Talk:Northern Ireland/Archive 18

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Archive 17

Archive 18

Proposed compromise

Considering Snowded and GoodDay are intent on ignoring my requests for views on a potential compromise solution, and other objectors in the same discussion overlooking it or intentionally not commenting on it I am reposting it here in its own section so that it can be easily seen by all and discussed if anyone wishes too.

As the main sticking point for the objectors is the fact the Ulster Banner is no longer de jure and thus in their eyes invalid for use, then why not simply provide the date that it was de jure such as I have done in an example in my User:Mabuska/sandbox. Maybe make the years bigger and add the hatnote that was added to the Ulster Banner at the start of this discussion and what complaints can you have? Its easy to reference that this was the de jure flag between those years so there can be no sourcing issues either.

Most of us seem to agree that there is no need for the Union Flag as that is the flag of the UK as a whole not for a specific region, and removing it and only using the Ulster Banner keeps it consistent with the other three UK constituent country articles. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:45, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Agree with leaving out the UK flag. @Banner: it has its place in an article about flags in Northern Ireland, but as it is not the official flag of N.I., I would keep the situation without flags in the infobox. Cuoregr (talk) 10:56, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree with using the Ulster Banner in the infobox with annotations as it makes it clear. However I wouldn't rule out the Union Flag if we continuously have biased objections as that is the default flag in the absence of one as we do it for Akrotiri and Dhekelia. It should be one or the other but it would be better if we use the Ulster Banner. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 11:16, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

@Cuoregr: @The C of E: - just to point out in case it was missed, the main point of the compromise is the addition of when the flag was official. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:57, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

The point wasn't missed, but IMHO it's better to have no flag as long as there is no official flag. I do like the efforts to reach a compromise, but I fail to see why a flag that is forbidden to be flown from (some/all?) NI official buildings should be on this prominent spot on Wikipedia. In case you're wondering: this has nothing to do with taking sides. I love my own flag, but I would also like to see it removed from places where it doesn't belong. Cuoregr (talk) 12:48, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

I am not opposing the compromise, I support it. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 12:53, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

The British flag should be excluded from infobox. This isn't the article United Kingdom. As for the Ulster Banner? Either it presently is the flag of Northern Ireland or it is not. If it is, put in the infobox, otherwise leave it out. GoodDay (talk) 13:43, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

By that rationale we should then follow the example of Akrotiri and Dhekelia and use the Union Flag as they use it by default owing to the lack of an official individual flag. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 13:59, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

My concern is the UK constituent countries. The Union Jack isn't in the infoboxes of England, Scotland & Wales, therefore it shouldn't be the infobox of Northern Ireland. GoodDay (talk) 14:02, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

In the body of the article but not the information box is the most sensible, However the whole idea is to assemble all the sources, get a neutral admin to manage the agreement of a text for an RFI then see. Show some patience ----Snowded ^TALK 18:07, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

There is no real compromise between having the Ulster Banner in the infobox and not having the Ulster Banner in the infobox. Saying it is de facto or whatever is not a compromise, one might as well say putting the text in a different font or size is a compromise. It used to be the flag of Northern Ireland and it is still referred to that because nothing better has been substituted, but it is not the flag of Northern Ireland and it does not enjoy general support as the flag of Northern Ireland. I am not convinced even Unionists in general are happy with it being waved around in their name.

I would be happy with either no flag or the Union Flag being in the box. There was a referendum and the majority supported the Union. There is an argument about it not being specific but until an actual flag of Northern Ireland comes along I think that is a reasonable choice. Dmcq (talk) 20:24, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Not sure. I support either the Jack or the Banner being displayed, depending on whether we consider de iure or de facto to be superior for representation of administrative entities.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 17:54, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

There is a symbols section in the article. It has the flax plant (a relatively new symbol) but not the Ulster Banner. I would support the inclusion of the Ulster Banner in that section given its frequent use to represent Northern Ireland in sport. But not any other flag. And I'd remove the coat of arms from the history section, as its inclusion there could be perceived as pointed.

I don't think it's possible to have the Ulster Banner in the infobox so long as it remains prohibited from being display on government buildings in Northern Ireland. Its prohibition makes clear that it is not a de jure flag of Northern Ireland - and if a flag is prohibited from display on government buildings in a territory then it's pretty hard to claim with confidence that it is the de facto flag of that territory either.

I think the most sensible position is to recognise that at this time Northern Ireland has no flag (no more or less than the island of Ireland has sporting teams, but, at this time, no flag). --Tóraí (talk) 19:41, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Geographic areas normally don't have their own flags though.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 20:06, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

They also don't normally have sporting organisation either. In both cases, Ireland and Northern Ireland, we're dealing with exceptional examples.

The reason I mentioned it is because a/the main argument in favour of adding the Ulster Banner to the infobox here appears to be that some sporting organisations use it to represent Northern Ireland. Likewise, all-island sporting organisations (e.g. GAA, IRFU, Golfing Union of Ireland, Irish Amateur Boxing Association, etc.) have used the Four Provinces Flag, so the same argument would apparently apply.

I'm not convinced in either case. We use those flags in articles relating to those specific sports and organisations. But where it is not specific, such as here, we don't. --Tóraí (talk) 08:11, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

I take it you are talking about the 2000 Flag Regulations. Could you give the extract that references the Ulster Banner? Eckerslike (talk) 20:56, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

The relevant section is "Prohibition on the flying of flags other than in accordance with the Regulations. 9. Except as provided by these Regulations, no flag shall be flown at any government building at any time." The flags that may be flown on various occasions are: the Union Flag, the Royal Standard, the European Flag, and the national flag of the country of a visiting head of state. Dmcq (talk) 22:29, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

So there is no reference. An accurate description is not that the UB is prohibited but that it is not one of the flags mentioned as allowed to be flown from a Britsh government building. The relevance of this to the unofficial flag of Northern Ireland is therefore pure speculation by the editor. Eckerslike (talk) 23:23, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Plus it is allowed to be flown over local government buildings, and indeed it is done so by a number. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 07:14, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Eckerslike, flags not provided for by the regulations are prohibited under section 9 of the UK regulations ("Prohibition on the flying of flags..."). The Ulster Banner is not one of these provided for and is therefore prohibited. --Tóraí (talk) 07:37, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

You can read the PDF attached to [1] for the current government interpretation of the various flags regulations in the UK. That explicitly mentions all the other flags allowed around the UK like Saint Georges flag or flags of some counties - but no Ulster Banner. Dmcq (talk) 08:25, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for providing that document. I have been searching for it without sucess. In regards to the flying of consituent country flags it states the following

"St George’s Day takes place on 23 April each year, and under the current guidance, the cross of St George may be flown from UK Government buildings ... The Union Flag takes precedence over all national flags and the cross of St George is not flown on any other days"

