Talk:St. Catharines

Decew Falls and Mill

I just had a question that I wanted clarification for, is Decew Falls and the Mill a part of Thorold, Fonthill or St. Catharines? That area gets very tricky as to whether its St. Catharines, Fonthill or Thorold (parts are one thing and not the other varying even by side of the road) and I was just wondering if a source could maybe be found showing that the mill and falls is part of St. Catharines. --Wikifrogeditor (talk) 22:55, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

@Wikifrogeditor: I doubt that you'll care about the answer to this question literally more than a decade later but as far as I can tell Morningstar Mill is technically part of St. Catharines because it's owned by the city itself. All the sources I've ever found online describe it as part of St. Catharines, too. But it's basically right on the boundary to Thorold. In real life this is even weirder, because certain parts of streets before the mill are considered part of Thorold and other's aren't? At least as far as I can tell. My point is that it's not really that clear in real life, either. I'd argue you could make a valid argument that it's part of Thorold, but verifiability, not truth. Hopefully that helps anyone whose confused or at least validates their confusion. Sincerely, Clovermoss (talk) 00:47, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Captain Dick

I read in the article that one of the first settlers of St. Catharines was a man called Captain Dick. How did he get that name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.29.95.198 (talk) 03:21, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Captain Dick is Richard Pierpoint, a black Loyalist settler whose story really should be better known than it is. HTH Natty10000 (talk) 01:20, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Anthony Burns was a former slave and preacher who died there. Famous figure in US abolishtion. 2601:181:8301:4510:4888:1A5A:2F14:2ACB (talk) 15:15, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Rename page

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move. Mindmatrix 20:53, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Rename: St. Catharines, Ontario → St. Catharines

This is the primary use of the term, and possibly the only use. An internet search which excludes the terms "Ontario", "Canada", "Niagara" and "horseshoe" still finds nearly 400,000 hits, the first dozen pages of which are related to this city. Per WP:CANSTYLE, the city should have the undisambiguated title, which currently points here anyway. Mindmatrix 15:30, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

• Support as nominator. Mindmatrix 15:30, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support, per nom. Skeezix1000 (talk) 20:30, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support per nom. DigitalC (talk) 04:21, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Addressing Niagara Centre MP Overlap

The Federal and Municipal boundaries do not line up, and as such a section of the city is represented by Malcolm Allen. This area includes the Shaver Medical Facility, Brock University, and some local businesses and dwellings. These Municipal interests that are shared with the federal government fall under his constituency. Adding Malcolm Allen as second MPP representing St.Catharines. (Though it is up for discussion as to if he should be the first since his name does come alphabetically before Rick Dykstra SamichX 01:05, 20 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.38.190.233 (talk)

Please note that the Provincial riding of Welland (as of 2004) should end before entering the City of St. Catharines. If it is no longer different and Peter Kormos is an MPP for a section of St. Catharines, please note the distinction. SamichX —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.38.190.233 (talk) 22:50, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Short Hills Provincial Park

As far as i can tell from consulting various maps of SHPP, zero or almost zero of it is in St Catharines. The park would appear, to me, to be mostly in Pelham with a part in Thorold. There might be a tiny part on the southwest corner of the intersection of DeCew and Pelham roads that's in St Catharines but, if memory serves me correctly, that part of St Catharines is in private hands belonging to landowners who front on Pelham Road. Those lands are not part of the park. I definitely think it's erroneous to include Short Hills PP as a park in St Catharines, especially given that, by first approximation, about 100% of the park is not. 142.140.230.111 (talk) 20:49, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

As much as I love Short Hills and would love to claim it for St. Catharines, the comment above is correct. It does not appear to be located IN St. Catharines. According to the Ontario Parks website, its location is described as "Location: About 4 km southwest of St. Catharines, along the Niagara Escarpment. Access is via Cataract, Roland, or Pelham roads."

So in other words, the editor who removed it from the page is correct in doing so. Trainrekmatt (talk) 19:41, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

obesity?

