Talk:Parliament of Scotland

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General Council (Scotland)

I have redirected the link "General Council" to the "General Council (disambiguation)" page, although there is no link to the General Council of the Kingdom of Scotland, because it definitely does not refer to ecclesiastical General Councils, which is where the link led previously. J S Ayer 00:45, 26 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Scots language

A whole lot of anachronistic references to the Scots language have been added in the medieval period. This is not tenable in the period before the 14th century, and probably not before 1424 when Scots began to be used as the official language in which acts of parliament were written. rjt3 3 December 2005

What would be considered the language of the parliament before then? --Qwerty-16 (talk) 13:32, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

List of Parliaments of Scotland

We need a new article - List of Parliaments of Scotland - to match:

Anyone got the relevant info? --Mais oui! 08:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, although it may be a little harder compared to those other articles as a lot of work was done by committee when the Estates were not in session. I still think that we need that article. Benson85 18:29, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I see absolutely no reason whatsoever that the list article cannot include meetings of Lords of the Articles, the General Council, the Convention of Estates, and any other committees or related meetings. In fact, the more comprehensive and descriptive the better: better than a bare list of dates. --Mais oui! 19:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The most obvious secondary source (at least to provide a starting point for the enquiry) may be the work on returns of members compiled for Parliament in the Victorian period. I have found the catalogue entry for the copy of the book in the Westminster Reference Library, but it is likely that major reference libraries in Scotland and other parts of the UK would also have a copy.

Westminster Reference library catalogue description - "Members of Parliament : return of the names of every member returned to serve in each Parliament from the year 1696 up to 1876... : also, from so remote a period as it can be obtained up to the year 1696... : Part 2: Parliaments of Great Britain, 1705-1796; Parliaments of the United Kingdom, 1801-1874; Parliaments and Conventions of the Estates of Scotland, 1357-1707; Parliaments of Ireland, 1559-1800" --Gary J 13:50, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The most up to date list could be compiled with a little effort by using the new Records of the Parliaments of Scotland found online at http://www.rps.ac.uk/ http://www.rps.ac.uk/, which has just gone online. Other Lists are found in Margaret Young's The Parliaments of Scotland (printed, appendix to vol 2) and Roland Tanner, The Late Medieval Scottish Parliament (1424-1488 only). Any lists should include General Councils from 14th to 16th centuries and Conventions of Estates in the 16th centuries.--Benmoreassynt (talk) 18:05, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Convention of Estates

The Convention of Estates link is currently a rather unsatisfactory redirect to The States. Is anyone out there in a decent position to start up the article properly? I ask following this:

Talk:French States-General#Scotland

--Mais oui! 08:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Articles for each constituency

It is high time that we began to think about starting up the articles for the constituencies of the parliament. Perhaps we could start with the redlinks (and replacing the question marks with the relevant info) at the University constituency article:

University	Parliament	Years	No. of Commissioners
Edinburgh	Scotland	?-1707	?
Glasgow	Scotland	?-1707	?
King's College (Aberdeen)	Scotland	?-1707	?
Marischal College (Aberdeen)	Scotland	?-1707	?
St Andrews	Scotland	?-1707	?

Does anyone know the appropriate sources? Are lists of Commissioners from the constituencies available online?

~~In fact, at the moment, we do not even have a list of constituencies, let alone an article on each one. That would be a good start.~~ --Mais oui! 03:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We do have one list - List of Constituencies in the Parliament of Scotland at the time of the Union - although I note that there are no university constituencies listed on it. Is this an error (the source used to compile the list is a late 19th century English one), or were university constituencies abolished prior to the 18th century? Can anyone source list info for pre-18th century Parliaments? --Mais oui! 04:01, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I can confirm that I did not notice any university constituencies, in the source I used for the list of pre-Union Scottish constituencies. Possibly they were in a different section of the book which I did not check. I have however seen a comment somewhere that King James VI and I enfranchised Oxford and Cambridge Universities, in the Parliament of England, as he was used to university constituencies in Scotland. --Gary J 13:21, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. --Mais oui! 13:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The best information on the 'constituencies' of pre 1707 Scotland can be found in M. Young, The Parliaments of Scotland: Burgh and Shire Commissioners. This includes a list of representatives for the burghs and shires (where available) from the 14th century onwards. As far as I know there were no university constituencies at any point, although I stand to be corrected. Benmoreassynt (talk) 21:53, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's quite a substantive list of Scottish parliamentary representation available here. MrPenguin20 (talk) 12:00, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Convention of Estates - poor redirect

Can anyone turn this unsatisfactory redirect into a cited stub article? I would do it myself, but I would be starting from scratch, so if anyone has some prior knowledge they would likely do a better job!

