Talk:Turkish people/Archive 14

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Turkicafication

Can you guys stop edit waring? Anyways, what exactly do "citizens of Turkey" have to do with "Turkish people"? AcidSnow (talk) 18:45, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

EtienneDolet and the IP user(s) (88.251.100.213 and 78.181.134.3) I could easily go report you guys for breaking 3RR since you both reverted more than 4 times. Doing that would cause you guys to be blocked for 24 hours or mabye even more. But I won't, ONLY if you guys try to come to a conclusion on the talk page. AcidSnow (talk) 19:28, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Sure, @88.251.100.213: and @8.181.134.3:, why do you think the Armenian Genocide is one sided biased Armenian propaganda? Also, what do you mean by saying "beware of wolves dressed as sheep"? I am always willing to discuss and come to a conclusion. Étienne Dolet (talk) 20:06, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

I belive he was refering to you since you are a "Gerogrian" and live in Instanbul. The "French" is probably another editor that reverted him. But there's not need to insult people.

Anyways, I don't see the point of having that section in the article since this article is about "Turkish people" and not "citzens of Turkey". Nor do I belive the actions of a few represents the thoughts and actions of the whole. Things like that should be in the history of Turkey and not here. The Holocaust is only briefly mentioned in the German page but that's only because it's discussing Jews of German decent in that section. It does not even mention the other religious groups like the Jehovah Witness or even ethnic groups like Gypsis, Poles and other Slavs. Why? Because their not "ethnic Germans". AcidSnow (talk) 20:15, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Please stop with these conjectures about my personal life. None of those IP addresses ever said that I live in Istanbul. That is entirely your assumption. The "French" was in reference to me since my username is named after the French scholar Étienne Dolet. Once again, all these baseless assumptions of my ethnic background being Armenian needs to stop. What's even worse is that these assumptions are often used to discredit my edits. These conjectures about my personal life has been ongoing for quite some time. It continues to embarrass me in front of the Wikipedia community. I don't want to talk about this any further.

Turkification is a significant process in the formulation of a Turkish identity. I see it more relevant here than in any other article. There needs to be a historiographical backdrop to the widely accepted fact that the Turkish genetic makeup today is mostly an admixture of indigenous populations. A once entirely Christian landmass turned majority Turkic Muslim in a short amount of time. If it weren't for Turkification, how else could we explain this? How can a group of 400 Turkic horsemen that arrived from the steppes of Central Asia manage to become the majority of the population of the Ottoman Empire and today's Turkey? The Devsirme, Janissaries, and Kul are just some of the components of this process. This social engineering project lasted until the 19th and 20th century when it became increasingly nationalist and took a violent turn. This led to the formulation of a new brand of Turkish people who incorporated non-Turkish minorities into the definition of the Turkish people we know today. If we don't highlight these events in this article, I don't see how the reader would be able to comprehend the full history of Turkish people in their entirety. Otherwise, there will be numerous unfilled gaps which to me seems rather problematic. Étienne Dolet (talk) 22:33, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Acid's doubts. That addition/section is clearly problematic and needs to be a discussion. Beside, Dolet's examples are make no sense. There is no certain evidence for that numbers. I don't know are you aware or not but, your claims are only can consider as a "original research."Yagmurlukorfez (talk) 00:54, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Um, what "numbers" are you referring to? I've made no mention of "numbers" in my response. There's no original research either. Have you not seen the sources?

• Akçam, Taner (2012). The Young Turks' crime against humanity: the Armenian genocide and ethnic cleansing in the Ottoman Empire. Princeton, N.J.: Princeton University Press. p. 29. ISBN 0691153337.
• Bjornlund, Matthias (March 2008). "The 1914 cleansing of Aegean Greeks as a case of violent Turkification". Journal of Genocide Research. 10 (1). Taylor & Francis: 41–57. doi:10.1080/14623520701850286. ISSN 1462-3528. In 1914, the aim of Turkification was not to exterminate but to expel as many Greeks of the Aegean region as possible as not only a "security measure," but as an extension of the policy of economic and cultural boycott, while at the same time creating living space for the muhadjirs that had been driven out of their homes under equally brutal circumstances.
• Akçam, Taner (2005). From Empire to Republic: Turkish Nationalism and the Armenian Genocide. London: Zed Books. p. 115. ISBN 9781842775271. ...the initial stages of the Turkification of the Empire, which affected by attacks on its very heterogeneous structure, thereby ushering in a relentless process of ethnic cleansing that eventually, through the exigencies and opportunities of the First World War, culminated in the Armenian Genocide.
• Rummel, Rudolph J. (1996). Death By Government. Transaction Publishers. p. 235. ISBN 9781412821292. Through this genocide and the forced deportation of the Greeks, the nationalists completed the Young Turk's program-the Turkification of Turkey and the elimination of a pretext for Great Power meddling.
• J.M. Winter, ed. (2003). America and the Armenian Genocide of 1915. New York: Cambridge University Press. p. 60. ISBN 9780511163821. The devising of a scheme of a correlative Turkification of the Empire, or what was left of it, included the cardinal goal of the liquidation of that Empire's residual non-Turkish elements. Given their numbers, their concentration in geo-strategic locations, and the troublesome legacy of the Armenian Question, the Armenians were targeted as the prime object for such liquidation.

The sentence is cited by these sources and they're as solid as they can get. So there's no question of original research here. Étienne Dolet (talk) 01:53, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Point is, the article about "Turkish people". Not about "Turkicafication" policy of Anatolia or another place. I agree Acid with that. That section is seems extremely irrelevant to me.Yagmurlukorfez (talk) 08:02, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Turkifying a non-Turkish population is more relevant here than in any other article. A loss of identity on one side to a acquirement of a new Turkish identity on another. As many societies evolve, so do its people. It'll be wrong to neglect such an important part of the transformation of Turkish people in this way. Étienne Dolet (talk) 18:44, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

IP user accueses me being an Armenian who pretends to be as Turk with Geogian-origin. To IP user: I am the one who applied for GA nomination of Turkey and who edited it greatly. Also I've edited and improved lots of Turkey related articles. What a bloody fascism that you are doing. And by the way, Turkification is a major thing is Turkish people article. That Turkish people that you talk about in here were once Armenian,Albanian,Bosnian,Circassian,Georgian etc. elmasmelih 19:03, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

My bad EtienneDolet. I got you mixed up with Elmasmelih, whom on their user page list that they are "Georgian" and live Istanbul. This was a simple mistake so there's no need to react at me in such a way. AcidSnow (talk) 18:55, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Christians

No, Jobas I did read the articles. Your better off coming to the talk page instead of making baseless accusations and edit warring. AcidSnow (talk) 18:55, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

"it's not true you don't even read the artcale it's about turksih muslim who convert to christianity these are not Armenians these are trukish.", what on earth are you talking about? For starters, I did read the articles. In fact, every single one of them clearly states that they are referring to the "Citizens of Turkey" and not "ethnic Turkish people". Let alone does being a "Turk" make you "Turkish"; which are two different things. For example:

Some 35,000 Turks converted from Islam to Christianity last year,with most joining evangelical congregations the newspaper, "Milliet," reports. If true, this would amount to a mass movement, considering Christians make up only 0.2 percent of Turkey's 68 million population. "This is news to me," said the Rev. Holger Nollmann, the German Protestant pastor in Istanbul.

However, Ihsan Ozbek, president of the Council of Independent Protestant congregations, said more and more Turks were turning toward Christianity. "However, given the Islamic environment in which we live, most Turks coming to our congregations do not wish to make waves."

The German protestant news service Idea reported most converts are descendants of Orthodox Christians who ostensibly became Muslims to avoid being killed in Turkey's 1914-22 genocide of its Armenian minority.

