Talk:The Family That Slays Together, Stays Together (Part I)

Cultural References In The Plot

Please refrain from explaining cultural references in the plot summary. It makes the plot too long and distracting to read. Plus we have a section for the Cultural References. 72.250.160.130 (talk) 19:49, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

---

I'm pretty sure the shark was dressed up in Brock's clothes and hair, they weren't just in a pool of blood. Edited accordingly.

---

On the goofs; actually when Brock initially notices an engine getting hit the explosion is on the right side of the plane. But as the camera pans out aftre he says the starboard engine is out the engine on the left is on fire. So either both engines got put out of commission or the whole thing is goofed up. I'd go for this not being a goof and Brock being correct about the starboard engine. --Rifter0x0000 (talk) 21:35, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

"Herr Trigger" and other references

I might be alone on this, but I also got the impression that his appearance and mannerisms in that sequence were possibly a visual gag on the Aeon Flux series and the characters there. In addition, of course, to the possibly more obvious references to The Terminator's motorcycle chase scene. 24.128.63.214 (talk) 22:34, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Herr Trigger was not inspired by Aeon Flux --PseudoChron (talk) 03:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I actually thought Aeon Flux too. Glad I was not alone! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.107.39.123 (talk) 03:06, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

yeah, all the licking of the weapon reminded me of AF as well. Go Fish reminded me of the old Aquaman villian, the Fisherman. ---emb021. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.182.158.153 (talk) 18:57, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The fact that he is East German and a biathlon champion is clearly a reference to an KGB assassin from the James Bond movie, For Your Eyes Only. Why was it removed? Hell, why were the other references relating to the hired assassins removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.70.201.113 (talk) 11:27, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Another thing... the French assassin's outfit. KRAVEN THE HUNTER?! Anyone?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.70.201.113 (talk) 12:06, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Because they were unsourced speculation.

If you're guessing something's a reference, or you think it's a reference, or you're sure it's a reference, don't add it to the article. If a reliable source says it's a reference, then you add it to the article. There are projects devoted to guessing at all the references (TV Tome and the VB Wikia come immediately to mind) but this is emphatically not it. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 22:14, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for ruining a few interesting pages on Venture episodes "A Man In Black." Where are people supposed to cite information for stuff like this? There aren't periodicals that publish Venture Brothers references. No one at home is going "MY GOD HENRY KILLINGER IS A REFERENCE TO HENRY KISSINGER - CAN THEY PROVE THAT!?" No. A few of the 'cultural references' might be speculation, but you're using the OR rule in places I think it should be left out. Aside from asking Adult Swim, how are you supposed to prove any of their cultural references?

It still stands that they are beneficial to the viewers of the show, and interesting to the fans. You're just being a jerk.

If Brock talks about cleaning up a bisected corpse by referencing an artist who actually did work with bisected corpses, does making the connection count as an "original reference"? Do I need to cite Bertrand Russell and Alfred Whitehead's Principia Mathematica if I want to say 1 + 1 = 2? Or, more pertinently, do I need to site a reference book on fascism if I want to talk about A Man In Black's edits? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.202.178.66 (talk) 06:53, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd say the reference to fascism is unwarranted - fascism is far more extreme than bad edits.

However the culling of cultural references really is far more of a problem than irrelevant ones. The Venture Brothers is, by its nature, an extremely reference-dense show, so when in doubt, I tend to include things that seem reasonably plausible. For instance in this, I don't buy that Molotov's henchpeople are named after Joan Jett's bands as there's no evidence (it could just be her eyepatch). On the other hand Holy Diver and Sky Pilot, two characters with names easily traceable to songs (one of which quite well known), seems to indicate a deliberate reference.

