Talk:Sadistic personality disorder

Dinosaur Crunch ice cream?

I was just reading this article, and it said something about enjoying Dinosaur Crunch Ice cream. I haven't read the book, but I'm pretty sure it didn't say that in there. :| —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.116.232.137 (talk) 01:00, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

MeThinks...

I think this has been a bit graffitied.... Cheesypot 21:33, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

The Washington sniper personality profile

I have removed the link to the Washington sniper personality profile because the profile turned out to be wildly inaccurate ("most likely a white male in his thirties,"). This is the kind of stuff that gives psychological profiling a very bad name. The link had obviously been included because it contained a lot of clinical theory from other publications. It would be better to find a less mistaken article to link to for this. Ireneshusband 20:32, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I have reverted the above change. I overreacted. I have a definite prejudice against this kind of profiling at a distance with little knowledge of the person concerned, but for all I know most of the profile is sound (apart from the age and race of course). Ireneshusband 20:45, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow

Everything in this is basically an exact description of me! Wow I didn't think anyone was like me! Luke Mepham 15:31, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

As the son of a woman who scores 8/8 for this, and not any other psychological problem, I pity those around you unless you work really hard at tempering these traits.

If you're like my 70 year old mother, you'll end up with a) not a friend in the world (literally), b) relatives who only tolerate you because they have to, and many who will hate you with a passion. Try not to see love as 100% transactional, and try not to go "crazy" when you start to lose your control over someone (e.g. when they go off to college).

And good luck in life, you'll need more than a little. Hga 11:38, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Many of these behavioral traits seem to be present in the editors of cyberbully sites like Something Awful and Encyclopedia Dramatica. One can only wonder what these individuals would do once the thrill of tormenting random Internet users wears off... --M.Neko 00:17, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

If they truly have SPD, they are already behaving in the real world like that. But it should be emphasized that SPD is about control expressed in sadistic ways. I would suspect that the lack of control that is inherent in the Internet would make it a less attractive venue for people with SPD than the normal real world. It's just too easy for e.g. someone to simply ignore a web site like Something Awful, and I think someone with SPD would find that intolerable. Hga 11:21, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Most cyberbullies seem to be "socially frustrated" teenagers. I do not believe Sadism is purely about dominance.. it also refers to a passion for "personal revenge" against those who cross you, and some level of a creative reward. Some sadists do not lie to provoke others, in staid, take great pride in their extreme (though hurtful) level of honesty, despite that, not all sadists are outwardly possessive of the majority people around them, nor is there evidence to suggest that. 76.17.99.145 (talk) 18:30, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

What am I?

I like to see ppl suffer, but only ppl i hate, not my friends, i would give my life for them, but i real realy like to see ppl i hate suffer, it brings a smile to my face, and i want them to cry, and know that i am the reason they are suffering, but it isnt sexual pleasure, just like, a realy good feeling of happiness.

No idea, but something other than SPD. With SPD, it's "nothing personal", the person with it treats everyone in their life about the same (social pressures will curb some of the worst with people at e.g. work as opposed to family).

Also, read the article again closely. SPD is not about causing people to suffer. It's about controling them, in ways that as a side effect make then suffer. Hga 13:13, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

The first commenter sounds motivated only by revenge, which is not the motivation for people with this disorder, even though some sadists sometimes take revenge. People with SPD will victimise at every opportunity - often seeking out and targeting the vulnerable - it is nothing to do with liking or disliking the victim. They habitually, deliberately cause suffering as well as controlling their victims in order to be able to inflict further suffering on them in the future. The comment immediately above mine is incorrect in saying that SPD is not about causing people to suffer and that suffering is a mere side effect. It is certainly deliberately, habitually causing suffering. The controlling is a means to weaken, restrict, isolate and pacify the victim in order to facilitate the persecutor's deliberate infliction of suffering and prevent him running away and/or reporting the abuse. Jim Michael (talk) 04:20, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Upon further study and thought I've revised my opinion, I now seriously doubt control is the alpha and omega for all, maybe even most with SPD. However I'm pretty sure your description goes too far as well, e.g. in the example I'm familiar with, not every opportunity is taken. That would obviously cause problems in the medium, maybe even short term, by quickly driving away targets and decreasing the opportunities to victimize (even in the ones under significant or near total control). This probably depends on the level of self-control the person with SPD has and is willing/able to exercise; if they can and realize this at some level, they'll vary their behavior to keep victims close enough to continue the sadism longer.