So can you please explain to me were they state that these people are "ethnic Turkish people" and that none are Armenians? Also how being Muslim some how make you "Turkish"? AcidSnow (talk) 20:07, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

What about this: Example: or [http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkish-protestants-highlight-problems.aspx?pageID=238&nid=39133 Turkish Protestants highlight problems]

Protestant Christians, including Turks, Azeris, Afghans, Kurds and Iranians, open a house-church in the eastern province of Van. The group's religious leader says there are more than 100 rented places of worship all across Turkey

or here Turkish Protestants still face "long path" to religious freedom

In an ENI interview, Tanyar said Protestants differed from Turkey's Armenian and Greek Orthodox Christians, 'since most came from recent Muslim Turkish backgrounds, rather than from ethnic minorities, and did not have historic claims to churches and properties in the country.

since according to you there is a difference between Turkish and turks what about here the Turkish Protestant community:

A leader of the Turkish Protestant community, Rev. Behnan Konutgan, recently recorded cases of violence against church property and the physical harassment of church members while a noted Turkish sociologist of religion, Ali Carkoğlu, has argued that no non-Muslim religious gathering in Turkey is completely risk free

No mention in this source that these Turks are "Armenian", What you doing is playing with the words Turk or Turks most often refers to the Turkish people or Turkic people. Here for Example Deals with the various ethnic groups that have turned to Protestant, These Turks, Azeris, Afghans, Kurds and Iranians, are Citizens of Turkey who convert to protestant church.--Jobas (talk) 21:41, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Once again, Jobas, "Turk" and Turkish" are two different things. A "Turk" is anyone who speaks a "Turkic language". A "Turkish", however, is one who speak "Turkish" which is a language belonging to the "Turkic family". In fact, anyone can be "Turkish" legally if they are a citizen of Turkey, hence why all of these source state them as such. As for your "Turkish Protestant community leader" article (which is the only article that even remotely supports your revert), the man that was sadly murdered was an Italian named "Luigi Padovese". Which is not surprising since most of the Christans in Turkey are not "Turkish" by ethnicity but rather "nationality". In fact, of the 200,000 Christians in Turkey,[1] 170,000 of them are Armenian.[2] Which isn't surprising since most of the people converting are them. The vast majority of the rest of the Christians in Turkey are the Greeks and Assyrians that stayed in Turkey.[3][4] Though, a very very very small amount could actually be Turkish by ethnicity. Though by this point, there's no point in having a few converts listed in the Infobox. Though this could be add instead to the "Religion" section. Adding it anywhere else is simply WP:UNDUEWEIGHT. AcidSnow (talk) 23:05, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Once again you play with the words I gave you sources using the word Turkish christians or Protestant as here

In an ENI interview, Tanyar said Protestants differed from Turkey's Armenian and Greek Orthodox Christians, 'since most came from recent Muslim Turkish backgrounds, rather than from ethnic minorities, and did not have historic claims to churches and properties in the country.

That mean the protestant coummunity in Turkey is mostly from recent Muslim Turkish backgrounds and the protestant in Turkey account 80,000 that's not a very very very small number here.

No one claims that most of the christians in Turkey are from Turkish people, everyone know they belong to ethnic minorities. But Protestants differed from Turkey's Armenian and Greek Orthodox Christians, since most came from recent Muslim Turkish backgrounds. protestant in Turkey account 80,000.

As for he man that was sadly murdered was an Italian named "Luigi Padovese" he is a Catholic priest belong to the Catholic church, and has nothing to do with the Turkish Protestant community leader, the name of Turkish Protestant community is Behnan Konutgan which is a Turkish name and the name of president of the Council of Independent Protestant congregations Ihsan Ozbek it's a turkish name, please read the whole sources. Christianity it's also a religon across Turkish people, and i gave it you at least three sources using "Turkish protestant" not turk christians.-- Jobas (talk) 23:49, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Jobas, once again, no. Only one of your sources actually made a distinction between actual "Turkish people" and the "Citizens of Turkey". Your most recent source, the "PewFourm", also fails to do that. Why? Because nowhere in the PDF does it state that the 80,000 Protestants in Turkey are "mostly from recent Muslim Turkish background". In fact, the man you just quoted states that less than 4,000 of their converts are "Turkish" by ethnicity (are you reading your own "sources" o.0?). As I stated earlier, this is a very very very small amount. Even your own previous source states that the majority of the converts to Protestantism are, once again the Armenians. As you can see, there's no point in having a few converts listed in the Infobox. Though, this could be add instead to the "Religion" section. Adding it anywhere else is simply WP:UNDUEWEIGHT.

Anyways, what on earth do other Turkic groups have to do with this? The only Turkic group that predominately practice Christianity are the Gagauz people and the Chuvash people. They too only represent a tiny fraction of the whole Turkic peoples. AcidSnow (talk) 00:54, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Again and agian the sources are about Turkish people not citizens of Turkey. Oh and yes i'm reading my sources man Tanyar, whose association includes about 4,000 members in 33 churches that's not mean there are only less than 4,000' of their converts are "Turkish" by ethnicity becouse there many other protestant associations. (are you understanding the "sources" o.0?)

Gagauz people account 15,000 in Turkey and the Chuvash people account 2 million people around the world it;s not very very very small numbers?. I'm going to add for now in Religion section In Bulgaria there are 10,000 Turkish Christian here, there are also small Turkish Cypriot Protestants and Anglicans here, Gagauz people who are Turkic group account 240,000.

And let's say it's only 4,000 Turksih christian which is not a "very" "very" small number, why we can't adding christianity as minority religion in the Infobox where in the same the time you didn't removed Judaism which is a ethnoreligious group and the jews in turkey are only Citizens of Turkey and they don't belong to the turkish people.

In the end there is a relatively small minority of Turkish converts to Christianity. so nothing worng listed chrisitnaity in the Infobox.--Jobas (talk) 10:08, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about? Where exactly did I say that population of the Gagauz people and the Chuvash people was "small" number? What I did say, however, was that they represent a tiny fraction. This is true since they both combined represent less than 1% of the whole Turkic peoples. Can you please explain how this not a very very very small fraction? While your at it, please don't put words in my mouth. More importantly, this has nothing to do with the Turkish People which are a completely different ethnic group.

"that's not mean there are only less than 4,000' of their converts are "Turkish" by ethnicity becouse there many other protestant associations.", Actually yes, it does mean as such. Why? Because the "Turkish Association of Protestant Church" is largest organaztion in Turkey and represents the vast majority of the Protestant Church's in Turkey.[5] In fact, read this:

The number of local Protestants is about 4000-5000. These are not foreigners, they are local people

As for the rest and more preciously, "the foreigners" are once again the Armenians. In fact, they represent the majority of the people converting. As you can see, if all of the 4,000 local converts were Turkish, they would count for less than 0.00006% of the whole population. As anyone can, that is a very very very very small fraction.

As for the Turkish Jews, you do realize ethnicity has nothing to do with whither one is Jewish? There are Ethiopian Jews, Lemba people Jews, Arab Jews, and even Indian Jews. More importantly, the Jews in Turkish consider themselves to be Turkish and have chosen to remain in Turkey. As such, they obviously belong to this page.

