Talk:StoneToss/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Neo nazi

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Lol seriously i know he is antisemitic but seriously 86.114.207.170 (talk) 20:06, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes – because sources predominately call him such. See #RfC: first sentence. — Czello ^(music) 20:17, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Exactly. We did actually two separate reviews of the reliable sources we could find on him and it was clear that the most neutral and accurate reflection of how to refer to Stonetoss was as a neo-Nazi. We measured twice on that one and then held an RFC because assigning such a label to a BLP is not something to do lightly. But, yeah, according to reliable sources, the guy's a neo-nazi. Simonm223 (talk) 15:56, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

While I can agree there's sufficient evidence to include the term "neo-Nazi" in this article, I do feel the opening sentence could be rephrased a bit. As far as I'm aware, StoneToss hasn't exactly gone out of his way to define his views, so while his comics can be a reflection of his beliefs, given their "satirical" nature (whether or not you find them funny), it's hard to determine the extent to which he himself believes what he publishes. I think the term could better be applied to the comics themselves, since they are the source of the relevant viewpoints.

For example the introduction could instead read something like:

"StoneToss is a pseudonymous American political cartoonist who publishes a webcomic of the same name. The webcomic is often criticized for promoting neo-Nazi ideologies because its use of racist, sexist, transphobic, homophobic, and antisemitic views, including Holocaust denial, as part of its humor. V3513504 (talk) 01:43, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

We had a RfC about this and determined that on the basis of reliable sources that he should be referred to directly as a neo-Nazi. TarnishedPath^talk 01:46, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

I would suggest reading the RfC on this topic. The article uses the specific phrasing "neo-Nazi political cartoonist" as a reflection of the available sources, the majority of which refer to StoneToss (the person, not the webcomic) as a "neo-Nazi cartoonist". Ethmostigmus (talk) 08:12, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Should it not be evidenced by his work? I just went through his cartoons and I do not see anything neo nazis. It looks like editors are enganged in political war and are taking over narrative here. Shame for wikipedia. 193.28.84.20 (talk) 06:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Yawn TarnishedPath^talk 10:05, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

the whole neonazi labeling is basically what he makes fun of directly from his work, I believe we could state alleged "Neo Nazi" to compromise both sides as he on the news is called a neonazi despite the author having little to no neonazi affiliations BarakHussan (talk) 20:08, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

No. He's not an "alleged" neo-Nazi, he is a neo-Nazi. We don't need to "compromise" on facts. Facts are facts, we don't give equal consideration to people who deny them. Di (they-them) (talk) 00:26, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

You are currently alleging him to be one. News articles alleging stonetoss to be a neo-Nazi without any definitive proof aren't trustworthy either. Definitive proof is required for such an allegation to stick and be considered fact EveryoneIsNazi (talk) 08:26, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Incorrect. We say what reliable sources say. Simple as that. And no, that's not what fascism is. — Czello ^(music) 08:28, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I'll first need to find these "reliable sources" you're talking about, since it seems like none of them have definitive proof. Definitive proof is required for an allegation to turn into established fact.

Who are these "we" you're talking about right now? EveryoneIsNazi (talk) 08:38, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

The reliable sources are in the article, even in the first line - they're not difficult to find.

"We" = Wikipedia. — Czello ^(music) 08:40, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

These "reliable sources" allege him to be a neo-Nazi without proof. Where is the proof? EveryoneIsNazi (talk) 08:50, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

You'll have to ask them that, but presumably they apply that label based on the views he promotes. — Czello ^(music) 08:58, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. EveryoneIsNazi (talk) 09:00, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

There is no requirement that we WP:SATISFY you. TarnishedPath^talk 09:04, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

ok EveryoneIsNazi (talk) 09:10, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

The contention here isn't about disagreement as such, but rather the criticism, which any rational person can see, that Wikipedia is not in fact a neutral viewpoint and only feigns effort towards sticking to an unbiased factual basis.

