Talk:The Awful German Language

Link to Audio file

At the bottom of the article, it gives a link to an audio file. However, the link sends you to the page for this essay on the Guttenberg site. Wouldn't a link to an actual audio file be better? There is one over at LibriVox (http://ia360624.us.archive.org/0/items/nonfiction_vol006_librivox/awfulgermanlanguage_twain_asb.ogg) which we could use. I wasn't sure if it was acceptable that I change the link in the article myself, after all, the person who included the link to Guttenberg may have had his/her reasons for doing so (I may have missed the audio file in the link), so I'm bringing it over here for discussion. Thanks.--macandal (talk) 17:14, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and you can note it is Appendix 54 of A Tramp Abroad on Librivox. -Anon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.180.121.100 (talk) 16:19, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

and of the mud, how deep he is!

This doesn't seem to make any sense in English and it doesn't seem to model any German peculiarity. Google Books gives a strong impression that until about 2003 most printed editions had "and oh the mud, how deep he is!" (My italics.) I wonder if this is due to an error in the Gutenberg edition [1] (which was 2004, though), an error in the 1880 edition it seems to be based on, or what else is going on. Hans Adler 18:52, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

1, 2, 3, 4 - "of". 5, 6, 7, 8 - "oh", etc. The third edition has "oh", but I have not found a first edition to verify. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:51, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, that seems to confirm my suspicion. Your finds with the reading "of" don't look like scholarly works that introduce a counter-intuitive new critical reading. They look more like the kind of books that might conceivably contain OCR errors. (By the way, being outside the US is a bit of a handicap with these Google Book searches, because Google is very cautious where the 1923 rule doesn't hold.) Hans Adler 23:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

If you notice, a few of them are just reproductions of the essay, so they have a source (i.e. the one they are reproducing). The first edition could say of and the third say oh, or they could all say oh. We need a first edition for verification. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:14, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

On the other hand, first editions often contain errors that were corrected later, often even by the author. We are free to use the best edition we can find, and I strongly suspect that it will read "oh". "Of" would make limited sense as a tortured English expression, but one that has no connection at all to German. An interjection, while still a bit odd, makes much more sense. Hans Adler 00:52, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Only authoritative revisions are acceptable, and even then there must be strong evidence. You have not provided anything on the first edition or anything about revisions by the author. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:49, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Have you or anybody else? This is silly. There is no evidence for the reading "of" before 2003. I don't see why we should prefer WikiSource, Project Gutenberg, "Sparklesoup Classics" or Lulu (publisher) over everything that came before them. The book by Guy Deutscher is a bit more serious, but it's by a linguist, not a literary scholar. I would have liked to contribute some real editing to this article, but this has become a quagmire. I am taking it off my watchlist now. Hans Adler 02:04, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Came before what? You haven't provided a first edition proof text to verify anything you have said. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:29, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Looks like it's 'oh': http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:1880._A_Tramp_Abroad.djvu/628 RubyQ (talk) 10:07, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Capitalisation

• Is there a reason why our quotations use normal English capitalisation? Both Wikisource and the Gutenbergproject capitalise the Words exactly as in German, which seems to make Sense. Hans Adler 18:56, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

• German does not capitalise more words in titles than elsewhere, and adjectives for languages are not capitalised. "Die Schrecken der Deutschen Sprache" would be "Die Schrecken der deutschen Sprache" in correct German. Do we know that he made this mistake himself? Hans Adler 19:05, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

It seems that outside the English-speaking world this speech is generally rendered in correct German capitalisation, e.g. [2]. So I will just correct it. Hans Adler 19:13, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

This is the English Wikipedia, not the German Wikipedia. We have standards here. MoS states that we must abide by the spelling and usage of the subject's native way of using English, which means that English capitalization is used according to American dictates on all titles as Twain is American. Please do not alter the page against the MoS consensus and push a POV that is inappropriate for the English Wikipedia. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:05, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I was talking about a German title of a talk that he gave in German. I would understand the argument that we must use the incorrect capitalisation because most English sources discussing the talk use it. I don't necessarily agree, because it's likely they simply get this wrong. But you seem to be arguing that it's actually correct to apply English title case rules to other languages when quoting foreign language titles in English text. If that's what you mean, I would like to know which passage of the MOS supports this.