As anyone can see, there's no point in having a few converts which account for less than .0002% of the whole population listed in the Infobox. Though, this could be add instead to the "Religion" section. Adding it anywhere else is simply WP:UNDUEWEIGHT and pointless. Since this discussion is going nowhere, I have decided to get an admin and a third party to give their opinions on this.. AcidSnow (talk) 17:52, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

AcidSnow asked me to have a look. Can someone please summarize in a sentence or two what the issue is about? Is there difficulty differentiating between ethnic Turks and Turkish citizens in the figures/numbers, or perhaps something else? Middayexpress (talk) 18:06, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes. I'm confused also. My first instinct is to suggest and RfC. Dougweller (talk) 18:21, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Well Midday, there are several hundreds of thousands of Turkish citizens that are Christians. However, of those that are Christian, very few are actually Turkish by ethnicity. As of now, they account for less than .0002% of the whole Turkish Population. Hence why I removed it and recommended that could be added to the "Religion" Section. Anywhere else is simply WP:UNDUEWEIGHT. The rest of the Christians are mostly the Armenians, Greeks, and the Assyrians minorities of Turkey. AcidSnow (talk) 18:14, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I see. The number of Christian adherents who are ethnic Turks should indeed not be confused with the number of Christians adherents who are just citizens of Turkey, as they are not necessarily the same. Middayexpress (talk) 18:26, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Jewish are an ethnoreligious group, and it's a theory academically acceptable, That's mean Jewish in Turkey are not ethnic Turks they are just citizens of Turkey, maybe you don't know alot about jewish, It is rare that the Jews considered themselves ethnically non-Jewish, for them, Turkish is a citizenship and culture but not a race or ethnic (the same is go for Armenians, Greeks, and the Assyrians). While there are Christian adherents who are ethnic Turks. it's not a simply WP:UNDUEWEIGHT. They exist even if in small numbers. They are porotestant Turkish community form ethnic Turks and they are different from other christian communities as the Armenians, Greeks, and the Assyrians who are citizens of Turkey, You deleted without discussing Christianity from the Infobox, even there are small minority of Turkish converts to Christianity, and these Christian adherents are ethnic Turks and they are not Armenians, Greeks, and the Assyrians christians.--Jobas (talk) 21:28, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

*Sigh*, can you please stop with the false accusations and assumption about me. Honestly it's just getting annoying. Anyways, the Jews in Turkey don't consider themselves to be "Jewish" in the sense of an Ethnic Group but rather as a religious group. Turkish Jews consider themselves to be of Turkish ethnicity as do the Turkish Muslims.[6][7][8][9] Even the Turkish Jews in Israel consider themselves to be Turkish and part of the Turkish diaspora. They are also tying to retain their Turkish culture instead of that of the Israeli.[10][11] Maybe your the one the one who does not know much (a rhetorical question)? As anyone can see, they are Turkish and view themselves as such.

The Turkish Christians are a very tiny minority, .0002% to be exact. There's simply nowhere to dispute this. It's been long established that we are discussing ethnic Turkish people and not the Armenians or any of the other Christian group in Turkey. Sadly I can't say the same about most of your "sources". Your also very wrong in stating that the Turkish, Greeks, and the Armenians are not Ethnic Groups. How you came up with something as crazy as that I truly don't know. AcidSnow (talk) 22:32, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• Sigh*′, Jewish are an ethnoreligious group, in you'r sources the word of turkish jews' come as the word of turkish armenians as here, here Which as you know Armenians are not Turkish ethnic.

And please please can you even read what i'm writing? When i said that Armenians or any of the other Christian group in Turkey (as Greeks, and the Assyrian) are ethnic Turkish? My sources befor were about Turkish protestant from muslim and Turkish bakground! I never considered the Greeks, and the Armenians as Turkish ethnic, I'm awar that these Greeks and Armenians are citizens of Turkey, My discussing was about the Christian adherents are ethnic Turkish. please read what i'm writing. And really show please when i stated that the Turkish, Greeks, and the Armenians are not Ethnic Groups are really serious?. can you show please when i stated this? How you came up with something as crazy as that I truly don't know please read what other writing befor making fun!

please don't put words in my mouth I Know that Christians who are Armenians, Greeks, and the Assyrians are not ethnic Turkish, but they are citizens of Turkey which not the same, and I know that Turkish, Greeks, and the Armenians are Ethnic Groups, i never stated that they are not Ethnic Groups. My dissucsing was only that You deleted without discussing Christianity from the Infobox, even there are small minority of ethnic Turkish converts to Christianity, these christians most of them belong to the portestant community, so i didn't stated any thing about Armenians, Greeks, and the Assyrians.--Jobas (talk) 23:57, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

You honestly must be joking at this point. You literally stated that the Turkish people, the Greeks, the Assyrians, and the Armenians were not ethnic groups. In fact, I will quote you since there's no reason for me to lie when everyone can see what you have written here: "Turkish is a citizenship and culture but not a race or ethnic (the same is go for Armenians, Greeks, and the Assyrians)." As anyone can see you did make such crazy statement.

Anyways, where did I say you were talking about the Armenians let alone any of the other Christian groups in Turkey? What I did state was that almost every single on3 of your sources do. This is the last warning I am going to give you for you to stop you annoying attacks against me. If not, I won't hesitate to report you. As I was saying, of the six "sources" you provided" (these:[12][13][14][15][16]) only one (this one:[17]) makes the distinction between the "Turkish ethnic group" and that of the "Citizens of Turkey" and "Turkic peoples". As anyone can see I have yet to lie let alone do any other form of attacks against anyone. Sadly, I can't say the same about you since you have been doing it thought this dispute.

The irony in my decision to comply to many of your request is just shocking. Seeing how every time I ask you to present evidence against me you simply just ignore it and act like it never happened. Why? Because there's nothing that could even remotely supports your assumptions or persoanl attacks. As I stated earlier, I am giving you one last warning for you to stop this once and for all.

As for the Jews in Turkey, you entirely ignored/missed the point of my reply on them. Anyways, as I have stated many times already, the vast majority of the Christians in Turkey belong to the nations ethnic minorities and not the Turkish ethnic group. In fact, there's not even a visible amount of Turkish people who even practice Christianity to begin with. This is not my belief but rather how it is in the real world. AcidSnow (talk) 16:51, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

1.You are the one who making a personal attacks, 2. you just cut my statement to make my statment "crazy". you cut an important word which is for them becouse it's was about Jewish of Turkey. please next time try to read the whole statment!!!

when i said "Turkish is a citizenship and culture but not a race or ethnic (the same is go for Armenians, Greeks, and the Assyrians)."]": it's was about that Turkish Jewish being Turkish for them is't only a citizenship and it's a cultular thing more than ethnic thing as go for Armenians, Greeks, and the Assyrians who had Turkish citizenship for them being turkish-Armenian or turkish-greek it's a citizenship and dosen't mean they belong to the turkish race or ethnic and they don't feel they are part of Turksih race. What i wanted to said is Jewish of turkey belong to nations ethnic minority and they are Turkish citizenship and and they are not part of the Turkish ethnic group. for them when they feel Turkish it's a cultural thing than ethnic thing, becouse Jewish are an ethnoreligious group. that's dosent mean i deny there are a Turkish or Greek ethnic of course there are Turkish ethnic groupe. Everyone can see who lies here:

Jewish are an ethnoreligious group, and it's a theory academically acceptable, 'That's mean Jewish in Turkey are not ethnic Turks they are just citizens of Turkey, maybe you don't know alot about jewish, It is rare that the Jews considered themselves ethnically non-Jewish, for them (**-For jewish) (**-when they say we are Turkish-Jewish) Turkish is a citizenship and culture but not a race or ethnic (the same is go for Armenians, Greeks, and the Assyrians - (**-who live in Turkey and are Turkish citizens)). While there are Christian adherents who are ethnic Turks. it's not a simply WP:UNDUEWEIGHT. They exist even if in small numbers. They are porotestant Turkish community form ethnic Turks and they are different from other christian communities as the Armenians, Greeks, and the Assyrians who are citizens of Turkey, You deleted without discussing Christianity from the Infobox, even there are small minority of Turkish converts to Christianity, and these Christian adherents are ethnic Turks and they are not Armenians, Greeks, and the Assyrians christians.--Jobas (talk) 21:28, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Anyways, as I have stated many 10000 time already, i know and i'm aware that the vast majority of the Christians in Turkey belong to the nations ethnic minorities and not the Turkish ethnic group. But in same time there are small Christians protestant minority belong to the turkish ethnic group. and their numbers it's not so small and or not visible. This is not my belief but rather how it is in the real world.

