Talk:Qana massacre

Requested move 25 March 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No Consensus User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 02:08, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

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Qana massacre → 1996 Qana massacre – To distinguish it from 2006 Qana airstrike, which is also usually referd to as simply "Qana massacre". Maudslay II (talk) 09:47, 25 March 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 10:49, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose The title "Qana massacre" is rarely used by RS to refer to the 2006 event. OP has not cited any sources to show evidence of a common name. 162.208.168.92 (talk) 15:05, 25 March 2021 (UTC)user disallowed from commenting here per WP:A/I/PIA.

  Taken from the article: Many looking for 2006 massacre are confused with the 1996 one. --Maudslay II (talk) 15:41, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - when the second airstrike is called a massacre it is called the second Qana massacre (eg BBC: It remains to be seen if the "Qana Massacre No 2" - as it's being called in Lebanon - will have the same result as the 1996 tragedy - enormous pressure on Israel to curtail its operations, leading to a ceasefire.) If there's some evidence that Qana massacre by itself is ambiguous I am open to changing my mind, but there needs to be evidence for that. nableezy - 15:43, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

  @Nableezy: Many sources refer to 2006 massacre simply as 'the' Qana massacre, in English and Arabic. '2006 Qana Massacre' and/or 'second Qana massacre' are used, as I said, to distinguish it from 1996. Speaking for myself, I was confused multiple times while looking for 2006 and getting redirected to 1996. It is much clearer to add the year in the title. --Maudslay II (talk) 17:14, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

  Those arent exactly reliable sources to demonstrate a name is in regular usage. nableezy - 17:11, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

  :: @Nableezy: There are no enough reliable sources that talk about this subject, but those sources represent what the people search for when looking it up. --Maudslay II (talk) 17:14, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

• Comment / alternate move target. Per arguments in the previous RM, I'd actually favor a return to the older 1996 shelling of Qana article title. While "massacre" is a common name, it's also a word to avoid without an overwhelming common name argument (e.g. Boston Massacre), and I don't feel that higher requirement is met to use such a non-neutral title - there are lots of news articles that don't use massacre (this New York Times article calls it a "raid" for example) or only acknowledge it as a Lebanese term for the event. But I don't want to sidetrack this RM solely on the year in the title, of which I have no opinion. SnowFire (talk) 17:17, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

  @SnowFire: "Shelling of Qana" would be the Israeli term as well, I wouldn't say npov. --Maudslay II (talk) 17:22, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

  I wasn't searching Israeli sources, I was checking non-Israeli, non-Lebanese sources with a search for "1996 Qana" so as not to prejudice things. Searching on the BBC gives this for another example: "the 1996 shelling of Qana in southern Lebanon that killed over 100.", no reference to massacre in running text. Here's Al-Jazeera: "Israeli bombing", no reference to "massacre". Wikipedia should follow terminology from "neutral" sources, and favor the less "heated" word when in doubt. Neutral sources don't call this one a massacre, and when they mention the term (which the three articles I cited - not cherry picked, they were the first things to come back - don't at all), it's only as an attributed term to "what Hizbullah calls it" and the like. SnowFire (talk) 17:38, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

  BBC indeed does call it the Qana massacre in any number of articles. For example [1], [2]. We can discuss this in another section, but the idea that supposedly neutral sources dont call it the Qana massacre is very much not true. And that isnt even getting in to the book sources and journal article. nableezy - 17:45, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

  You linked the same article twice - and that's a passing mention as a sentence. You'll get more useful results if you look for more directly related articles. site:bbc.com 1996 Qana and check out the articles (in English) that pop up, they don't generally use "massacre". I'm not denying that the term "massacre" comes up sometimes, anyway, I'm just arguing there needs to be a very strong preponderance of neutral sources using it for Wikipedia to use it on a contentious topic. This would apply equally to some incident that Israel called a massacre but was referred to otherwise elsewhere, to be clear. SnowFire (talk) 17:54, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

  Please do not sidetrack this RM. It is about adding 1996 to the title --Maudslay II (talk) 17:58, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

  I didn't plan on commenting further but I was replying to the above comment, which made the misleading claim that BBC casually uses "massacre". This is not really the common usage, as shown with evidence, so that is relevant to clear up. If people are willing to let it go at that, I won't have anything further to add. SnowFire (talk) 18:32, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

  Sorry, mis-copied urls from tabs. Posters link the massacre to later incidents in the Israeli-Lebanese conflict, including the Qana massacre in 1996 and the July 2006 war; International condemnation greeted the massacre on 18 April 1996 of over 100 Lebanese refugees in a UN base at Qana, in what the Israeli military said was a mistake.. And again, that isnt even getting in to the scores of scholarly sources that call it a massacre or the Qana massacre. Beyond that, there is no such thing as a "neutral" source, we base out titles on reliable sources. The BBC isnt the end all be all of sourcing, in fact news sources are lower on quality scale than say peer-reviewed journal articles. nableezy - 19:02, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

  And looking back at the move to this title at #Requested_move_18_April_2016 shows that massacre is indeed the common name, with lopsided results in books and scholar for it. If you want to run back that move request sure, but I think in this one we should focus on what is proposed here. nableezy - 21:48, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

• Another thing @Nableezy: Even the notice above this article (and the other one) suggests that it is confused with 2006. --Maudslay II (talk) 17:28, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Name

@Nableezy: @SnowFire: No room to settle for either "First Qana massacre" or "1996 Qana massacre" or "Qana massacre, 1996"? Because the year is really needed in the title. -- Maudslay II (talk) 18:56, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

37? 31?

Hi, the last sentence of the third para in the "Shelling of UN compound" section states: "One man, Saadallah Balhas, lost 37 members of his family in the strike", attr. ref 12. In the "Lawsuit by relatives" section, it is stated that "Among the plaintiffs named in the lawsuit are Saadallah Ali Belhas and his son Ali Saadallah Belhas who lost 31 family members in the shelling including their respective wives and 12 children", attr. ref 36. Given that the numbers are taken from different sources (and assuming that they are taken correctly from them), the discrepancy in numbers is not that odd; however, such a contradiction makes for bad optics in any article. I don't know if it is a problem for anyone, or what the solution should be, but if I owned Wikipedia, I'd probably try to fix this. T 84.208.86.134 (talk) 00:12, 14 June 2021 (UTC) T 84.208.86.134 (talk) 00:13, 14 June 2021 (UTC)