This is one of many obvious examples of where extreme labels and epithets are overtly thrown around with absolute assertion, in reaction to some level of wrongthink or perceived (as opposed to substantiation or even simple observation with logic) behaviour as politically incorrect, with the only excuse and claim to authority being a singular overtly leftist "news" site, which is all that is relied on to pass off as unanimous informative consensus. Shame. 82.4.234.177 (talk) 19:15, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not neutral and it makes no pretense of being so. Wikipedia is biased in favor of facts that are backed up by reliable sources. We do not need to provide equal weight to "all sides" if one is inconsistent with reality. Di (they-them) (talk) 23:06, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Reliable sources that are not giving a proof? But we are relying on them because we called them 'reliable'. It does not have any sense.

Anyone who has working brain and can comprehend basic logic sees that 'neo nazi' label is political warfare here and is not related to any facts. It is extremely huge shame for Wikipedia that it is not only allowed but also defended. 193.28.84.20 (talk) 01:01, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

There's been an RFC on this. You can see the result at Special:PermaLink/1216015718#RfC:_first_sentence. As you can see there was a clear consensus to refer to StoneToss as a neo-Nazi. There is absolutely no need to compromise. TarnishedPath^talk 12:43, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

There is no consensus. The articles attached only provide empirical evidence. To add, keeping "anti-fascist groups" under the initial sentence alludes to these allegations. That is fair. 49.184.177.55 (talk) 07:52, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

There was a consensus at the link TarnishedPath just provided you. You might personally disagree with it, but it exists. — Czello ^(music) 08:18, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I fail to recognize how an underrepresented debate constitutes a consensus. Floristt (talk) 09:05, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how it was "underrepresented" as I count at least 11 editors taking part. The discussion was closed with a decision to include "neo-Nazi"; if you don't like that you'll have to challenge the existing consensus in a new discussion. As advice, though, I doubt you'll be successful. — Czello ^(music) 09:12, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

It's really embarassing how eager you seem to be to throw your fascist censorship around. I can count at least five editor that are against the libel you're so strongly advocating for, and all for what? Purposedly slander a satirical comic author?

Anti-semitism is not enough to be a neonazi 2001:B07:6472:25A2:B129:9A89:FC5A:D369 (talk) 13:27, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

What is being "censored", exactly? No censorship is taking place in this article. I also don't think you know what fascist means.

If you don't agree with how the phrase "neo-Nazi" is applied, you'll have to take that up with the sources. We just reflect what they say. — Czello ^(music) 13:30, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Let's take a look at that five editors thing for a quick second.

It's worth noting that of the registered editors that are leaning against the inclusion of his seemingly well sourced and well discussed status as a neo-nazi due to various reasons, of which there are 4 unless I've missed anyone, only one has edited anywhere else aside from this page on Wikipedia.

The same goes for the IP users. Of all the IP editors (including yourself) only one of them has edited anything other than this page and even then there was only one edit elsewhere. Of course this could be due to any number of factors, but it's worth noting nonetheless.

This of course does call into question whether, specifically for the registered editors aside from the one who has edited elsewhere, as to whether they were created solely to take part in this discussion, seeing as all of them began editing this page on the same day their accounts were created. CommissarDoggo^Talk? 13:43, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I can understand the issue, but as you said there may be other reasons - which, in my case, amount to not remembering my password and not wanting to go through the annoying process of recovery. Which you made me do anyway and I won't be thanking you for it. But let's not derail.

I do know pretty well what fascism is, and seizing media to weaponize them against your political rivals is exactly part of what fascism does. I am by no means a fan of the conspiration theories that Stonetoss spins, but labeling him as neo-nazi simply has no base. There are zero known connections between him and the Nazi party and zero known endorsment to their ideals. This much should be enough to make any neutral mind vote against calling him a neo-nazi.

I don't know why there are a handful of experienced Wikipedia editors here that seem hell-bent to encase a libel from left-aligned media as truth. Demeaning your rival is acceptable in politics, but shouldn't Wikipedia be above this level of pettiness? Alves Stargazer (talk) 18:04, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:AGF. This isn't some liberal agenda, and you need to stop thinking that we're doing things because Stonetoss is a "rival". We call him what the sources call him, simple as that. — Czello ^(music) 07:35, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Can I therefore edit Kamala Harris' profile to call her "incompetent DEI hire" and shield my behaviour behind "that's how some radical sources define her" and WP:AGF? Surely not.