I'm aware about the distinction between the "Turkish ethnic group" and that of the "Citizens of Turkey" and "Turkic peoples". the sources were about turkish christians. not about Citizens of Turkey who belong to the Armenians, Greeks, and the Assyrians christians group.

i gave a scources about Turkish Chrisitan community who are belong to the "Turkish ethnic group" who belong to proestant churchs these are not only "Citizens of Turkey". and you just ignoring it and attacking me in ironic way. In an ENI interview, Tanyar said Protestants differed from Turkey's Armenian and Greek Orthodox Christians, since most came from recent Muslim Turkish backgrounds, rather than from ethnic minorities, and did not have historic claims to churches and properties in the country. and Protestant Christians, including Turks, Azeris, Afghans, Kurds and Iranians, open a house-church in the eastern province of Van and and here here:

The Association of Protestant Churches of Turkey was founded in 1989 to provide advocacy and support for the independent evangelical churches that have grown up over the past 30 years. Most members of these churches were formerly Muslims or atheists. They are known as Protestants because there is no Turkish word for evangelical It is considered a disgrace if a Turk leaves Islam for Christianity, and Muslims who become Christians face enormous pressures. Religious pluralism is widely viewed as a threat to Islam and "national unity", and many erroneously believe that to be a real Turk one must be a Muslim.

and here here

What confuse us here is the existence of Turkish protestants. When the Turksih Repulic was founded, there were Turks (who were Muslims) and non-Muslims (Greek, Armenians, Jewish they were an ethnic group, they spoke differently). The evangelicans are Turks exacly like us who are Chrisitans. [That's why] there's so much hostility toward missionaries. A greek can't turn a Turk into Greekness, But a protestant turn turks in christians.

And i gaved you a widly accadimic scources caliams that jewish are ethnoreligious group that's mean Jewish of Turkey belong to the jewish people and not for the Turksih ethnic group and you also ignored it also and you even cut my statement the one about Jewish of Turkey to make it me dening that there are Turkish ethnic so funny. --Jobas (talk) 17:22, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I had assumed you would stop this nonsense but I was wrong. Anyways, why exactly did you changes your original quote? I never changed anything. I did, however, remove the part were your talking about the Jews in Turkey since that was not needed. Your sentence was also a "run on" so once again there was no need to include the other pointless stuff. The whole sentence actually goes as such:

"That's mean Jewish in Turkey are not ethnic Turks they are just citizens of Turkey, maybe you don't know alot about jewish, It is rare that the Jews considered themselves ethnically non-Jewish, for them, Turkish is a citizenship and culture but not a race or ethnic (the same is go for Armenians, Greeks, and the Assyrians).

As anyone can see you did state that the Greeks, the Turkish, and the Armenians are not ethnic groups so where exactly did I lie? You even drastically changed to make it seem like I did. Anyways, since this discussion is going nowhere have I have request of an RFC on this. AcidSnow (talk) 19:14, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

What you talking about? you still cutting the statement And focus on three words out of context , you removed the jewish from the statment to make my comment non-sense. i'm sure you understood my point it's clear that when i said (same is go for Armenians, Greeks, and the Assyrians) i was talking about Armenians, Greeks, and the Assyrians citizins of Turkey that even they have Turkish citizenship they don't feel and considered as Turkish ethnic, For them being Turkish it's citizeship. you just cutting what i'm saying.

I add these (**-) (pointless stuff) to make my point clear and to help you to understanding my point which is very clear that i didn't deny that there is Turkish or Armenian or Greek ethnic what you doning is only ocus on three words out of context. when i said it's same is go for Armenians, Greeks, and the Assyrians) was very clear i talking about Armeanians-Turkish, Greeks of Turkey as Jewish-Turksih that they are citizins of Turkey and they are not Turkish ethnic Group, For these group feeling Turkish it's mean citizenship not belonging to Turkish ethnic. Becouse you claimed that Jewish of Turkey they are ethnic Jewish which is totally worng. It's not my problem i don't want to understand my point.-- Jobas (talk) 19:38, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Your joking right? I copied and pasted your whole statement and you're still accusing me of cutting stuff out? I even provided you with a diff and your still say this.*Sigh*.

Anyways and more importantly, being Turkish is something much more than being citizen of the country for them. As I stated previously the Jews in Turkey don't consider themselves to be "Jewish" in the sense of an Ethnic Group but rather as a religious group. Turkish Jews consider themselves to be of Turkish ethnicity as do the Turkish Muslims, Christians, and those that are irreligious.[18][19][20][21] Even the Turkish Jews in Israel consider themselves to be Turkish and part of the Turkish diaspora. They are also tying to retain their Turkish culture instead of that of the Israeli.[22][23] As anyone can see, they are Turkish and view themselves as such. You, however, have brought nothing to dispute other than your own claim that the Jews in Turkey believe that they are not Turkish; which is far from reality. Such claims are not accepted here as they are WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH.

In the end, it does not even matter. If you want to discuss Turkish Jews then leave it at there population which is what really matters. I am also going to ask you to stop imitating me since it's getting very annoying. AcidSnow (talk) 19:59, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Jewish are ethnoreligious group Turkish Jewish are an athnic mionority (1, 2 and here in britannica stated Jewish as part of ethnic miniorite's in Turkey) and i gaved alot of sources befro support this cliams that's Jewish is not only a religion but also an ethnic group. Also Armenians or Greeks in Turkey they can feel Turksih too and consider themselves to be Turkish, It's make them part of Turksih ethnic? or it's only make them Citizens of Turkey?. Some e Turkish-speaking, Orthodox Christian as Karamanlides were pro-Turkish nationalist and they identified themselves as Turkish rather than Greek and they founed a Turkish nationalist the Autocephalous Turkish Orthodox Patriarchate, So are thet Greek or Turkish???

PS: Since it's you discuss about number's Turkish Jewish account between 17,400-26,000 and according to the most recent 17,000 !! and !!!. so if you'r going to remove Christianity remove Judasim Irreilgion--Jobas (talk) 20:48, 15 October 2014 (UTC) --Jobas (talk) 20:37, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually, there's over 120,000 Turkish Jews.[24][25] AcidSnow (talk) 21:22, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

The second soruce back to 1997, it's old i guss, the first source it's dosent mention that these " Turkish origin"-jewish consider themself ethnically as Turkish rather than "Jewish ethnic". in this case the word "Turkish" it's the same meaning as say Turkish-armenians.

most of Jewish in Turkey consider part of the Sephardi Jews which are Jewish ethnic division, Turks in Israel only inculde recent immigrant workers who work in construction projects and not the Jewish who had Turkish origin.--Jobas (talk) 22:10, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

None of my sources are from 1997 so I am not sure what your talking about. Maybe that's why it does not state how they view themselves as Turkish. Why? Because it does not exist. And no, it's not the same meaning. AcidSnow (talk) 22:28, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

It's the same meaning. Show a sources that's Jewish from Turkish origin consider themself as ethnic turkish and as part of Turkish ethnic people, Jews as Greek, Turkish, Armenians, Arabs an ethnic group. for Jewish casa they also are both an ethnic and religous group. even britannica fit them as Jewish as part of ethnic miniorite's in Turkey)

ps: Dönmeh offically are muslims with Jewish descent.--Jobas (talk) 22:37, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

It's not. "Show a sources that's Jewish from Turkish origin consider themself as ethnic turkish and as part of Turkish ethnic people", I really hope your joking. I have provided you already numerous of sources. Though, I will give you sources for a 3rd and final time: "As I stated previously the Jews in Turkey don't consider themselves to be "Jewish" in the sense of an Ethnic Group but rather as a religious group. Turkish Jews consider themselves to be of Turkish ethnicity as do the Turkish Muslims, Christians, and those that are irreligious.[26][27][28][29] Even the Turkish Jews in Israel consider themselves to be Turkish and part of the Turkish diaspora. They are also tying to retain their Turkish culture instead of that of the Israeli.[30][31] As anyone can see, they are Turkish and view themselves as such. You, however, have brought nothing to dispute other than your own claim that the Jews in Turkey believe that they are not Turkish; which is far from reality. Such claims are not accepted here as they are WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH."