By the way, this is my home Wikipedia. I have only recently become a bit more active at the German Wikipedia, and it still feels like a very strange place. Hans Adler 22:00, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

If this is your home Wiki, then you would know that we do not use German rules of capitalization. We use -English- rules of capitalization. Now, if you want to put forth a difference with American compared to, say, British, then you can. However, you cannot push German rules of diction here. The MoS is very, very clear about the matter. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:18, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and your claim about "correct" capitalization is completely inappropriate at the English Wiki. There is only correct in regards to English. No German rule is correct here. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:19, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

(ec) I am still not sure if we are talking past each other or what's going on. I am talking about this edit of mine, where I changed "Die Schrecken der Deutschen Sprache" to "Die Schrecken der deutschen Sprache" in a quotation in running text. Note that I did not touch the English translation of the quoted title. Is that what you are referring to as well? Hans Adler 22:33, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Per MoS, we capitalize based on the type of capitalization of the country that the individual is connected to. Thus, all titles of any work by Twain will be capitalized as American's capitalize -regardless- of the language it is written in. MoS is very clear on the matter. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Mark Twain held and announced his talk in German. In Vienna. If he announced it as "Die Schrecken der Deutschen Sprache" he committed an anglicism. If he announced it correctly as "Die Schrecken der deutschen Sprache" and we quote it as "Die Schrecken der Deutschen Sprache", then it's a misquotation that may cause readers who know German to think Twain committed an anglicism in the title.

I believe you are bluffing and I want to see your cards. WP:ENGVAR and WP:SPELLING make it very clear that they only speak about spelling of English text, and in quotations they don't even apply. For quotations, there is nothing in MOS that authorises deliberate changes of capitalisation, whether in foreign language text or in English text. And I am sure it would have been mentioned, since changing the style of quotation marks is mentioned explicitly in MOS:QUOTE under "Allowable typographical changes", and that's an even more minor change.

Of course you can always prove me wrong by pointing to a specific MOS section that proves your point.Hans Adler 22:53, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you haven't paid attention, but the work was printed and published. It was published in America. It was written by an American. It follows American capitalization rules. End of story. Yes, he makes fun of the German language and tears it apart. Okay, fine. Get over it. You don't have to try and violate the page and MoS standards. If you want to go to de and make the title with German capitalization, go ahead. However, English standard for an English writer's comments on anything follow their country's rules. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:29, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Mark Twain's essay in German did not appear as part of A Tramp Abroad. Our references here are both from 1993. Google Books gives me exactly 3 hits for "Der Schrecken der deutschen Sprache", and they all appeared in Germany. This does not seem to support your surprising claim that Mark Twain published the text of a German talk in America. Could you please provide the title and year of publication? Hans Adler 23:39, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Striking as I got the first word wrong in the search. It appears that the text was first published in German in 1893, then in America in 1933, with an all-caps title (avoiding the issue). Hans Adler 00:46, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

This, by the way, would show that the American capitalization is chosen for the article page if it is created. That also suggests that even German works written by Germans still have to follow English capitalization as per this. If you want to claim that the words aren't capitalized still, here is more. We are the English Wikipedia, not the German. Please remember that. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:37, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Your first link doesn't apply because it only talks about trademarks. Did you mean the second half of the first sentence at WP:NAME#Lowercase? Your second link has the crucial word "applicable" in it. You can't use it to justify the application of rules that would otherwise only apply to English text. The point of your third link is obviously that book titles that we use as page titles should appear exactly in the same way that they would appear when quoted in English text.

So all you have shown with your links is that if we want to follow the letter of the rules we need to find out whether one of the capitalisations is well established in English. That's in the (corrected) first link; the others are useless. But I maintain that this rule really speaks about well established English titles such as Arabian Nights, not about obscure foreign language titles that hardly ever appear in English text, and if they do are sometimes misspelled. The number of these misspellings simply doesn't reach the threshold where it would become correct. Hans Adler 00:27, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't particularly object to using German capitalization rules (en:wiki also uses French capitalizations for titles in at least some of its articles). The particular English language source cited used anglicized capitalization on the German title, so we copied that. Das ist mir egal. Durova²⁷⁹ 22:29, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Could you please also comment concerning my first point? That's much more important because it concerns the capitalisation style of a long passage rather than a single word. All sources that I have seen, with no exception at all, capitalise this like German text. Did you use a source that doesn't? If so, do you have reason to believe it's more authentic? Hans Adler 23:26, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

The sources and edits to this article are all accessible via the edit history. Durova²⁷⁹ 23:37, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I have gone through the edit history, that's why I asked you specifically. The edit comments do not indicate where you copied the text from, and I can't see it in the article itself. The article has a link to WikiSource, but it appears you retyped the text. Could you please answer the simple question of whether or not you have changed the spelling capitalisation yourself? Hans Adler 23:43, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

The only thing I did at Wikisource was correct a spelling error. Within the article quoted the German title of Twain's lecture as it appeared in the English language source. Could it be possible Twain followed English capitalization conventions in his German title? Der hat wirklich fast kein Deutsch gesprochen, nur Englisch mit Deutsche Wörter. Durova²⁷⁹ 00:13, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I think there is a misunderstanding. I was talking about the blockquote text that you added in this edit. It appears you typed it by hand ("int he mire"). It uses normal English capitalisation in Stead of the german Capitalisation that Twain obviously used for additional comic Effect. It would be a Shame to lose this Aspect without good Reason. Hans Adler 00:39, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps so, not a big deal imho. Happy with either capitalization. Durova²⁷⁹ 00:55, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

