Talk:Ryan Whitney (ice hockey)

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Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Ryan Newman (actress) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 19:47, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 29 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: there is a consensus to move Ryan Whitney and Ryan Whitney (disambiguation) and no consensus to move Ryan Newman (racing driver). A majority of editors agreed that there is no clear primary topic for Ryan Whitney because pageviews are roughly equal and it is unclear that Ryan Whitney (ice hockey) has greater long-term significance. Editors did not agree on whether Ryan Whitney (actress) has enough long-term significance under her former name to challenge Ryan Newman (racing driver) for primacy under that name, but found a bit of evidence that she may still be primary in terms of usage; ultimately, there's not a consensus to establish a primary topic there, either. (non-admin closure) —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 17:33, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

– Firstly, there is no clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC between Ryan Whitney and Ryan Whitney (actress) (see similar page view numbers, suggesting equal readership). Ryan Whitney used to be called Ryan Newman, which is where all the problems start. However, after three years, two failed RMs, and a unilateral move by a user, we're passed the WP:TOOSOON stage. Let's say Ryan Whitney (actress)'s WP:COMMONNAME is actually Ryan Whitney (more on that later), and we manage to agree that there is no PRIMARYTOPIC, then, we need to move the pages accordingly and create a proper disambiguation page, instead of what is now at Ryan Whitney (disambiguation).
Next, for the case of Ryan Newman (racing driver), the page needs to be moved to Ryan Newman, since he would be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the name "Ryan Newman". We could leave a hatnote at the top so that readers looking for the former Ryan Newman, now Ryan Whitney, could find her. I don't think a Ryan Newman (disambiguation) page is necessary, but let me know. Ryan Dean Newman can stay as is, and we can leave a hatnote if need be.
Alternate proposal: if you disagree with Ryan Whitney's WP:COMMONNAME being Ryan Whitney, I suggest moving Ryan Whitney (actress) to Ryan Whitney Newman, which is used in a fair chunk of sources and on places like her Instagram page. Ryan Newman (racing driver) is still moved to Ryan Newman, hatnotes are still left at the top, but that way we can leave Ryan Whitney (the ice hockey player) where he is, and just leave a hatnote at the top. Ryan Whitney (disambiguation) can be outright deleted. Ryan Dean Newman, no change but hatnotes where needed. Paul Vaurie (talk) 13:17, 29 August 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 06:15, 7 September 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Sennecaster (Chat) 01:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support 1st, the ice hockey defenseman has 4,015 views but the actress has 4,427. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:26, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support racing driver, support alternate for actress, Oppose hockey player - The hockey player is still the primary topic per long-term significance; the actress has only appeared in two films since changing her name vs. 10+ year pro career + continued recognition as a podcaster. I nonetheless support the WP:NATURAL disambiguation of Ryan Whitney Newman, while the racing driver is now (and again) the clear primary topic for "Ryan Newman." Of course, we would hatnote the racing driver article to link to the actress and the DAB I created back then can be deleted per WP:ONEOTHER. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 21:17, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@GhostOfDanGurney and Necrothesp: There is no WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the ice hockey player, period. A PRIMARYTOPIC needs to be really clear to actually exist. It can't be just a very slight thing. Although Google searches for Ryan Whitney mostly turn up results for the ice hockey player, he doesn't pass this (from WP:PRIMARYTOPIC): A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term. This clearly isn't the case when looking at Wikipedia views. Readers actually come across Ryan Whitney (actress) MORE than they come across Ryan Whitney, EVEN THOUGH the latter is the first result on Google! That is telling! Also, remember that the words are "much more likely"— slightly more likely doesn't cut it, and it's clear we're not at "much more likely" for the ice hockey player. Even if you could make a coherent argument that the ice hockey player slightly edges out the actress on long-term significance in their respective field (and I'm not even sure of that— the actress has had a longer career), as Ortizesp and Crouch, Swale have pointed out, there is no PRIMARYTOPIC in the eyes of readers. To me, this really shouldn't be up for debate, as it's clear as day there isn't a PRIMARYTOPIC (of course, on the assumption that the correct COMMONNAME for Ryan Whitney is Ryan Whitney, which it seems like it is per most answers). Paul Vaurie (talk) 17:57, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your arguments here, in my opinion, are being skewed by WP:RECENTISM bias. Again, the actress has two works as "Ryan Whitney" and the player, as 162 etc. points out, may be even more notable now than during his playing career, which again, consisted of 10 years at the highest professional level. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 17:43, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose actress now per 162 etc.
― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 17:40, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Ryan Whitney → Ryan Whitney (ice hockey). The ice hockey player is the primary topic by long-term significance. Support Ryan Newman (racing driver) → Ryan Newman. Clear primary topic by long-term significance. Move Ryan Newman → Ryan Newman (disambiguation). Three people, so clearly needed. Delete Ryan Whitney (disambiguation) per WP:TWODABS. A hatnote is fine to point to the actress. Oppose Ryan Whitney (actress) → Ryan Whitney Newman, a name by which she has never been credited. Per WP:MIDDLENAME we don't use full names for purposes of disambiguation-- Necrothesp (talk) 10:51, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support all, no clear PRIMARY recently.--Ortizesp (talk) 12:50, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Ryan Newman (racing driver) -> Ryan Newman and Support Alternate proposal. MysticCipher87(alt-account) (talk) 13:27, 30 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - to the person closing the discussion — the status quo is wrong in terms of disambiguation, so whatever you do, please make some kind of move. It's clear per everyone in the discussion that something needs to be moved, and what is currently up is incorrect. Paul Vaurie (talk) 17:09, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - there is consensus to move Ryan Newman (racing driver) → Ryan Newman, at the very least (per everyone in the discussion). Ryan Newman (disambiguation) can exist, as three people could potentially fall under that name, as Necrothesp put it. GhostOfDanGurney is wrong about WP:ONEOTHER, here we have WP:TWOOTHER since some people might still think Ryan Whitney (actress) is called Ryan Newman (actress) — it's plausible. The other guy is Ryan Dean Newman. If they can all fit in a standard one-line hatnote, then, sure, the DAB is not needed, but I don't think they can, so in my opinion, the DAB is needed (per WP:TWOOTHER). Paul Vaurie (talk) 18:07, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Let the closer determine the consensus. – robertsky (talk) 06:17, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Robertsky: It's just a comment. The closer can do what they feel is right, they can ignore the input or take it if they want. Up to them. Paul Vaurie (talk) 20:02, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose 1 and 3, neutral 2. Sorry, I just don't see how an actress who is mostly notable as "Ryan Newman" should usurp primary topic from Ryan Whitney, who had a pretty long career and is even more well-known now because of Chiclets. I don't know much about NASCAR so no comment there. 162 etc. (talk) 20:33, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@162 etc.: Explained in my comment above, that's why there is no WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (it wasn't usurped, just cancelled). Paul Vaurie (talk) 20:40, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I explained in my comment above why I disagree. 162 etc. (talk) 20:55, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support 1 and 3, oppose 2. I don't think we can safely declare a primary topic for any of the individuals with combinations of these names. The actress is at least as notable as both the ice hockey player and the racing driver, as page views attest.[1] Overall, it's best to have both topics simply be disambiguation pages. — Amakuru (talk) 17:14, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting for a clearer consensus – robertsky (talk) 06:16, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support 1 and 3, oppose 2. Any assertion of a primary topic isn't as clear as it should be. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 10:51, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support 1 and 3, oppose 2. By pageviews, there clearly is no primary topic here, as shown above for actress vs. hockey player. As for driver, WikiNav shows that most people on the Ryan Newman disambiguation page go for the actress, not the driver. I don't think the long-term significance argument quite holds water here. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC requires substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term. In my opinion, the actress with a 20-year and counting career does not have significantly less enduring notability and educational value, than the sportsball man with an unremarkable career and a barely notable podcast. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 09:45, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll again note that the quasi-totality of that "20-year and counting career" is under the name "Ryan Newman", and that she is much more recognizable by that name rather than her current one. 162 etc. (talk) 16:47, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it's right to say that her career before her name change only "counts" for notability under her old name. Her career accomplishments contribute to her significance as a person, that is how many are looking for an article about her, and now that she has changed her name, people will be looking for her under Ryan Whitney. Combine your argument about her being most notable under her former name with Paul Vaurie's argument below about her no longer being known by her former name, and you end up with her falling between two primary topics she, as a person, is no less significant than. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 22:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The only way Ryan Newman (racing driver) should stay at the current title is if it is determined that Ryan Whitney (actress) should be called Ryan Newman (actress). Otherwise, Ryan Newman (racing driver) should usurp the PRIMARYTOPIC for the name "Ryan Newman". Paul Vaurie (talk) 17:20, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.