Talk:Pushbacks by Greece

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Pushbacks by Greece article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1: 12 months

Other talk page banners

A fact from Pushbacks by Greece appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 30 November 2021 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Frontex's role in pushbacks of migrants in Greece has led to investigations by the European Parliament, EU Ombudsman, and EU anti-fraud agency?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2021/November. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Pushbacks in Greece.

Wikipedia

On 5 July 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Pushbacks in Greece to Migrant pushbacks in Greece. The result of the discussion was moved.

Human rights Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Human rights on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Human rightsWikipedia:WikiProject Human rightsTemplate:WikiProject Human rightsHuman rights
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Greece Low‑importance

	Greece portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greece on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GreeceWikipedia:WikiProject GreeceTemplate:WikiProject GreeceGreek
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Turkey Low‑importance

	Turkey portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Turkey, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Turkey and related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TurkeyWikipedia:WikiProject TurkeyTemplate:WikiProject TurkeyTurkey
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Ships

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ships, a project to improve all Ship-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other articles, please join the project, or contribute to the project discussion. All interested editors are welcome. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.ShipsWikipedia:WikiProject ShipsTemplate:WikiProject ShipsShips

Beugel's arrest

I removed this sentence from the article, as it was a clear WP:BLP violation in the way that it was inserted. The relevant bits from the policy are: "If the subject has denied such allegations, their denial(s) should also be reported, while adhering to appropriate due weight of all sources covering the subject and avoiding false balance." This was clearly not followed in the sentence that I deleted, which reported the accusation but not her response to it. Another aspect to bear in mind is: "For individuals who are not public figures; that is, individuals not covered by § Public figures, editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed, or is accused of having committed, a crime, unless a conviction has been secured."

I note that whilst her arrest in June was reported at the time by the Guardian, their recent article about the exchange with Mitsotakis fails to mention her arrest. Same goes for Reuters. That to me indicates that her arrest is not directly relevant to the topic of this article and that we must err on the side of omitting it from this article. I must note that Beugel seems to clear the WP:GNG bar - editors might be interested in creating an article about her with more biographical details and then linking from here.

--GGT (talk) 20:08, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Good points. I agree with the removal. Thank you, GGT. Dr. K. 23:27, 1 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Unsigned diatribe

Why aren't editors of this article also contributing to Wikpedia articles of pushbacks in other countries?

As per above...

US pushbacks https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2019/04/usa-government-must-stop-illegal-pushbacks-of-asylum-seekers-to-mexico/

Chinese pushbacks https://www.hrw.org/news/2012/09/06/china-stop-expelling-refugees

Brazilian pushbacks https://www.npr.org/2018/08/20/640350156/venezuelan-refugees-face-violence-and-closed-borders-as-they-try-to-flee

Hungarian pushbacks https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/29944/hungary-4903-pushbacks-after-eu-court-declared-them-illegal

Austrian pushbacks https://www.dw.com/en/austria-persists-with-relentless-hard-line-on-asylum-seekers/a-53232600

Turkish pushbacks https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/oct/14/afghan-refugees-accuse-turkey-of-violent-pushbacks

Dutch pushbacks. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2016/01/dutch-plan-for-eu-refugee-swap-with-turkey-is-morally-bankrupt/

And so on. Google "pushbacks" and pick a country and you'll find no shortage of articles of countries trying to keep out and/or deport migrants including asylum seekers. If I point out the obvious that Greece is being singled out on Wikipedia, someone manipulatively tried to delete my valid criticism without even addressing my point... thus my charge of prejudice. 184.147.248.119 (talk) 06:02, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) called to end pushbacks in Greece.

