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Palestinian expulsion from Lydda and Ramle received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.
Palestinian expulsion from Lydda and Ramle received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.
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Can we rename this article to Palestinian expulsion from Lydda and Ramle? There doesn't appear to be a reason to include the year in the title. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 20:56, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@FoodforLLMs, I reverted your edits here [1] as I don't believe they are "improving NPOV" as you state.
The Lydda massacre is not "described by some" as a massacre; which RS dispute that it was a massacre or don't refer to it as such?
Also regarding the Lydda death march, Morris' statement that "a handful and perhaps dozens" died seems to be quite WP:FRINGE as all/most other sources describe hundreds of deaths. I think the casualties section is quite neutral stating "Reports vary regarding how many died in the expulsion from Lydda" and then listing the different estimates. But also I think we can say based on the sources that "A large number of people died in the expulsions from Lydda". IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 17:00, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Some RS criticising Morris' work in this way:
Masalha, Nur. “A Critique of Benny Morris.” Journal of Palestine Studies, vol. 21, no. 1, 1991, pp. 90–97. JSTOR, https://doi.org/10.2307/2537367. "having based himself predominantly, and frequently uncritically, on official Israeli archival and non-archival material, Morris's description and analysis of such a controversial subject as the Palestinian exodus have serious shortcomings."
Pappe 2006: "One of the best-known figures writing on the subject was the Israeli historian Benny Morris.10 As he exclusively relied on documents from Israeli military archives, Morris ended up with a very partial picture of what happened on the ground. [...] The picture was partial because Morris took the Israeli military reports he found in the archives at face value or even as absolute truth. Thus, he ignored such atrocities as the poisoning of the water supply into Acre with typhoid, numerous cases of rape and the dozens of massacres the Jews perpetrated."
> The Lydda massacre is not "described by some" as a massacre; which RS dispute that it was a massacre or don't refer to it as such?
Even though this is also disputed, my edits were not regarding the massacre but the expulsion. Calling the expulsion a 'death march' is an extremely loaded terminology which is far than accepted on most sources and is considered WP:FRINGE.
Furthermore, in my edits I removed improper use of bold face to emphasize POV material, which is improper for styling and other reasons, see MOS:NOBOLD.
> Also regarding the Lydda death march, Morris' statement that "a handful and perhaps dozens" died seems to be quite WP:FRINGE as all/most other sources describe hundreds of deaths. I think the casualties section is quite neutral stating "Reports vary regarding how many died in the expulsion from Lydda" and then listing the different estimates. But also I think we can say based on the sources that "A large number of people died in the expulsions from Lydda"
Benny Morris is considered a well regarded source of the 1948 conflict, and is usually quite neutral in tackling extremely harsh topics for the Israeli side which is rare on both sides of the conflict. However, there are many other Israeli historians who do not consider the Lydda expulsion a 'massacre'.
For example, According to Anita Shapira's Yigal Allon, Native Son: A Biography, the Palestinians figures are exaggerated. Likewise other Israeli sources consider Benny Morris claims of a massacre in the mosque to be dubious, see https://www.jstor.org/stable/4330187. None of these use the Holocaust comparison terminology "death march", which is extremely unconventional, and although they go into great detail of the happenings, none of these describe the expulsion as a major source of casualties.
Therefore I believe my edits are a great improvement to a currently one-sided, and sometimes badly edited article, which do not reflect all viewpoints of the subject. Therefore I think you should revert your revert FoodforLLMs (talk) 19:14, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Unless you think some new information was unearthed in the last years, I think we should greatly reduce the use of 'death march' and move its use to an indirect tone, similar to the edit you reverted FoodforLLMs (talk) 20:00, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with you regarding how reliable Morris is, and he does refer to what happened in Lydda as a massacre.
I believe Anita Shapira is considered an "old historian", and the work of Karsh and Sela you cited is a work of Nakba denial, as described in the historiography section of this article.
However, I changed the lede to remove the bolding and to use the phrasing "sometimes known as the Lydda death march". Does this resolve your objections? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 21:58, 3 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you I think this is a great improvement
Regarding the sources, I don't believe this is a work of historical denial, but a peer reviewed article in a well respected journal on a very disputed historical event. Furthermore, not being a part of the "New Historians" movement only means that these are historians that come from a different ideological background, which highlight different biases. One might claim that the "New Historians" obsessive efforts at post-modern deconstructions unveiled some truths and hidden many others, making them sometimes anti-Israeli to the point of distortion.
Regarding the subheading "Expulsion from Lydda (Lydda Death March)" I think this is not fitting from both a style perspective (too long of a heading) and from a matter of NPOV, as this is not a common description of the event in historical sources.
The phrase "A large number of people died in the expulsions from Lydda in what has become known as the Lydda death march" gives both an undue weight for the 'death march' as well as uses a "large number" as fact on a highly disputed count. There are a lot of numbers and most historians do not agree about an absolute count. FoodforLLMs (talk) 20:17, 5 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