Obesity should be under demographics. A city can't be obese. Only people can be. Get with the program yankee76. You seem to have a problem with Heritage's comments. I agree with Heritage. This belong's in a Canadian obesity topic not in St. Catharine Ontario. It is not current and is specious. It should be put in demographhttp://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Talk:St._Catharines&action=edit&section=6ic data or another topic altogether. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canadadan (talk • contribs) 00:07, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

First edit in three years and it's specifically about this issue and in particular me? Gee that's not too obvious now is it ^[1]? Uncivil comments aside, the content is notable and shouldn't be removed because one particular editor (most likely a resident of the area, as is often the case with removal of potentially negative info in city articles) believes "a city can't be obese". Who is saying that? Nowhere does it imply that the city is obese. The article states obesity is a city issue and backs it up with citations from reliable, unbiased sources. The fact is there was significant news coverage of St. Catharines being called Canada's fattest city in 2001, and the most recent study on the subject of obesity rates in Canada show that the obesity rate in the city is even higher as of 2008. No new statistics have been released - making it as current as possible. Also, if this was not a city issue, why did St. Catharines-Niagara create the TrekZone anti-obesity strategy as a result? [2] [3],[4]. Note in particular the part that says how Dr. Sheela Basrur, Ontario Chief Medical Officer of Health informed the city that 10-15 percent of all deaths in Niagara are linked to overweight or obesity. "According to combined data from the 2001-2003 Rapid Risk Factor Surveillance System surveys 54% of Niagara’s adult population (18-64 years of age) is classified as overweight or obese."

Seems to me that a city without an obesity issue wouldn't go to such lengths to combat it. It should also be noted that User:Mindmatrix also restored the deleted content, making this more than just my "problem with Heritage's comments". My problem was with his/her's removal of sourced content, for which there was already a consensus, not over whatever comments he or she happened to make. If you're looking to remove the content, I invite your reply citing Wikipedia guidelines (not just your opinion) as to why. Thanks. --Yankees76 (talk) 04:56, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

             At one time not too long ago, St. Catharines was noted
for having the highest number of doughnut shops per capita in all of Canada.
This could be linked to the obesity statistics! With the very poor economy 

though, many doughnut shops have closed, possibly leading to slightly lower

obesity statistics?
70.30.33.131 (talk) 01:33, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

An interesting theory, however obesity rates in St. Catharines actually increased when it was last measured in 2008 compared to 2001, and it increased in more cities than just St. Catharines. If anything a poor economy would increase obesity as lower income individuals would choose cheaper foods that often have higher fat and sugar content (fast food). --Yankees76 ^Talk 14:23, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Change picture

Could someone consider changing the lead picture of the city? That picture makes the city look like a 3rd world slum. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.29.1.20 (talk) 14:25, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Precisely why it's perfect. :P On a serious note, I strongly agree. --Matt0401 (talk) 22:22, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I've taken the initiative to sub in the image showing the corner of St. Paul & Queen. I think it is a much nicer photograph, and the photo used in the infobox should make the article look attractive and inviting. I understand 'why' the photo of the low level lot was chosen for the infobox, because it shows the city's skyline, and that the infobox image should show the skyline, but I think it is acceptable to use this photo instead until a better photo of the skyline becomes available. St. Paul Street and Queen Street are also very key features of the city, the corner shown in this photo is essentially our "Times Square". --Matt0401 (talk) 23:33, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Nickname and original name not mentioned in article

The generally used nickname for the city of St. Catharines is "St. Kitts". The original name of the city was "Grantham". The author Howard Engle uses the city name "Grantham" in his fictional "Benny Cooperman" books. I have no documentation for any of these points.70.30.33.115 (talk) 19:21, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Pop rank

The article's Introduction says is the 6th largest urban area in Ontario. But "List of the 100 largest municipalities in Canada by population" lists it as only the 17th largest (municipality). I think there's a mistake.--Solomonfromfinland (talk) 18:02, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

No. An urban area (note that as of the 2011 census, Statistics Canada refers to urban areas as population centres) is distinct from a municipality (which are referred to as census subdivisions. StatsCan data for Ontario: population centres, census subdivisions. Mindmatrix 21:27, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

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Edit request

Hello, I would like to have the following information added to the Government and politics section, under 4.1 Municipal:

On Monday, Oct. 27, 2014, Walter Sendzik was elected mayor of St. Catharines and assumed office in December 2014 .