Good faith would be writing that he's a cartoonist and, a few lines down, mention that he has been defined neo-nazi by some sources, which is how a neutral point of view is expressed. But this article opens with "he's a neo-nazi cartoonist" despite no evidence of him being one- there's just a couple of politically aligned newspapers defining him one. If he's ever caught marching in a KKK rally I'll stand with you. Alves Stargazer (talk) 12:05, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

You keep saying "radical sources", but WaPo isn't radical. It's been determined to be a reliable source. If you disagree, take it up at WP:RSN.

Also when sources describe him as being a neo-Nazi, we are able to say that in Wikivoice without saying "he has been described as such". There aren't sources I can see that are disputing the label. — Czello ^(music) 20:36, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

No. As per Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons, you can not simply throw insults to authors taking their detractors as reliable source, especially since he has a strong political alignment. It would be like calling Biden an election-stealer because the whole right-wing press depicted him as one.

Wired and the Washington Post are notoriously left-leaning media and especially Wired has an incredibly radical bias. Gnet itself, while decently reliable, only publishes articles bashing right-winged groups or perceived so. There is no single element of neutrality in this article, to the point I must ask for it to be rewritten properly. 2001:B07:6472:25A2:B129:9A89:FC5A:D369 (talk) 13:14, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Trying to call Washington Post left leaning is hilarious. Please stop. TarnishedPath^talk 13:19, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Oh, it was analyzed as such. check the source yourself: https://www.allsides.com/news-source/fact-checker-washington-post-media-bias

The fact you don't consider it left-leaning only means that your bias is of that a radical leftist. 2001:B07:6472:25A2:B129:9A89:FC5A:D369 (talk) 13:29, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Not a WP:GREL source. See WP:ALLSIDES. Don't you have better things to do? TarnishedPath^talk 13:48, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Don't you? Is your curriculum really gonna be "I want to trample any shard of integrity this platform has so that I can stick it to that author I really hate?"

Allsides is also used and referenced in Harvard social sciences, hearing an handful of extremists calling it unreliable is hilarious.

But sure, let's do your game. Here's the article on http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/The_Washington_Post, clearly stating that in 1970 was seen as left-winger, that during the 2007 elections they mostly sided with Obama and that in most US elections they endorsed Democrats. As I said, it's left-sided. Alves Stargazer (talk) 18:13, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Trying to argue that a publication is left-leaning because they sided with a president that increased overseas conflict is beyond inane. TarnishedPath^talk 02:01, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Is this your original research on the topic or do you have a source for it? Alves Stargazer (talk) 12:07, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Ultimately the Washington Post is considered reliable per WP:WAPO. Sources are not required to be neutral themselves to be reliable. — Czello ^(music) 07:43, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Indeed they are not, but when every linked sources is biased leftward it's enough to say it's not a npov, which would be mandatory in case of Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons Alves Stargazer (talk) 12:12, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

If you think WAPO are not reliable the best place to take that discussion is WP:RS/N. TarnishedPath^talk 23:40, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Lock this thread now. We're not debating this shit. Turtletennisfogwheat (talk) 12:35, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

@Turtletennisfogwheat I was considering just that a few hours ago, but it struck me that I am involved and I was hoping that someone who wasn't would close it. TarnishedPath^talk 12:39, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

@ScottishFinnishRadish can you please close this discussion. No useful discussion about improving the article is happening here. I'd close it myself but I'm obvoiusly involved. TarnishedPath^talk 02:01, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Closing it won't really have any effect other than people opening new discussions. Might as well keep it all in one mire. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:42, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

This is the perfect example of why I quit WP. A living person is labeled a neo-nazi, not a suspected neo-nazi, not an alleged neo-nazi, but just a straight up neo-nazi based on interpretations of art by journalists and political commentators, and even those who conduct RfC’s no longer see how unencyclopedic it is to use the interpretation of art to ascribe a derogatory, and probably slanderous, title to an artist, and it does not matter if the art in question is high brow or low brow.

It goes without saying this would not happen in the other direction: no matter how many right-wing publications call a manga artist a Stalinist, or a crypto-Stalinist, based on interpretations of comics, that title would never be ascribed to anyone who didn’t openly accept it. I am sure whoever made this edit is incredibly proud of himself or herself, but these little “wins” hurt the project as a whole.71.199.188.234 (talk) 17:48, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.