For that matter, someone with SPD and a modicum of self-control and a moral system may try to limit their victimization, but of course fail to do that entirely. Personality disorders are not necessarily as powerful as organic mental problems (e.g. depression, bipolar, schizophrenia; the latter two can't be treated/managed well without drugs). Hga (talk) 15:31, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

A high proportion of people with SPD also have antisocial personality disorder and are impulsive. Months of planning / grooming a target before victimising them would only happen if the sadist is already victimising others during this period. The sadist victimises habitually, so would not spend months without victimising - he would find vulnerable people to target. Those with self-control would take more precautions to reduce their risk of being discovered by the authorities, but for a sadist to have morals is rare. These people are destructive, selfish, callous and dedicate their lives to inflicting suffering on people. Personality disordered people do not have the range of interests that the other 90% of people do. They don't have the life goals that regular people do, nor do they find enjoyment in those things. A sadist cannot enjoy having a friendly conversation or watching a sitcom. Everything a sadist does is victimising, preparing for it, finding new victims, preventing their victims escaping and police, social services etc discovering the abuse. Jim Michael (talk) 22:53, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Causes?

? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brownmetalheadd (talk • contribs) 22:40, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Besides the early onset, my searches for information have found no indications of causes. Obviously something compels the person with it to seek control to the exclusion of ever other possible personal goal, including reciprocal relationships and I would dare say "love", but otherwise I haven't found anything.

Nor am I likely to. One thing I have found is that its mirror Self-defeating personality disorder that was proposed for inclusion at the same time cased some feminists such upset that they threatened a lawsuit against the American Psychiatric Association, which apparently prompted the latter to drop both from consideration, and after that little research seems to have been done.

There are some things man is not meant to know, it would seem. Hga 04:15, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd say tbe mirror of SPD is Narcissism of Megalomania . . . sadists can be compelled to cruelty even when it defeats their interests. That's they get in trouble so often. Self-defeating people are more like sadists who hate themselves . . . and many sadists do project inward AND outward. Magmagoblin (talk) 02:44, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Sufferers

are sensitive people more likly to suffer from this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brownmetalheadd (talk • contribs) 22:46, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

(Original Research Warning! :-)

I would suspect not. SPD drives someone suffering from it to acts of extreme cruelty. That would seem to be inconsistent with the person being sensitive---how would they live with themselves afterwards?

I think (again, based on direct observation plus how it's likely to work) that significant callousness is required for it. Hga 04:05, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Opinion: victims become sensistive. They can choose to adopt the cruelty of the sadist. Need to leave home ASAP and develop their own personalities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.236.218 (talk) 14:21, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Direct observations: It seems to be more a matter of realizing one has unconsciously learned the patterns from the SPD parent (who pretty much by definition is the dominant parent, since he or she would not tolerate a spouse who resisted), and then choosing to do the very hard work to change oneself. The DSM says onset is "early adulthood", so while getting out ASAP is well advised, it won't happen before many years of learning by example.

In my family, at least 3 out of the 4 children learned the patterns, but none have SPD as such. Hga 14:45, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

What makes SPD unique?

I don't see how this differs from the profile of a typical batterer or domestic abuser--whether physical, emotional, sexual, or all three. Is there some difference? If yes, explain how this is different. If not, then say that and link to topics on domestic violence and abuse. Eperotao (talk) 15:46, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

SPD is a particular motivation for abuse, and it most certainly doesn't follow any of the patterns of "typical" physical or sexual abuse that I'm aware of, and there are many emotional abuse patterns and motivations that don't match it at all.

