Talk:Tokyo dialect

[ʃ]?

In standard Japanese phonology "shi" is pronounced [ɕi], not [ʃi]. Are [ʃi] and [ʃɯ] in the Phonology section mistakes, or is that another distinguishing feature of the Tokyo dialect that was not spelled out in the section? Some citations would be nice.VonPeterhof (talk) 11:34, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I guess I'll just go ahead and make the change. If anyone can find citations to the contrary, feel free to revert.VonPeterhof (talk) 10:48, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Does the name Shinichi became Hinichi in Shitamachi?--89.97.177.24 (talk) 22:36, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Contradiction

This whole concept of a "Tokyo Dialect" seems far-fetched. Certainly people in their 60's and older who grew up in the shitamachi section of Tokyo have a unique dialect. (In particular, "hi" becomes "shi", e.g. Shitachi-byoin, o-shiru.) But other than that small minority, I strongly suspect that Tokyo Japanese is standard Japanese. For example, even within this article, the following two sentences seem highly contradictory: (1) "The dialect in modern Tokyo is often considered to equate standard Japanese, though in fact the Tokyo dialect differs from standard Japanese in a number of areas." (2) "Traditional Tokyo dialects are now barely used as most families living in Tokyo speak standard Japanese or standardization Tokyo dialect. The difference between Shitamachi and Yamanote becomes almost extinct." I cannot find in this article (or anywhere in Wikipedia for that matter) any explanation of how the supposed Yamanote dialect currently differs from standard Japanese. --Westwind273 (talk) 12:44, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

This reply is years late but: The problem is that the article as it is now covers at least four entirely different versions of Japanese (standard, Yamanote, Shitamachi, New Tokyo) without ever bothering to really make a distinction between them.

Yamanote dialect is significantly different from standard Japanese in that it absolutely does not have contractions used in casual speech, and has things like the collocation "zamasu". In modern Japanese it's mostly used in a sarcastic manner to portray someone as pompous.

Shitamachi dialect is something like a cockney equivalent of Japanese and very different. It's likewise mostly used as a caricature (but for "everyman" type people) in modern Japanese.

New Tokyo dialect is an academic term in Japan related to studies of how language in Tokyo is actually totally different from standard Japanese. Most people in Japan are not aware of the term because the difference is insignificant to most.

"Tokyo Japanese/Dialect" is a poorly-defined term that could depending on the context mean any one of the above, sometimes refer to standard Japanese when a person is misinformed, refer to Shitamachi and Yamanote kotoba as a set, or refer to language as it existed in Tokyo over a long span of time in the context of studies related to the history of the region. 109.236.4.20 (talk) 18:49, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Here is what I would say: 95% of the people in the Tokyo metropolitan area speak standard Japanese as their native dialect; this is identical to "Yamanote dialect". 5% (or less) of the people in the Tokyo metropolitan area speak the shitamachi dialect; this is mostly older people who grew up in the shitamachi neighborhood, and it is dying out. So the de facto situation is that Tokyo Japanese is standard Japanese; there is no difference. And "Yamanote dialect" is simply the original name of what is now standard Japanese. So in this sense, there really is no "Tokyo dialect", which brings into question whether this article should exist at all. --Westwind273 (talk) 03:19, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Serious problems with this article

"Tokyo dialect" in Japanese (東京方言) is a minor, poorly-defined term that is barely ever used, and can mean a number of things. The ja.wikipedia article on it treats it as "language as it is used in Tokyo" when it is used in an academic context to study how language in Tokyo has evolved over time, so that it is more "the study of the history of language in Tokyo".

The way Japanese is spoken in Tokyo in a contemporary context is NOT Tokyo dialect but "首都圏方言" or "新東京方言" (referred to as New Tokyo Dialect in the article). This is also an academic term not used by regular people, that goes into fine details of how the language spoken in the metropolitan area is ever so slightly different from "real" Japanese.

Not an issue with this article, but: Western sources frequently refer to a "standard Tokyo Japanese" as the official lingua franca of Japan. There is no such thing, as all forms of "Tokyo Japanese" are considered to be different from the actual official standard Japanese (標準語 or 共通語).

Another meaning of Tokyo Japanese is Edo-ben, which is an old and mostly obsolete dialect from Edo (old Tokyo) that is mostly seen in fiction, period dramas, and rakugo. This is also known as Edokko Japanese or Shitamachi dialect. Though it is the closest thing to it that exists in common usage, it is almost never referred to as "Tokyo dialect", because it predates Tokyo. But even though it should not be referred to as "Tokyo dialect", the vast majority of the article is about it for some reason.

This article is an absolute mess combining multiple related but also vastly different things and presenting them as a single, entirely different one. The vast majority of the content would belong on an Edo-ben article, not here. 109.236.4.20 (talk) 18:37, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Since I replied to someone above with this and it's relevant, I'm just copying it over too:

The problem is that the article as it is now covers at least four different versions of Japanese (standard, Yamanote, Shitamachi, New Tokyo) without ever bothering to really make a distinction between them.

Yamanote dialect is significantly different from standard Japanese in that it absolutely does not have contractions used in casual speech, and has things like the collocation "zamasu". In modern Japanese it's mostly used in a sarcastic manner to portray someone as pompous.

Shitamachi dialect is something like a cockney equivalent of Japanese and very different. It's likewise mostly used as a caricature (but for "everyman" type people) in modern Japanese.

New Tokyo dialect is an academic term in Japan related to studies of how language in Tokyo is actually totally different from standard Japanese. Most people in Japan are not aware of the term because the difference is insignificant to most.

"Tokyo Japanese/Dialect" is a poorly-defined term that could depending on the context mean any one of the above, sometimes refer to standard Japanese when a person is misinformed, refer to Shitamachi and Yamanote kotoba as a set, or refer to language as it existed in Tokyo over a long span of time in the context of studies related to the history of the region.

"Tokyo dialect" is a pretty bad title for an article, and the contents are barely related to it, and presented in a nonsensical manner. 109.236.4.20 (talk) 18:51, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Some concrete details on issues:

The intro sounds like it's about New Tokyo Dialect (saying it's the dialect speaken in MODERN Tokyo), but then it immediately goes into Shitamachi/Yamanote, obsolete dialects that nobody uses in a modern context.

Phonology likewise is entirely about Shitamachi/Yamanote, with an excessive focus on the former, completely ignoring the latter except in "Pitch accent".

Grammar starts off going on about "Tokyo dialect" without defining what it's talking about (Shitamachi, Yamanote, or New Tokyo)

Vocabulary suddenly switches to talking about "it" and how it's different from "the standard speech of Tokyo" even though the first line in the article was "Tokyo dialect is the Japanese dialect spoken in modern Tokyo"!

And then New Tokyo, which is what the article originally claimed to be about, shows up at the end, except that the first line is more history of Shitamachi/Yamanote, and then it concludes with random trivia, and never once explains what New Tokyo Dialect is.

Now that I'm looking at it again, I think my first instinct to just remove the majority of the content was completely correct. 109.236.4.20 (talk) 19:24, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

I would like to add that apparently there is ANOTHER definition of "Tokyo dialect" I was unaware of that includes Tama, Hachijo, Ogasawara, and Hokubu Izu Shoto dialects under its scope. 109.236.4.20 (talk) 19:35, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

I have cleaned up the article, and added a notability tag. 109.236.4.20 (talk) 02:38, 26 January 2021 (UTC)