1000 hits, so its unique results will always be under 1000. You can test this by searching common terms like "obama" or "britney spears". In my own reading on the Vietnam War, I can't remember ever seeing the VNQDD referred to as the Viet Quoc. --Groggy Dice T | C 22:54, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

I've semi-protected for seven days. The move protection (sysop only) will need to be restored to infinite when it expires. --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 15:05, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

! 204.152.81.183 (talk) 23:26, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Ideology

This page lists socialism as one of VNQDD's ideologies. I think it's quite wrong. Please provide proofs. If not I demand for a change. Trinh Bao Ngoc

See Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang#Formation and keep in mind that Socialism (Chủ Nghĩa Xã Hội) isn't Communism (Xã hội Chủ Nghĩa).--Amore Mio (talk) 03:42, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

• Amore, they are different but it does not mean that one of them must be applied. Please note that in Vietnamese, Socialism is Chủ nghĩa Xã Hội, while Communism is Chủ nghĩa Cộng Sản --Trinhbaongoc (talk) 23:54, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand the meaning of Socialism. I didn't said that Socialism is Communism. And can you point me what Republicanism is?--Amore Mio (talk) 09:32, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Everything is sourced. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 00:15, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Sources

To my surprise, no Vietnamese sources are cited for this page, which wishes to write honestly and truly about a major political party of Vietnam. The two most important documents by two co-founders of VNQDD:

• VNQDD - Lich Su Dau Tranh Can Dai by Hoang Van Dao, 1970.
• Nguyen Thai Hoc (1902-1930) by Nhuong Tong, 1945.

None of them are cited! Trinh Bao Ngoc

Yen Bai Munity

History of Vietnam says Khởi Nghiã Yên Bái (The Yen Bai Uprising), the history of VNQDD says Tổng Khởi Nghĩa Yên Bái (The Yen Bai General Uprising). "General Uprising" because the attack was launched in a number of provinces in the North Vietnam, not just in Yen Bai. The name "Yen Bai" was used in order to mourn and to honor 13 people, including Nguyen Thai Hoc, who were executed at Yen Bai on June 17, 1930. The translation of "Yen Bai Munity" does not truly reflect the history of Vietnam and the history of VNQDD, and therefore must be replaced. Trinh Bao Ngoc

VNQDD Platform

The aim and general line of the party is to make a national revolution, to use military force to overthrow the feudal colonial system, to set up a democratic republic of Vietnam. At the same time we will help all oppressed nationalities in the work of struggling to achieve independence, in particular such neighboring countries as Laos and Cambodia.[4]

VNQDD - Lich Su Dau Tranh Can Dai, Hoang Van Dao, 1970: “Mục đích và tôn chỉ của Đảng là làm một cuộc cách mạng quốc gia, dùng võ lực đánh đổ chế độ thực dân phong kiến, để lập nên một nước Việt Nam Cộng Hòa. Đồng thời giúp đỡ các dân tộc bị áp bức trong công cuộc tranh đấu giành độc lập của họ đặt biệt là các lân quốc: Ai Lao và Cao Miên.” (

• According to Hoang Van Dao, VNQDD will establish a Republic of Vietnam, NOT Democratic Republic of Vietnam.
• Ideology of VNQDD is based entirely on the above platform, which are Nationalism and Republicanism. No Socialism.
• VNQDD is against any form of dictatorship, not just anti-communism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trinhbaongoc (talk • contribs) 22:07, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
• Suggested translation: The goal and general line of the party are to carry out a national revolution, to overthrow the feudal and colonial regimes by armed force, and to establish a Republic of Vietnam. At the same time we will help all oppressed nationalities with their struggle to regain independence, especially, the neighboring countries: Laos and Cambodia. --Trinhbaongoc (talk) 21:54, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Hoàng Văn Đào was a member of VNQDD, his book isn't WP:RS because it is not a third-party source. I suggest you read WP:SOURCES carefully before making any edit.--Amore Mio (talk) 03:38, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Per above, your books are VNQDD official publications. The books I used are by professors etc. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 03:41, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Amore Mio and YellowMonkey, The neutrality and quality of Wikipedia must be respected and complied with.

