Talk:Paradisus Judaeorum

Pars pro toto

This article started out on 25 September 2018, titled "Heaven for [...] nobles, hell for [...] peasants, paradise for [...] Jews". The title was a complete recapitulation of a certain 19th-century Polish saying, but for the absence of the saying's second member: "purgatory for townfolk".

The latter modern saying evolved, largely by condensation, from 5 Latin-language texts, of 1606, 1664, 1672, 1685, and 1708-09, which reflected a jaundiced view of, variously, "the Kingdom of Poland" (the first version), "Poland" (the second version), and "the illustrious Kingdom of Poland" (the last three versions).

The first, third, and fifth versions all feature the quartet of nobles, townfolk, peasants, and Jews. The second and fourth versions are missing the townfolk.

The only consistently present member of the four classes -- in all the 17th-, 18th-, and 19th-century versions -- that has found some fully laudatory interpretations appears to involve "the Jews".

While the 17th- and 18th-century versions and the 19th-century one have sought to characterize, literally or figuratively, the entire Polish polity, this article has ended up with a title, "Paradisus Judaeorum", which suggests that its sole subject is Poland's Jewish population, which until World War II did not exceed 10% of Poland's overall population.

This is surely an instance of pars pro toto -- of using part of a thing to represent the entire thing.

Would it not be better to retitle the core of this article to something like "Regnum Polonorum est..." and to devote a separate article, titled "Paradisus Judaeorum", specifically to the historic vicissitudes of that ethnicity in Poland? Nihil novi (talk) 15:37, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Pars pro toto

This article started out on 25 September 2018, titled "Heaven for [...] nobles, hell for [...] peasants, paradise for [...] Jews". The title was a complete recapitulation of a certain 19th-century Polish saying, but for the absence of the saying's second member: "purgatory for townfolk".

The latter modern saying evolved, largely by condensation, from 5 Latin-language texts, of 1606, 1664, 1672, 1685, and 1708-09, which reflected a jaundiced view of, variously, "the Kingdom of Poland" (the first version), "Poland" (the second version), and "the illustrious Kingdom of Poland" (the last three versions).

The first, third, and fifth versions all feature the quartet of nobles, townfolk, peasants, and Jews. The second and fourth versions are missing the townfolk.

The only consistently present member of the four classes -- in all the 17th-, 18th-, and 19th-century versions -- that has found some fully laudatory interpretations appears to involve "the Jews".

While the 17th- and 18th-century versions and the 19th-century one have sought to characterize, literally or figuratively, the entire Polish polity, this article has ended up with a title, "Paradisus Judaeorum", which suggests that its sole subject is Poland's Jewish population, which until World War II did not exceed 10% of Poland's overall population.

This is surely an instance of pars pro toto -- of using part of a thing to represent the entire thing.

Would it not be better to retitle the core of this article to something like "Regnum Polonorum est..." and to devote a separate article, titled "Paradisus Judaeorum", specifically to the historic vicissitudes of that ethnicity in Poland?

Nihil novi (talk) 21:46, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

The first reference cited in the article (added by a banned user) refers to the text as the "Jewish paradise" proverb. Is it an unreliable source? -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 22:50, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, SashiRolls, for bringing my attention to the misleading caption on the lead illustration.

I have corrected the typographical error "mie", in the citation's Polish text, to "nie" ("no").

The caption read: "1606 Latin pasquinade containing the phrase Paradisus Judaeorum. The text's occasion was a celebration of the December 1605 wedding of Sigismund III Vasa and Constance of Austria."

That caption's clause, "containing the phrase Paradisus Judaeorum", was a red herring, apparently meant to somehow justify the narrow titling of this article – which discusses texts that deal with all the classes and groups of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth – as "Paradisus Judaeorum" ("paradise for Jews").

I have replaced that caption with a new one: "1606 Latin text that has been described as a pasquinade "planted" at celebration of the 11 December 1605 wedding of Poland's King Sigismund III Vasa to Constance of Austria."

It would appear that the original, "1606" version of the "pasquinade" – mentioned in the caption citation as having "[i]n the Czartoryskis' manuscript [been included under] a joint title [as] 'Pasquinades Planted at Royal Wedding Celebration'" – had actually been written, and delivered at the 1605 wedding reception, in 1605.

Best,

Nihil novi (talk) 02:54, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi Nn. While I'm glad I helped you find a typo, what I'm referring to is the source in the first line of the lede, added by GizzyCatBella and titled "From Xenophobia to Golden Age: "Jewish Paradise” Proverb as a Linguistic Reclamation". The author speaks of the poem as being "forgotten" and suggests its lasting influence was the term mentioned in the title of the article (and of this entry).

Kijek (2017) noted that the original poem was “anti-Jewish… [and] claims that the good living conditions Jews enjoyed in Poland were something that should change.”

Kirshenblatt-Gimblett, however, went further, summarizing the original text as “a pasquinade critical of everything in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth—foreigners, immigrants, ‘heretics,’ peasants, burghers, and servants, and also Jews,” pointing out that the Jews were hardly the only group targeted by the rather xenophobic author of this satire (Grabowski (sic) 2016).