"St Andrew’s Day takes place on 30 November each year and under the current guidance, the cross of St Andrew may be flown from UK Government buildings on St Andrew’s Day"

"St David’s Day takes place on 1 March each year and under the current guidance, the Red Dragon may be flown from UK Government buildings on St David’s Day"

Thus the national flags of England, Scotland and Wales are prohibited from flying from govenment buildings unless it is a day celabrating the patron saint. Northern Ireland doesn't have a patron saint thus there is no day when the flag is flown. Should we remove the flags from the other constituent countries because of this prohibition? Eckerslike (talk) 17:09, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

I say we should maintain consistency so if no flag here then no flag at those articles. Mabuska ^(talk) 17:15, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Northern Ireland's patron saint is Saint Patrick, hence St. Patrick's Cross. I don't know precisely how that is legislated alongside tradition, but St. Patrick is devoted to NI.--Sıgehelmus (Talk) |д=) 18:46, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Neither Saint David's nor Saint Patrick's flags are counted as national flags in the regulations. The national flag of Wales is the Red Dragon, but the Welsh Assembly also flies Saint David's flag on his day. There is no national flag for Northern Ireland and no provision to even fly Saint Patrick's flag. Dmcq (talk) 23:17, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Nowhere does the guidance document say the flags of England, Scotland and Wales are prohibited from being flown on government buildings. In fact, it says the very opposite:

• "...the cross of St George may be flown from UK Government buildings..."
• "...the cross of St Andrew may be flown from UK Government buildings..."
• "...the Red Dragon may be flown from UK Government buildings..."

In contrast to this, UK law prohibits the Ulster Banner from being flown from UK Government buildings in Northern Ireland at any time. And the guidance document from the UK government on UK flags makes no mention of the Ulster Banner. --Tóraí (talk) 23:41, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Interestingly the flag of Saint Patrick is allowed to be flown on non-governmental buildings without requiring the consent of the local council. However there is no such provision for the Ulster Banner. Dmcq (talk) 11:21, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

And I went to a wedding recently where they had a big flag with the family crests on a flagpole on the top of the building. So that even followed the regulations about not requiring consent except I'm sure it was more than two square meters in size :) Dmcq (talk) 11:42, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Evidence list in respect of the Ulster Banner

Please provide material in the following lists without argument so we can be objective about this

Third Party Sources

Please list any sources that explicitly state that the Ulster Banner is de facto the flag of Northern Ireland

• Britannica article on "Flag of Northern Ireland": "... when the government of Northern Ireland was disbanded in March 1972, its arms and flag officially disappeared; however, the flag continues to be used by groups (such as sports teams) representing the territory in an unofficial manner." This is consistent with our article on Flag of Northern Ireland.
  • The Britannica article on Northern Ireland does not show any flag for Northern Ireland. The Britannica's articles on England and Scotland do show their respective flags.

• Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations: "The flag of the Northern Irish, the unofficial flag of the pronvice, is a white field divided by a centered red cross of St. George, bearing a centered six pointed star with a red hand below a gold crown".
• News Letter "Before his speech accepting victory, Mr Wilson’s party colleagues cheered and waved a flag above his head; apparently a kind of medley of the Northern Irish flag, the Union Flag, and others."
• Belfast Telegraph " Someone in Chicago even managed to conjure up a Northern Ireland flag to enshroud McIlroy."
• Trade Marks Act 1994 - Lists "the flag of England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland or the Isle of Man" under specially protected emblems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eckerslike (talk • contribs) 18:42, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
• Dorling Kindersley
• A possible one though not sure if it meets RS
• Scan of quoted pages Smith, Whitney, Flags and Arms Across The World, p226 - Features the flags of the UK subdivisions including the Ulster Flag to represent Northern Ireland
• Scan of quoted pages Znamierowski, Alfred (2003). Illustrated Book of Flags: The Complete Encyclopedia of International Flags, Banners, Standards and Ensigns. London: Southwater / Anness Publishing Ltd. pp. 148–149. ISBN 978-1842158814. "Presented here are the flags of the four parts of the United Kingdom (England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland)... England, National Flag, The red cross of St George on a white field... a white saltire of St Andrew has been the Scottish national symbol (since the 15th century on a blue field)... Wales, National Flag, The red dragon (Y Ddraig Goch)... white and green were the livery colours of the Welsh Prince LLewellyn... Northern Ireland, National Flag, The star representing the six counties is ensigned with the royal crown and charged with the red hand of Ulster." Miles Creagh (talk) 05:04, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
• Northern Ireland Foundation - Another relatively commonly used flag is the Northern Ireland flag, also referred to as the Ulster Banner.. It then goes into its official status and all but regardless calls it commonly used as well as calls it the Northern Ireland flag. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:51, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Uses

Please list examples of its use in representational situations

• FIFA Northern Ireland
• UEFA Northern Ireland
• Commonwealth Games Northern Ireland
• Miss World Northern Ireland
• Flown on horseback alongside the flags of England, Scotland and Wales at the Queen's official 90th birthday celebrations on 15th May 2016 (Source please for the above)
• PGA Tour
• INF
• FIVB

Deprecation

Please list examples where flag is deprecated or not used where use would otherwise be expected.

• [2] Lord Kilclooney advocates the creation of a new flag for Northern Ireland.
• [3] The Queen used St Patrick's Saltire in her Diamond Jubilee Pageant.
• [4] Arlene Foster says she would be happy to use the Saint Patrick's Cross.

Prohibitions

• The Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000 prohibits the flying of the Ulster Banner from Government Buildings in Northern Ireland.

Parliamentary debates

• 11/12/2012 Lord Kilclooney: "....In the United Kingdom, the union flag is the flag of Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland; but Scotland, Wales and England also have their own local flags. Would it not be a good idea, given that flags are a divisive issue in Northern Ireland, to put our minds together to get a flag—as well as the union jack—to which Roman Catholics and Protestants, unionists and nationalists, and anyone can give joint loyalty? So far, we have no Northern Ireland flag. Is it not time we started to design a flag that would appeal to everyone?"

• 21/11/2000 David Trimble: "Interestingly, in 1922, when the Royal Ulster Constabulary was being formed, the then Unionist Government proposed that there be a new badge, which would have been, one might even say, unambiguously Unionist, as it would have embodied what we call the Northern Ireland flag surmounted with the crown."