• This article is about a Vietnamese political party but no Vietnamese sources cited. That means it seriously lacks the neutrality here.
• When writing history of a country, a minimum requirement for a writer is that he or she must understand fluently the language of that nation. Otherwise, he or she must have an advisor who is able to do so.
• When citing platform of a political party, do we have to use a third party source? I don't think Wikipedia's policy endorses and enforces such practice because it clearly not a logical process.
• Does it make any sense if we must go to a third party source(s) to get that platform, and that it must be written in some foreign language other the than the language of origin, to serve the purpose of neutrality? Where does that third party get that platform?
• Please apply the neutral policy wisely to preserve the Wikipedia's quality and at the same time, to attract more enthusiastic, dedicated, and knowledgeable people to participate in the Wikipedia's community. --Trinhbaongoc (talk) 23:45, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

When citing platform of a political party, we do have to use a third party source, because no politician will tell the bad things about his party and no opponent party will tell the good things about its rival party. What would you think if I used offcial CPV sources that described VNQDD as a "reactionist party,enemy of the people..etc.." in this article?

This article is about a Vietnamese political party but no Vietnamese sources cited. See WP:NONENG. In this case, English sources are available. You should try to find them.

Where does that third party get that platform? Buy that third party and look for the Bibliography section.

When writing history of a country, a minimum requirement for a writer is that he or she must understand fluently the language of that nation. I am a native-speaker of Vietnamese.--Amore Mio (talk) 16:12, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• I recognized you a Vietnamese; however, I know where you're at through your discussion in the ideology section above.--Trinhbaongoc (talk) 00:12, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Abusing multi-account will result in a infinite block, you must read WP:SOCK. Moreover, add an Vietnamese translation of VNQDD final statement to English Wikipedia is totally nonsense. Again, I suggest you stop and read WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:RS, WP:CON before continue edit, if not your edits can't last long.

By the way, what does republicanism means ? Chủ nghĩa cộng hòa?--Amore Mio (talk) 04:38, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

• Amore, try to find out whether or not it's the ideology of VNQDD instead. --Trinhbaongoc (talk) 21:23, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I have read alot of unofficial document about History of Vietnam that published before 1975 but this is the first time I read that one of VNQDD's ideologies was Republicanism/Chủ nghĩa cộng hòa. Can you show me the original Vietnamese word?--Amore Mio (talk) 08:59, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

• Amore, I like your question. A constructive one. You're correct. No documents, including official papers, state out clearly the word republicanism. It's just my conclusion, which is based on:
  • 1. Part of the party platform cited in the book by Hoang Van Dao, a co-founder of VNQDDD.
  • 2. The influence of "The Three Principles of the People by Sun Yat-sen."
  • 3. The French Revolution influence. It has long been agreed that republicanism, especially that of Rousseau, played a central role in the French Revolution as turning point to modern republicanism.
  • 4. The name "Republic of Vietnam".

You may or may not agree with my conclusion; however, its ideology certainly is not "socialism" by any means. I believe some authors have mistaken socialism as the party's ideology from learning that Nguyen Thai Hoc personally "likes" socialism and the French Revolution. In fact, this detail was mentioned by Hoang Van Dao.--Trinhbaongoc (talk) 21:25, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

• Amore, FYI. By Hoang Van Dao:

1) Thời kỳ Quân chính: Quân cách mạng chiếm được đến đâu là lập ngay chính quyền cách mạng quân sự đến đó. 2) Thời kỳ Huấn chính: Tổ chức các cơ cấu dân cử, trực tiếp hoặc gián tiếp giáo hoá dân quen với nếp sống dân chủ về các thể chế mới, v.v… Trong hai thời kỳ này áp dụng nguyên tắc “Dĩ Đảng Trị Quốc.” 3) Thời kỳ Hiến chính: Tổ chức phổ thông đầu phiếu bầu cử Quốc Dân Đại hội, xây dựng Hiến pháp và trao trả chính quyền lại cho toàn dân. --Trinhbaongoc (talk) 21:55, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

• Republic vs. Democracy

Republics are often associated with democracy, which seems natural if one acknowledges the meaning of the expression from which the word "republic" derives (see: res publica). Indeed, the word for "republic" in Greek is dimokratia, the same for "democracy". [Wikipedia]--Trinhbaongoc (talk) 22:04, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