No, the "Dönmeh" never converted to Islam. They secretly practiced Judaism. Though, even if they did, it has little to do with this discussion. AcidSnow (talk) 22:53, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Non of these soruces cliams that's Jewish as identifies ethnic Turkish, non of them. it's mention here that's they still identifies culurally with Turkey and keep turkish cutlure and tradition which nomral, as morrocian-jerwish and german-jewish and russian-jewish in israel do, it's dosen't mean they turn to be ethnic turkish, russian-jewish aslo considerthemself part of russian diaspora and culture and history even armeians american from perisan origin.[ Esquivel, Paloma (19 September 2011). "A brotherhood is bolstered by food and friendship". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved 12 December 2012.]

even you'r sources cliams what i stated befor turkish mean for jewish from turkish origin culture and history but sure not ethnic Jews in Turkey tried to integrate into Turkish society. Yet at the same time theywere able to keep their cultural, 'ethnic and religious identities without restrictions and it's mention that when thet identifies as turk it's mean:"Turk, according to them, covered the nation’scitizens who were born in Turkey, were living in Turkey, spoke Turkish and sharedthe same culture and history". no mention for trukish ethnic[The citizens of Turkey are Turks. I don’t believe people who say Turks cameoriginally from Central Asia. These are just made-up stories. In my opinion,‘Turk’ doesn’t mean the same as ‘Muslim’. Of course, 99 per cent of the Turks inTurkey are Muslims but when someone mentions a Turk, I don’t immediatelythink that that person is a Muslim. ‘Turk’ sounds like a secular adjective, on separate from religious identity. In my opinion, a Turk is a citizen of the state of Turkey. (45 years old, lawyer)], [Almost all of the respondents called themselves both Jews and Israelis but of Turkish origin.] which by the way do jewish from middle-eastern or european countires, [ Both the groups defined themselves as Turkish. Turkishness, for them, resultedprimarily from being born in Turkish lands],[In addition to this territorial definition,the respondents in Israel and Turkey suggested that the title ‘Turkish’ enclosed adistinguished culture having various features that include way of looking at life,manners, values, aesthetic preferences, styles of raising children, food, songs, etc.which were identifiable with respect to other countries’ cultures] for the jewish of turkey being turk or turkish it's very clear mean a citizen of the state of Turkey and as cutlure and life style but sure no mention as ethnic. it's the same as for syrianic turkish and armenians-turkish.

still all sources cliams that Jewish are an ethnoreligious group, Sephardic Jews invited back to Spain after 500 years in you'r sources the word of turkish jews' come as the word of turkish armenians as here, here it's mean Bieng Jewish it's mean belong to jewish people and jewish ethnic. Just becouse these sources using the word "turkish" dosen't mean they identifies as ethnic Turkish i can give many articale use this word greek-turkish, armeians-turkish, kurd-turkish.

ps:According to you'r sources Generally, Turkish Jews in Israel have integrated well into society and are not distinguishable from other Israelis--Jobas (talk) 23:38, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Request for comment

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Request for comment is on weither or not its notable to add Christianity to the infobox even though less than .001% of Turkish people are Christians.

• Remove. It's simply WP:UNDUEWEIGHT and nothing more. AcidSnow (talk) 19:14, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
• Stay' Then you have to Romove Judaism from the infobox they are 0.03% of Turksih people, you have also to remove irreligious they account less than 1%, There are Turkish Christian community even if it's small community, remvoing them from the infobox becouse it's small minority then you have to remove irreligious and Judaism you'r point it's simply It's simply WP:UNDUEWEIGHT and nothing more and making stir abouy only a group under the pretext of the law percentage and forget about other religious groups have listed also has a small percentage of Turkish people.-- Jobas (talk) 19:38, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
• Stay I agree with Jobas. If you are going to remove Christianity from the infobox solely because it is less than .001% of the Turkish population, then you should also remove all other minorities that have similar percentages. It is important to take into account all religions in a population however miniscule the percentage may be. Best, Comatmebro ^{~Come at me~} 01:27, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Actually no Comatmebro. I never got a chance to remove it since the page was protected after Jobas broke 3RR so he could readd Christianity. Instead of discussing their numbers he choose to discuss weither they were "Turkish People" at all. As Alessandro57 stated, all insignificant minorites well be removed. AcidSnow (talk) 11:38, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

As usual it's not ture what you claiming, You removed Christianity from the infobox without discussing (so how you never got a chance to remove it?), And i gave it you in the talk page sources about a Christian community which belong to the Turkish ethnic, so There are Turkish Christian community, their number is small as the numbers of irreligious Turksih and Jewish Turkish (Without mentioning the problematic about Jewish which are an ethnoreligious group). But you only focused on Christianity and ignored the other minorites.--Jobas (talk) 14:40, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

What are you talking about? I literally just stated that I never removed Judaism. During the time of 3RR protection on the article, I made myself aware of how many Turkish people are Jews (they are to small to be included in the infobox). You do also realize that I have yet to even make another change to the article since it was locked? In fact, I even just stated in my previous reply that they too will be removed when this RFC is closed. I was not even talking about Christianity but rather Judisam to begin with. So can you please explain to us were exactly did I lie? If your going to accuse me of something, let alone make a personal attack could you at least make it believable? So I am asking you once again to please stop it.

Anyways, as I stated previously, only 1 of the 6 links you previous presented actually made any distinction between "Turkish people" and the "Citizens of Turkey"? So please don't claim that you brought "sources" when only one supported you. In the end, as Alessanro stated, having a community of anything means very little. What does matters actually is there size; which the Turkish Protestant community lacks. Unlike them, the irreligious are significantly larger and account for a much grater and noticeable percentage. AcidSnow (talk) 17:46, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Not true the sources where about a Turkish Protestant community and they were very clear that's it's about a Turkish ethnic Christian community and not about Armenian or Greek or assyrian Christian community who live in turkey. since you talk about percentage irreligious they account 1% or less depent's the study. then What is your definition of a small percentage!.-Jobas (talk) 20:27, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Is that why your links talk about the Armenians, Greeks, Azeris, Kurds and other minorities as well because they are ethnic Turkish people? No, they are referring to the citizens and other inhabitance in Turkey. AcidSnow (talk) 20:32, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Let's see my sources: (here. here, here and here) it's about an ethnic Turkish christian community belong to The Turkish ethnic, not to Armenians, Greeks, Azeris, Kurds and other minorities as well because they are ethnic Turkish people!!.--Jobas (talk) 20:35, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for providing some new sources. However, those are not the ones I was referring to. I was talking about your previous six links you provided" just before the ones in your most recent reply (these:[32][33][34][35][36]) only one (this one:[37]) makes the distinction between the "Turkish ethnic group" and that of the "Citizens of Turkey" and "Turkic peoples".

As for your new links they too don't make the distinction and also discuss Armenians and Greeks: this link and this link both lump all Muslims together regardless of ethnicity as "Turk", this one does not even mention what ethnicity they come from and only state that they are former Muslims, this one, I don't have access to it. So once again, only 1 of your sources actually made the distinction. AcidSnow (talk) 21:22, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

ِThe souces also mention the protestant Turkish community who belong to the ethnic Turkish (2 of these sources regard Turkish ethnic as "Turk" which even in wiki Turk or Turks in Germany) - ["recent Turksih muslim who convert to christianity"], [It is considered a disgrace if a Turk leaves Islam for Christianity, and Muslims who become Christians face enormous pressures. Religious pluralism is widely viewed as a threat to Islam and "national unity", and many erroneously believe that to be a real Turk one must be a Muslim.], [In an ENI interview, Tanyar said Protestants differed from Turkey's Armenian and Greek Orthodox Christians, 'since most came from recent Muslim Turkish backgrounds, rather than from ethnic minorities, and did not have historic claims to churches and properties in the country.], [What confuse us here is the existence of Turkish protestants. When the Turksih Repulic was founded, there were Turks (who were Muslims) and non-Muslims (Greek, Armenians, Jewish they were an ethnic group, they spoke differently). The evangelicans are Turks exacly like us], Turkish protestant convert etc, I'm Christian and i'm still true Turk, Secular State and Religious Society: Two Forces in Play in Turkey, In addition, there are Turkish converts to Protestant Christianity, ... people change names or conver, Turkish converts to Christianity fear for their lives after the brutal murder, In the past twenty years, around three thousand Turkish Muslims converted to a Turkish-speaking Protestant movement., Many Turkish converts to Christianity said that since the killings, interest in Christianity and tolerance toward converts have grown exponentially, [] -Jobas (talk) 21:50, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