Where should we insert such information? [1] Which is the most relevant section? Cinadon36 09:23, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also

Even EU citizens are affected: [2] (t · c) buidhe 10:50, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmmm....Maybe the article needs restructuring.Cinadon 36 11:00, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, the source you presented to us here, states the opposite of what you are claiming there. According to the source, the call is for pushback practices to cease across the EU, not just Greece. Per source: ""Violence, ill-treatment and pushbacks continue to be regularly reported at multiple entry points at land and sea borders, within and beyond the European Union despite repeated calls ... to end such practices," Grandi said in a statement.". The source also confirms what I have been saying for months in this talk page: that pushbacks aren't occurring only in Greece, are part of the broader anti-immigration policies of Europe: "Pushbacks have also been occurring in other central and southeastern European countries, Grandi said.". Like I have said above: If you both editors insist that the pushbacks are a Greek thing only, then don't expect the other editors to agree with your calls for article restructuring when such obvious POV issues aren't resolved first, and which are the result of you ignoring what the sources (even the one you presented!) verify about the broader nature of pushbacks. My position still stands: For the POV tag to be removed, the article will need to be renamed and restructured and its scope expanded to cover the "Pushbacks in Europe" as whole instead of framing out a specific external border country like how you did with the title "Pushbacks in Greece". The European Migrant Crisis isn't a country-exclusive thing, is an European, hence the title, and so are the pushbacks of migrants across the EU borders, and hence the article needs to be moved to Pushbacks in Europe.

Also, a side note: I am afraid the POV issues arent limited to this article here. The current right-wing conservative ruling political party of Greece, the New Democracy (ND), appears to be given, in Wikipedia, a more positive spotlight than it should. ND is notorious particularly for its large-scale corruption of state institutions which affected not just the ordinary citizens but also migrants and asylum seekers, financial mismanagement and embezzlement of the EU funds for Migration, and the severe human right violations and abuse of laws against migrants, and the Victor Orban-level of Greek Press Freedom suppression which also affects the objective coverage of immigration-related incidents in the Aegean Sea. I believe all these will have to be mentioned on the Wiki article about that political party, if not here as well, along with the problematic stance of the European People's Party, of which ND is a member.--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 09:56, 2 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 5 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. No participation since last relist. Moved to alternate suggested title "Pushbacks by Greece". (closed by non-admin page mover) ❯❯❯ Raydann ^(Talk) 11:00, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pushbacks in Greece → Migrant pushbacks in Greece – The term "pushbacks" is a bit ambiguous for the average reader, and the new title would naturally disambiguate the article's subject. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 18:01, 5 July 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. ASUKITE 18:53, 13 July 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. ❯❯❯ Raydann ^(Talk) 08:47, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose What ambiguity? What other topic is called by this name? From your proposed title it seems like migrants are doing the pushbacks, which isn't accurate. (t · c) buidhe 18:12, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For starters pushbacks are an aviation term as well, and appear to be the WP:PTOPIC. Would "Pushbacks of migrants in Greece" be better? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 18:16, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you search pushbacks in Greece on Google scholar, literally all the first ten results are about this topic. Same with Google News, so regardless of any hypothetical ambiguity this is the clear primary topic. It's true that the word "pushback" has multiple possible meanings but no other meaning would make sense to have a by country article about it, so I don't know why there would be any confusion (I also doubt that this aviation pushbacks are the primary topic). (t · c) buidhe 21:13, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Human rights has been notified of this discussion. ASUKITE 18:53, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Greece has been notified of this discussion. ASUKITE 18:53, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support This is far too generic term. It can refer to anything, e.g. pushbacks against Athenian imperialism, pushbacks against Spartan hegemony, pushbacks against Macedonian despotism, etc. The proposal is clarifying and helpful. Walrasiad (talk) 20:26, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: Per WP:CONCISE, we should not make an article title longer than it has to be. The current one is not the most precise of title but still precise enough as far as primary topic goes. Also, I would prefer we move this to Pushbacks by Greece instead since it is about any pushback being done by the Greek government specifically. StellarHalo (talk) 00:43, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would also support StellarHalo's suggestion pushbacks by Greece. (t · c) buidhe 01:23, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support and I find ''by Greece'' instead of ''in Greece'' just as good. Killuminator (talk) 08:19, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support clearer meaning. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 17:36, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support as an improvement in clarity. Since "pushback" is frequently used to mean criticism of or resistance to a proposal (quoting Wiktionary here), I don't think it makes for a useful title on its own. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 16:22, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: Relisting to generate consensus between the suggested (longer) title and alternate title Pushbacks by Greece. ❯❯❯ Raydann ^(Talk) 08:47, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The ECHR found Greece guilty for pushbacks

I would like to note a development that may be of significance for the article: the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) found that Greece is involved and responsible for the push-backs that have happened in the Eastern Mediterranean. [3] - ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 04:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]