Talk:Scots Guards

Historical content split into multiple pages

Is it strictly necessary that the history of the Guards be split into five different pages (including this one)? If no one objects, I'd prefer to merge them all into a single History of the Scots Guards page, with a short summary on this page. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 19:03, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Motto

'No one assails me with impunity'. A better translation of the motto is 'No one touches me with impunity'. The Latin dictionary says that lacessere means to assault or assail; but the motto of the Regiment is the motto of the Most Noble Order of the Thistle, whose star the Regiment wears. You cannot touch a thistle without being pricked. It implies the aggression of the Scots Guards in that you cannot touch, provoke or upset a Scotsman without punishment. 'Assails' is a rarely used word, and does not have the connection with the prickles of a thistle.

Another meaning of 'touches' is 'borrows': "Can I touch you for a fiver?" Heraldry is replete with puns, and this could be one. Scotsmen are supposedly known for their care with money, and so the motto 'No one touches me (ie borrows from me) with impunity' has another abstruse meaning.

I will change the translation of the motto unless anyone has strong objections. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ballenstedter (talk • contribs) 00:39, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Under A 2020 Refine

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/756501/04550.pdf

Sammartinlai (talk) 12:46, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Under the Army 2020 Refine plan, 1st Battalion the Scots Guards will not rotate between State Ceremonial and Public Duties as is the case with other Foot Guards regiments. Instead, it will be based at Catterick and operate as a mechanised infantry regiment using the Boxer and form up as a Strike Brigade.

Placing it here cause it is future. Sammartinlai (talk) 08:27, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

References

Structure

• 1st Battalion
  • IV (Headquarters) Company
    • Signals Platoon
    • Mechanical Motor Transport Platoon
    • Quartermaster's Department
    • Other Departments
  • I (Right Flank) Company
  • II B (Support) Company
    • Reconnaissance Platoon
    • Mortar Platoon
    • Machine Gun Platoon
    • Anti-Tank Platoon
  • III (C) Company
  • VIII (Left Flank) Company

Not needed

Sammartinlai (talk) 14:20, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Peter McBride

I have changed the wording of this section as it violates WP:NPOV

The original wording cannot stand unless you add further detail about McBride's background and the fact that the two Guardsmen were released early and stayed in the Army.TopGun1066 (talk) 09:02, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Numerous points, for the benefit of anyone else who thinks more content needs to be added to the article.

• The background of Peter McBride. He is described as a "well-known petty criminal with no links to the IRA". I have no particular objection to the inclusion of this, but I will point out its inclusion only serves to make the two Scots Guards look even worse.
• The two Scots Guards being released early. Were they exonerated? Were their convictions overturned on appeal? Those are both rhetorical questions to which the answer is "no". Although not released under the Good Friday Agreement itself, their releases were linked to it, since there would have been significant objections to keeping them in prison at the same time as releasing paramilitary prisoners.
• The two Scots Guards staying in the army. Per the Guardian reference for the background of Peter McBride, this was a controversial decision, described as wrong by a military watchdog, and subjected to repeated legal challenges. Given the controversy surrounding that decision, a bare "they stayed in the Army" type piece of text is insufficient.

During their time in Ireland, Scots Guards were involved in contentious shootings, including that of Peter McBride is a wholly unaccpetable summary of events, and I have restored some detail. It is simply unacceptable to leave out the murder convictions entirely and leave the reader wondering if any action was ever taken. Per the points above, I am happy to discuss further whether more is needed but I don't believe this article should go into excessive levels of detail. FDW777 (talk) 15:07, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

It is not 'unaccpetable' to state that a) there was a contentious killing, and b) the name of the person killed. Adding too much information like this goes into a tit-for-tit partisan diatribe. I have amended the paragraph accordingly.Goldielabrador (talk) 09:55, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Two soldiers were convicted of murder. That's a fact. It's not acceptable to leave that out. FDW777 (talk) 09:58, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

McBride is covered comprehensively at History of the Scots Guards (1946–present). Including too much detail in the main article on the Regiment is too much text and repetition. See WP:MOS Goldielabrador (talk) 10:06, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Eight words in the same sentence is not "too much detail", especially since the exclusion of those words gives the impression the facts of the case are in dispute. They are not. Peter McBride was murdered by two Scots Guards, who were convicted and jailed. FDW777 (talk) 10:14, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

And in wholly expected news, Goldielabrador is a confirmed sockpuppet of TopGun1066, see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/TopGun1066. Should any editor in good standing wish to continue the discussion, I am happy to do so. FDW777 (talk) 12:31, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Also for anyone unfamiliar with British Army murder convictions during the Troubles, that's probably quite understandable since there were so few of them. So on the rare occasions they did happen, they are worth documenting properly. "Properly" of course meaning mentioning the fact the murder convictions occurred, instead of Scots Guards were involved in contentious shootings, including that of Peter McBride which leaves the reader wondering if anything ever happened regarding the shooting. FDW777 (talk) 21:33, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Only 2 battalions?