I think this information would be a good fit after information regarding St. Catharines past mayors Tim Rigby and Brian McMullan. Without it, I feel there is confusion on the page about who is currently the mayor of St. Catharines. The section I am requesting to edit lists the city's past mayors, but doesn't provide information about when the current mayor was elected or when he assumed office.

Thank you for your consideration,

roblapensee (talk) 18:20, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Hi roblapensee. Your suggested edit meets Wikipedia guidelines and you should feel free to add it to the article. I reformatted the dates and citations slightly to comply with the Manual of Style.

On 27 October 2014, Walter Sendzik was elected mayor of St. Catharines and assumed office in December 2014.

Thanks! Altamel (talk) 18:34, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

References

Thanks for your help Altamel. This was my first edit request and edit to article.

Much appreciated! roblapensee (talk) 19:09, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Government and Politics Section

There is a small blurb regarding the composition of politicians as a ratio of residents. I feel that it's getting a bit biased. Can someone else take a look? 204.225.163.254 (talk) 17:54, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Reliability/relevance of Cinema Treasures

@Magnolia677: Since you thanked me for my removal of content here [5], I was wondering if you had an opinion on my edit here [6]. My instinct was to be cautious with anything that might be important to the history of the city and this content wasn't as blatantly promotional as everything else, so I restored it. But I'm still not sure of its relevance and I'm not sure about the reliability of Cinema Treasures. My instinct is that it's not an ideal source, but that's it better than some random blog. That doesn't mean it's nessecarily relevant, though. Thoughts? Clovermoss (talk) 00:57, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

@Clovermoss: The opening and closing of a theatre in a mall isn't really notable. The article would be improved if it were deleted. Cheers. Magnolia677 (talk) 08:26, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

@Magnolia677: Thanks. I tend to be indecisive that I'm actually doing the right thing a lot of the time and your input is very much appreciated. Clovermoss (talk) 14:34, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

@Magnolia677: By the way, what are your thoughts on the article rating? It's currently rated B-class, which I have literally no experience with, but "no major problems" doesn't seem accurate to me. I'd argue it's more a C-class but I've never seen anything actually rated B-class before (at least that I remember) so I was wondering if you had an opinion on that? I do plan on trying to substantially improve this. Clovermoss (talk) 01:24, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Communities

Moved from User talk:Clovermoss

Hi again. I noticed this edit and was thinking that although some of those places really are places (see [7]), many of the articles are one-line stubs that are of little benefit to readers. Do you think many of them should be redirected to the St. Catharines article? Cheers. Magnolia677 (talk) 08:15, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

@Magnolia677: Yeah, in hindsight I think I was being a bit overenthiuastic there. I'm probably going to restore some content about neighbourhoods and stuff. Some of them really are places like Western Hill. I was thinking they'd probably better as written text about said neighbourhoods instead of a cluttered list where some are neighbourhoods and others aren't. Not sure about redirecting them all (some already are redirects) but it's a good idea to consider, at least in some cases. I'm still figuring things out. The article's kind of a mess and it's making me lose my focus because I keep having different trains of thought. My understanding is that for neighbourhoods like this you'd need to meet WP:GEOLAND. Wikipedia:Reliability of GNIS data might also be relevant to this... since places like Burleigh Hill and a lock of the canal were labelled as "communities". Then again, those were completely unreferenced stubs. I'd say that your source seems more reliable about actual places even if there's some overlap (Montebello is basically downtown and the main thing I think of when hearing that is Montebello Park).

But do you mind if I move this discussion to Talk:St. Catharines? It'd likely be better there so the discussion isn't fragmented. Also feel free to restore anything if you think it should be there. I'm trying to be bold, but I don't own the article. Clovermoss (talk) 12:11, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

@Clovermoss: While I agree with you, that some of the neighbourhoods listed don't warrant their own articles, removing the entire list was perhaps a bit overzealous. There were some relevant communities, such as Facer, that should still be linked to the main St. Catharines page and improved as articles, or otherwise incorporated into the written text so they are not entirely lost. I do commend you for being passionate about this page :) Trappy (talk) 15:23, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