And would it not be original research to show and explain this, therefore being beyond the scope of Wikipedia? Hga (talk) 23:52, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

The diagnostic requirements for SPD sound rather premature, because they do resemble a simple abusive personality. This is more of a medical research issue than a wiki article issue, and can't be helped until more information is published.

The emphasis of sadism is not on the act of abuse, but the thoughts behind it. in fact not all (if not most) sadists could even be classified as abusive in a legal sense. it is a presumptuous misrepresentation to imply such a thing at all. sadism is a state of mind, not a visible act. - it would be nice if at least that one point could be better expressed.

76.17.99.145 (talk) 18:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Why removed?

I think this article would benefit from a sentence or two explaining why this disorder was removed from the DSM. (IIRC a whole bunch were removed in the transition from DSM-III-R to DSM-IV, so it might not be anything terribly interesting; but I don't think it's enough to write "the current DSM-IV-TR does not include the category" without saying something about why.) —Ruakh_TALK 02:21, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The story for SPD is interesting and sourced if you do a bit of Googling and want to add it to the page: the mirror to it was so Politically Uncorrect that legal action was threatened against the APA, so they dropped both. There is also perhaps legitimate argument over it being unique, but I haven't found anyone saying that to be convincing.

It's sad, but the DSM has very clearly become a politicized document in many areas. Hga (talk) 10:02, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

It was probably removed because it has become the norm of our collective culture, and is no longer considered a disorder ;) --Redconfetti (talk) 01:04, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Heh. But there's a big distinction between someone who's merely "sadistic" in behavior when they want to be and someone who has this personality disorder and can't turn it off. Hga (talk) 11:25, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunalyy, no science proof were given to show that sadism is a "personality disorder". Oh well... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.152.98.37 (talk) 04:41, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Incorrect facts..

If personality in humans fully develops in early childhood, it is not possible for sadism to "develop in early adulthood" unless it is explicitly sexual. "It is not diagnosable until early adulthood" would be a possibility.. but sadistic people are sadistic from childhood.

Aside from that, what about severity in cases? It must vary from "self-controlled/well behaved" people to others, outwardly violent, labeled a threat to others. Perhaps sub-classifications; dominantly physical vrs mental sadism. There must be some document out there addressing details like this. 76.17.99.145 (talk) 17:59, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Do sadistic people have feelings?

I was wondering if sadistic people feel love to their friends/partner even if they abuse them? Also, do they care about the feelings of others? Hedron (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 20:26, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Before addressing the above question, it should be narrowed to the scope of the article's topic, which is a personality disorder with a foundation of control over other people that expresses itself in ways that deserve the label sadistic (7 out of the 8 diagnostic criteria by my count).

Sadistic personality disorder is not the only thing that causes sadistic behavior, and I have no particular experience with other causes, which could well be the majority of examples.

For the one SPD example I have, I'm not at all sure they love their spouse ... but I was only able to make good observations when I was old enough, so love might have once been there, but wilted in the crucible of SPD. Friends?!??!! I suspect SPD is a very strong bar to having them or at least retaining them. Why put up the with clearly senseless abuse, unless a relative who doesn't have much choice?

Do people with SPD "have feelings" or care about others? In the example I have, very clearly yes (e.g. she was a Nurse anesthetist; these are elite nurses who do a lot of general clinical work before specializing, no way could one do that without having compassion). A tragedy of the disorder is that it drives sufferers to hurt people they do care about. Hga (talk) 17:21, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Changes by Mattisse

With the exception of the unreferenced section, where the ultimate reference is the DSM III-R (which is implied by the section title; is more really needed?), I don't think the changes are supportable:

This personality disorder is not about sadism per se, e.g. look at the 7th criteria, "Restricts the autonomy..."; that does not I think rise to the level of sadism. So I'm not sure a reference to BDSM is called for ... but thinking about it some more, it does belong.

