Talk:Robert de Quincy

William the Lion William of Scotland

Pipera (talk)

Removed:

by King William of Scotland, his cousin.

Thias is not possible, explain how this is possible, and a reference for this statement.

Grandchildren/Great grandchildren

It is unnecessary to show Robert's grandchildren or great grandchildren. You have been told this before. Also, information already cited to secondary sources DOES NOT need more of your broken incomplete references. --Paramandyr (talk) 23:23, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

See: David I of Scotland - Wikipedia http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/David_I_of_Scotland Pipera (talk) 23:29, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Pipera (talk) Marriage and issue Robert married Orabilis, daughter of Nes [4] fitz William, Lord of Leuchars. [5].

She was married three times to secondly Adam of Fife see Donnchad I, Earl of Fife and thirdly Morggán, Earl of Mar.

They had:

Saer de Quincy (died 1219), married Margaret de Beaumont, daughter of Robert de Beaumont, 3rd Earl of Leicester [6] Unknown (daughter) de Quincy married de St Andrew Sir Saer I de St Andrew of East Haddon married Matilda de Dyve daughter of Hugh Dyve and Agnes they had issue: Robert de St Andrew married Albreda James de St Andrew (1228) Ralph de St Andrew (1228 - 1278) William de St Andrew Laurence de St Andrew Saer II de St Andrew John de St Andrew [7] Sir Roger de St Andrew (d before 1249) [8] [9] [10] Orabilis and Robert divorced.

Secondly, he married Eve of Galloway.

That is a personal opinion.

Continue to edit war at your own risk.

Also, this sentence;

• "he married Eve of Galloway, who was previously married to Walter Barclay.<refPeople of Medieval Scotland 1093 - 1371 Walter Barclay, chamberlain (d.c.1193) https://poms.ac.uk/record/person/6/ref>

is source misrepresentation. This is what the reference states;

• ""He[William Barclay] married (perhaps secondly), Eve, who may have been a daughter of Uhtred, lord of Galloway."

You can not, state something in a definitive voice when the source doesn't state it was definitive. Also, this particular source fails to show where this information originates. --Paramandyr (talk) 23:31, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Also, sign your posts at the end not the beginning, like you've been told before. --Paramandyr (talk) 23:32, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

original research

@Pipera: Pinging Pipera over these concerns. --Paramandyr (talk) 13:44, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

This sentence;

• "This original grant was expanded by Robert's son, Saer de Quincy, to include rights to coal and quarry working down to the low water mark on the Firth of Forth, making Prestoungrange one of the earliest sites of coal mining in Scotland."

Please post the page number and quote for this from the source; "Prestonpans : a social & economic history across 1000 years", ed. Annemarie Allan, Jane Bonnar, Gordon Prestoungrange, (Prestoungrange University Press, 2006). --Paramandyr (talk) 00:33, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Forfar Castle

Forfar Castle according to (archived website) Leuchars St Athernase Church Church of Scotland Rober de Quincy added Forfar Castle to his holdings.

Pipera (talk) 19:37, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

This sentence;

• Unknown (daughter) de Quincy married de St Andrew
  • Sir Saer I de St Andrew of East Haddon

cited by History and Antiquities of the County of Northampton Baker Vol 1

Anglo-Scottish baron of the thirteenth century: the acts of Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester and Constable of Scotland

Gotham St Lawrence List of Incumbents, Parishes: Goteham Thoroton's History of Nottinghamshire: Volume 1, Republished with Large Additions by John Throsby. Originally published by J Throsby, Nottingham, 1790.

There is no mention, in any of the list sources, of Robert de Quincy being related to Saer I de St Andrew, much less Saer de St Andrew being the son of an unnamed daughter of Robert de Quincy, therefore this is original research. --Paramandyr (talk) 00:41, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

More original research, the addition by Pipera of "daughter of Simon I de Senlis, Earl of Huntingdon-Northampton and Maud of Huntingdon, stepdaughter of King David I of Scotland is not supported by the Stringer source page 130. --Paramandyr (talk) 03:05, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Ingulph's chronicle of the abbey of Croyland with the continuations by Peter of Blois and anonymous writers

by Ingulf, 1030?-1109; Peter, of Blois, ca. 1135-ca. 1212; Riley, Henry T. (Henry Thomas), 1816-1878, tr Publication date 1854

https://archive.org/details/ingulphschronic03petegoog/page/146/mode/1up?q=Simon+

Dictionary of National Biography, 1885-1900/Senlis, Simon de http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionary_of_National_Biography,_1885-1900/Senlis,_Simon_de Pipera (talk) 19:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Anglo-Scottish baron of the thirteenth century: the acts of Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester and Constable of Scotland https://era.ed.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1842/6820/504226.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y Pipera (talk) 19:29, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

~~

Sir Ro0bert and Orabilis had an additional son his name was Robert

https://archive.org/details/HistoryAndAntiquitiesOfTheCountyOfNorthamptonBakerVol1/page/n565/mode/1up?q=saer

Additionally, it states her parents and other husband.