Comments on the evidence list or third party sources

• Note: The Flag Regulations 2000 make no reference to the Ulster Banner. The relevance is thus the interpretation of the editor. Eckerslike (talk) 17:36, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

"Except as provided by these Regulations, no flag shall be flown at any government building at any time." (source) As you say, the regulations make no reference to the Ulster Banner and so under UK law it is prohibited from being flown at any government buildings at any time in Northern Ireland. --Tóraí (talk) 22:27, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

• I still don't see any third party source which says the banner is the def facto flag of Northern Ireland. I see examples of use only ----Snowded ^TALK 17:50, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Both the first two sources refer to it as the Flag of Northern Ireland Eckerslike (talk) 18:02, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Not really. The Brittanica does not use it in the article on Northern Ireland, and says it is unofficial in the article on the Flag (which is the reference). The second article says it is the flag of the Northern Irish, and lists other flags in the same paragraph .... ----Snowded ^TALK 18:30, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Except on the second source, the other flags mentioned are not referred to as the Northern Irish flag, only the Ulster Banner is called as such. It says the Ulster Banner is the flag of the Northern Irish and later goes on to talk about the Orange Order as the largest organisation in NI. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 18:41, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

The publication is "Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations" not state or county, and it talks about the "Northern Irish" not "Northern Ireland". Dmcq (talk) 20:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

It refers to it as the "unofficial flag of the province" as well. Eckerslike (talk) 20:21, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

It does, which is not the same thing as de-facto. The source is a book by an independent researcher which doesn't appear to have any institutional backing but its citations are OK. so in so far as it goes it is useful. However it identifies other flags in use and also places it in the context of the Troubles. In the case of Wales and England there are no competing flags, nor any substantive dispute whereas here there is. To me that says there is support to say that it has been used as an unofficial flag in the body of the article, linked to the Flags order (which says only Union Jack and conspicuously does not allow for the Ulster Banner) but not to place it in the information box. ----Snowded ^TALK 20:44, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

They are not competing in the claim of being the national flag. The Orange order one is just listed as the flag of the largest organisation in NI with no disclaimer as to if this is a government organisation or not; thus the source is not claiming the OO flag is the flag of NI, just that it is that of its largest organisaton by membership. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 08:15, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Expect the goal posts of what's acceptable to be continually moved as has been happening. Unofficial is as good as de facto especially if it proves common usage and the fact if it was official we wouldn't need sources for de facto. At the end of the day whilst consensus is what is needed it does not need to be universal and if there are onlymone or two left opposing then even the biggest objector can ultimately be ignored at the end of the day if they are being unreasonable. Mabuska ^(talk) 13:15, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Lets focus on the evidence shall we? Once we have that and we AGREE the terms of an RfC we can resolve it, you're commentary on the motivations of other editors is not helpful (or accurate) Mabuska. We can leave it for a few days to see what else is posted by way of evidence and commentary. I think we then need to bring in a neutral Admin to manage agreement on the language of the RfC. ----Snowded ^TALK 06:03, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Plenty of references saying the Ulster Banner is the unofficial flag of Northern Ireland above, along with widespread evidence of its use as such. But support bringing in neutral admin. — Jon C.^ॐ 10:30, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

@Snowded: no offence but your personal history on this topic over the years and your highly biased and partisan views on it deny you the right of acting as the self-appointed adjudicator of what is valid or not source wise. After all you called it a sectarian flag (highly dubious, shall we post the picture of Catholic Rory McIlroy draped it in and smiling again?) despite providing no evidence at all other than your own personal viewpoint. In asking for a source for the Queens birthday pageant despite having watched the clip before (as evident by your comments Talk:Flag_of_Northern_Ireland/Archive_3#Video_as_source here) shows a high amount of disingenuity. These are all valid concerns and deny you of your pretense of non-bias on this issue. If anything the Reliable Sources Noticeboard should be asked to debate whether the above are valid or not, not you. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:38, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

@Mabuska:Try not to make false accusations. I didn't ask for a source someone else did. Having said that my having seen it before would not constitute a source anyway. Feel free to either apologise or delete the accusation and this comment if you can't manage that ----Snowded ^TALK 18:05, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

There are many additional sources relevant to this discussion in the prior discussion to be found here:

http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Talk:Countries_of_the_United_Kingdom#In_support_of_the_flags_of_England.2C_Northern_Ireland.2C_Scotland_and_Wales_to_all_be_displayed_together

Personally, I find two reliable source(reference to Whitney Smith & Znamierowski listed above), authored by preeminent vexillologists, to be quite persuasive:

Miles Creagh (talk) 05:04, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Miles. Both Smith and Znamierowski are respected vexillologists and therefore reliable sources. — Jon C.^ॐ 09:01, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Another one to add to the list of precedents elsewhere on Wikipedia: Réunion, whose official flag is that of France. The unofficial Lö Mahavéli, which is flown by several city councils (as in NI), is shown as the flag of the territory in the absence of an official unique one. — Jon C.^ॐ 12:19, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

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Questions and comments

This is a good article. It is well structured and it's informative. I made some improvements and I have a few comments.

1. "In the late 1960s, conflict between state forces and chiefly Protestant unionists on the one hand, and chiefly Catholic nationalists on the other, erupted into three decades of violence known as the Troubles, which claimed over 3,500 lives and caused over 50,000 casualties."

"The Troubles, which started in the late 1960s, consisted of about thirty years of recurring acts of intense violence during which 3,254 people were killed with over 50,000 casualties."

It's not clear to me what "3,500 lives"/"3,254 people" and "50,000 casualties" mean. Aren't claimed lives, killed people and casualties the same thing? There must be some difference I cannot understand.

2. "Following the victory of 1691 ...."

What victory is it? The sentence is not clear. It should be more direct.

3. "While the majority of disenfranchised electors were Protestant, but Catholics were over-represented since they were poorer and had more adults still living in the family home."

This sentence is hanging and it should be fixed.

4. "In 2007, 36% of the population defined themselves as unionist, 24% as nationalist and 40% defined themselves as neither."

Is this in the context of the people living in the 6 counties?

5. "Although some news bulletins since the 1990s have opted to avoid all contentious terms and use the official name, Northern Ireland, the term "the North" remains commonly used by broadcast media in the Republic."

Is the last word referring to the Republic of Ireland?

6. " triple the amount there were in 2001."

What is that "triple" referring to? It sounds ambiguous.

ICE77 (talk) 23:04, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Religion section

I've reverted an edit which changed:

In the 2011 census, 41.5% of the population identified as belonging to Protestant or other non-Roman Catholic Christian denominations. The biggest of these denominations were the Presbyterian Church (19%), the Church of Ireland (14%) and the Methodist Church (3%).

to:

At the 2011 census, 41.5% of the population identified as Protestant, the biggest denominations being the Presbyterian Church (19%), the Church of Ireland (14%) and the Methodist Church (3%).