Just as the removed references to similar personality disorders should be put back in. If one tries to fit someone with SPD into either of those, there aren't enough matches for a diagnosis, but they are what people will first think of and examine.

Finally, simply saying "discredited diagnosis" is not accurate. "Politically discredited diagnosis" with a reference to page 52 of Evil Genes (search for "sadistic personality disorder" on Amazon and you'll get references to three pages starting with that one) would work for me, and is supported by other citable (I think, it's been a while) references you can find with Google.

It might be better to just leave it as it was rather than stating "discredited" (unless you can find a good reference to support that). The final sentence of the introduction works for me in emphasizing its status without delving into the why. Hga (talk) 17:09, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

After reading the BDSM entry with its second sentence saying "While not always overtly sexual in nature, the activities and relationships within a BDSM context are almost always eroticized by the participants in some fashion." I don't think it belongs in the See Also section. The other related entries (which reference it) will do. Hga (talk) 17:11, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

De Sade!

It's incredibly sad (pun!) that this page does not mention Marquis de Sade! --Legolas558 (talk) 20:42, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps, but unless de Sade was a sadist by compulsion, like someone suffering from this personality disorder, as opposed to a sadist by choice, he's just not relevant to this page. Since the See Also section includes a link to Sadism and masochism which mentions de Sade in the second sentence, that should be good enough. Hga (talk) 13:36, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

"A crown"

Causes section of the article ends with the statement: "There appears to be a crown to the disorder." I for one do not know what this means. Could someone elaborate on this?Averagejoedev (talk) 14:49, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

yeah i want ot know to. i dont think most people know what that means.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. You are absolutely right. Crown must be the result of some unnoticed vandalism. I now have restored the original sentence. Lova Falk talk 10:55, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

And I have now seen the article and it is about genetics and personality disorders - not a good source for this sentence at all. So it is completely removed. Lova Falk talk 11:02, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, although I'd feel comfortable make this general statement: "The general heritability of personality disorders would suggest a genetic component to this disorder." But that strikes me at best as being to close to original research, or at least making a synthesis of something the paper says and then applying it to this disorder without specific evidence for it. And, well, any honest student of personality and the like knows that there's an amazing amount of heritability involved so it's not exactly news (granted, that's a very controversial thesis, since the major fault line in modern politics (~ the last 2 centuries) is over the malleability of human behavior). Hga (talk) 15:12, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you that it is most likely that there are genetic aspects involved in this disorder. But we have to find a better source. And, regarding the rest of your comment, even heritable characteristics need an environment in order to express themselves to their full potential. If children of tall parents are chronically undernarished, they'll probably end up short. Lova Falk talk 16:17, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. But one must also accept the flip side, if one has "short" genes no amount of normal intervention will cause one to be taller than the potential. E.g. I'm a near carbon copy of my father in these sorts of things, and we assume that due to better nutrition (he was born in the early '30s) I'm ~3 inches taller than him. But only those 3; my brothers, who got essentially the same diet etc. as me are 3+ inches taller than me, we presume because they got some of my mother's family's "moose" genes. Scary side note: lately we've found some quasi-Lamarkian effects in this area, e.g. malnutrition in the mother at certain times can have effects in her children. I think the presumed (or established???) mechanism is all that DNA formerly labeled as "junk" that we now know has a lot of regulatory functions. Anyway, to get back to my point, in many circles it's well neigh heretical to insist this genetic "limitation" concept applies beyond simple things like height.... And we can twist all this back to why the mirror of SPD was deemed politically incorrect and the APA withdrew both due to credible legal threats. Hga (talk) 17:22, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Sadistic Personality Disorder (SPD)

This is an outline of what Allison and I (Casey) will be talking about in our revision of this Wikipedia article.

