Talk:Tog Wajaale

Wajaale stimated at population of 47,000 people. Mainly farmers and rural.

Wajaale stimated at population of 47,000 people mainly Farmers and Rural with a climate of low and humidity AAmiinMaxamuud Xasan (talk) 11:05, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Demographics

The town is shared between the Reer Mohamed Nuur of the Makahiil of the Gadabursi, and the Jibirl Abokor Isaaq, valid source indicating town population is being removed without cause. Source is as follows.

Mohamed Abdi; Safiya Tani; Nasir Osman. L OCAL C APACITIES FOR P EACE Addressing Land-based Conflicts in Somaliland and Afghanistan (Table Graph). Academy for Peace and Development. p. 67. Retrieved 6 July 2017. "Baseline Data of Land Conflicts in Somaliland, showing Samaroon (Reer Maxamed Nur) Jibril Abokor (Aadan Cumar), share the town of Tog Wajale" .

The chart shows the population of the inhabitants of this town. The user reverting might have an agenda in removing the Gadabursi inhabitants of this town. I have since reverted the edits back to include the source. Aqooni (talk) 01:18, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Also the IM lewis source states that the Isaaq community set up farming councils, but it never mentions what subclans of any clan reside in this town. I am not sure why that source is being used at all.The Aqoon One 21:41, 6 July 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aqooni (talk • contribs)

Your source refers to 'Privatization of communal land' dispute, it does not discuss demographics of town, please stick to wording of Lewis unless you can provide a different source that deals with demographics of town. Kzl55 (talk) 21:46, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

IM lewis still does not state what subclans reside in the town, as opposed to my source that shows the two main inhabitants of the town. I can quote the page you are referencing, which does not even mention clans or demographics of the town at all. For my source, how can two clans have a land dispute in the town, if they do not reside there? Your logic is flawed. Furthermore, the land conflict chart shows the two main inhabitants of the town. Another unwarranted removal. The Aqoon One 21:48, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

I have stated this several times in edit summaries and on here, your source only mentions a 'privatisation of communal land' dispute, it does not reference the demographics of town in any way, it is thus not appropriate to use as your are inferring the demographics. No original research is one of the main guidelines of Wikipedia. Lewis clearly states "he spread of order and the greater emphasis given to the control of disputes through the judicial functions of elders without resourse to feud, has encouraged the Protectorate Administration to set up a Rural District Council for the Sa'ad Muuse farming areas centred on Gebile, Arapsiyo, and Tug Wajale, with headquarters at Gebile. A similar Rural Local Government Council for the Gadabuursi was opened at Borama in 1957." (Pastoral Democracy, p. 239), the fact that district council for the Saad Muuse included Tog Wajaale whilst the Gadabursi one was opened not at Tog Wajaale but at Borama clearly indicates demographics of the town. The quote mentions both groups in question. --Kzl55 (talk) 22:15, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

The book " Addressing Land-based Conflicts in Somaliland and Afghanistan" Is not original research, you are misusing that term. Its a paper that is used for land disputes and demographics. Even for your farming source (IM LEWIS), it is outdated compared to my source. My source shows the two segments of the town , and their land disputes (From the 20th Century to the 21st Century). The farming council in your outdated source ( Which dates back to colonial times) , still does not show demographics of any region at all. Just Farming Councils that were set up by certain clans. My source still stands as the most relevant and informative source of the residents of this town. Again the question i asked, was not answered. How do thetwo clans that reside in this town, have a dispute, if they do not reside in the town??? You are using outdated colonial sources that do not even mention demographics, but rather farming councils. As opposed to my relevant source, which shows the two clans have resided in that town, at least from the 20th century. The Aqoon One 22:29, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

The source you used is not original research, but your use of that source is what constitutes OR. The source you have included does not indicate demographics of town, it just list a dispute within the town related to 'privatisation of communal land', the dispute could be between any number of people/groups. You can use that source to confirm that there is a dispute in the town, anything else you use that source for is OR. For instance, on p.69, it lists the dispute between a member of the upper house and local government, on the same page it lists a dispute between the ministry of Agriculture and a business woman, what does that have to do with demographics? The examples from that table are plenty. Also please do not project your own prejudices on the source (outdated etc), this is not for you to decide, Lewis (Pastoral Democracy, p. 239) clearly states the district council for Habar Awal included Tog Wajaale, whilst the Gadabursi one included Borama. As explained to you previously, there are other sources that clearly indicate the majority group in the district being Habar Awal (p.62). Furthermore Gadabursi are named in this quote as a minority clan in the greater Gabiley area "According to a professor of anthropology at the London School of Economics and Political Science and author of several books on Somalia, the main inhabitants of the Gabiley area in 1987-1988 were the Habar Awal, the Saa'd Muuse --both lssaq --and the Jibril Abokor (the 'Ali Jibril segment) (31 Mar. 1996). The source adds that there were also a small number of Gadabursi and that there were probably some Ogaden (Darod Somali) and Oromo (non-Somali) refugees from Ethiopia living in the area." source. I suggest you cease the edit warring and disruptive edits. --Kzl55 (talk) 23:23, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Your argument is still not clear. I will address two of your points and prove why you are mistaken. Numbers will be questions, and the letter A will be my answer in the text below.