The 5.8% that identified as "Christian, other" will be mostly of protestant derivation but also includes non-RC denominations that are not of protestant origin. Obvious examples are Eastern Orthodox and Assyrian Churches that split from the Catholic Church long before the Reformation. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 12:05, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Good point. My latest edit should have dealt with it. Haldraper (talk) 12:33, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Wildlife

There is no section on wildlife. Should it be added? Any thoughts?Osborne 17:06, 10 September 2017 (UTC) It has been started now!Osborne 19:46, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

The article on the island of Ireland has an entry on flora and fauna and there's also a separate article Fauna of Ireland. I don't think an entry is needed under the constituent countries - they are more political articles and the wildlife doesn't seem to have any great respect for the border. Dmcq (talk) 20:11, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes I'd move that info you put in to the Ireland or Fauna articles. At the most I'd put a very minimal section here which just refers to them. Dmcq (talk) 20:26, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Larne Gun Running and links to the Kaiser in 1913-1914

Can someone add in a section on the Larne Gun Running Episode, and expand on the links between the German Kaiser and Unionist Community? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.224.32.138 (talk) 15:28, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Why? 1) it's too specific for a general article like this one and 2) it's from before Northern Ireland existed so not in the article's scope from a time perspective. Canterbury Tail talk 15:39, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 January 2018

Change Secretary of State to Karen Bradley. 94.173.179.46 (talk) 20:05, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Done. Mabuska ^(talk) 20:13, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

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Edit proposal

In the Symbols section, a paragraph currently reads:

The United Kingdom national anthem of "God Save the Queen" is often played at state events in Northern Ireland. At the Commonwealth Games and some other sporting events, the Northern Ireland team uses the Ulster Banner as its flag—notwithstanding its lack of official status—and the Londonderry Air (usually set to lyrics as Danny Boy), which also has no official status, as its national anthem. The national football team also uses the Ulster Banner as its flag but uses "God Save The Queen" as its anthem. Major Gaelic Athletic Association matches are opened by the Irish national anthem, "Amhrán na bhFiann (The Soldier's Song)", which is also used by most other all-Ireland sporting organisations. Since 1995, the Ireland rugby union team has used a specially commissioned song, "Ireland's Call" as the team's anthem. The Irish national anthem is also played at Dublin home matches, being the anthem of the host country.

My changes are proposed below (in bold):

The United Kingdom national anthem of "God Save the Queen" is often played at state events in Northern Ireland. At the Commonwealth Games and some other sporting events, the Northern Ireland team uses the flag of Northern Ireland as its flag—notwithstanding its lack of official status—and the Londonderry Air (usually set to lyrics as Danny Boy), which also has no official status, as its national anthem. This is in common with the unofficial status of the flags of England and Scotland for those respective countries and with the unofficial statuses of the anthems 'Jerusalem', 'Land of Hope and Glory' for England; "Scotland the Brave", "Flower of Scotland", and "Scots Wha Hae" for Scotland; and 'Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau' for Wales. The Walsh dragon flag and the Union Jack are the only two flags that have any 'official status' in the UK, and 'God Save the Queen' is the only official national anthem. The national football team also uses the flag of Northern Ireland but uses "God Save The Queen" as its anthem. Major Gaelic Athletic Association matches are opened by the national anthem of the Republic of Ireland, "Amhrán na bhFiann (The Soldier's Song)", which is also used by most other all-Ireland sporting organisations. Since 1995, the Ireland rugby union team has used a specially commissioned song, "Ireland's Call" as the team's anthem. The national anthem of the Republic of Ireland is also played at Dublin home matches, being the anthem of the host country.

Rationale: Perspective and context. There is no "official status" for any of the sub-national flags except for the Welsh one, which exists in legislation. The Scottish flag may also have some official status, as it was debated in the Scottish Assembly back in 2000 or so. None of the national anthems have any "official status" either. The way the paragraph read before, seemed to be suggesting that Northern Ireland was somehow unique in this context. It isn't.

Also, I propose a change to the name of the flag of Northern Ireland. It is really only correctly and technically called the Ulster Banner, so far as I'm aware, when it forms part of the Coat of Arms of Northern Ireland. The common name for the flag is the "flag of Northern Ireland", and often "the Northern Irish flag". You may call it a "fleg" if you like! (bad humour!)

I think we need a citation with regard to the statement "most other all-Ireland sporting organisations". I'm not convinced there are that many of them, really. We could probably be specific about them. Golf, for example, is organised on an all-island basis, right? With provincial regional bodies? But international golf has people represent Northern Ireland (and Scotland, England and Wales). Is there any national anthem played at these games? Hockey seems to use a special flag - a shield of the four provinces. Do they play national anthems, and is it specifically the anthem of the Republic if they do? In Judo, the Irish Judo Association seems to organise on an island-wide basis, given that there are a handful of affiliated clubs in Northern Ireland. Meanwhile, the Northern Ireland Judo Federation has many more clubs and Northern Ireland competes in the Commonwealth Games. The NIJF is subsidiary to the British Judo Association. Boxing seems even more complex, and also competes in the Commonwealth Games.

Finally, it will be hard for those who are not aware of a border on the island of Ireland to differentiate between the "Irish anthem" and the other names and nouns involved. I think we should disambiguate the specific political jurisdiction of the Republic to keep the article from being potentially confusing to English speaking non-locals and people whose first language isn't English. --75.177.79.101 (talk) 08:04, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree it should refer to the Republic when talking about its anthem rather than just saying Irish. Foreigners might get confused otherwise. But I think on the same basis it should refer to the Ulster Banner rather than the Flag of Northern Ireland, that is too confusing too since officially it has no flag. Also there's no need to mention all the songs for other countries of the UK or go into a long explanation. By the way the common name policy is for the title of articles, not for every reference. The stupid business about referring to Derry everywhere rather than just in its article is because of an admin decision over the battles over it, see WP:IMOS. Dmcq (talk) 16:27, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Can I just point out that England has no "official" flag either. So any argument about Northern Ireland not having a flag is equally valid with regard to the flag of England. The de facto civic flag of Northern Ireland is the flag of Northern Ireland or, as some people possibly incorrectly refer to it, the Ulster Banner. Likewise, the de facto civic flag of England is the flag of England, or St George's Cross.

With regard to Derry versus Londonderry, I am given to believe that plenty of Protestants and unionists from the area call it Derry. It's really a shortening of the full name, in many peoples' eyes. Same with "Carrick" for Carrickfergus. With both names, there are several other towns that have either "Carrick" or "Derry" in them. Londonderry and Carrickfergus are the better known settlements though.

As we seem to have come to the same conclusion at least about being less ambiguous about the Republic, can somebody go ahead and make that change? --75.177.79.101 (talk) 05:47, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Have put in Republic of Ireland. By the way St George's Cross is recognized as the national flag of England, see [5]. Dmcq (talk) 13:33, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Graphics in the Demographics section

The two graphics at the top of this section both cover religion, yet the colour coding is wildly different. Could there not be some changes made to the first one so that it is easy for the reader to grasp information presented in the second? The first would then become of great use as a key to the colour coding of the map graphic. At the moment, the key to the map graphic colour coding is tiny. Boscaswell talk 16:29, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 December 2018

Fix this blatant typo. Instead of (october1993) it should be (October 1693). the treaty of limerick was not signed in the era of bill clinton!