History And Antiquities of the County of Northampton Baker Vol 1

Also read:

page 160.

People of Medieval Scotland 1093-1371 - Saer of St Andrews - Also known as Serlo. Nephew of Earl Saer de Quincy. Had a brother, Roger. Retrieved 2024-12-20 People of Medieval Scotland 1093-1371 - Roger of St Andrews - nepos of Earl Saer de Quincy had a brother, Saer. Retrieved 2024-12-20

I see no answer(s) to my questions. You need to provide quotes and page numbers where this information can be found. --Paramandyr (talk) 20:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Read what I have said. Pipera (talk) 20:18, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Read what I have said. Either provide the quotes and page numbers to said sources or the information will be removed as original research, if you revert me, I will take this issue to WP:ANI. --Paramandyr (talk) 21:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

You need to have an educational reason to do so, also if you the links then the material is there. It is up to you to open the links and read the links I have provided page numbers in my response, the PDR Anglo-Scottish baron of the thirteenth century: the acts of Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester and Constable of Scotland you should seriously read, and within this is the said relationships https://era.ed.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1842/6820/504226.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y I am not pin pointing out where it is it is up to you read the source like we all had to in WHOLE and read the PEDIGTREE chart attached, as well as the Medieval Scotland sources that state he is the uncle of the said Roger de Saint and Saer de Saint, bearing in mind he has the same first name of his uncle and the POMS site also state this,. in additionally, Henry of Scotland On Henry's death, the Huntingdon earldom passed to his half-brother Simon II de Senlis, Earl of Huntingdon-Northampton. states the connection as well as the link back to Simon II de Senlis, Earl of Huntingdon-Northampton and Simon I de Senlis, Earl of Huntingdon-Northampton

I do not know how clearer this can be.

See: - do a keyword search for St Andrew. page 307 should be of interest to you.

This is backed up by the family tree commissioned by Earl Spencer, which details the marriage of Saher and his descendants form his marriage top Matilda de Dyre (Dive) whom is the daughter of Hugh and Agnes de Dyve, of which I am a descendant of her sister please consult se also

Am I being clear enough?

Do you wish to challenge this? Pipera (talk) 22:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents - Wikipedia http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents is for where someone has not supplied evidence I have in all cases regarding this article.

Also requires the person to have an in-depth knowledge of this tree and the background of the family concerned and contributed to the article. Pipera (talk) 22:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I have done so adding reliable references to the article concerned, and they can see this via the links to websites, hyperlinks to oither articles in Wikipedia, noted sources and a PHD Thesis on the Quincy family:

Anglo-Scottish baron of the thirteenth century: the acts of Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester and Constable of Scotland

dc.contributor.author

Simpson,Grant G.

en

dc.date.accessioned

2013-06-26T12:42:19Z

dc.date.available

2013-06-26T12:42:19Z

dc.date.issued

1966

dc.identifier.other

504226

dc.identifier.uri

http://hdl.handle.net/1842/6820

It is the most reliable document on the Quincy family and has been referenced in many locations as a reliable source.

It appears in History and Classics PhD thesis collection The University of Edinburgh thesis collections.

See Pedigree chart page 306 and 307 FULL PEDIGREE RECORD. Pipera (talk) 22:12, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

That checks out, also that source doesn't say Matilda is the daughter of Hugh. And I still see no reason to list Robert Quincy's great grandchildren.

I could accept this:

• Unknown (daughter) de Quincy married de St Andrew~~Simpson source(cited properly)
  • Sir Saer I de St Andrew of East Haddon married Matilda de Dyve~~Simpson source(cited properly)

The rest is unnecessary.

Also, "Eve of Galloway" can not be called "of Galloway" since the source, provided by you says "Walter may have married firstly a lady who was heir of Ardoyne, Aberdeenshire. He married (perhaps secondly), Eve, who may have been a daughter of Uhtred, lord of Galloway.", so better to remove the Galloway part and the part about her possibly marriage to Walter and avoid misrepresentation.

Now, what about this sentence: "This original grant was expanded by Robert's son, Saer de Quincy, to include rights to coal and quarry working down to the low water mark on the Firth of Forth, making Prestoungrange one of the earliest sites of coal mining in Scotland."