It's an art, not a science. XWayfarer (talk) 15:44, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

There are far too many cultural references in this show to pad the already-too-long articles with speculative cultural references. For example, Go Fish's inspiration is Quint? Um, wait until you hear that on a commentary before posting it. Please. 72.250.160.130 (talk) 17:16, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

A pretty good point there - we know there's a lot, we don't want to obscure what's obvious. In the case of Go Fish, I can see why someone would think that, but Quint himself is sort of the "archetypical sea dog" type character anyway. Come to think of it, I think that one should probably be removed. XWayfarer (talk) 18:36, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Please understand I'm not trying to pick on anyone here -- that was just an example. It's just a slippery slope. The Spy Hunter reference is another good example... it's a reach. I think the Quint thing may well be correct. We just don't have room for the maybes. :) Evilwillhunting (talk) 19:30, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

You know what'd be useful is for some examples of good and bad references too. We're all kind of winging it here. For instance, I think the Quint one though possible, really isn't one you can say is definitely likely as the "old sea dog" character is as old as the hills (I could argue in fact he's like Ahab). On the other hand the Sky Pilot and Holy Diver song references seem extremely likely as Venture Brothers is packed with musical references, and having potential song references in the same context seems likely XWayfarer (talk) 20:32, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Good reference: "In (such and such), Doc Hammer said that Phantom Limb's bodyguards were intended to be Klaus Nomi and Iggy Pop."

Bad reference: "Phantom Limb's bodyguards are parodies of Klaus Nomi and Iggy Pop."

If you're going to draw a conclusion, you need to attribute it. If you're attributing it to yourself or nobody, it is original research and will be removed. I don't care how obvious you think it is. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:36, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Do you even watch the show? The bodyguards weren't parodies of Klaus Nomi and Iggy Pop -- they explicitly were Klaus Nomi and Iggy Pop. Likewise, in this episode Sgt. Hatred says, "Like Patty Smyth before me, I am a warrior." I added an entry noting that Patty Smyth was in the band Scandal which had a hit song called The Warrior -- but that got deleted along with the rest of the section! If you want to cull the more speculative references, fine, but don't remove the entire section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seantrinityohara (talk • contribs) 06:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

That seems like a bad example to me. Phantom Limb's bodyguards names were Iggy Pop and Klaus Nomi. If a character looks like Iggy Pop, is named Iggy Pop, makes Stooges references and works for David Bowie, it's hardly "original research" to link to an article about Iggy Pop in a cultural reference to the bodyguard. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.134.185.141 (talk) 04:27, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The Klaus and Iggy reference I think are OK, because it is near impossible to argue otherwise. I think that one should be allowed, as the above said. Just like the "Firestarter" reference in "What Goes Down, Must Come Up." True, its not explicity stated anywhere, but tell me how that could be a coincidence. Now, if I were to say "Go Fish's appearance is based on Wolverine" (because of his muttonchops and wild hair), THAT is a stretch that I can't back up. I'm more worried about those kinds of unsubstantiated references. Evilwillhunting (talk) 11:56, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Evilwillhunting, that's actually a good example of a bad reference - taking some minor information and extrapolating too far. The information is true (indeed, you're right he does vaguely resemble Wolverine), but there's nothing to corroborate it. Now if he had the muttonchops and say, a clawed glove or something, and smoked a cigar, or was part of a group called the X-Fishers, etc. you'd have an obvious reference. As I always note, this is both art and science, especially in a show like this, which is extraordinarily reference-dense. XWayfarer (talk) 15:55, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The argument is "This is true, who are you to argue it isn't?" I don't doubt that most of these references are true. I picked Phantom Limb's bodyguards specifically because it is undisputably true. It's also a unreferenced conclusion when it's not attributed.