1693, however, Pope Innocent XII recognised James as continuing King of Great Britain and Ireland in place of William, after reconciliation with Louis. In 1695, and contrary to the terms of the Treaty of Limerick (October 1993), a series of penal laws were passed by the Anglican ruling class in Ireland in intense anger at the Pope's recognition of James over William, which was felt to be a betrayal. The intention of the laws was to materially disadvantage the Catholic community and, to a lesser extent, the Presbyterian community. In the context of open institutional discrimination, the 18th century saw secret, militant societies develop in communities in the region and act on sectarian tensions in violent attacks. T Misterguitar919 (talk) 03:03, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

 Done DannyS712 (talk) 03:48, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Changed to 1691 per the article at Treaty of Limerick and some other quick sources found online. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 03:49, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 October 2018

Add the former flag of Northern Ireland still used unofficially today 2A02:C7F:147E:4F00:3076:E0B0:BE10:C797 (talk) 14:34, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Has been discussed before = please check that out -----Snowded ^TALK 14:43, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Like Snowded points out, this was discussed before. The result? Northern Ireland doesn't have a flag of its own (not since 1972) & so shouldn't have one in its box. GoodDay (talk) 14:54, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Although the former flag was removed from the info box, the note (a) associated with it was left in place, and appears at the bottom of the box without a reverse link. Since the information summarized in this note is presented more clearly in the "Culture/Symbols" section, the note should probably be (have been?) deleted. Kelseymh (talk) 20:45, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 January 2019

Ulster Scotts is not a language, it's a glorified accent so it needs to be changed to just Irish (Gaelic) and English. Yehaw69 (talk) 19:06, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, the Ulster Scots article can be found at Ulster Scots dialects and not this article. Recognised as part of the Good Friday Agreement so feel free to bring it up on those articles and to the governments of the UK and Ireland. Thanks. Canterbury Tail talk 19:17, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

I believe the previous response is a complete on and have marked the request as answered and no change will be made to the article. Dmcq (talk) 21:01, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

No legal effect

There's a bit of argument about someone saying the Belfast Agreement has no legal effect on citizenship. The link put in was wrong, I believe they meant [6]. However as far as I an make out they are misunderstanding what 'no legal effect' means i that document. If something meant that no change in the law was needed because of the Belfast Agreementthen they said it had no legal effect. In this case RoI already implemented everything needed and as far as British citizens are concerned if they don't get a passport that's their choice. That is entirely different from saying it can have no effect - if one or other country tried to change the law then the change might be invalidated by the Belfast Agreement. For instance if a law was passed so people no longer had a choice that would be in direct violation. Dmcq (talk) 22:52, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

For reference, I only removed it because it as a sentence fragment that made no contextual sense, and the reference didn't work. Canterbury Tail talk 12:54, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

I though it was clear that the passage quoted immediatly prior has no legal effect. Dcmq is wrong in their interpretation of what "no leagal effect" means. Not least because UK and ROI government don't allow birthright citizenship (that is citizenship for anyone born on the island regardless of the status of their parents). There are multiple references to this passage but perhaps the clearest is on page 128 where it states " ‘recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland [but see Annex 2 to the BIA] to identify themselvesand be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose,’. This text – even in the absence of Annex 2 – can have no legal effect, not even in international law." -- Eckerslike (talk) 18:50, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

What on earth effect would you think it might have on international law? Of course it has 'no legal effect'. And by the way the citizenship laws in Britain are well known to have a number of logical inconsistencies and that has no effect internationally. A country would have to implement its own non--international laws to distinguish people on something other than the passports if for instance Bolivia wanted to distinguish between Irish passports for people from Northern Ireland and people from RoI. Dmcq (talk) 22:45, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

You would have to ask the author of the legal analysis what effect it might have on international law it might have. I just quoted from him. -- Eckerslike (talk) 00:54, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

He said in the document it has no legal effect and I agree with that. You seem to be trying to say that means more than it says, that one could remove the stuff and that would have no legal implications in any possible future. Dmcq (talk) 10:09, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Or to put it another way "can have no legal effect" (p128). You clearly haven't read the paragraph that I initially quoted from (p130) as it makes it blatently clear that the lack of legal effect is due to the subjectivity of the phrase. -- Eckerslike (talk) 20:09, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I have read it and I have come to quite a different conclusion from you. I think we'd need someone versed in legal jargon to decide. Which is a bit much as we have a legal expert here and they clearly can't express themselves in a satisfactory way for normal people. Dmcq (talk) 23:46, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I just had a look for other stuff by him and came across a rather silly thing about Brexit and a better reasoned one about why Ulster Scots should be in any language law rather than just Irish. I think lawyers are very liable to interpret things they way they feel. You can see this in America the way the Supreme Court judges' decisions are easily predictable based on whether they are Republicans or Democrats. I don't know where one would get someone who wasn't involved to spend their valuable time as a lawyer on this. What he says is true enough in law terms I think - but it has too much wiggle room and space for misinterpretation. 00:16, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Could you explain to me the difference between the statements "one could remove the stuff and that would have no legal implications in any possible future" and "cannot be provided for legally, in international or municipal law"? -- Eckerslike (talk) 22:23, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Patriarchalic culture ?

When i stumbled over this senctence: ... Prominent artists and sportspeople from Northern Ireland include Van Morrison, Rory McIlroy, Joey Dunlop, Wayne McCullough and George Best. Some people from Northern Ireland prefer to identify as Irish (e.g., poet Seamus Heaney and actor Liam Neeson) while others prefer to identify as British (e.g. actor Sir Kenneth Branagh). ... i wondered if there are only men living in Northern Ireland. Actually i could not find any woman mentioned at all in the full article. Why is that ?? -- cheers, rosetta — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.214.248.208 (talk) 01:32, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia has a rather scrappy and not well researched article Women in Northern Ireland. Perhaps you could add to that or put some sources on the talk page if you don't feel confident enough for that. Dmcq (talk) 00:03, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Statement contradicted by reference

This quote: The first Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, Seamus Mallon, was criticised by unionist politicians for calling the region the "North of Ireland" while Sinn Féin has been criticised in a Dublin newspaper for referring to the "Six Counties".[80]

is contradicted by the reference, in which a Dublin paper seems to approve that Mallon actually used the term "Northern Ireland" and does not comment negatively on the normal usage. Can someone who follows things more closely than me please correct this. Chris55 (talk) 22:42, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Algae?

Do we really need the paragraph on the number of species of algae found on the coast of Nortern Ireland? To me it looks absolutely silly. I think it should be removed as having no value for better understanding of any aspect of the rest of the article.

