Talk:Varsity team

Requested move 2 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (closed by non-admin page mover) * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 19:48, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

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• Varsity team → Varsity
• Varsity → Varsity (disambiguation)

– The word "varsity" refers to sports teams, matches, or competitions relating to a university according to its dictionary definition (see Oxford, Cambridge, Dictionary.com, and Collins), with North American English generally using the word to refer to teams and British English generally using the term to refer to a match or competition. As the page "Varsity team" best addresses this definition it should be moved to "Varsity" per Wikipedia:Primary topics with respect to usage, and also because it talks about varsity outside of reference to a team. The page currently called "Varsity" is a disambiguation page and and relates to secondary, non-dictionary definitions of the word, this would be best moved to "Varsity (disambiguation)". In addition the page "Varsity match" doesn't describe, anywhere near in depth what this are, just lists them across UK and Ireland, this page should therefore be moved to "List of British and Irish varsities" in line with other list articles as it better describes the page. Mn1548 (talk) 13:24, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Note: the move request at Talk:Varsity#Requested move 2 July 2023 conflicted with this proposal, so the two have been combined. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 14:09, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Oppose Varsity does not work in British English while Varsity team does so, per WP:COMMONALITY's instruction to "Use universally accepted terms rather than those less widely distributed, especially in titles", Varsity team is preferable. Robminchin (talk) 23:47, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Comments copied from discussion at WP:RMTR up to 12:44, 2 July 2023 (UTC):

• This is the main page on the subject. The previous page called "Varsity" has been moved to Varsity (disambiguation) as it was a disambiguation page. Mn1548 (talk) 17:06, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
  • The disambiguation page was moved back. There is no policy against having disambiguation pages that don't include "(disambiguation)" in their titles. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 02:17, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
    • @BarrelProof: True, there is not, but generally speaking when "topic x" has an article about it that article is called "topic x" and the page that links to similar stuff is called "topic x (disambiguation)" - that's what's going on here. The current article "Varsity" is a disambiguation page, where as the article talking about the dictionary definition of varsity is titled "Varsity team", a titles which is only applicable to the North American English definition of the word, even though it talks about the British English definition in its first section (even before I starting editing the page), as well as information about Dutch and South African varsities, also based on the British English definition. Said page is also currently tagged with "not representing a world view", and having a North American English title doesn't help. The title "Varsity" is inclusive of both British and North American English definitions. Which is why I moved "Varsity" to "Varsity (disambiguation)" to free up the title to move "Varsity team" to "Varsity". Mn1548 (talk) 15:09, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
      • I don't find that explanation very understandable. If there is a different meaning in different places, then the title seems ambiguous. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 00:10, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
        • @BarrelProof: Exactly, the article that talks about varsity in both British and North American English shouldn't have a North American English title. A simpler title of "Varsity" is inclusive of both definitions. For that to happen the disambiguation page needs a name change aswell, as the disambiguation page is currently called "Varsity". Mn1548 (talk) 08:10, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
          • I'm not objecting, but this sounds potentially controversial (WP:PCM), so a full WP:RM might be a good idea. -Kj cheetham (talk) 09:56, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
            • That's fair enough, I shall put in a move request on the relevant talk pages.Mn1548 (talk) 12:44, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support Can't really see any other equivalent primary topics here. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 10:05, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Varsity is a general term pertaining to universities, and can also include varsity match and others. Also, in British English it is incorrect to give "varsity" as a standalone term, particularly for a team. There is zero reason to alter the longstanding status quo on this, and WP:RETAIN should apply if nothing else.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:47, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per Amakuru. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:55, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
• Comment I don't understand @Amakuru: argument here as it sounds like an argument FOR the move. The fact that, to quote, "varsity is a general term pertaining to universities", it makes no sense to have the article which talk about varsity in the context of a university to have a more specific title such as "Varsity team" when it is a general term, and the fact that you have said it includes varsity matchs only adds to that argument. Furthermore, you have said that in British English, the term "varsity" is incorrect to be applied to a team (which I agree with as I never heard the phrase "varsity team" in the UK). With this being the case, it makes zero sence for an article with a subsection called "Varsity in the United Kingdom" (as its first subsection nonetheless) along with sections about other countries who use the British English definition, to be called "Varsity team" because as you have pointed out, "In British English it is incorrect to give "varsity" as a standalone term, particularly for a team." Mn1548 (talk) 16:12, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
• Strong oppose per Amakuru. "Varsity" is used as an adjective for university stuff. And the word "varsity" itself has other uses per the disambiguation page. Thus the proposal makes "varsity team" topic unintelligible. The proposal at varsity match uses "varsity" as the synonym of "varsity match" which is at cross purposes with this proposal that makes "varsity" the synonym of "varsity team", making everything as clear as mud -- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 22:23, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

• Comment SEE ALSO an interrelated move request at Talk:Varsity match#Requested move 2 July 2023 -- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 22:12, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose this is a mainly North American article, we have an article on the mostly British Varsity match, and so Varsity is a plausible search term for both, as well as all the other things listed on the dab page. No primary topic between these. Joseph2302 (talk) 08:41, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

  This is a good alternative actually. Anything related to UK varsity could easily be moved to Varsity match. And the minimal South African and Dutch info put on Varsity or a "see also" on Varsity match. Leaving this page only talking about varsity teams and not varsity in general. Mn1548 (talk) 12:42, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

• Weak oppose the team has 4,740 views but Operation Varsity has 6,589, University has 25,052 and the restaurant has 1,226[[1]]. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:12, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.