Definition of Sadism

-The tendency to derive pleasure especially sexual gratification from inflicting pain, suffering or humiliation on others -When it exists in the libido it has two pleasurable tendencies at work -Trying to destroy the object or trying to control it

Characteristics of Sadistic Personalities

-Demonstrate a marked degree of empathy in recognition of other’s feelings in order to gain gratification from their discomfort or pain -Compassionate because they excel at discerning the feelings of others -Pleasure in humiliating, controlling and dominating others -Doesn’t always have to do with sexual arousal but it can -Cruel, manipulative, demeaning and aggressive towards others -Reveal satisfaction in intimidation, coercion and humiliation of others -Likely to view themselves as assertive, energetic, self-reliant BUT honest, strong and realistic -Tend to have excitable and irritable tempers that flare into arguments and physical belligerence -Still have the capacity to share tender feelings to experience genuine -Similar to those of paranoid, schizotypal and borderline personalities -They lack insight into the nature of their interpersonal difficulties and the emotional distress they cause -Primary way of relating to others is by causing pain -SPD is more common in males than in females

Personality Traits Linked with Sadistic Personality Disorder

- The disorder has been found at high rates in adolescent psychiatric inpatients and in juvenile sexual homicide offenders - Sadism is linked with acts of unprovoked aggression - Guilt may lead to a “sadistic drive” - Sadistic personality traits are linked with juvenile delinquency -“Characterized by a pattern of cruelty, aggression and meaning behavior.” (Charbrol et al., 2009).

DSM-III-R Criteria for Sadistic Personality Disorder

o A. A pervasive pattern of cruel, demeaning and aggressive behavior, beginning by early adulthood, as indicated by the repeated occurrence of at least four of the following: (1) Has used physical cruelty or violence for the purpose of establishing dominance in a relationship (not merely to achieve some noninterpersonal goal, such as striking someone in order to rob him or her) (2) Humiliates or demeans people in the presence of others (3) Has treated or disciplined someone under his or her control unusually harshly (e.g., a child, student, prisoner, or patient) (4) Is amused by, or takes pleasure in, the psychological or physical suffering of others (including animals) (5) Has lied for the purpose of harming or inflicting pain on others (not merely to achieve some other goal) (6) Gets other people to do what he or she wants by frightening them (through intimidation or even terror) (7) Restricts the autonomy of people with whom he or she has close relationship (e.g., will not let spouse leave the house unaccompanied or permit teen-age daughter to attend social functions) (8) Is fascinated by violence, weapons, martial arts, injury, or torture B. The behavior in A has not been directed toward only on person (e.g., spouse, one child) and has not been solely for the purpose of sexual arousal (as in Sexual Sadism). (Myers et al., 2006)

Removal From the DSM

-Was introduced to the DSM in 1987 by numerous theorists and clinicians -It was felt that “there was a clinical need for a category to describe persons, usually seen in forensic settings, who demonstrated a long-standing maladapative pattern of cruel, demeaning and aggressive behavior towards others” -They also thought that these symptoms and behaviors didn’t fit any other category included in the DSM-III-R -Its inclusion in the DSM-III-R was shortly followed with a deletion from the DSM-IV

Comorbidity with Other Personality Disorders

- SPD is likely to occur with other forms of psychopathologic disorders - SPD is believed to be the personality disorder with the highest level of comorbidity. - There are difficulties in differentiating sadistic personality disorder from other personality disorders. - Those with SPD are more likely to also display conduct disorder - Bipolar and panic disorders are often linked with SPD. - People suffering from SPD also oftentimes have comorbid depression or alcohol dependence. - Oftentimes exist with borderline, histrionic, compulsive, and passive-aggressive personality disorders. - Related to self-defeating personality disorder. - Sadism is not found strictly in patients with psychopathic disorders - Sadistic personality traits are found in “non-clinical, non forensic youth populations” (Chabrol et al., 2009)

Familial Patterns in Sadistic Personality Disorders

- There is a familial pattern associated with SPD. - Relatives of patients with sadistic personality disorder often have some type of psychopathology themselves. -Patients with SPD tend to have had a childhood history of sexual abuse -In one study 68.4% of patients had a relatives with a history of alcohol abuse -SPD tends to start during childhood and continue into later life -Childhood actions influence SPD later on in life -Aggressiveness -Impulsivity -Acts of bullying -Absence of parents -Possible presence of “unsocialized aggressive syndrome”

