Talk:Neuilly-sur-Seine

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On 17 March 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Neuilly. The result of the discussion was not moved.

Bourgeois

Bourgeois does not mean "upscale." It is French for "middle-class." C'mon, folks, this is basic French 101. I recommend changing the wording of the second ¶ to something more like, "...a compendium of upscale "bourgeois" neighbourhoods..." with "bourgeois" remaining linked to the Wikipedia page for that word (albeit a page concentrating on the prejudicial marxist use of the term as an epithet). Dick Kimball (talk) 14:44, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Words like "bourgeois" and "upscale" are painfully subjective and shouldn't be used in an encyclopedic description of a geographic place. As well, the grammatically-incorrect "Neuilly is often considered as the richest city in France" is crying out for a reference. I'd be happy to do a re-write, and welcome discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.128.184 (talk) 23:09, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Neuilly (disambiguation)

Currently, Neuilly is a disambiguation page. But Neuilly-sur-Seine is by far the most common meaning for Neuilly. As this article says:

On 2 May 1897, the commune name officially became Neuilly-sur-Seine (meaning "Neuilly upon Seine"), in order to distinguish it from the many communes of France also called Neuilly. Most people, however, continue to refer to Neuilly-sur-Seine as simply "Neuilly"

I propose to move Neuilly to Neuilly (disambiguation) and make Neuilly into a redirect to this page. It turns out that most (all?) of the links to Neuilly in fact mean to refer to Neuilly-sur-Seine. Fuller justification at Talk:Neuilly. Comments? --Macrakis (talk) 01:54, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WW I & II

There is nothing in the article about the World Wars. In the novel, The Lost Girls of Paris (P. 135), one of the characters states that all the inhabitants were killed, but the insecure site http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html does not list the town. Can any-one provide material on what happened in this town during wartime? Kdammers (talk) 16:22, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I just looked a the French Wikipedia article. It has content. Maybe someone more fluent in French could use those sources to add content here. Kdammers (talk) 16:28, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

According to the French Wikipedia page, about 200 Jews were deported and murdered, and about 50 members of the Resistance were either killed in battle, executed, or deported. Terrible events, but there's no evidence of mass murders of the non-Jewish civilian population. Given that the population of Neuilly was about 60,000, that would have been by far the biggest massacre in France, and would be well documented. --Macrakis (talk) 22:22, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 17 March 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 16:59, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Neuilly-sur-Seine → Neuilly
Neuilly → Neuilly (disambiguation)

– Neuilly-sur-Seine is the common name of this city, and by far the most common meaning of "Neuilly". Here is some evidence:

The lead of Neuilly-sur-Seine says that it is "also known simply as Neuilly"
As far as I can tell, every link to Neuilly in fact intends to link to Neuilly-sur-Seine
Neuilly-sur-Seine gets about 100x as many page views as the current dab page (14,999 vs. 155)
The next most popular pages called Neuilly are Neuilly-sur-Marne (197) and Neuilly-Plaisance(196)
The remaining places called Neuilly are small (population < 5000) or very small (population < 1000)
There are 1815 wikilinks to Neuilly-sur-Seine, 317 links to Neuilly-sur-Marne, and 85 to Neuilly-Plaisance
On Google, the search [Neuilly] returns an infobox on Neuilly-sur-Seine and all the organic results are about it
On Bing, the search [Neuilly] returns an infobox on Neuilly-sur-Seine and most of the organic results are about it
On britannica.com, the search [Neuilly] returns Neuilly-sur-Seine in position 1
In fact, Britannica.com doesn't even have articles on Neuilly-sur-Marne and Neuilly-Plaisance
Most other pages with "Neuilly" in their names are referring to Neuilly-sur-Seine: the Treaty of Neuilly-sur-Seine (commonly called the Treaty of Neuilly [1]); the Château de Neuilly; the Pont de Neuilly; the Synagogue de Neuilly; only Fulk of Neuilly refers to Neuilly-sur-Marne

I brought this up for discussion on the Talk pages of Neuilly-sur-Seine and Neuilly two weeks ago and have had no reactions. Macrakis (talk) 17:30, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, but would perhaps consider a primary redirect of Neuilly → Neuilly-sur-Seine, with the dabpage moving to Neuilly (disambiguation). 162 etc. (talk) 22:40, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, Neuilly-sur-Seine is the most popular/significant place with the name by a very large margin. However, it doesn't appear to be what's sought by the small number of readers who end up on the dab page Neuilly: of the 137 views it received last month, less than 10 resulted in a clickthrough for this place [2]. Also, there's no primary topic on the French, or any other, Wikipedia (see Neuilly (Q13387709)). – Uanfala (talk) 13:31, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Numbers are misleading in this context, as this is a suburb of Paris where a lot of people live, so I presume a lot of those views are just local Paris residents looking up a nearby locality, and not an indication of general notability beyond that. That said, I would weakly support having "Neuilly" redirect to this page (with a dab note at top), but keep the article title as is. Walrasiad (talk) 16:04, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The current list clearly points to that place first, yet WikiNav doesn't show readers clicking on it the most. This doesn't quite reinforce the idea that it's more common than all other combined. Likewise, britannica.com search with query Neuilly lists it first under the full name, just like we do. Not sure if a change would actually help readers. --Joy (talk) 10:57, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The mention at the top of the article was only added on 1 Mar [3], before that, Neuilly-sur-Seine only appeared lower down in the table. The Wikinav data is for February. – Uanfala (talk) 14:34, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In fact, the Wikinav data supports the notion that Neuilly-sur-Seine is the usual intent. The two biggest individual sources of views are Emanuel Ungaro and RAID (French police unit). In the first case, the article says "He has a daughter, Cosima Ungaro, born in Neuilly...". Cosima was in fact born in Neuilly-sur-Seine. (NYT, June 26, 1990). In the second, it's in reference to the Neuilly hostage crisis, which according to the article itself was in Neuilly-sur-Seine. As I say above, all the in-links I looked at seemed to intend Neuilly-sur-Seine.

It is highly unlikely that anyone is actually looking for Neuilly, Eure, a tiny village (pop. 140). It is more likely that users are clicking on it because it is the first in the list and its full name is Neuilly, unmodified.

I'm OK with the redirect solution, though. --Macrakis (talk) 17:45, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I still wouldn't move it until we see March statistics, because none of this is actually indicative of the existence of a primary topic as WP:PTOPIC defines it. --Joy (talk) 20:33, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose move ambiguating a town creates problems for everyone seeking any of the towns. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:37, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We have a standard way of dealing with that: {{About|Neuilly-sur-Seine}} → This article is about Neuilly-sur-Seine. For other uses, see Neuilly (disambiguation). --Macrakis (talk) 14:06, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post-RM comment

Per the above discussion, I've looked up WikiNav data for March. There were 40 outgoing clicks from the Neuilly page, and all 40 went to Neuilly-sur-Seine. I'm therefore proceeding with the primary redirect. 162 etc. (talk) 21:29, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wiki.x.io&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2021-11&end=2023-11&pages=Neuilly-sur-Seine%7CNeuilly%7CNeuilly_(disambiguation) at logarithmic scale doesn't indicate that the primary redirect is warranted, as the traffic to the hatnote does not correlate well to the traffic to the assumed primary topic, and consistently hovers around a significant minority of the traffic to the redirect, so I'll revert that change. --Joy (talk) 18:51, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See related RM at Talk:Neuilly. 162 etc. (talk) 21:53, 18 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]