@Trappy: I agree with you, honestly. That's why I said "in hindsight I think I was being a bit overenthiuastic there". My passion stems from living in St. Catharines for six years and no longer being a teenager that should care about concealing that information. Anyways, it's nice to have input from other editors. I'm trying to make some bold changes so if anyone sees anything that makes them concerned, bring it up and we can discuss it. I appreciate feedback. Clovermoss (talk) 15:55, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm trying to be bold, but not reckless. Do you think North End St. Catharines should be redirected to Grantham Township? There could potentially be a section there about the "North End" of St. Catharines. Ideally there should be actual citations, though. Clovermoss (talk) 16:06, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Redirecting to Grantham Township does make sense to me. The facts regarding the North End should be incorporated into the Grantham article though. Trappy (talk) 21:14, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

@Trappy: I copied the content and then redirected it. Does that seem okay to you? I also put unsourced section because the North End article itself didn't have any references to begin with. One of my long-term goals is improving everything related to the Niagara Region, so I'll probably get around to it eventually. I just wanted to make sure I did what you had in mind, though. Clovermoss (talk) 04:18, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Just to clarify that my original intention was to basically describe neighbourhoods via text because the list didn't really seem ideal? Especially when the links that aren't redirects back to the article itself are short and unreferenced stubs. I think a little bit of context here would be a better alternative. But then I just ended up not doing anything after removing the list and I got distracted. It also depends on the amount of information I'm able to find in sources. If there's enough significant coverage, standalone articles make sense. If not it'd be best for everything to be here so a reader gets the best overview of the topic apart from 'x is a neighbourhood in St. Catharines in y direction".

Also this is pretty much me just thinking out loud here. You've been editing Wikipedia for 15 years so I doubt I'm saying anything you haven't heard before. It's cool that you also spent time living in St. Catharines, though. Sometimes it's a small world :) Clovermoss (talk) 06:35, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Infobox formatting/images

@Magnolia677: Do you have an opinion on the infobox formatting? I used {{clear}} to try and fix the image alignment in further sections, but the more I look at this the more unease I feel at the blank space. I'm also trying to follow MOS:IMAGELOC so that images aren't placed to the left side. But ideally, someone shouldn't be scrolling so much to get down to the content. It might prompt someone to think that's all there is. Any ideas? Clovermoss (talk) 06:09, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

@Clovermoss: Thanks for your hard work on this article. I removed the "clears", as they made the formatting a bit wonky. I totally agree that it's best to avoid sandwiching images beside the infobox, but sometimes it's hard to avoid, so I moved the church image back to the history section, on the left, but because it's upright it doesn't do a lot of harm. There's really no other place in the article for it. If the image is on the right, it drops below the infobox (I'm on a widescreen). If the sandwiching is a problem let's find someplace else for the picture. I also removed one image of a non-notable church.

Another concern is the image gallery, which is not always recommended (see WP:IG ). At least one of the images in the gallery is a duplicate of an image already in the infobox. All the gallery images could easily be moved into the article.

Also, the collage in the infobox is not great. Some of the images don't really show a lot of the city. In a big article like this, I prefer one infobox image, with others moved back into the article. Your input and that of others would be great. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:41, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

@Magnolia677: Thank you! It's always good to have a second opinion on that. I think sometimes I have a hard time doing what I visualize because I don't feel like I have someone to bounce ideas off of. So I appreciate your input. In regards to the cathedral, I don't think it's nessecarily non-notable [8][9][10]. I admit I may be a bit biased because I took the photograph of the cathedral, though. This reminds me of something else that I've been concerned about. So, Alun Hughes was a local historian that was a professor at Brock University, so I don't think his expertise should be discounted or nessecarily undue weight... but he also seems to be the only source I've been able to find that thinks the orgin of the name Catharine for St. Catharines is ambigious. Other sources, like Britannica, definitively state the orgin of the name as Catharine of Alexandria. [11] Personally, I have a hard time believing that a bunch of religious people settling a city in the 1800s and calling it St. Catharines wouldn't have named it after the saint, even if they didn't explicitly state that that was the reason.