Theodore Million's Sadistic Personality Subtypes

-Explosive Sadist -Uncontrollable rage and fearsome attacks -Subsequently contrite -Tyrannical Sadist -Relishes menacing and brutalizing others -Intentionally surly, abusive -Enforcing Sadist -“Hostility sublimated in the ‘public interest’” -Spineless Sadist -Basically insecure -Cowardly

Links to Be Used in Article

-Bradley, R., Shedler, J., Westen, D. (2006). Is the appendix a useful appendage? An empirical examination of depressive, passive-aggressive (negativistic), sadistic and self-defeatingpersonality disorders. Journal of Personality Disorders, 20(5), 534-540. Retrieved from http://guilfordjournals.com.proxy.bc.edu/doi/pdf/10.1521/pedi.2006.20.5.524

- Chabrol, H., Van Leeuwen, N., Rodgers, R., & Sejourne, N. (2009). Contributions of psychopathic, narcissistic, machiavellian, and sadistic personality traits to juvenile delinquency. Personality and Individual Differences, 47(7), 734-739. Retrieved from http://www.sciencedirect.com.proxy.bc.edu/science/article/pii/S019188690900275X

-Kaminer, D., Stein, D. J. (2011). Sadistic Personality Disorder in Perpetrators of Human Rights Abuses: A South African Case Study. Current Opinion in Psychiatry 21:1, 84-92. Retrieved from http://guilfordjournals.com.proxy.bc.edu/doi/pdf/10.1521/pedi.15.6.475.19191

-Million, T. (1996). Disorders of Personality DSM-IV and Beyond. New York: Wiley-Interscience Publication.

- Myers, W. C., Burket, R. C., & Husted, D. S. (2006). Sadistic personality disorder and comorbid mental illness in adolescent psychiatric inpatients. Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law Online, 34(1), 61-71. Retrieved from http://www.jaapl.org/content/34/1/61.full.pdf html

-O'Meara, A., Davies, J., & Hammond, S. (2011). The psychometric properties and utility of the Short Sadistic Impulse Scale (SSIS). Psychological Assessment, 23(2), 523-531. doi:10.1037/a0022400

- Reich, J. (1992). Prevalence and characteristics of sadistic personality disorder in an outpatient veterans population. Psychiatry Research, 48, 267-276. Retrieved from http://www.sciencedirect.com.proxy.bc.edu/science/article/pii/016517819390077T

- Reidy, D. E., Zeichner, A., & Seibert, L. A. (2011). Unprovoked aggression: Effects of psychopathic traits and sadism . Journal of Personality, 79(1), 75-100. Retrieved from brary.wiley.com.proxy.bc.edu/doi/10.1111/j.1467-6494.2010.00691.x/full

Looks really good! However, not a word about (theories about) causes? And, a minor detail, please only use capital letters in the first word of each section. See: [[WP:MOS] "Sentence case rather than title case is used in Wikipedia article titles and section headings". Thank you! Lova Falk talk 07:34, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

I see a lot of value, but we should avoid entangling this article, about a specific cause of sadistic behavior, with the greater topic of sadism, most of which I'm pretty sure isn't driven by this specific disorder. I'd also advocate an approach of inserting this material into the current article vs. a wholesale rewrite (not sure exactly what you're proposing between those two extremes). I have a few nits, like the DSM history, ought to be more specific about why it didn't make it into the DSM-IV (maybe even a reference to how blatant the general DSM process has become) and it's mirror disorder about which the political fuss was made, but overall, at first glance, this looks good. Hga (talk) 13:48, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Hga: "maybe even a reference to how blatant the general DSM process has become"? - sounds to me like point of view. Also, a neutral text about the discussion on the DSM process (with sources) belongs to a DSM article and not to this article. Lova Falk talk 15:27, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