Poihths (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:14, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree. This article is about the political entity. Natural history and similar information belongs at the island article (Ireland). I don't know of any species that stops at the border, whereas there some species that are found in Ireland but not Great Britain and vice versa (shamrock and snakes being the classical examples). --Red King (talk) 10:13, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree too that it should be removed. Gareth Griffith-Jones (contribs) (talk) 15:14, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Celebrities in the lead dividing two ways but earlier paragraph saying 3 common ways of primary self-identity exist

Who writes this drivel? Surely it is morally wrong to list celebrities and citing, with aplomb, that they split two ways, having earlier said there are at least three ways most people living in Northern Ireland tend to foremost identify themselves with. If you read the last paragraph slowly it actually seems to promote a simple dichotomy which has to be unhelpful to any of those seeing themselves more in the Northern Irish community than any other.- Adam37 Talk 15:15, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree. This material was just divisive POV (and per WP:LEAD, should never have been there anyway since it did not summarise a major topic in the body), so I have deleted it. I also deleted (from Culture) the wild generalisation that Catholics choose Irish cultural tradition and Protestants choose British (English, Scots, Welsh) traditions. It will come as surprise to no-one that this claim was unsourced. As usual, per WP:BRD, anyone who disagrees is invited to discuss the topic here. --Red King (talk) 10:30, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

You have my support in all of your deletions here today. Gareth Griffith-Jones (contribs) (talk) 15:17, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 March 2020

The flag is missing on top of the page. All other European countries have their flag on top of the page. 143.179.39.209 (talk) 12:42, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. Northern Ireland doesn't have its own flag. See Flag of Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland flags issue. --Red King (talk) 14:20, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Use of population clock

Although this article has not been updated for a few days, it is citing the population clock on the NISRA home page (according to that the population is 1,900,880 at the time of typing). However as the Find out more link on the page says The population is for the displayed date and time and assumes constant population change throughout the year. It is not intended to be an exact count, as it's assumed deaths, births, immigration and emigration. Is there a 2011 census figure we can use instead, if that's thought to be preferable? FDW777 (talk) 19:58, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

I would prefer actual census figures over ones that are, realistically, guesses. Canterbury Tail talk 21:49, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

UK Prime Minister - infobox

Has anyone thought about adding the British Prime Minister to the Infobox below Parliament of the UK? I just find it strange that it’s not there already! The office is the head of the central government of a sovereign state that Northern Ireland is currently part of, so why not add it? What’s everyone views on this? Ciaran.london (talk) 23:07, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

No. I wouldn't add it, for the same reason I wouldn't add the Canadian prime minister to the Alberta infobox. GoodDay (talk) 23:59, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

National symbols

Why is there no flag or anthem like there is for other constituent countries of the UK. I know this is considered a controversial subject but I think it could be possible to have the symbols here be the same as the Northern Irish sports teams. 20th anniversary (talk) 14:11, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Northern Ireland does not have an official flag or anthem. FDW777 (talk) 14:17, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

But Northern Ireland shares its symbols with the UK as a whole, as well as having unofficial symbols, mostly for sports where Northern Ireland competes by its self. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 20th anniversary (talk • contribs) 14:20, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Sports teams may do yes, but none of them represent Northern Ireland officially as a constituent country. The closest Northern Ireland has is the Union Flag, but it doesn't represent Northern Ireland but the United Kingdom. NI simply doesn't have an official flag for itself. See talk page archives. Canterbury Tail talk 14:22, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Can someone point me to the piece of legislation that created St. George's cross as the official flag of England? -- Eckerslike (talk) 21:25, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Good luck trying to add the Union Flag to this page. lmao. --2A00:23C4:3E08:4000:FD0E:5236:34AB:E54B (talk) 18:08, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Demographics

@Mutt Lunker: you have reverted my edit claiming "Not the same thing", that's precisely why the clarification was needed.

The sentence currently reads In 2011, 88.8% of the population were born in Northern Ireland, with 4.5% born in Britain, and 2.9% born in the Republic of Ireland. 4.3% were born elsewhere. Since Britain is generally taken to mean the United Kingdom, it is not correct. The 4.5% clearly refers to people born in Great Britain, since the 88.8% of the population born in Northern Ireland were also born in Britain. FDW777 (talk) 16:26, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) :"elsewhere in Britain/the UK" then, since some may have been born on Portsea, Anglesey, Benbecula, the Isle of Wight, Shetland. I notice that the ref doesn't appear to support this statistic though, possibly the others too. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:46, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

The reference is the one at the end of sentence before, the census one. It's supporting the entire section. The BBC ref is only supporting the triple amount of non-UK/ROI residents. Canterbury Tail talk 17:27, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

And the source that this is being based on says England, Scotland and Wales, which equates to Great Britain. Britain is ambiguous so Great Britain is correct for what the source is telling us. We could also say elsewhere in the United Kingdom if we really wanted. Canterbury Tail talk 16:43, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Eastern Europe

As of now the article reads: "Most are from Eastern Europe and Lithuania and Latvia."

This makes no sense since both Lithuania and Latvia are in Eastern Europe. Demography of Northern Ireland#Place of birth claims most immigrants are from Poland. So can the sentence be changed to: "Most are from Eastern Europe (Poland, Lithuania and Latvia)."

Thanks. 2001:569:7DAC:A800:155B:E749:4D7F:653E (talk) 16:29, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

I've tidied that section up a little. Canterbury Tail talk 16:42, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

For those interested the latest population estimates (xls, 1.2MB) (Tables 1.1 and 1.4) show there are:

• 45,000 Eastern Europeans:
  • 38,000 EU-8:
    • 20,000 Poland
    • 13,000 Lithunia
    • 6,000 the other 6 countries combined
  • 6,000 EU-2
  • 1,000 other EU
• 44,000 from outside EU (half of them from Asia)
• 33,000 from Ireland
• 12,000 from Western European EU countries (EU-14)

207.81.201.171 (talk) 11:51, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Cities sub-section

I took the liberty of moving this to what I felt was a more appropriate section earlier. It still causes lots of white space in the article, due to the width of the table and the photographs in the article. I tried fiddling about with some of the variables to fix the problem, but I couldn't get it to work so perhaps someone with more knowledge of tables might be able to do something with it please? FDW777 (talk) 22:22, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

The issue is that the cities table isn't a table, it's misusing the Infobox template and infoboxes auto align to the right. I've converted it. Now we have an issue with the way the images are presenting. Canterbury Tail talk 22:57, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. I think I've fixed the image issue, depending on whether we considered the problem to be the same or not. There's probably an argument to be made about whether those thumbnails belong in the table anyway. FDW777 (talk) 23:01, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Yeah I think there was two problems. 1) the infobox style and 2) the Clear that you noticed that kept the bottom of the section free. As for the images, I don't think we need them in there, especially since they appear to be cherry picked rather than obvious. I.e. Newry as the 4th image and not Craigavon? Canterbury Tail talk 23:05, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Well I'm not entirely sure about the contents of the table anyway, since we're dealing with towns and cities it seems odd to go with the Craigavon Urban Area rather than the individual towns. FDW777 (talk) 23:14, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Very good point. Though it is normal for country articles to list the largest cities/towns. Maybe another way? Canterbury Tail talk 23:21, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

And I could be wrong on the Infobox setting on the table as well, it may just have been the Clear that was causing the issue. Wales and Scotland use the same template. Canterbury Tail talk 23:25, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't mind the largest being listed, it just seems odd to use the Craigavon Urban Area when we're not using the Derry Urban Area or the Belfast metropolitan area. I think it's simplest just to use the biggest cities and towns (even though that currently results in Armagh being excluded, although it is mentioned as being a city elsewhere) rather than a random use of urban and/or metropolitan areas.