I will think about the collection of images in the infobox a bit more. I didn't do anything in regards to that but I might be able to curate it a bit better. I'll also think about the image gallery. Clovermoss (talk) 13:15, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

@Clovermoss: Yes, the church has a unique importance. Please add the photo back if you like. Magnolia677 (talk) 13:30, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

@Magnolia677: I'll think about it. I'm still worried about all the images messing things up, formatting-wise. Any thoughts on the orgin of the name issue that I mentioned in my previous comment? I also tried to do something about the collage of images in the infobox... do you think the replacement works better? Clovermoss (talk) 14:16, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

@Clovermoss: I'm not sure where the name came from. The infobox image is not great. It's low resolution, and mostly shows a parking lot and some old buildings. And it's 16 years old. What do you think of either of these: [12] or [13]? Magnolia677 (talk) 20:31, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

@Magnolia677: It may 16 years old but it still mostly looks like that there (the Meridian Centre is noticeably missing now that I'm taking a closer look). Geez, I didn't realize the photo was that old. I must admit I'm not great at telling the visual difference between low and higher resolution images. I will say I like the first image better than the second. Do you have a preference? I'm assuming that the skyline paremeter means a skyline-like image is what should be there. Taking a look at the category on Commons... I wish someone could just take a photograph of some of my memories instead. It's not that they're bad... it's just I wish I was a better photographer so I could capture what I'm thinking would be a good idea.

I'll think about what to do about the orgin of the name text. I'm going to be really busy for the next week because I've been procastinating certain tasks I should've been doing more this week, so it might take me a while to get back to you. Go ahead with selecting an image you think is fine in the meantime. Clovermoss (talk) 00:03, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

@Magnolia677: So I've done some more digging and it isn't just the one source. I still feel a bit uneasy about saying that it's definitively unclear (since there are sources that simply state that it's Saint Catharine of Alexandria), but maybe a bit more time will help? I just wanted to give an update and bring up that I'm still thinking about what to do in regards to this. This kind of reminds me of a situation I had once where someone's birth place was contradictory depending on the source... if I can remember where that happened and what I was advised to do by someone else, I might have a solution. Clovermoss (talk) 11:55, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Orgin of name

@Magnolia677: So I tracked down the situation I mentioned earlier [14]. It doesn't really seem like that would nessecarily be as helpful as I thought it might be. Clovermoss (talk) 13:48, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Twelve Mile Creek

I agree with Pladat that Twelve Mile Creek (Ontario) is an important creek to the city. [15] I've been trying to research more of St. Catharines history the past few months, but part of the early Welland Canals relied on it, it was a important part of the formation of downtown St. Catharines, etc. Most of my efforts have been trying to improve local articles instead of the main one here so I can give a better overview to what's relevant to the overall history of the city. If it's not here, I think this content should at least at the article about the creek (which it is). Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:49, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @Clovermoss I must admit that I am new to editing Wikipedia. However, I do not understand why @Magnolia677 thinks an Indigenous name for one of the defining geographical features of St. Catharines does not fit in the article. 12 Mile Creek is almost fully confined to St. Catharines. passes along the west side of the downtown, exits at Port Dalhousie, was an important part of the first and second Welland canals, and serves as an outlet for water from the DeCew falls generating stations, making it a feature of significance.

My reason for adding the information in question in the first place was because the article had hardly any information on Indigenous history and presence in St. Catharines. 12 Mile Creek is part of that history and presence. Pladat (talk) 04:36, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

The edit said, "St. Catharines lies in the traditional territory of the Mississaugas Indigenous people, who named what is now known as 12 Mile Creek "Ashquasing," which means "that which lies at the end" in the Anishinaabe language." The territory of the Mississaugas stretched from Windsor to Montreal. Are we going to add translated names to every non-notable river and creek in this enormous length of land? This article isn't even about 12 Mile Creek, it's about St. Catherines. The French also claimed this land for a while, and had French names for many geographic locations, but it would be unencyclopedic to add to city articles the French translations for non-notable creeks running through the city. This edit is out-of-scope, per WP:VNOT and WP:TOPIC. Magnolia677 (talk) 12:03, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

The creek is notable, though. It has its own article and is important to the history of the city. It's not some random creek and I don't think WP:VNOT and WP:TOPIC applies here. [16][17][18]. This creek is vital to the early history of the city, especially when you take into account stuff like the early spa businesses that thrived here like the Welland House Hotel. I really don't think a single sentence describing these details like this needs to be ommitted. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 12:40, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