If you want to add lists of trivia about which most fans agree, then go to one of the projects that does that, because Wikipedia isn't it. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:31, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Since when do indisputably true facts need to a citation? Do you also complain that the article on Christmas doesn't provide a source for it occurring on 25 December? Bowie's bodyguard called Klaus Nomi being the musician Klaus Nomi is in the same class of obvious facts. And since Wikipedia has no size constraints, why do you care whether these facts are included in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seantrinityohara (talk • contribs) 14:43, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I'm gonna chime in one more time, and then I'm gonna just let it be. Man In Black, I agree on a fundamental level that this is an encyclopedia and not a pop-culture reference guide (granted The Mantis Eye Project is a lot more fitting for that). But a lot of people (myself included) like the Cultural References section, because I love pop culture and like to see the things I missed. Now if you are going to demand that we have Doc, Chris or James post about a reference in their livejournal, mention it in a commentary, or a hardcore attributable source -- I think that's gonna take a lot of fun out of these articles, but it's tough to argue in an Encyclopedia, where concise information is key. But if you are gonna hold us to such scrutiny, I think we should just get rid of the Cultural References altogether so we don't piss off and drive off contributors (who may have much more to contribute on other articles) with sweeping axing and cold pragmatics. Just mein zwei pfennings, as always. Evilwillhunting (talk) 14:46, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Though the cultural references often get overdone, I'd say removing them is inappropriate as the show itself is extremely reference-dense - in fact it IS essentially one giant reference in its overall concept. Removing the obvious references and requiring them to be sourced to the creators diminishes the amount of useful information - far more than is obscured by trivial or speculative information. It's like requiring a comedian to explain a joke with a flow chart before you decide to laugh. In a different kind of show, they'd be more minimal or inappropriate, but not here. XWayfarer (talk) 17:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

We're not here to prove by demonstration that the show is dense with cult references, or document every fact that is arguably true. Instead of relying on an agreement of whoever's around that such-and-such reference is actual and such-and-such is speculative. Instead, we rely on the guidance of reliable sources, sticking to what is verifiable.

I'm not demanding that the show's creators be the ones who make the connection. Pretty much any reliable source can make the connections. I know nobody's writing peer-reviewed journals on the Venture Bros., but magazines (online or otherwise) and the like certainly suffice. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:23, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

You keep making the assertion that the facts in the Cultural Reference section aren't sourced, but when people point out specific examples where the source is the episode itself -- Bowie's bodyguard explicitly being Klaus Nomi; Sgt Hatred saying he's a "warrior" like Patty Smyth; Brock quoting the 120th Psalm -- you ignore the point.Seantrinityohara (talk) 16:18, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

"The source is the episode" is insufficient. That's the point. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 18:20, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's irony: An edit-crazy nitpicker removing every cultural reference from a very entertaining list of such references, delaring that only he knows "What Wiki Is", and then once the references have all been edited away and all the joy sucked out of the article, a post declaring "The plot summary in this article or section is too long or detailed compared to the rest of the article." Guess what, it wouldn't be too long compared with the rest of the article if the rest of the article hadn't been deleted arbitrarily by The Only Person Who Knows What's What. Sheesh. --- Omar, passing kibbitzer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.5.1.207 (talk) 15:35, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

That template means that we don't need to go through the episode joke by joke, not that the only thing in the article is plot summary. Picking out every call-out joke is plot summary, too. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 18:20, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

ManIn, you or other delete-happy folks have eliminated entries on this page that were not only NOT disputable but were helpful to readers as explanations of references made in the show. The call-out jokes are a large element to the show, and you demonstrate a fundamental lack of understanding in the subject matter and should leave the text written by other people alone. No, every single reference shouldn't necessarily be documented, but if someone else has documented one you should think long and hard about whether or not it's your right to delete it, rather than just going over it in broad strokes of petty deletion. This isn't your Wiki, its everyone's. And last I checked, the Internet wasn't about to run out of space, so there's no reason to keep things so damned tight and suck all the interest out of a subject. - Omar again —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.5.1.207 (talk) 18:40, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

That something is useful does not mean it belongs in an encyclopedia. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 18:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know many *real* encyclopedias that have entire pages dedicated to individual episodes of late night adult cartoons, so why fall back on that excuse and admit the fact that you hate fun.Beatmastermcfly (talk) 19:15, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia has a wider scope than most encyclopedias. However, that scope doesn't include things people noticed. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:15, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

face it dude, no one fucking likes you or your fascist edits. Go eat a dick and let other people edit these articles.