This is the source I'm asking you if you consider reliable. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 03:15, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

You wrote above of "[t]he first reference cited in the article". The first reference, designated "1", appears in – and is identical in – the lead-illustration caption and at the end of the "History of versions" first paragraph, and does not include the texts you cite immediately above; nor do I see those texts elsewhere. Could you help me locate them?

Thanks.

Nihil novi (talk) 06:46, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Here's a diff to help you find the title in red in the references cited section (the first source cited in the body of the text). -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 08:37, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Pars pro toto

This article started out on 25 September 2018, titled "Heaven for [...] nobles, hell for [...] peasants, paradise for [...] Jews". The title was a complete recapitulation of a certain 19th-century Polish saying, but for the absence of the saying's second member: "purgatory for townfolk".

The latter modern saying evolved, largely by condensation, from 5 Latin-language texts, of 1606, 1664, 1672, 1685, and 1708-09, which reflected a jaundiced view of, variously, "the Kingdom of Poland" (the first version), "Poland" (the second version), and "the illustrious Kingdom of Poland" (the last three versions).

The first, third, and fifth versions all feature the quartet of nobles, townfolk, peasants, and Jews. The second and fourth versions are missing the townfolk.

The only consistently present member of the four classes -- in all the 17th-, 18th-, and 19th-century versions -- that has found some fully laudatory interpretations appears to involve "the Jews".

While the 17th- and 18th-century versions and the 19th-century one have sought to characterize, literally or figuratively, the entire Polish polity, this article has ended up with a title, "Paradisus Judaeorum", which suggests that its sole subject is Poland's Jewish population, which until World War II did not exceed 10% of Poland's overall population.

This is surely an instance of pars pro toto -- of using part of a thing to represent the entire thing.

Would it not be better to retitle the core of this article to something like "Regnum Polonorum est..." and to devote a separate article, titled "Paradisus Judaeorum", specifically to the historic vicissitudes of that ethnicity in Poland? Nihil novi (talk) 22:44, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

@Nihil novi I agree. The article was originally created under Heaven for the nobles, Purgatory for the townspeople, Hell for the peasants, and Paradise for the Jews. In 2018 it was requested to be moved to Paradisus Judaeorum (Talk:Paradisus_Judaeorum/Archive_1#Requested_move_7_November_2018), which ended up in no consensus. However, few months ago the indef-banned user you are quite familiar with AfD this, which ended up in an atypical 'keep but rename' to the current title: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Heaven for the nobles, Purgatory for the townspeople, Hell for the peasants, and Paradise for the Jews. I requested a move back in Talk:Paradisus_Judaeorum/Archive_3#The_Kingdom_of_Poland_Is... (to Poland was heaven for the nobility, purgatory for town dwellers, hell for peasants, and paradise for Jews), but there was no consensus for move back. Feel free to start a new RM, and I'd support a move to a longer title - full name of the poem. This the original and intended name of the article, which is about the entire poem. Yes, the 'Paradisus Judaeorum' is its most important and discussed part, but Kot (1937) wrote his monograph about the entire poem (and titled it as such). Unfortunately, I cannot locate my scans of Krzyżanowski from few years ago to check what is the title of his book chapter about it, which IIRC is the second most comprehensive work used. The third work dedicated to this that I recall is my own paper ([1]) which used the English, not Latin name in the title. It is dedicated to the 'Paradisus Judaeorum' part, however, not the entire poem, and given that I've published a peer review work on this (arguably I am the only still-alive author to have done this, AFAIK), for what my expert opinion is worth, I'd again support renaming this article here. I don't think a split is warranted - this article is comprehensive and not too long. As for the dilemma we faced back then, which is no authoritative English translation for the title, I'd suggest a shorter Poland was a paradise for Jews, hell for peasants, and heaven for the nobility, which is the correct translation of the variant of the name used by Kot (Polska rajem dla Żydów, piekłem dla chłopów, niebem dla szlachty), although your suggestion of Regnum Polonorum est... has merit as well (but it is not very often used by the sources). Maybe we could just go with English Poland was...? I am open to considering other suggestions if you have any. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:54, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

@Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus:

Thanks for recounting how this article came by its present title.

Titles of Wikipedia articles, with very few exceptions – this article's title is the only one that comes to mind – reflect the articles' subjects with elegant concision. They seldom exceed 3-5 words. Unduly long titles can frustrate readers who wish to refer to an article.

I would therefore propose that this article be titled to reflect the openings of the five Latin pasquinades quoted in extenso:

1. "The Kingdom of Poland is..." (1606)

2. "Poland is..." (1664)

3. "The illustrious Kingdom of Poland is..." (1672)

4. "The illustrious Kingdom of Poland is..." (1685)

5. "The illustrious Kingdom of Poland is..." (1708–09).

A satisfactory, concise title for this article might be "The Kingdom of Poland is..." – which, happily for priority, is the opening of the earliest pasquinade.

This article's extensive "Paradisus Judaeorum" section could then be integrated into the "History of the Jews in Poland" article, with benefit to both articles.

Nihil novi (talk) 03:56, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

@Nihil novi I am fine with renaming this to The Kingdom of Poland is..., but I do not see why we would need to remove any content from it? I am not opposed to improving (adding content) to History of the Jews in Poland, but I think the current article here is in satisfactory shape (outside its name). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Sounds good.

Nihil novi (talk) 07:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

See discussion above. Start an RM if you wish to contradict the cited sources. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 11:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)