*Sigh*, once again those are not the links that I was referring to. "2 of these sources regard Turkish ethnic as "Turk" ", nah they call all Muslims regardless of ethnicity "Turkish/Turk". If you actually spent the time read any of the links you provided instead of searching "Turkish Christians" and other stuff you would know that. Anyways, I won't waste my time explaining how these don't make the distinction either. AcidSnow (talk) 22:06, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for you very gentile responds, sorry to disappoint you but yes I readed my sources, Still there are many sources talks about the Turkish Chrisitan protestant the community which most it's adherent's came from ethnic turkish backgournd as Turkish converts to Christianity fear for their lives after the brutal murder, In the past twenty years, around three thousand Turkish Muslims converted to a Turkish-speaking Protestant movement., Many Turkish converts to Christianity said that since the killings, interest in Christianity and tolerance toward converts have grown exponentially. and it's not true these two sources called Muslims of Turkish ethnic as "Turkish/Turk" the same as wikipeida in many articale do, Have a nice day .--Jobas (talk) 22:31, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Why on earth did you use "gentile" as an insult? I will ask you once again to abstain from personal attacks. I never stated you did not read the links. AcidSnow (talk) 22:36, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

MM you said (If you actually spent the time read any of the links you provided instead of searching "Turkish Christians" and other stuff you would know that??) rigth?. Anyway i didn't attacked or even insulted you, gentile is not an inuslt as far as i know, regards.--Jobas (talk) 22:42, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Even In that sentence I never state you did not read them. "Gentile" is not meant to be an insult, but it can be used as such. This is exactly what you did. AcidSnow (talk) 22:50, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

If Gentile is insule then you'r statment as "*Sigh*", "nah", "I won't waste my time" it's compliment?--Jobas (talk) 23:06, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

None of those are insults, as "sigh" represents ones breathing and "nah" is variation of "no". As for "waste my time", it literally means "waste my time"; which I was referring to how I don't want to explain how your most recent link are once again not the one I was referring to. AcidSnow (talk) 01:49, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

And Gentile is not an insult, it's an italian word, i't literally means kind, PS:most recent link are talking referring to Turkish ethnic christians.--Jobas (talk) 09:32, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

• Remove. I totally agree with AcidSnow. In practically each ethnic group worldwide there is some christians (and muslim) with this proportion. Adding this info everywhere is senseless. And, of course, I agree to remove also all the other religious affiliations which are negligible. Alex2006 (talk) 05:35, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
• Remove per percentage. Do something more productive. For example check the other percentages in the article, make copy editing, find more and better sources etc. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 19:12, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
• Remove per percentage. If the number of adherents is negligibly low (i.e. only a few percent), it's undue weight, especially for the infobox. See Template:Infobox ethnic group for the parameter's normal usage. Middayexpress (talk) 20:19, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
• Remove Christianity, as well as others like Judaism and atheism, as mentioned above, due to lack of proportion. Grognard Chess (talk) Ping when replying 12:52, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
• Stay - Christianity as one of the main religions worldwide, it should be mentioned. The readers should be informed about this statistical fact, no matter how small the percentage is. STSC (talk) 17:56, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Statistically, percentages as those of the christian Turks are not significant. Alex2006 (talk) 18:01, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

If you don't tell at all, how do the readers know how insignificantly small the percentage is? STSC (talk) 18:20, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

This is a good point: we should write that are mentioned only the percentages higher than a certain value. This should be a guideline, valid for each article. Alex2006 (talk) 18:42, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

• Remove Any reader will know that the amount is not enough. WP:UNDUE Noteswork (talk) 06:56, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Turkmen of Syria and Iraq are not the same as Turks

They are actually more closely related to Azeris/Azerbaijanis. They are Turkic (like the Turkmen of Turkmenistan or Uzbeks of Uzbekistan), not Turkish (i.e. Anatolian Turkish). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.188.124.34 (talk) 12:37, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

At least, their written language is based on Anatolian Turkish. Overall, they are probably somewhere between Anatolian Turks and Azerbaijanis, not at all comparable to Central Asian Turkic groups like Turkmenistanis or Uzbeks. It is certainly not a stretch to call them Turkish. --Mttll (talk) 14:47, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it is a stretch to call them "Turkish". They never have been a part of Turkey. Their origins in Syria and Mesopotamia in fact predate the arrival of other Turkic tribes to Anatolia. The speak South Azeri, not Istanbul Turkish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.188.124.37 (talk) 20:43, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

The word "Turkish" well predate the Republic of Turkey. It is not a stretch to call Azerbaijanis (aka Azerbaijani Turks) Turkish, let alone the Iraqi or Syrian Turkmens. --Mttll (talk) 21:20, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Oh, so Azeris are Turks too? And Kipchaks? And Uhygurs? I'm sorry my misinformed friend, but the word "Turkish", in English, today, relates to the Republic of Turkey. Turkmen are not Turkish, and Uzbeks are not Turkish. That's why we have the word TURKIC! 109.188.124.9 (talk) 18:39, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

• I'm well aware of the distinction between Turkish and Turkic. I'm not calling Turkic groups in Central Asia, Russia or Siberia Turkish; they are not. On the other hand, Turkish is not strictly exclusive to the Republic of Turkey; it is also applied to the groups living in the former lands of the Ottoman Empire who are either etnolinguistically identical (e.g. Turks in Bulgaria or Cyprus) or very closely related (e.g. Turkmens in Syria or Iraq) to the ethnic Turks of modern Turkey. --Mttll (talk) 19:43, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

• • but "Turks" is NOT applied to the Turkmen of Iraq and Syria. That's my whole point. They're not called "Turks". They're called "Turkmen" and have a totally different history to the Anatolian Turks. You should look into it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.188.124.9 (talk) 10:03, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

• The Turks of Turkey are also called Turkmen. 'Turkmen' is just a general designation for Oghuz Turks (which was originally used by Iranians). In the Ottoman era, urban Turks were called, well, Turks, while rural Turks were called Turkmens, and they were ethnolinguistically identical people. --Mttll (talk) 13:11, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I'd also love to see some reliable sources that agree with the estimates of 3 million Turks in Algeria, or 2.4 million in Tunisia! hhhhhhhhh — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.188.124.9 (talk) 18:45, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

• I agree with this, those numbers seem absurdly inflated. --Mttll (talk) 19:43, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Turkish people being Turanid

Turanid exists in Turkih people.

Source http://racialcompositionineurope.illyria.net " The racial composition of Turks is 35% Dinaricized Mediterraneans ( Greek colonists), 20% Mediterraneans ( Aegean coast, greek colonists), 25% Irano-Afghans ( eastern Turkey, Kurds ), 20% Turanids ( original semi-oriental Turkics ). [144]The latter usage implies the existence of a Turanid racial type or "minor race", subtype of the Europid (Caucasian) race with Mongoloid admixtures, situated at the boundary of the distribution of the Mongoloid and Europid "great races" "

Source: American anthropologist, American Anthropological Association, Anthropological Society of Washington (Washington, D.C,), 1984 v. 86, nos. 3-4, p. 741.