1.Political source source" which states "In the nearby district of Gabiley, no party nominated any candidates from the neighbouring Gadabursi clan because it was believed that the majority clan (Habar Awal/Saad Musa) would not vote for them,".

A) This is completely irrelevant to this demographics of the town of Tog Wajaale. Since we are not talking about the overall district demographics of Gabiley District, but rather this city (Tog Wajaale) in particular.

2. Gabiley City Source (http://www.refworld.org/docid/3ae6ab704.html) "The main inhabitants of the Gabiley area in 1987-1988 were the Habar Awal, the Saa'd Muuse --both lssaq --and the Jibril Abokor (the 'Ali Jibril segment)"

A) This source again refers to the Gabiley town. You are again using a source that refers to the town of Gabiley, and you are trying to apply it to every single town within the District. You are clearly misusing that source towards the town of Tog Wajaale, which it does not even mention.

3. Your argument against my source, page 67 of the graph is titled "8.Baseline Data of Land Conflicts in Somaliland " source

A) I will quote directly from my source. It states there was a conflict in Tog Wajaale (the city) regarding "Privatization of communal land between the Samaroon (Reer Maxamed Nur )and Jibril Abokor (Aadan Cumar) between the years of 1993– 2006, Partially resolved", See Page 67 of Table Graph of source . Communal means: shared by all members of a community; for common use. The source is valid and relevant because it lists a dispute of members in the town, regarding land shared by all members of the community I.E those who reside in the town. It is factually relevant, because it would not list those who live outside the town, (regarding that dispute). Whether or not you want to argue majorities or minorities of Tog Wajaale town is neither here or there. The fact of the matter is, with my source (listed above) it lists two clans who reside in the town, (and had a dispute from 1993-2006.) The clans listed are the "Samaroon (Reer Maxamed Nur )and Jibril Abokor (Aadan Cumar" . The entire graph of page 67 of listed source "8.Baseline Data of Land Conflicts in Somaliland" deals with clans in certain areas and their conflicts within their towns. The source I provided , refers to inhabitants of Tog Wajaale town that had a long lasting dispute about shared land within the town, between the two clans (which is impossible if they do not reside there). The source is completely relevant and the source still stands The Aqoon One 03:03, 8 July 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aqooni (talk • contribs)

source Page 58 of source listed called "Overview of Baseline Data on Land-based Conflicts in Somaliland (and between Somaliland communities)", also shows same chart and the land based conflicts regarding towns in Somaliland and the clans that live within those towns. It is ample proof the Gadabursi reside in Tog Wajaale, which is what I am claiming. Also page 16 of same source states "Privatisation of Formerly State-Owned Agricultural Land In the Togwachale plain, the regime of Barre had nationalized large swathes of agricultural prime land and designated it to labour intensive farming schemes. After the fall of the regime, the Somaliland government did not set up a privatisation plan for the formerly state owned areas. The vacated land was arbitrarily occupied by neighbouring clan communities. They legitimise their expansion into the former state farm by referring to ancestral claims and assertion to have owned the land before it was nationalized. There exist no documents that proof their legal claims. Because of the lack of clear tenure, neighbouring groups are engaged in disputes on who is taking what of the formerly state-owned land. The issue raised inter-clan tensions and reached the verge of escalating into violent conflict. The issue is not fully resolved and remains a potential for armed confrontation between the subclan of Reer Mohamed Nour (Samaroon/Gadabursi) and Adan Omer (Sa’ad Muuse-Jibril Abokor). As proven by this source, the Gadabursi reside in Tog Wajale, and the plains that surround it. The Aqoon One 06:11, 8 July 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aqooni (talk • contribs)

As stated, your source deals with disputes on 'privatisation of communal land', it does not deal with demographics in any way, for instance it also lists disputes between individuals/state departments/businesspersons, using it to prove demographics is original research. I suggest you avoid forum-y posts on talk pages as it really leads no where, I have personally found this page very useful, I suggest you give it a read. --Kzl55 (talk) 17:25, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Demographics

Do you know Aadan Cumar is a sub-clan of Reer Yoonis right? Wajaale is wholly dominated by reer yoonis sub-clan of Jabril Abokor, the largest minority are Muhammed Abokor (Mo-farah clan) which is sub-clan of Jabril Abokor who have their vice mayor in Wajaale and have the second largest seat in Wajaale. Gadabursi don't even pass Dilla. East Dilla area is strictly Jabril Abokor and and west Dilla is strictly gadabursi, you guys do not live in southern awubere district which is reer Yoonis stronghold and like I said before Gabiley region is exclusively inhabited by Jabril Abokor so please stop the lies because there are multiple Jabril Abokor editers who will edit every gadabursi related stuff. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Habar Awal king (talk • contribs) 10:08, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Gadabursi Settlement in Wajaale