There are many form of Socialism, so It might not mean "chủ nghĩa Xã hội " or something like that. I think that the type of socialism that Nguyen Thai Hoc liked is Democratic socialism or Social democracy. Therefore, English language schoolar has their reason to add socialism into VNQDD ideologies, we Wikipedians should not try to change it or making something new.--Amore Mio (talk) 06:10, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Amore. Here is my taste:

• Per Hoang Van Dao, Nguyen Thai Hoc liked socialism, but that is just his personal interest and does not represent the party's ideology, which is the essence of our discussion.
• Giving the above information of the party's platform, a thorough analysis should conclude that the ideology is closely to democracy. Although there are different forms of socialism, but all of them are based on this definition:
  • Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating public or state ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equality for all individuals, with a fair or egalitarian method of compensation.[Socialism]. Whereas,
  • Democracy is a form of government in which power is held directly or indirectly by citizens under a free electoral system. [Democracy]
• The paper (not a book) "French military policies in the aftermath of the Yên Bay mutiny, 1930: old security dilemmas return to the surface" by Tobias, then a Ph.D. student, referenced in the article, reflects a shallow knowledge and limited understanding about VNQDD and history of Vietnam. It could be due to his Vietnamese language limitation or he just wanted to invent something (munity, socialism) different , or both.
• As I mentioned that VNQDD is against any form of dictatorship, not just communism. As a proof, the last section of this article, Post-independence, has clearly pointed that out.
• As a Wikipedian, I think we should stand-up to make contributions to enhance the quality of it, as the editing policy recommends:
  • one of the great advantages of the wiki model is that incomplete or poorly written first drafts of articles can, over time, evolve into masterpieces through the process of collaborative editing. Thus, even poor articles, if they can be improved, are welcomed. [Editing policy].
  • Wikipedia is the product of thousands of editors' contributions. Everyone has brought something different to the table: researching skills, technical expertise, writing prowess, tidbits of information, or even just a willingness to help. Even the best of our articles should never be considered complete; each new editor may offer new insights about how to further enhance our content.[Editing policy]
• I think you have an advantage here. Being fluent in English and Vietnamese languages plus your enthusiasm, you should stand-up to increase the quality of the article while complying with the Wikipedia policy. It's an attitude that a researcher should possess. You'll need it while doing your master degree and for pursuing Ph.D. later on if you wish.
• I come here to share and to learn through constructive discussions. I won't revert the page until we reach a consensus.--Trinhbaongoc (talk) 20:35, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
• I assume we have reached a consensus!--Trinhbaongoc (talk) 21:25, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Trinhbaongoc, please feel free to edit this article. I quit watching it because of my lacking of English skill.--Amore Mio (talk) 13:48, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Amore, Cao Bá Quát: "Cả thiên hạ có 4 bồ chữ, anh Bá Đạt tôi và ông Nguyễn văn Siêu giữ một bồ, một mình tôi chiếm hai bồ, còn một bồ thì phân phối cho cả thiên hạ." Văn hay chữ tốt như Cao Bá Quát cũng còn thiếu 2 hai bồ chữ (tiếng mẹ đẻ). You are doing just fine. Keep it up, Amore.--Trinhbaongoc (talk) 19:35, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Amore, I found some free time to come back to this article, and just edited something related to what we discussed. Anyway, www.vietquoc.com is a website about VNQDD but not an official site of the party. Wish you're doing well.--Trinhbaongoc (talk) 21:20, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Neutral Point of View

Neutral point of view http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV

The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting verifiable perspectives on a topic as evidenced by reliable sources. The policy requires that where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic each should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being judged as "the truth", in order that the various significant published viewpoints are made accessible to the reader, not just the most popular one. It should also not be asserted that the most popular view, or some sort of intermediate view among the different views, is the correct one to the extent that other views are mentioned only pejoratively. Readers should be allowed to form their own opinions. Policy shortcut: WP:YESPOV

The neutral point of view is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject: it neither endorses nor discourages viewpoints. As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints. The elimination of article content cannot be justified under this policy on the grounds that it is "POV". Article content should clearly describe, represent, and characterize disputes within topics, but without endorsement of any particular point of view. Articles should provide background on who believes what and why, and which view is more popular; detailed articles might also contain evaluations of each viewpoint, but must studiously refrain from taking sides.