My mistake, the creek is notable, and the Indigenous name has been added to Twelve Mile Creek (Ontario), where it is relevant and encyclopedic. It's elevation, basin size, and various other facts about the creek are also mentioned on Twelve Mile Creek (Ontario), but these facts--like its Indigenous name--would be out-of-scope on the St. Catherines article. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:01, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

So the creek stretches throughout the entire city and is basically a defining feature. It is St. Catharines in a way. I guess my perspective on why it would be important to mention the Indigenous name would be because the creek was important in St. Catharines actually becoming a city. I think it's different from other facts about the creek because it was basically a previous name for the surrounding area. There's a reason a lot of content about the early history of the city brings this information up. That's why I didn't really think it was out of scope.

But if we're not going to mention the name of the creek, I agree with Pladat that there should be something about the early history of Indigenous peoples here. Like treaties and whatnot that resulted in the formation of St. Catharines. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 01:04, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

You are welcome to expand the article, as you have done so well already. My concern is using reliable sources, and remaining on-topic. The previous edit mentioned the translated name of the creek, with no context regarding its significance to the city. In other words, if a reliable source supports that Indigenous people had a settlement on the banks of the creek within St. Catharines, and had a unique name for the creek at that settlement, then inclusion is obvious. However, if Indigenous people merely had a name for the creek, that seems pretty out-of-scope for this article. Magnolia677 (talk) 09:32, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

So I very much want to get any potential content added to the content to be as accurate as possible and I found this quote from Sacred Feathers. It's a book published in 1987. I need to try and dig deeper but I'd appreciate knowing both what Pladat and Magnolia677 think. Pladat, any chance you have access to sources that discuss local Indigenous history in detail that might not nessecarily be easily available online that could make this any easier?

Shortly after its agreement with the Missasaugas the government of Upper Canada established two new townships on the lakefront: Nelson, named in honour of England's famous admiral, and Trafalger, named for his great naval victory over Napoleon in 1805. When they named the two townships immediately north of of Trafalger and Nelson, however, they retained the Missasaugas' titles for Twelve Mile (Bronte) and Sixteen Mile (Oakville) creeks and along the Credit River. The government accepted these conditions. [...] But through ignorance they reversed the names.

— Smith, Donald, [19]

.

My reading of this (given the Bronte label) is that they're actually talking about Bronte Creek, not the Twelve Mile Creek in St. Catharines since the name given in the source is also Ashquasing. The Oakville label for the second river cements this opinion. I can see why this would get confusing since the Niagara Region also has a Twelve Mile Creek and Sixteen Mile Creek. Unless the Indigenous names were also reused like the English names were? But without another source that verifies that, that's just pure speculation that doesn't belong in the article. But I could be confidently wrong again, so please correct me if that's the case. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 13:12, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

@Clovermoss The part of Sacred Feathers I am referencing lists Anishinaabe place names in Mississaugas of the Credit territory. It indicates that the 12 Mile Creek on the north shore of lake Ontario, called Bronte Creek, and the 12 Mile Creek in the Niagara region have the same name: https://imgur.com/a/o2v28SL .

At this point I think it would be of interest to note that St. Catharines is covered by the Between the Lakes Treaty, which opened up the land to the loyalist settlement described in the Wikipedia article for St. Catharines.

Mississaugas of the Credit has a current claim to all bodies and courses of water within their territory, which includes 12 Mile Creek. A map of the claim and further information can be found here

Regarding settlement, articles for Kitchner, Hamilton, Niagara-on-the-Lake, and Grimsby all make reference to Mississaugas of the Credit history despite a lack of known historical Mississaugas of the Credit settlements in the immediate area. Pladat (talk) 15:40, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

I deleted the unsourced content from Grimsby, and tagged the unsourced content at Niagara-on-the-Lake. Let's be sure all content added to this article is reliably sourced. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:17, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

@Pladat: In regards to the Twelve Mile Creek in St. Catharines also having the same name in the Sacred Feathers book... I can only see snippets of text through Google Books because I do not own the book itself. Is it possible if you could tell me what page it is on and maybe include a brief quote like I did above? Thank you for telling me about the Between the Lakes treaty. I will see what I can do to include something related to that within the article. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 05:26, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@Clovermoss I do not own the book either, but borrowed it from the library. I can see about getting my hands on it again, which should not be hard. Pladat (talk) 06:12, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@Pladat: I'll let you do that and I won't place an interfering hold :) It's a bit more out of the way for me to visit the library nowadays with my work schedule the way it is, anyways. But it's always good to think of the free options. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 06:17, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@Clovermoss