The Gadabursi do reside in this town, this fact cannot be disputed. In fact source #3 Http://www.refworld.org/docid/3ae6ab704.html, on this page being used to indicate Isaaq settlement in this town, does not mention this town at all, but rather the district, and includes Gadabursi's as residing in the district. Henceforth I added Gadabursi to this page as per the source indicated. The Aqoon One 02:53, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Gadabursi Presence

I have included 1 source that mentions the Gadabursi presence in this town, and another speaking about the history of this town regarding the privatization of communal land. There is no cause for these references to be removed constantly. The unexplained edits and vandalism must stop. The sources speak for themselves.Aqooni (talk) 01:18, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

The Reer Nuur of the Gadabuursi clan resides in Gabiley. From the years of 1993-2016, there was a conflict between the Gadabursi and Isaaq over the privatization of communal land in this town. The conflict has been partially resolved through the work of traditional elders,Guurti, and the Gabiley Local council.

Aqooni,

I will make the requested edits if you accept that the Gadabursi presence is that of a minority community in this district.

Linkjan2014 (talk) 01:35, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

We are not talking about the district, rather the town in question Tog Wajaale. This is an odd demand that I will forward over to a Wikipedia moderator. I have plenty of sources that show the Gadabursi reside in multiple towns within the Gabiley District, including this one.Aqooni (talk) 01:38, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Aqooni,

Then post the sources here in the interest of transparency, you haven't provided anything that proves that they are on equal footing with Isaaq in this district, yet ALL of your edits suggests IMPLICITLY that is the case. If you don't post the sources, i'll have to conclude you are being untruthful. Like I said, I'm willing to come to a consensus and compromise over my earlier stance of Isaaq Exclusively inhabiting the district, and you are ducking all attempts at doing so.

Linkjan2014 (talk) 01:41, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Linkjan2014 I see you cannot deny the Gadabursi presence in Tog Wajaale at all, if you cannot deny that, then they have no reason to be removed from this page. I am merely arguing for the Gadabursi presence in this town to stop being removed. What you have done was vandal like and was reported with good cause. If you want to argue numbers within this town, merely bring sources and provide them here on the talk page, so we can have a civilized discussion.Aqooni (talk) 01:47, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Aqooni,

Now we're finally getting somewhere. Can you also similarly, as an act of good faith accept that the Jibril Abokor are the majority community in this district and its major towns which includes TogWajaale? I don't have a problem with including the Samaroon minority presence, but it has to be respective of FACTS on the ground that they have a minority presence at best.

My source is from the British Somaliland surveys from done by the British Government in 1945-1947 showing the home wells of the respective clans of Habar Awal and Gadabursi in Somaliland.

https://imgur.com/a/pRRdu (Habar Awal Wells)

https://imgur.com/a/JZI3v {Gadabursi Wells)

Habar Awal traditional wells and grazing grounds, which clearly shows that Gabiley, Arabsiyo, El Bardale and more as all native Jibril Abokor (Habar Awal) towns, and that the Gadabursi MAJORITY presence starts at Dilla in Awdal.

Your well sources are severely outdated and are from the colonial age, showing where livestock would drink from, I am not sure how that correlates to town populations in 2018 . Please provide more current sources. Again, I see you cannot deny the Gadabursi presence within Tog Wajaale therefore they should be included on this page. Please provide sources more current as I have when talking about who resides in Tog Wajaale. Look above for the sources I posted. Aqooni (talk) 02:07, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Aqooni,

You haven't posted a single source. MY outdated sources suffice better than your hearsay. Linkjan2014 (talk) 02:17, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

My sources are already posted, if you have trouble reading I will post them again. Read below, One source from 1995 and one from 2007. All up to date and trumps your outdated colonial sources. As we both agree, the Gadabursi reside in Tog Wajaale. Since we both agree, I am not sure why this discussion is still on going.

The Reer Nuur of the Gadabuursi clan resides in Gabiley. From the years of 1993-2016, there was a conflict between the Gadabursi and Isaaq over the privatization of communal land in this town. The conflict has been partially resolved through the work of traditional elders,Guurti, and the Gabiley Local council. Aqooni (talk) 02:25, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

There is no Gadabursi presence in Gabiley region. Evenidently by MP's. There is not a single Gadabursi MP serving for Gabiley district. Plus? the mayor and vice mayor for Wajaale is Reer Yoonis and Deriyahan which debunks your lies. Plus your sources are weak and doesn't prove anything. Miledisco (talk) 15:33, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

References

Orphaned references in Tog Wajaale

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Tog Wajaale's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Rdatp":

• From Gabiley District: "Regions, districts, and their populations: Somalia 2005 (draft)" (PDF). UNDP. Retrieved 21 September 2013.
• From Gabiley: "Population Estimation Survey 2014 For the 18 Prewar regions of Somalia" (PDF).

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 05:44, 18 October 2020 (UTC)