Turkish people have found to have small degree to some degree of Mongoloid admixture. Look at this link for example it shows Turks having from 3% to 19% Mongoloid admixture.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rcdkNaYFICM/Tz1p4IcLlZI/AAAAAAAAEhs/En5H2fWIh68/s1600/ADMIXTURE%20Turkish_Aydin_Ho_3.png And in other threads you also have Turkish member having their DNA test which shows a lot of Mongoloid DNA

92.236.36.173 (talk) 20:07, 4th October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure illyria.net is actually a reliable source... far from it... let's not bring Balkan nationalist politics onto wikipedia...--Yalens (talk) 19:15, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Is realible enough when it's combined with other studies. DNA shows Turks have 10-15% East Asian admixture which is significant enough. In other studies a minority of samples showing above 16% to 22% Mongoloid admixture. ::http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/East-Asian-admixture.gif

Turanid is a predominately Europoid/Caucasoid type with significant Mongoloid admixtures.

http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Turanid_race

Turanid is a racial type that exist in a great number of Turkish people, to deny this is foolish since genetics ( autusomal DNA studies ) Turkish have the largest Mongoloid admixture between Middle east/ Europe. :Turanid race, the latter usage implies the existence of a Turanid racial type or "minor race", subtype of the Europid (Caucasian) race with Mongoloid admixtures, situated at the boundary of the distribution of the Mongoloid and Europid "great races".[150][151]

http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Augustus_Henry_Keane

" In 1882 Augustus Henry Keane said the Mongolic type included the following races: Tibetans, Burmese, Tai, Koreans, Japanese, Lu-Chu, Finno-Tatars and Malays.[149] Keane said the following peoples are mixed Mongolo-Caucasic varieties: Anatolian Turks, Uzbegs, and Tajiks of Turkestan.[149] Keane said the Kazaks are intermediate between the Túrki and Mongolian races.[149] Keane said the Mongolian race is best represented by the Buriats.[149] " -- 92.236.36.173 (talk) 10:59, 12th October 2014 (UTC)

And tell me why again we are using outdated scientific racist sources from 1882? It's 2015. --Yalens (talk) 02:35, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Modern science studies can be just as racist if not more. In any case I see nothing racist about the study in 1882, what about the other European ethnic group using scientific sources from 1870's and 1920's? I don't see why the Turkish pages isn't allowed to use old sources but others are allowed.-- 92.236.36.173 (talk) 21:48, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

LOL... Delusional theory. Turkish people (people of Turkey) are just Turkified Anatolians, Arabs and other Semitic ethnic groups, Armenians, Greeks, Georgians, Kurds and other Iranic ethnic groups, and various other groups. They have a small East Asian (Mongoloid) influence. By ethnic and language, they're categorized as Turk/Turkic, but by genetics they're similar to other West Asian Caucasians (majority) and Southern Europeans (minority). You can find original Turks in Central Asia, althought they are a mix of Europid and Mongolid, but they have dominant Turkic/Mongoloid phenotype. Turkish people are just as same as other Middle Easterns. --188.158.84.186 (talk) 03:29, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Cyprus Turkish-Greek Population ( 1771-1960)

Year GCs TCs Total
1777 37.000 47.000 84.000
1790 47.500 67.000 114.000
1793 46.392 67.000 118.000
1800 30.524 67.000 97.524

The following have the same format with the table in the article:

Population of Cyprus according to ethnic group 1777–1960

Ethnic group	census 17771		census 17902		census 17933		census 18004
	Number	%	Number	%	Number	%	Number	%
Greeks	37,000	44.0	47,500	41.5	46,392	39.3	30,524	31.3
Turks	47,000	56.0	67,000	58.5	67,000	58.8	67,000	68.7
Armenians
Maronites
Others					4,608	3.9
Total	84,000		114,500		118,000		97,524
1 Source: [http://]. 2 Source: [http://]. 3 Source: [http://]. 4 Source: [http://].

Population of Cyprus according to ethnicity (1881–1960)

Ethnic group	1881 census		1891 census		1901 census		1911 census		1921 census		1931 census		1946 census		1960 census
	Number	%	Number	%	Number	%	Number	%	Number	%	Number	%	Number	%	Number	%
Greeks	137,631	73.9	158,585	75.8	182,739	77.1	214,480	78.2	244,887	78.8	276,572	79.5	361,199	80.2	442,363	77.1
Turks	45,458	24.4	47,926	22.9	51,309	21.6	56,428	20.6	61,339	19.7	64,238	18.5	80,548	17.9	104,333	18.2
Armenians	174	0.1	280	0.1	517	0.2	558	0.2	1,197	0.4	3,377	1	3,686	0.8	3,630
Maronites	830	0.4	1,131	0.5	1,130	0.5	1,073		1,350		1,704		2,083		2,752
Others	1,738	0.9	1.364	0.7	1,327	0.6	1,569		1,942		2,068		2,598		20,488
Total	186,173		209,286		237,022		274,108		310,715		347,959		450,114		573,566

In the census from 1881 to 1960, all Muslims are counted as Turks, only Greek Orthodox are counted as Greeks. There were small populations of Greek speaking Muslims and Turkish speaking Greek Orthodox. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.140.238.55 (talk) 12:45, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Portrait album

Two young football players are too many for that gallery, especially when they are not legendary Turkish footballers like Metin Oktay or Lefter. On the other hand there is no classical musician in the album. Please replace one of those players with Fazil Say or Gulsin Onay, two internationally acclaimed extraordinary piano performers. (Say is also a composer.) Thanks. --176.239.225.190 (talk) 08:46, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Australia day CITIZEN OF THE YEAR Turks samet istar — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.178.46.31 (talk) 19:52, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Tugce Albayrak funeral: Thousands mourn in Germany — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.178.46.31 (talk) 19:54, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

People in the infobox

My argument is that it is better to have Turkish people who are citizens of and live in Turkey (except expats like Arda Turan) in the infobox rather than members of the Turkish diaspora. Because while there are articles on Turkish diaspora (Turks in Germany, Turkish American, etc.), there is no separate article on the "Turkish people in Turkey".

KazekageTR doesn't seem to disagree with me, but for some reason, he is being an obstructive bureaucrat, telling me to "seek consensus", so here it is. --Mttll (talk) 00:42, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi mate thanks for taking this issue to infobox, as you know many ethnic groups has their own articles and as you can see there are no article that includes specific information of their ethnic group on their own homeland (like Turks in Turkey or Germans in Germany or French people in France). In every single ethnic infobox there are widely known people from their group without a seperation of their place of redsidence. If you are going to do this 'uniqe' step. Please seek consensus because it doesnt make sense to me. kazekagetr 08:53, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

• This is not about where people reside. As I said, I'm fine with expatriates like Arda Turan being in the infobox. On the other, does Mesut Özil really belong there? The first sentence of his wiki article says that he is a "German footballer". The same goes for Fatih Akın, Mehmet Öz, Ahmet Ertegün, Arif Mardin etc. --Mttll (talk) 09:58, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

these are their 'citizenship' not 'ethnicity' kazekagetr 15:23, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

• All I'm saying is that there are plenty of notable people who are Turkish by ethnicity and nationality. Diasporan Turks seem overrepresented in the current infobox. --Mttll (talk) 15:07, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Mttll, Diasporan Turks are quite overrepresented here. Ahmet Ertegün and Arif Mardin are prominent Turkish Americans, but they are not really among the most prominent Turks, certainly not in the first 30. Same goes for others. We don't need to discriminate against Diasporan Turks, but they shouldn't be favored in the infobox just because they are Diasporan either.--Cfsenel (talk) 03:25, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

i think that fame and/or international recognizable achievements must be the main factor for the people in the infobox. recent edit was to put celebs like Cem Yılmaz etc. but mate, celebs like cmylmz are only famous&recognizable in Turkey while the persons in the infobox are widely recognizable. kazekagetr 07:56, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

The English Wikipedia isn't catered to an American audience. Besides, just what percentage of Americans would know Ertegün's or Mardin's name or recognize their faces? I'd say less than 1%. Artist like Barış Manço and Fazıl Say had/has more international fame that the bussinesspeople behind the Atlantic Records, not to mention their recognizability in Turkey, which is incomparable. I'm changing the infobox again. --Mttll (talk) 02:05, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

i said international success/achievements not american related so please read first. i liked fazıl say's idea and i totally forgot him, but other than him i see no-one that has international success . Fatih Akın won several international awards while Emre Belözoğlu didint won any, Barış Manço had success in east 'mainly japan' although Mehmet Oz is worldwide known, and lastly Pir Sultan Abdal's ethnicity is a matter of discuss while Ahmet Ertegün founded an 'interational' jazz-oriented producing company. Not american-centered at all. kazekagetr 18:59, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

You are now showing signs of WP:OWN. You told me to seek consensus, so I did. The only user who bothered to reply here said he tended to agree with me. Where is your consensus? --Mttll (talk) 02:09, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Let's make a comparison:

Mesut Özil (German pronunciation: [ˈmeːzut ˈøːzil], Turkish: [me̞ˈsut ˈø̞zil]; born 15 October 1988) is a German footballer who plays for English club Arsenal and the German national team.