Page 256 (Appendix 3) of Sacred Feathers:

"As Currently Known in English: Twelve-Mile Creek (St. Catharines), As Pronounced by the Mississaugas: Esquesink, Significance: Last creek in going down lake, Source: Augustus Jones

Page 257 (Appendix 3) of Sacred Feathers:

"Basil Johnston's Comments... Twelve-Mile Creek (St. Catharines), "Ashquasing," "that which lies at the end"; this is the same word as that for Bronte (Twelve-Mile Creek).

I can also provide a quote for Forty-mile Creek's (in Grimsby, ON) Anishinaabe place name if doing so might help the inclusion of Indigenous history in the wikipedia article for Grimsby. Pladat (talk) 21:48, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

@Pladat: Thank you for confirming that the name is accurate for the Twelve Mile Creek in St. Catharines as well. I think it'd help convincing the other editor about the relevance of this information if you could find something somewhere about why this specific creek was important to the Mississaugas. Do you know of anything like that?

As for Grimbsy, since they said the removed unsourced content, citing a source there might make it more likely to stay. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 07:59, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Anyways, I did add some brief content about the treaty you mentioned here [20] Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 06:32, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@Magnolia677: I think your definition of out of scope is way too broad here [21]. I disagree completely. Just because it covers an area larger than St. Catharines doesn't make it not relevant. I'm going to ask for a third opinion. Buidhe, what are your thoughts? I know you do much more content work than I do. Maybe I'm too adament about this and actually wrong. But I really do think it is important to mention something about the history of Indigenous peoples in an article about a place. Maybe this isn't the best way of doing so but I thought it was an uncontroversial start to having something. Do you have any advice? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:27, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@Clovermoss: How about a compromise? You add the "Between the Lakes Treaty" to this article, and I add the Treaty of Paris (1763). While St. Catharines is not specifically mentioned in either of those treaties, and while both those treaties involved a piece of land much larger than St. Catharines, what both these treaties do have in common is that if you look at a map of the affected areas, St. Catharines would be within the boundaries of the treaty (even if it isn't named). Or, we could agree that adding either of these enormous treaty areas to St. Catharines is unencyclopedic and of no benefit to readers, per WP:NPOVHOW, because neither of these treaties had anything to do with St. Catharines, except that St. Catharines (and Dunnville and Port Maitland and Burford and 1000 other communities) happened to be located withing the enormous treaty area. Magnolia677 (talk) 19:59, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@Magnolia677: That's a false equivalance. The treaty was a direct precursor to the settlement of St. Catharines. Without the treaty, there would be no city. I don't understand how you think this is out of scope. I really don't get it. Read the diff again, maybe? Seriously the city didn't just have American Revolution settlers out of nowhere. I disagree completely that this is "unenyclopedic and of no benefit to readers". Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 20:24, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@Clovermoss: Do you have a source supporting that St. Catharines would not have been settled by Europeans if not for this treaty? Magnolia677 (talk) 22:13, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@Magnolia677: The source I cited in that diff makes it pretty clear that the Crown was negotiating the treaty with the intent of settlement. [22] The source does indicate that current-day St. Catharines falls within the boundaries of the treaty (a city which did not exist in 1782 when the treaty was signed). Again, given what the following content in the diff is [23], I can't understand the argument that this information is somehow out of scope. Land granted for settlement -> settlement. This article would be incomplete without context about what happened in the area before European settlement. Look at articles like Toronto. The lead mentions the Toronto Purchase. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 22:33, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@Clovermoss: I reverted my edit, and made additional edits. I'd appreciate your input. Thanks. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:50, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@Magnolia677: Thank you for restoring the content in question. At a glance, I don't have any issues with the additional edits. Going back in time, is there something I could've said that would have made what I meant more clear? I'm not really used to disagreeing with people on content-related issues because usually nobody really cares about the articles I edit that much. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 07:52, 8 January 2023 (UTC)