Please see:

Talk:French States-General#Scotland

--Mais oui! 04:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I added a stub a while ago to Convention of Estates of Scotland and also to General Council of Scotland.--Benmoreassynt (talk) 18:26, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Seventeenth Century

As (I'll admit) a non-expert on the subject, the section on Seventeenth Century - specifically regarding the Glorious Revolution (or, if you prefer, Revolution of 1688) strikes me as fairly seriously POV. I mean references to, for example "illegal usurpation", and the words "illegally", "oust", "rightful", "usurping" and "traitors" in the statement that "the English Parliament illegally gave itself the right to oust the rightful king, James II and VII, and formally granted the Crown to the usurping Dutchman, William of Orange, who, in turn, favoured the traitors with huge financial rewards". I'm not reverting it because I think there's some useful information there - the POV stuff just needs weeding out.

We have what appears to me to be a balanced article at Glorious Revolution, though that seems to be rather English-centred (and so not relevant here). I'm relatively new to this and not sure which template to use, so I'll tag it to be checked and if people feel it needs something stronger then they can put it there. Pfainuk 12:26, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have deleted the worst Jacobite language from the last paragraph, striving for simple factual accuracy, but more needs to be done. I will retrieve my copy of Macaulay and do some more work as soon as practical. J S Ayer 16:00, 9 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Further comment: I can confirm that the section starting "was by now composed almost exclusively of those viscerally opposed, to the death, to both Roman Catholicism and Episcopalianism" to " Those remaining loyal to the dispossessed House of Stuart became known as Jacobites (from "Jacobus", the Latin for James)." is entirely unsatisfactory, biased, unsourced, and reads like a political account of the period, not a history of the Scottish parliament. It should be considered for prompt deletion. Arguably it should be deleted even if a replacement is not found. Unfortunately I'm not qualified to write the replacement, but good modern histories of the period have been publish by Gillian Macintosh, Derek Patrick and in "The History of the Scottish Parliament, volume 3: Parliament and Politics, 1560 to 1707" ed K. M. Brown and A. J. Mann, which would form a good basis for sources for the replacement.Benmoreassynt 19:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC) 11 July 2007[reply]

I eventually deleted this because nobody else did. It leaves the 17th century section a bit thin now, but that's better than a really terrible piece of bad polemic.--Benmoreassynt (talk) 18:28, 14 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re: the Union with England heading, starting "it is an oversimplification to claim" reads a little un-encyclopaedic, and it is a topic that is mostly covered in the Act/Treaty of Union article anyway. Perhaps this should be deleted? Benson85 (talk) 05:19, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image of Court of Session, 1532, James V

I've added [[Image:Court.of.Session.1532.James.V.JPG]] to the commons, if it is of interest. It's a photograph from the Great Window in Parliament House. Notuncurious (talk) 20:11, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Linked from Main page today

This article is linked to from Wikipedia's Main Page today (7 December 2008), due to the new Golf in Scotland article appearing as the lead item in the Did you know? column. --Mais oui! (talk) 09:50, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Info Box showing Coat of Arms