"Hunter Gathers's Car"

When I saw what Hunter's car could do, I immediately thought of the video game "Spy Hunter" as it also had a forward shooting machine gun and an oil slick it could use. When Brock shot a pedestrian car by accident (a common mistake in the game, causing you to stop gaining points for a set period of time) I felt this clinched it. Does anyone else feel the same? 144.13.101.203 (talk) 19:56, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd say it's more spy cars in general. Spy Hunter didn't have an ejector seat. But I'm pretty sure at least one Bond car had all 3 of these features. - CortJstr (talk) 16:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

It just seemed to be a very "stereotypical" spy car to me. I could easily see authors going "Hunter Gathers . . . spy . . . Spy Hunter! He needs a cool car," but it wouldn't be a reference. XWayfarer (talk) 18:59, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

It also loads into the X1 in a method similiar to the Spy Hunter when it boards the retrofit truck. This one is about as borderline as it gets -- remember that Spy Hunter was directly inspired by James Bond, and his Aston Martin could do the machine guns and oil slicks. But hey, won't fly on ..ahem... you-know-who's watch ;) Evilwillhunting (talk) 14:58, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Music References

The writers of The Venture Bros. love music references, and I caught a few that aren't mentioned yet: Molotov Cocktease's henchwomen are referred to as "The Blackhearts", no doubt a reference to Joan Jett and the Blackhearts; similarly ex-OSI agents 'Shoreleave' and 'Mile High' have redubbed themselves "Holy Diver" after the song and album by heavy metal artist Ronnie James Dio, and "Sky Pilot", after the song by Eric Burden and the Animals. I have a feeling there were more that I recongnized, but I forget them at the moment. I'd add them myself, but I'm a noob and don't wanna mess it up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.247.198.166 (talk) 05:22, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I added them, the only thing I changed, was the author of holy Diver, I changed it from Ronnie James Dio, to Dio. When I typed in 'Holy Diver' (to see if anything came up) it said 'Hoyl Diver is American heavy metal band Dio's debut album'. But if something needs to be changed, someone who knows them can do it. Tydamann (talk) 18:31, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Pixelated Hotel Name

Anybody know why the hotel sign is obscured and what it actually says? 82.45.53.159 (talk) 11:43, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I also noticed that, but it could be a few reasons, could of been a swear they had to censor, could of been a legal issue (maybe it said Motel8, and the company didn't want them to use the name in a violent scene), or maybe it was always meant to be censored as a in-joke just to make people talk about it. Tydamann (talk) 18:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I have been wondering about that for awhile, but came to the same conclusion as Tydamann. Hopefully we will get an explanation in the commentary of the 3rd season DVDs. Your Narrator for This Evening (talk) 17:59, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Tralfaz

I don't want to interfere with the epistemological dispute about what constitutes original research, but should sanity return (or this little tidbit gets published in a scholarly journal for citation), please note: Gathers gives Brock the false name "Jesús Tralfaz". Tralfaz was the birth name of the Jetsons' dog Astro. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.173.178.24 (talk) 09:26, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

"Should sanity return"-- Seriously! You guys have lost it. I hate excessive Wiki pages as much as the next guy, but you have to understand: It's all speculation. Take a chill pill. Don't be so authoritative. It's not the end of the world. Cripes... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dn655603 (talk • contribs) 03:52, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I doubt sanity will ever return, at this point. The fact that cultural references "need" to have some source in order to point out its a reference is an act of insanity as any - soon enough we'll need a source in order to back up a source of a source of a reference and that won't be enough. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.83.74.241 (talk) 08:22, 1 October 2008 (UTC)