Please do not use two accounts Trinhbaongoc, and undo your fourth revert. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 03:12, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

• It's the Wiki software problem.--Trinhbaongoc (talk) 20:42, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

Withdrawing request on balance of strong evidence against moving, produced by Erudy. YeshuaDavid • Talk • 13:30, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang → Việt Nam Quốc Dân Đảng — Correct diacretics, which Wikipedia tends to use unless a common English alternative exists. See Võ Nguyên Giáp for an example. YeshuaDavid • Talk • 00:28, 21 June 2009 (UTC) Survey Oppose I submit that a common English alternative does exist, as evidenced by the sources below.Erudy (talk) 02:40, 21 June 2009 (UTC) Britannica, SarDesai, D. R. Vietnam, past and present. (2005). p50 Ooi, Keat Gin. Southeast Asia: a historical encyclopedia. (2004). p1395 (This source is quite comfortable using Vietnamese diacritics, but does not do so for this term.) Kerkvliet, Bendict and David Marr. Beyond Hanoi. (2004) Bousquet, Gisèle Luce and Pierre Brocheux. Viêt Nam exposé. (2002) p263. Tai, Hue-Tam Ho. The country of memory. (2002) p35 (It should be noted that this scholarly source has a full glossary of Vietnamese terms, replete with all diacritics (p233). However, in the body of the work, there are no diacritics used. This is a strong indication that although the author had recourse to the technical means of publishing a work with diacritics, as well as the knowledge to do so, the author made an editorial decision to remove them.) "Ending innocence, murdering for ‘freedom’". University of Berkley Vietnamese Student Association Newsletter (2007) p5 (Admittably a less reliable source, but again, this publication knows how to use diacritics, yet the author of this work avoided them in this case.) VNQDD homepage (Once again, this website is quite capable of using diacritics...the Vietnamese section is full of them, yet in the English section they are discarded). Withdrawing request; that's a lot of very good evidemnce. YeshuaDavid • Talk • 13:30, 21 June 2009 (UTC) Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved per request. Socks of community banned user ignored. Favonian (talk) 06:02, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

---

Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang → Việt Nam Quốc Dân Đảng – Per WP:Reliable sources. The VNQDĐ (Vietnam Nationalist Party 1927) was a party modelled on China's Kuomintang. The difference between "D" and "Đ" is important for ease of reading; it is the difference between [zan] "people" and [daŋ] "party". The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Vietnam War hardback edition, and other sources equipped with full fonts, give this spelling. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:40, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Erudy gave a convincing list of eight sources the last time this issue came up, which you can see in the previous section. 103.250.234.97 (talk) 03:01, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

• Support. This term is not English and has not been nativized and, thus, should retain diacritics as is typical at Wikipedia. While other sources have technical limitations or style manuals that proscribe certain diacritics, Wikipedia does not. For those readers alarmed by unusual typography, the diacritics can be "read through". i.e., ignored. (cf. Ógra Fianna Fáil, Džemijet, Frenti-Mudança, Front Algérie Française). However, if others prefer an English name, try Vietnamese Nationalist Party. —  AjaxSmack  22:00, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
  • I would concur with "Vietnamese Nationalist Party". Britannica opens "Viet Nam Quoc Dan Dang (VNQDD), English Vietnamese Nationalist Party" (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/628333/Viet-Nam-Quoc-Dan-Dang-VNQDD). Epaminondas of Thebes (talk) 13:48, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Two different VNQDD parties

There were two different VNQDD parties which used exactly the same name. One founded in 1924 by Phan Boi Chau in Canton with support from Chinese Kuomintang members, and another founded in 1927 in Hanoi.

http://books.google.com/books?id=lu_TB0X8B4YC&pg=PA258&lpg=PA258&dq=vietnamese+kuomintang&source=bl&ots=ZB1JJqZgJK&sig=2o1k1TyRQOuwTT57zpCXy1QkhVU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Opr3U-ygB8jmoATh1IHwBg&ved=0CE4Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=vietnamese%20kuomintang&f=false

20:28, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Right-wing?

This article says the party's political position is centre-right to right-wing yet it also says the party's ideology is democratic socialism. Is anyone else confused? Charles Essie (talk) 14:47, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

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Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion

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