This proves that everyone besides the Germans use the capitalization with the exception of some capitalizing "der" in addition to the other words. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:44, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Neither Dixon Wecter [3] nor Albert Bigelow Paine [4] strikes me as a German name. Hans Adler 00:08, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Both of those have complete capitalization except for "der" (i.e. "Die Schrecken der Deutschen Sprache" as the article had it before you came), so neither verify what you are saying about the German capitalization being preferred. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:17, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Ooops! You are right, it's getting late in the UK. It's a pity I have no access to the Chicago Manual of Style. I am beginning to entertain the possibility that they have a silly rule that tells people to apply English title text rules even to foreign languages. Hans Adler 00:32, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

The alternative is that people simply get it wrong because they have to guess the capitalisation since the American edition they are using uses all-caps. I checked the AP Stylebook's entry on "compound titles". When applied literally it would indeed lead to English capitalisation for foreign titles, but the examples show that they didn't have this in mind. Hans Adler 01:15, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

<=I was the one who added Die Schrecken der deutschen Sprache to the Mark Twain article, and I added it incorrectly. I capitalized the 'd' in deutschen, even though the source used lower case. I have just corrected the Mark Twain article. The English source is a single-subject encyclopedia: "Die Schrecken der deutschen Sprache", in The Mark Twain Encyclopedia. I can't imagine how the Press Club of Vienna capitalized it after they heard the talk (maybe they received a written copy), but in our source, the 'd' in deutschen is lower case. That's as far as we have to look for the answer—everything else about big-D-this or little-d-that is conjecture. On a related note, I expect every German word in this article will be italicized. Binksternet (talk) 02:15, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

In English criticism and in English, the "Deutschen" is capitalized. We must abide by it as per MoS and this being the English Wiki. We also do not italicize foreign words. Ottava Rima (talk)

I see at WP:MOS under the Italics section that italics are used for foreign phrases or isolated foreign words uncommon to English.

"In English criticism and in English", you say the 'd' in Deutschen is capitalized. Fine. What we have in the article is the title of a speech by Twain. We follow his spelling and style—if he had written it Doychen we would represent it that way for readers here. We wouldn't correct it. Binksternet (talk) 15:20, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

To the first point - this is a title of a work by an American and published in America. The words are a title, so it would fall under the title's name. He published both versions of the speech side by side, as the humor was in the translation, so it has a dual title. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:54, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean by him publishing both versions side by side. Binksternet (talk) 19:20, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Go to google books. Type in the title. If you find a version of the text and not just a mention, you will see that it is a side by side published work (left German, right English), and that the title in America is dual. Thus, it no longer counts as "German" when used in the title - it has become subsumed into the English language in the same way "Fajita" or something similar has been. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:49, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

That's exactly what I thought you meant. I had already looked for such a dual presentation and found none. Perhaps you can show me the one you mean... Binksternet (talk) 20:03, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Here - visualize this as a book. 42 is German. 43 is English. 44 is German. 45 is English. Etc. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:05, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

So you're saying that the italics are not to be used? An interesting thought... What if I wrote an essay entitled

"Ich bin ein Berliner and its ramifications"

or similar? How would you italicize that? Binksternet (talk) 16:48, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

You wouldn't. The "Ich bin ein Berliner" would go in quotes, as it is a title of a speech that is not long enough to warrant italics as a title. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:14, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Awesome

Thanks for the great new article! Binksternet (talk) 01:07, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Ah, yes, I wanted to say that as well. But first I tried to help, and things got a bit strange...

As a German I can add that there are some aspects of the language that are so obscure that they don't even seem to be discussed in any of the grammars. E.g. some verbs have an alternative form of the past participle, and hardly anybody would be able to explain the rules governing its use. ("Ich habe die Welle kommen gesehen" = "I have y-seen the wave coming" = I was there when it came. "Ich habe die Welle kommen sehen" = "I have seen the wave coming" = I knew it would come.) My only excuse for this language is that I believe Russian and Arabic are even worse. Hans Adler 01:23, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Is the title verified to be correct?

Forgive me if this has already been discussed before but I've just seen it quoted as The That Awful German Language: --IM Serious (talk) 10:17, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

I've only seen the title written as "The Awful German Language." The example you cite appears to be from a web page that's been translated by a German, Gunther W. Frank, from a German translation of Twain's essay. In any case, it doesn't appear to be a reliable source. EnglishTea4me (talk)15:20, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Alright, thank you for clarifying this need to be skeptic. Are you sure it is translated? Why would one translate literature back and forth? The missing umlauts indicate American authorship. Can't we lookup the historic first print in a well-sorted bookshelf like the Library of Congress for the most trustworthy verification to resolve this? Or is the language melody so clear that Twain would never have chosen That? --IM Serious (talk) 15:41, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

You can find a scan of the 1880 edition here on Wikisource [5]--Mpaa (talk) 22:45, 22 March 2013 (UTC)