On what page of the book, "Prestonpans : a social & economic history across 1000 years", does it say Saer de Quincy expanded rights to coal and quarry working?? The link you provided above states, "Tranent in East Lothian, valuable for its coal and Forfar Castle, for example, came into his possession.", that doesn't say Saer de Quincy did anything. That won't work.

Also, spare me the Wall of text, learn to be concise. Thank you. --Paramandyr (talk) 22:41, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Eve od Galloway

Eve, who may have been a daughter of Uhtred, lord of Galloway.

:

Uhtred, lord of Galloway their children they are:

• Locland
• Roland married Elena de Morvile (27th Great Grandparents)
• Fergus
• un-named son.

The only descendants come from his son Roland.

I refer you to page 138

Author: Paul, James Balfour, Sir, 1846-1931 giving a detailed history of this family.

So, there is no evidence of Eve being his daughter.

Also, you can be more polite when taking to people here. Pipera (talk) 00:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

I will refer you to stating she had a brother Roland (this may or may not be the above Roland she had a sister Christina she married Patric of Dumbar. In modern day text it refers to her husband Walter de Berkley (Barclay). Pipera (talk) 00:41, 24 December 2024 (UTC) I refer you to her sister Christina Pipera (talk) 01:13, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Now, what about this sentence: "This original grant was expanded by Robert's son, Saer de Quincy, to include rights to coal and quarry working down to the low water mark on the Firth of Forth, making Prestoungrange one of the earliest sites of coal mining in Scotland."

This quote comes from historical accounts related to the Barony of Prestoungrange in Scotland. It specifically references Saer de Quincy, who expanded the original land grants to include rights to coal and quarry working down to the low water mark on the Firth of Forth. This expansion made Prestoungrange one of the earliest sites of coal mining in Scotland. Pipera (talk) 01:15, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Side Note Roland the son of Uchtred married had a son Alan he married an unknown de Lacy their daughter Helen (Elena) married Roger de Quincy son of Saer de Quincy, they had three daughters if whom I am a descendant of all three of their children, I am a descendant of 5 of the children of Saer de Quincy and Margaret de Beaumont. Another, Isabella de Senlis married William Mauduit. Pipera (talk) 02:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

• "This quote comes from historical accounts related to the Barony of Prestoungrange in Scotland. It specifically references Saer de Quincy, who expanded the original land grants to include rights to coal and quarry working down to the low water mark on the Firth of Forth. This expansion made Prestoungrange one of the earliest sites of coal mining in Scotland."
  

Which still doesn't explain on what page this can be found on the reference you provided. Page number from this [1]??

• "Side Note Roland the son of Uchtred married had a son Alan he married an unknown de Lacy their daughter Helen (Elena) married Roger de Quincy son of Saer de Quincy, they had three daughters if whom I am a descendant of all three of their children, I am a descendant of 5 of the children of Saer de Quincy and Margaret de Beaumont. Another, Isabella de Senlis married William Mauduit."
  

This sounds more like how this relates to you, than building an encyclopedia.

• "In your opinion, they are the grandchildren of Robert and his wife, much like the children of Saer and Margaret, do you consider this unnecessary?"
  

Fine. I will ping other editors and get multiple opinions.@Srnec:@Surtsicna:@Ealdgyth:@Векочел:@Kellycrak88:@Ermenrich:@Hchc2009:@BoyTheKingCanDance:
The question for incoming editors is this: "Should this article indicate grandchildren and/or great grandchildren in the "Marriage and issue" section." According to Wikipedia's policy ~ Wikipedia:NOTGENEALOGY. --Paramandyr (talk) 21:39, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

This article uses citations that link to broken or outdated sources. (December 2024)

Additionally, I have been doing genealogy for over 40 years going way back to 1984.

I would like to respond to this the modern day authors use text and sources from ancient records, it is always been standard practice to use original sources, they come from articles in records from archive.org, often I would see this duplicated in modern day resources. In the case of legitimacy of these sources, they are authors who have had their work go under academic review prior to publishing the sources, so I have used works from archive.org, to support what I have done, it is written text, the varsity of the articles has no question.

Everything links to each author's work, they are written at different times in history.

Additionally, I am also a descendant of David I via Henry of Scotland I am a descendant of 6 of his children so I come to this with a vested understanding of Maud, Countess of Huntingdon and her two husbands being a descendant of both husbands, in addition Judith of Lens she is a descendant of Rollo via William Longsword being descendant of Richard I of Normandy of which I am a descendent of Gunnora his wife and a number of his children to her, and additionally to several of his children to his various mistresses.

I verify the source, check using additionally as a source for any genealogical research.