The accounts of the regiment's history in the two world wars seems to indicate that there were only two battalions deployed throughout. Is this correct? Valetude (talk) 13:59, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

No, the 'peacetime' strength was the RHQ, Band, Depot Company, and 2 x battalions. A 3rd battalion existed at three times: 1st time during the expansion of the army in the late 19th century (1899-1906), then as a reserve battalion for public duties and defence of London (1914-1919), and a third time during the Second World War (1940-1946). A 4th battalion also existed during that war (1940-1943), and a Hold Battalion, which was an expansion of the Depot and RHQ (1940-1943). J-Man11 (talk) 23:14, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Batang Kali massacre

Hi - While not wanting to whitewash the involvement of the Scots Guards in the Batang Kali massacre, the content relating to the massacre is now twice the length of the two world wars added together. This is classic case of WP:UNDUE. The normal process in such circumstances is to create a fork i.e. create a new article on the topic (this has already been done: there is an article on the massacre), to move the details to the new article and just to include a summary in the main article. Dormskirk (talk) 09:00, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree: This is a 42Kb general article on a regiment with a 300 year history. It doesn’t need a 4.9 Kb account of a single incident which is already covered in its own article, the linked Regimental History article, and the Malayan Emergency page. So I have trimmed it to a one-sentence summary and link (matching similar treatments on similar incidents on similar unit history pages. I trust everyone is OK with that. Xyl 54 (talk) 22:59, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Regimental Colonels

@Opera hat: Seeing that you've changed the dates of the colonelcy of Linlithgow based on Dalton's The Scots Army, I thought I'd check a source in my library; Leslie, N. B. (1974). The Succession of Colonels of the British Army from 1660 to the Present Day. London: The Society for Army Historical Research. pp. 38–39. Leslie lists Linlithgow as starting in 1660, as the previous entry to your edit did. Leslie in fact provides several dates differing to those currently in the list, provided in full below, and I wonder what's actually correct? Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 16:13, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

• Major-General George Livingstone, 3rd Earl of Linlithgow: 23 October 1660
• Lieutenant-General Hon. James Douglas: 23 October 1684
• Lieutenant General Hon. George Ramsay: 1 September 1691
• Lieutenant-General William Kerr, 2nd Marquess of Lothian, KT (Lord Jedburgh): 25 April 1707
• General John Murray, 2nd Earl of Dunmore: 10 October 1713
• General John Leslie, 10th Earl of Rothes, KT: 29 April 1752
• Field Marshal HRH William Henry, 1st Duke of Gloucester & Edinburgh, KG: 16 December 1767
• General John Campbell, 4th Earl of Loudon: 30 April 1770
• Field Marshal John Campbell, 5th Duke of Argyll (Marquess of Lorne): 9 May 1782
• Field Marshal HRH William Frederick, 2nd Duke of Gloucester & Edinburgh, KG, GCB, GCH: 26 May 1806
• General George Gordon, 5th Duke of Gordon, GCB (Marquess of Huntly): 12 December 1834
• General James Ludlow, 3rd Earl Ludlow, GCB: 30 May 1836
• Field Marshal Francis Albert Augustus Charles Emmanuel, Duke of Cambridge, KG, KT, KP, GCB, GCSI, GCMG, GCIE, GCVO: 23 September 1852
• Field Marshal Sir Alexander Woodford, GCB, GCMG: 15 December 1861
• General Sir John Aitchison, GCB: 27 August 1870
• General Henry Robinson-Montagu, 6th Lord Rokeby, GCB: 13 May 1875
• General Sir William Thomas Knollys, KCB: 26 May 1883
• Field Marshal HRH Arthur William Patrick Albert, Duke of Connaught & Strathearn, KG, KT, KP, GCB, GCSI, GCMG, GCIE, GCVO, GBE, VD, TD: 24 June 1883
• Field Marshal Paul Sanford Methuen, 3rd Lord Methuen, GCB, GCMG, GCVO: 1 May 1904
• Field Marshal HM King George VI (when Duke of York): 31 October 1932
• Field Marshal HRH Henry William Frederick Albert, Duke of Gloucester, KG, KT, KP, GCB, GCMG, GCVO: 12 March 1937

I've given exact dates from the Gazette for the later colonels. I'll dig up better references for the earlier ones soon. Opera hat (talk) 22:00, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Dunmore 10 Oct 1713: 1740 Army List p. 15

Rothes 29 April 1752: 1754 Army List p. 33 (21 on the NA microfilm; click on "preview an image of this record")

Gloucester 16 December 1767: 1768 Army List p. 52 (32)

Loudoun 30 April 1770: 1771 Army List p. 52 (58)

Argyll 9 May 1782: 1783 Army List p. 68 (57)

Gloucester 26 May 1806: 1807 Army List p. 107 (79)

Opera hat (talk) 23:12, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

The January 1937 Army List shows that the colonelcy was vacant after the Duke of York became King and assumed the colonelcy-in-chief in December 1936 ("No. 34351". The London Gazette. 18 December 1936. p. 8189.). Opera hat (talk) 22:20, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Murder of Peter McBride

An editor keeps removing properly sourced material about the murder of Peter McBride. Two members of the regiment were convicted. If there is an issue with this, it should be debated here rather than by deleting the material. See the discussion above for further detail. Dormskirk (talk) 12:02, 23 November 2023 (UTC)