Regarding "clear", that was in the article already and I did try and remove it when I moved the section. Only when previewing it the new "Cities" sub-section was completely blank, and the table appeared right at the top of the "Demographics" section straight after the word "The" and leaving the rest of the sentence underneath the table. I assume that was some glitch that was caused by an infobox being used, and the change of coding subsequently allowed the removal of "clear" without breaking the article. FDW777 (talk) 23:32, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

"Citizenship and identity" section

Several studies and surveys carried out between 1971 and 2006 have indicated that, in general, most Protestants in Northern Ireland see themselves primarily as British, whereas a majority of Roman Catholics regard themselves primarily as Irish followed by a whole lot of references.

Would anyone object if this is simplified to something like In general, most Protestants in Northern Ireland see themselves primarily as British, whereas a majority of Roman Catholics regard themselves primarily as Irish and removal of a lot of redundant references? Has anything changed since 2006? I don't think so. FDW777 (talk) 23:55, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

I see no problem with keeping the references, redundant or not. It's something that could potentially be considered controversial enough that having multiple references would be encouraged least we have someone come through and think it's not something that can be measured and is just conjecture. I'd like to see if we have something in the last 15 years though. Canterbury Tail talk 01:11, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't think it is controversial though, and although I haven't checked all the surveys cited I doubt it's something that's significantly changed. The wish to see Irish reunification is closely linked, and this may tend to fluctuate based on things like the collapse of the Irish economy. But I honestly don't believe a resident of Northern Ireland who considered themself Irish would turn round and say "Uh-oh, the Irish economy has collapsed. I consider myself British now". FDW777 (talk) 21:16, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree with the last point, but I'm actually curious as to how many protestants and British are switching to be Northern Irish or Irish now. My gut tells me it's increased over the last while, especially since the Brexit vote. Canterbury Tail talk 22:19, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Well the section goes on to state A 2008 survey found that 57% of Protestants described themselves as British, while 32% identified as Northern Irish, 6% as Ulster and 4% as Irish. Compared to a similar survey carried out in 1998, this shows a fall in the percentage of Protestants identifying as British and Ulster and a rise in those identifying as Northern Irish. The 2008 survey found that 61% of Catholics described themselves as Irish, with 25% identifying as Northern Irish, 8% as British and 1% as Ulster. These figures were largely unchanged from the 1998 results. People of Northern Ireland details the 2011 census results as finding a majority in each community still identifying as Irish or British respectively. There's also this BBC article from 2018, and the full results are here (page 15), with 82.9% of Protestants identifying as British (it was possible to select more than one identity), and 96.3% of Catholics as Irish. Northern Irish was also popular for Protestants with 81.8%, against a less popular 27.3% for Catholics. So I'm not seeing any evidence that things have changed since 2006, and I believe including wording such as that right at the start risks suggesting that things have changed. In the absence of evidence to the contrary I believe my alternate wording is better, and obviously we could include the 2018 survey as well. FDW777 (talk) 12:25, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

table in Citizenship and identity section

am I the only one for whom the table in Citizenship and identity section makes no sense at all? I understand nothing of it, percentages do not add up to 100% either in rows or in columns and I am not all sure what the numbers stand for. Maybe (and probably) there is some logic behind this table, but in this case it must come with some info on how to read the figures. rgds, --89.64.68.19 (talk) 12:43, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

The figures are from the census where you can select all that apply, which is why they add up to more than 100%. So someone may identify as British or Irish and Nothern Irish in terms of citizenship, or may now be non religous but still idenitify as the religion they were raised with for cultural reasons. Sarahj2107 (talk) 13:32, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Would it be possible for someone to provide the correct citation for that please? It currently is http://www.ninis2.nisra.gov.uk/Download/Census%202011_Winzip/2011/DC2106NI%20(a).ZIP However, as the NISRA site shows, DC2106NI(a) is actually National Identity (Classification 2) by Age by Sex, which is confirmed by downloading the zip file. FDW777 (talk) 15:18, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

I've replaced the reference. Sarahj2107 (talk) 07:45, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, but it's still in need of a further citation for the rows. For example while the 48.41% indentifing as British part of row is covered on page 15, neither than nor page 19 break that down by religion (that 12.9% of Catholics identify as British, 81.6% of Protestants identify as British etc). FDW777 (talk) 07:51, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

The 'Notes' tab should be removed

In my opinion, the 'Notes' tab should be removed if no notes can be added to it as in my opinion it is pointless having an empty tab within the article. Xboxsponge15 (talk) 10:59, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 May 2021

Factual error in paragraph:

Northern Ireland was created in 1921, when Ireland was partitioned by the Government of Ireland Act 1920, creating a devolved government for the six northeastern counties. The majority of Northern Ireland's population were unionists, who wanted to remain within the United Kingdom.[15

Census 1911 and 1926 both show a significant majority of catholics in NI over any other single Religious Profession and no official record of Unionism/Nationalism. The claim that NI was ‘majority unionist’ is opinion only and should be removed. Church of Ireland Profession cannot be automatically assumed as either.