Fatih Akın (born 25 August 1973) is a German film director, screenwriter and producer of Turkish descent.

These people do not merely live in Germany, they are German citizens. Sure, they are of Turkish origin. By all means, they should be featured in the infobox of Turks in Germany article, and indeed Özil is. But as for the article Turkish people, there are plenty of people who are described in Wikipedia as "{name} {surname} is a Turkish {his/her occupation}". For example:

Emre Belözoğlu (Turkish pronunciation: [emˈɾe beˈløzoːɫʊ], born 7 September 1980 in Istanbul) is a Turkish football midfielder who plays for Fenerbahçe. His past clubs include Galatasaray, Inter Milan, Newcastle United and Atlético Madrid. Emre has been a part of the Turkey national team since 2000, earning over 90 caps and helping the team to the semi-finals at the 2002 World Cup and at Euro 2008. Pelé named him in the FIFA 100, a list of the 125 greatest living footballers as a part of FIFA's centenary celebrations.

Belözoğlu is Turkish by both ethnicity and nationality. And he is certainly notable enough.

The same goes for Haluk Bilginer, who took part in several Hollywood movies as well as Ceylan's Palme d'Or winner Winter Sleep. --Mttll (talk) 02:50, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

check archives before accusing a wikipedia user we had a discussion for degisnation of the people in infobox. anyways you dont seem to get the idea of 'ethnicity' i suggest you take a look at its definiton from a dictionary. They might be living abroad or born abroad but it doesnt make them non-Turkish. A worldwide knoen director like Fatih Akın 'must' be mentioned, rather than a footballer which only makes money cause he has a name. And for Bilginer, he isnt famous enough dude. I sense that 'you' are showing the signs of WP:OWN. kazekagetr 09:27, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

All I'm saying is this: Let's have people who are Turkish by ethnicity and nationality in the infobox of the Turkish people article, people who are Turkish by ethnicity and German by nationality in the infobox of the Turks in Germany, people who are Turkish by ethnicity and American by nationality in the infobox of the Turkish Americans article. (Remember, there is no separate "Turkish people in Turkey" article.) Why are you against it? It is perfectly reasonable and avoids duplicate content. --Mttll (talk) 10:10, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

All I'm is this: Let's have people who are Turkish by ethnicity regardless of their citizenship. There are no such articles like Frenchs in France or Germans in Germany or Italians in Italy aslo. There are no ethinicity atricles about their homeland. kazekagetr 11:25, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Let's put this in perspective: The number of English Americans is about hundred times as many as the Turkish Americans, yet if we look at the infobox of the article English people, we see people who are/were English both by ethnicity and nationality. --Mttll (talk) 13:37, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't necessarily object having people who are ethnically Turk with different citizenships in the infobox. One thing to consider is identity, how much a given person identify with Turkish people, as opposed to other peoples; and how much Turkish people identify with the given person. Ethnicity is not citizenship, but nor is it race. Assimilation may not change 'race' (if there is such a thing), but it changes ethnicity. For example, I think it would be very strange to see Mehmet Akif Ersoy or Hakan Şükür in Albanian people, even though they may be more famous than many of the people on that page and their parents/ancestors may be ethnically Albanian. If anything, they should actually be in the infobox of Turkish people. (I too have concerns about the prominence of Emre Belözoğlu, Hakan Şükür would suit much better, but I guess the current politics may be an issue). At any rate, regardless of wheter Mehmet Akif Ersoy or Hakan Şükür mentioned in Turkish people, they ought not be in Albanian people, and some current examples in the page Turkish people resemble that.--Cfsenel (talk) 00:23, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Ersoy and Şükür are featured in the infobox of the article Albanians in Turkey. To be fair, both have made statements expressing their Albanian identity; especially Şükür, who explicitly said his ethnicity was Albanian and not Turkish. However, I would be against them being featured in the infobox of the Albanian people as well, because while they are Albanian by ethnicity, they are Turkish by nationality. --Mttll (talk) 04:47, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, if the logic on this page was followed, Albanian people infobox would be full of Albanians in Turkey. Candan Erçetin, Hakan Şükür, Engin Altan Düzyatan, Demet Evgar each more famous internationally than, say, Azem Galica. (To be fair, they include Adnan Januzaj, he is the singular foreign-born example.) Now, cherishing family roots is one thing, but in the case of most of them, they are assimilated enough that if they will be associated with an ethnicity, that would be Turkish ethnicity (again, ethnicity is not race, it is identity). See Zinedine Zidane from Algerians in France for example, he is featured in French people, not Algerians, and I agree with that practice. (Hakan Şükür may be the exception here, he also identifies strongly with the Albanian people. Lefter Küçükandonyadis is another obvious example, while he would be considered Turkish in most contexts, he is not ethnically Turkish, his native language is Greek and he has a distinct community identity.)

I think currently the infobox is not that problematic, Arif Mardin being replaced with Fazıl Say per consensus. Given the large number of Turks in Germany, I wouldn't object to a German-national from Turkish ethnicity as an example, and it seems Fatih Akın nicely cuts it, both well-known and frequently works on the theme of German-Turks. But I have doubts about Mesut Özil. Not only I have the reservations I mentioned above, but also his Wikipedia page describes him as being from a Kurdish ethnicity family from Turkey, with the source [38]. Considering those, I suggest replacing him with one of Mttll's proposals, Cem Yılmaz, Barış Manço or Haluk Bilginer as a compromise. With the others remaining, this should still solve the overrepresentation issue. What do you say, kazekagetr?--Cfsenel (talk) 17:18, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Those are some excellent points that you made comparing ethnic Albanians in Turkey to Albanians at large. As for Özil, there is no doubt that he is ethnically Turkish and not Kurdish; his wikipage was just circulating a hoax. But Özil did actively cut his ties with the Turkish nation by revoking his citizenship (this may be the reason why rumors that he is Kurdish arised), so yes, I'm not so sure if he'd be one of the thirty people I would choose to represent the Turkish people at large. --Mttll (talk) 06:00, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Mate that issue is being taken care of, if you check the page now, you will see that there are good refs that designates him as Turkish. If the problem continues, i think that we should replace him with another international known sportsman instead of not that well known persons. I really doubt that cmylmz and Bilginer has an international fame to mention, altough Manço has more fame than them but like i said we could put a sportsman to replace a sportsman. kazekagetr 19:49, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

The list already includes two sportsmen, Ömer Aşık and Arda Turan, but no actors, and it would be good to include one. Both Cem Yılmaz and Haluk Bilginer has some international fame, they both starred in foreign movies (and still do, this is from today [39]). And they don't need to be that famous, but prominent, influential and representative of Turkish people. e.g. Osman Hamdi Bey and Hulusi Behçet are not in the infobox because of their fame. If you have another actor in mind (or other professional that is underrepresented here), suggest it by all means. My reservation about Mesut Özil still stands. If you cannot agree on such a compromise, then I guess I support Mttll's edits.--Cfsenel (talk) 01:28, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Şenel, you should read carefully, i mentioned that 'fame and/or international recognizable achievements' should be the main factor. Behçet discovered(as you know) Behçet's disease. It is a huge achievement. Also the issue about Özil has been solved so he can stay but i agree that Osman Handi Bey can be replaced. kazekagetr 16:13, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I think if someone has a non-Turkish citizenship, that's not necessarily a problem, but in that case they should have made some kind of claim that they feel Turkish. Any person in the infobox should either 1.) have Turkish citenzship, or 2.) be quoted saying that they feel a member of the Turkish nation. It is not right to take someone who is of Turkish ancestry, but might neither have citizenship nor any inner feeling of Turkishness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.206.142.192 (talk) 00:07, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

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Women in infobox

Out of 25 figures featured in the infobox, only 2 are women. Can someone diversify that collection a bit? 128.84.127.104 (talk) 01:14, 10 September 2015 (UTC)