It's a pretty well established point of view, but, agreed, wading into that general topic in this article would not be correct, a simple reference like the one in this comment of mine is sufficient. Hga (talk) 12:52, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

These are all great edits. Make sure to into account the other reviewer's great comments into your editing of this article. It's especially helpful if you integrate your material into the article's existing sections. Looking forward to your work on this article! EM — Preceding unsigned comment added by Testaccountpy242 (talk • contribs) 15:18, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Rethinking Sadistic personality disorder

Sadistic personality disorder has been removed from the DSM, but for questionable reasons. Legal action was threatened. Sadists do not seek treatment--but criminals don't seek treatment either; sadists don't think there's anything wrong with themselves--but neither do alcoholics in denial nor child molesters. On the contrary these strongly defend themselves and their behavior; they believe their rights are being violated; they are comfortable with their behavior.

Empathy is a key part of human behavior--as social beings our ability to perceive AND identify with another persons' feelings is essential to human relationships. Our mirror neurons help us perceive other people's feelings and when another feels pain we logically should feel pain. Feeling pleasure at another's pain is either a profound loss or an unhealthy connection. Because of this, sadism could be described as an antisocial personality disorder.

The fact that the DSM continues to list their victims with "self-defeating personality disorder" is a clear indication that something is gravely amiss. Margaret9mary205.167.120.201 (talk) 22:57, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Delete page, put relevant material on more relevant pages?

I have removed the vast amount of unsourced and irrelevant material. After doing so, it occurred to me that the whole page should be deleted with any remaining relevant material moved to Antisocial personality disorder or Psychopathy. Thoughts? — James Cantor (talk) 22:41, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

@James Cantor: Or we can Blow it up and start over from scratch. --Mr. Guye (talk) 22:01, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Removed Copy/Paste Warning

After checking the dates, I've removed the copy/paste warning that cited https://deviancebehaviorcriminology.wordpress.com/2014/02/19/sadistic-personality-disorder/. That article was posted on February 19, 2014. However, it appears to be a copy of even older versions of the Wikipedia article, ex. http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Sadistic_personality_disorder&oldid=579896111. That is, the linked article appears to have copied Wikipedia, not the other way around. This is further substantiated by the WordPress article linking to the Wikipedia article for its sources. kmarple1 (talk) 13:49, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Possible moves: "Sadistic personality" or similar

I think that "disorder" expresses strong POV. Please see BDSM and Sadomasochism. The article states "Sadism involves gaining pleasure from seeing others undergo discomfort or pain." Fine. Given a willing or even eager partner, where is the problem with this. Sure there is a potential for disorder but I question whether a disorder label should be applied to all such situations. GregKaye 06:12, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, the article has accumulated a lot of stuff that's perhaps related to the actual personality disorder, which appears to be a real thing that was kept out of the DSM because it and most especially its mirror Self-defeating personality disorder were viewed as problematic by various powerful political organizations that credibly threatened a lawsuit. I think it needs to stay as its own entry if for no other reason that to allow people to do differential diagnoses (well, that was beyond invaluable for me), but it could certainly use some judicious pruning. Hga (talk) 12:05, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Greg I am not sure about it being POV or not. Others can decide. However, it should be noted that sadistic personality disorder, as to the best of my knowledge, is an outdated psychiatric disorder that is no longer recognised. The disorder was dropped from the DSM criteria which is mainly used by psychiatrists in the US and other US centric healthcare systems. Other countries use the the WHO published ICD criteria and as far as I am aware, it also does not mention this. ICD-11 is currently in consultation phase and due to be released in 2017. I had a quick look through it and there is no mention of sadistic personality disorder either. Just to add, past versions of DSM are not a valid source for considering something a disorder if the latest versions of said manual do not corroborate. I therefore think the lead may be misleading. I have not read the rest of the article. Mbcap (talk) 22:25, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Mbcap In addition to your welcome comments regarding a misleading lead I maintain the view in regard to POV. As you know, at a different extreme there are various political situations worldwide in which involuntary restrictions are imposed on people by various groups and regimes in which case, many of these should be classified within the realms of disorder. If you take a comparative look into BDSM topics I think that it is apparent that that concepts of consent, respect and safety are embedded in many aspects of BDSM type lifestyles and relevant topics can be found through a search on (BDSM OR sadomasochism OR kink) AND (consent OR consensual OR respect OR "safe word"). Unlike in other situations, choice is often a factor here and I think that a very relevant content here is "Safe, sane and consensual" a presentation of "common principles guiding relationships and activities" "In the BDSM community".