The final, pre-1st May 1707, version of the coat of arms used by the monarchs of the Kingdom of Scotland has been placed in the Info Box, as opposed to the escutcheon showing the Lion rampant, which ceased being displayed by itself in 1603. IMO this is highly appropriate given that these were the arms which appeared on all acts passed by the Parliament during the 5 years immediately prior to its dissolution. The arms in the form shown were never used again post 1st May 1707.Endrick Shellycoat 10:11, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So, Wikipedia is to show the coat of arms of the final 5 years of a parliament which sat for 7 centuries? "Undue weight" does not even begin to describe how inappropriate that edit would be. Duly reverted. --Mais oui! (talk) 05:21, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So, instead you insert a symbol not used in the manner shown for over a century prior to the dissolution of the Parliament itself. The arms as shown in the info box were used for 4 centuries prior to the Union of the Crowns, but not once during the period between that event and the Act of Union. "Undue weight" in this context is meaningless and I invite you to revert your own edit.Endrick Shellycoat 09:35, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why on earth should the Wikipedia article focus on the last 5 years of an institution which existed for more than half a millenium? It is typical of the British nationalist tendency around here that the most interesting period of the parliament's existence is the final few years when it chose to commit suicide. Everything must be seen through the rose tinted spectacles of The Union: the ultimate achievement of the human race. Plus ca change. --Mais oui! (talk) 11:51, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're confusing me with someone else, as a trip to my userpage would point out. My point is that the arms I proposed, with the exception of the permanent addition by Charles II of Nemo me impune lacessit and temporary addition by William II of the Orange-Nassau inescutcheon, are those which date from 1603 - over a century before the Parliament was, to use the words of Madame Ecosse, "adjourned". What is more, during this period the Parliament was at its most effective:

"In the second half of the sixteenth century, parliament began to legislate on more and more matters and there was a marked increase in the amount of legislation it produced. During the reign of James VI, the Lords of the Articles came heavily under the influence of the crown. By 1612, they seem to have been appointed by the crown rather than parliament, the independence of which was seriously eroded. This decline was reversed in the Covenanting period (1638-51), when the Scottish parliament took control of the executive, effectively wresting sovereignty from the king and setting many precedents for the constitutional changes undertaken in England soon afterwards. The Covenanting regime fell in 1651 after Scotland was invaded by Oliver Cromwell whose Commonwealth government imposed a brief Anglo-Scottish parliamentary union in 1657.

The Scottish Parliament returned after the Restoration of Charles II to the throne in 1660, and, although initially docile, gradually came to exert considerable influence over the Crown - removing the clergy’s right to attend in 1689 and finally abolishing the Lords of the Articles in 1690. Parliament’s strength was such that the Crown turned to corruption and political management to undermine its autonomy. Nonetheless, the period from 1690 to 1707 was one in which political ‘parties’ and alliances were formed within parliament in a maturing atmosphere of rigorous debate. It is an oversimplification to claim, as Robert Burns memorably did, that the Union of England and Scotland (and hence the dissolution of the Scottish Parliament) was brought about by the members being ‘bought and sold for English gold’, nevertheless bribery, parliamentary division and wider economic imperatives best explain the Crown’s ability to attain a majority in favour of incorporating union with England".

Source: Records of the Parliaments of Scotland

It would seem that the light of the Parliament of Scotland burned at its brightest during this period, prior to its being extinguished in 1707. I am aware of no other instance where a visual reference to a body which no longer exists, (I don't compare the current institution with its predecessor in this case), would be by use of an associated image which was not that version in use during the century leading up to, and immediately prior to, that institution's demise.Endrick Shellycoat 14:35, 2 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Template link issue

An issue was raised at Template talk:Europe topic#Oireachtas which has unearthed a navigation issue. The Euro topic template is transcluded at this article but because of the way it is set up this means that whilst the other links are to modern parliaments, in the case of Scotland (and England, which does not have a modern parliament) it is to the historic one. As far as I can see there is no easy fix, short of making Parliament of Scotland a redirect to Scottish Parliament and moving this article to Estates of Parliament, currently a redirect here. Ben Mac Dui 11:39, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Unintented reversion

Apologies, I appear to have made an unintended reversion a few hours ago. Clumsy fingers presumably. Mutt Lunker (talk) 08:49, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Parliament of Scotland/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Bias With regards to 17th Century History, there is an inherrant Jacobite bias about the Glorious Revolution, calling William and Mary traitors is hardly neutral for reference! Saintees1884 15:21, 28 December 2006 (UTC) This seems to have been removed. With a bit of work this could be a GA candidate. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Last edited at 08:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 02:18, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Image of Linlithgow Palace

The image of Linlithgow Palace with the text that it was a meeting place of the Scottish Parliament in the 15C was removed as being inappropriate. The image was reinstated with the text amended to "meeting place of court". It was removed again as being inappropriate and reinstated again. It is difficult to see why this image has appeared at all as Linlithgow Palace has no relevance in an article on the Scottish Parliament. The inclusion of this image should be justified. An appropriate image would be the Edinburgh Tolbooth where Parliament actually met. 82.33.169.252 (talk) 17:02, 23 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]