94.10.118.71 (talk) 08:25, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Um those very clearly show that Roman Catholic numbers are outweighed by the Protestant numbers. The Protestant numbers are just split into multiple groups, but combined they far exceed the Roman Catholic numbers. Not that religion is a pure basis for going one way or another on this issue. Canterbury Tail talk 11:46, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:25, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree, the only reference given is to the Ulster Unionist Party, not 'unreliable' but clearly biased toward this statement; I think "The majority of Northern Ireland's population were unionists, who wanted to remain within the United Kingdom." is not fact-based. JeffUK (talk) 08:00, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

References

Citizenship and Identity § Religious Affiliation table makes no sense and is unsupported by reference

Page 19 is the only relevant one in the reference and doesn't have anything that could make sense of the majority none column. Lycurgus (talk) 20:41, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

didn see the preexisting thread above. It looks like because the subject is contentious, although the current content is incoherent, nobody wants to just fix it and deal with any stuff. Lycurgus (talk) 20:44, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Edit requests 8/10/21

1) Subsection 8.5 ("Rugby League") should be moved to become a sub-subsection of Section 8.1 ("Field Sports")

2) Subsection 8.7 ("Professional Wrestling") probably doesn't belong under "Sports" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.241.10.18 (talk) 22:08, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Flag and Coat of Arms

How come there is no flag and coat of arms on the information panel? England, Wales and Scotland all have these so I don’t see why Northern Ireland should be any different. DRYT.Motorsport (talk) 22:22, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

It does not have a flag. FDW777 (talk) 23:28, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Is the Ulster Banner not official? DRYT.Motorsport (talk) 10:55, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

It does not have a flag. FDW777 (talk) 11:09, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Change "The region that is now Northern Ireland was long inhabited by native Gaels who were Irish-speaking and Catholic" To "The region was inhabited by the native Irish who were Irish-speaking and Catholic"

Geals is a wide term for people of different but related cultures, the Geals of Scotland are a mixture of different people, most of which aren't Geals. The natives of Ulster the Irish were and are distinct from the Scottish, but not in any significant way from the other people of Ireland. So the correct label for the native peoples of that region should be applied, saying they're Geals is misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.107.25.30 (talk) 06:11, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Why no demonym field in the infobox?

The infoboxes in the articles for the other three constituent countries have the demonym field, is there a reason this article's infobox does not? UnitedStatesian (talk) 07:49, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Hearing no response, I added them. UnitedStatesian (talk) 03:55, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Because the consensus from previous conversations on these talk pages was to remove it. However the last discussion was about 9 years ago, so the consensus can change. Canterbury Tail talk 14:02, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

"Ulster (occupied)" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Ulster (occupied) and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 April 5#Ulster (occupied) until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Balkovec (talk) 09:35, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 June 2022

86.40.141.96 (talk) 18:59, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

To change the country's population to 1,903,100 from the census 2021

References

Status of Northern Ireland is officially "province" according to ISO but also,"Part" of the UK and "country"

• "Part of the United Kingdom", according to the Good Friday Agreement.
• "Part of the UK" according to the Northern Ireland government website.
• "Province" according to the UK government Toponymic guidelines.
• "Province" according to ISO country codes.

• Found one reference to "country" also.

This needs to be updated on this page according to these current (non-archived)and official sources. Will update citations in the article but will not make major change to definition.Titus Gold (talk) 01:58, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

The intro shouldn't not be changed, without a consensus. GoodDay (talk) 02:08, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Was only a minor change but fair enough. Consensus to remove the term "region" because it doesn't seem to be used officially at all (but obviously keep terms province and country) and replace the citations with  ? Titus Gold (talk) 02:10, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Leave 'province' out of the infobox. GoodDay (talk) 02:12, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Oppose any change to the stable status quo. RWB2020 (talk) 10:10, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

@GoodDay ok will leave out of infobox. Titus Gold (talk) 12:29, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

References

Constituent unit?

Why do we have "constituent unit" in the infobox? We don't have it in the infoboxes at the England, Wales & Scotland pages. GoodDay (talk) 02:43, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Religion

It would be a good idea to add the line 'When Northern Ireland was created, it had a Protestant majority of approximately two-to-one, unlike the Republic of Ireland, where Catholics were in the majority.' from the http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Demography_of_Northern_Ireland article at the very start of the religion section to provide more context for the recent census result. 80.44.13.37 (talk) 09:47, 30 September 2022 (UTC) 80.44.13.37 (talk) 09:47, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

References

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Goldsztajn (talk) 12:34, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

NI most commonly referred to as country

Northern Ireland is most commonly referred to as a country of the United Kingdom, even by the officials in Westminster. Should we change the introduction of Northern Ireland to country that is part of the United Kingdom but alternatively described as a province or region"? I feel like it would be more appropriate as it is the most commonly referred. MicroSupporter (talk) 19:33, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Why does it matter? Northern Ireland is a subdivision of the United Kingdom, just like Wales, Scotland and England. It does not have significantly less privileges. The word country in the British sense here does not mean an independent or sovereign state, but only a certain kind of region. The US calls them states, Germany calls them Land/Länder (the word is the same in German for country/countries. So Bavaria is a Land. Kanada ist ein Land).

In official parlance, it is usually referred to as a province:

https://www.parliament.uk/business/lords/media-centre/house-of-lords-media-notices/2021/june-2021/has-the-protocol-on-ireland-northern-ireland-been-a-contributory-factor-to-the-recent-community-disturbances-in-the-province/ Georgephilippe (talk) 23:01, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request

Can anyone replace the Ulster Banner with the Tudor Crown with the one with the St Edward's Crown (as the latter is the one used in the majority of the other articles)? 177.76.145.165 (talk) 00:35, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit protected}} template. —Sirdog (talk) 01:13, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

RfC

What Ulster Banner should be put in this article?

• A: The one with the Tudor Crown (current).
• B: The one with the St Edward's Crown (most recent and used in more articles).

191.9.63.220 (talk) 02:44, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

• RfC tag removed, need to start a discussion first per WP:RFCBEFORE. ––FormalDude (talk) 03:33, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Northern Ireland hasn't had a flag of its own, since 1972/73. It uses the UK's flag, instead. GoodDay (talk) 03:59, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

@GoodDay: But the Ulster Banner appears in this article. We are discussing about it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 191.9.63.220 (talk) 13:36, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Irish Language Official?

Currently the Infobox states that the Irish language is an official language in Northern Ireland. It is my understanding that it will become official when the Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill receives royal assent and becomes law. At the present moment that hasn't happened and the link to it says it's passed the commons but not yet had royal assent so therefore not yet law. Wouldn't it be better to move Irish back to the "recognised minority languages" until the bill does receive royal assent? C. 22468 Talk to me 13:27, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Demonym - Northern Irish

Why does this pages infobox not contain the demonym Northern Irish. See article People of Northern Ireland which explains this demonym. B1t3j (talk) 20:46, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

I'd recommend searching the archives and reading the discussions we've had about it in the past and the decisions made there. That all being said, it's been a while since those discussions and consensus and consensus can change, so perhaps it's time for a new RFC or discussion on it. Canterbury Tail talk 20:53, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Transport

The Transport section has an uncited comment that Northern Ireland has underdeveloped transport infrastructure, but then lists 5 rail lines, lots of motorways, a few airports, and a few seaports.

Is that really underdeveloped? Or is it consistent with other areas of similar population? 92.41.42.172 (talk) 09:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 August 2023

in the irish language part of it it says in May 2022 there was legislation proposed but its already been passed in december. update Whatoaejfeas (talk) 18:01, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

 Done Next time, please remember to include a reliable source to support your change. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 19:39, 3 August 2023 (UTC)