With thin, now withdrawn assertion that this is a disorder I don't think that Wikipedia's voice should be used to present universal disorder on an issue related to a practice that makes continued and explicit mention of sanity.

Also with regard to articles such as : Sexual sadism disorder and Sexual masochism disorder they reference ICD-10 Version:2015 F65.5 which only says: "Sadomasochism - A preference for sexual activity which involves the infliction of pain or humiliation, or bondage. If the subject prefers to be the recipient of such stimulation this is called masochism; if the provider, sadism. Often an individual obtains sexual excitement from both sadistic and masochistic activities. Masochism Sadism". It seems to me that the most they are doing is noting preference while Wikipedia currently, I think, presents a POV of "disorder". GregKaye 06:18, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

The mirror diagnoses of Sadistic personality disorder and Self-defeating personality disorder do not in any way imply that people engaging in BDSM suffer from a disorder, and this hinges on the very issue of choice and consent, in that people suffering from these disorders by definition take actions not out of choice, nor do they get consent.

Any value judgments being applied are not about the actions per se, but the inability to chose not to take them, therefore there is no POV of the sort you are concerned about in the parts of the articles about the actual disorders. Which is not to say that the added unrelated material might not have problems, or need serious cleanup. Hga (talk) 16:14, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I think this article may require the attention of a specialist, i.e. a psychiatrist. Mbcap (talk) 19:58, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Can we please be honest with ourselves?

Sadism is presented here as if it were a disorder, but this clashes with the historical evidence especially in regard to ancient cultures. Sadism seems to be an essential characteristic of the human animal. I don't believe this 'social animal' nonsense at all, it's scientifically dishonest.

Anybody else think we need a more honest Psychology? If the importance of sadism is not recognized we will never understand anything substantial about human behaviour. You can't just dismiss such an important drive, not if you really want to understand. Honest science, that might come to a controversial or distasteful conclusion is to be preferred over dishonest science for the sake of upholding a comforting lie. The great lie of the 'social animal'. Realistically, people are closer to the Libertines in Salo; Most use the power of 'niceness' as a means of achieving sadistic pleasure without consequence. That's your 'social animal' and that's the unfortunate result of Human Rights, which I consequently regard as suspect.WarriorLordOfTheSun (talk) 15:35, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

I won't necessarily argue with your general point (but will think about it), but the issue with Sadistic Personality Disorder is that it is an extreme of driven and expressed, as such, sadism. What turns it from a possibly normal part of human behavior into a disorder is that the sufferer is compelled to treat the people around them sadistically, or so says my original research on someone with it, and that's implied by the 8 DSM criteria which had to be removed due to copyright.

If sadism is indeed a normal part of the spectrum of a human being's behavior, then most people would not likely score on enough of the 8 criteria to be diagnosed with the disorder. To Goodwin this, Hitler, a man noted for some particularly sadistic actions, would not I suspect have been diagnosed with the disorder, not that I've looked into his personality to any degree. And not that I've looked into Stalin's, but I wouldn't be surprised if he would have been diagnosed with it. Hga (talk) 15:26, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

In Popular Culture?

Many fictional villains, especially pure evil ones have sadistic personality disorder. For example, Chucky from Chucky and Pennywise from IT enjoy suffering of the heroes. 136.158.59.157 (talk) 05:08, 1 May 2021 (UTC)