Talk:Negroni

People

Shouldn't the list of famous Negronis be on a different page? It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the drink. AdjectiveAnimal (talk) 14:55, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

History?

I rather doubt that a Negroni with orange juice was invented only two years ago. Campari and orange is so known and popular that people have doubtless been combining the two drinks for generations. --Atemperman (talk) 22:40, 4 August 2009 (UTC

RfC: Pascal Olivier and Negroni Cocktail

Is there any WP:V source that links Pascal Olivier Count de Negroni to the Negroni cocktail? All online sources with Pascal Negroni are very recent (2008-09), are typically blogs and forum postings, and I believe may stem from spamming by an editor claiming that his ancestor originated the drink. The refs given here are only a couple months old. While the origins of the drink are definitely cloudy, a quick search shows mention of the Camillo Negroni story at least as far back as 1999 on the internet. http://groups.google.com/group/it.hobby.cucina/browse_thread/thread/44dbfdcdf2a23688/91b067cb7b3de999?hl=en&q=%22camillo+negroni%22#91b067cb7b3de999 I'm just concerned that through ubiquitous spamming of the internet, people are rewriting history.

Is there any reference to Pascal and the cocktail drink even older than 3 years? - Chromatikoma (talk) 20:12, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Noel Negroni is a direct descendant of the inventor of the Negroni drink, period. If you are not a “Negroni” you have no dog in this discussion and "you are the spammer"!

Let’s see if we have this right. We have a grandson of a poet,Count Camillo, who is not a Negroni so no title of Count for grandpa “Walter Savage Landor”. We don’t know who his father is or his mother born in 1868 no town, city or country, in 1934 he died somewhere out there and again no town, city or country. He goes and spends a good deal of his time as a drugstore cowboy and a gambler to boot………..LOL! This story is way too out there don’t you think?? Wow, “whoever came up with this story has had way too many Negron’s way too early in the morning”.

I would have to say that at the moment he has “no braches on his Negroni tree to hang on too let alone our tree”.

David, I hope you have a sense of humor about this “story” as I most certainly do. Usually when a story is too good to be true, what can I say except…….LOL.

On a more serious note it was only as of two weeks ago that we where able to get our story of the Negroni drink on Wikipedia and make it stick. We had to go directly to the Wikipedia people as every time that I posted our family history regarding the drink Negroni somebody would keep bringing it down on us. “I wonder why”?? It was only after my brother presented our case, that we where able to convince the Wikipedia people to allow us to post our story regarding the drink Negroni. We are also “Officers and Gentleman” and we asked them not to delete the version of the story that that you are quoting above. I hope both stories are true and that as some point in time maybe “our” General Pascal Olivier Count de Negroni and Camillo Negroni got together on some hot summer night and raised a glass, “to life and greatness of the Negroni family world wide

http://chanticleersociety.org/forums/t/820.aspx

http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Pascal_Olivier_Count_de_Negroni

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~prwgw/negroni_01.htm

Noel Negroni —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.162.141.54 (talk) 15:47, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi Noel, please take this to heart, this isn't personal. Please look over these and contribute to the article in a constructive manner with reliable sources. WP:COI WP:NOR - Chromatikoma (talk) 20:54, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Your brother's web page, forum postings, and other wikipages aren't verifiable references. - Chromatikoma (talk) 18:34, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

None of the references currently on the page for the claim re Pascal Olivier etc. satisfy WP:RS. If it isn't possible to produce better references for this claim, it should be removed. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:24, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Protected

I have protected this page from the constent removal of content. In all fairness I believe User:Chromatikoma, who is the person removing the content is well intentioned, but said situation must be discussed here in order to aviod what may become an edit war.

The situation is in regard as to who invented the famous drink. No one really knows since there isn't an official document to such a thing. We rely on what is posted on websites and there are many that state that Pascal Olivier Count de Negroni was the inventor and others that Count Camillo Negroni was the one. There are sources which name Pascal Olivier Count de Negroni as witnessed by a quick google search (disregard Wikipedia articles) and it is only fair that both men be mentioned as the reputed inventor. By doing so and by providing the verifiable reliable sources (too many to post in the external link section), the article is within the neutral stance of the situation as it should be.

In Wikipedia we can't take sides as to who invented who invented something, wheather it this person or that person, unless there is an official document to such regard. Removing content from an article because we feel that one person did this and the other did not, can be seen as vandalism, unless as I stated there is an official historical document or documents which state so and unless that happens we have to rely on the sources, some which mention Pascal Olivier Count de Negroni and others Count Camillo Negroni as the only two possible inventors. I'm requesting the opinion of the parties involved and others who are uninvolved to give their opinions in order to reach a justifable consensus. Tony the Marine (talk) 21:25, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

I would be more than willing to let the claim that Pascal invented the drink stand if there was a single WP:V reference listed. I have requested help from you, Noel, Hector, (both of which I believe have a clear conflict of interest in this page since they are Pascal's descendents) and I have posted RfC's for a single reliable source for this. I am acting fully within the rules of wikipedia, since the on the edit box of every article it says "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable." All of the references that you, Noel, and Hector, have provided are self-published sources, forums, blogs, other wikipedia pages and comments sections of unverifiable websites, mostly comprised of Noel Negroni's comments scattered over the internet. This is NOT a reliable, verifiable source. My edits have all been made within good-faith. All I am requesting is that reliable and verifiable references be provided. I believe you have overstepped your boundaries by protecting this page, when all I am requesting is a verifiable source, which MUST be provided for every claim on wikipedia. I am requesting unprotection for this page as it shouldn't have been protected in the first place. I will gladly leave any claim that is backed by WP:V references - Chromatikoma (talk) 21:39, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

I also believe this quote from User:Jimbo is relevant here -- From Jimbo Wales, paraphrased from this post from September 2003 on the WikiEN-l mailing list:

• If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia regardless of whether it is true or not and regardless of whether you can prove it or not, except perhaps in some ancillary article.

- Chromatikoma (talk) 22:35, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

• Comment As I have stated I consider you a good faithed editor and I have no particular interest in this article except that I believe that both versions deserve to be included, that is my opinion and that it why have requested impute from noninvolved parties. A temp. protection of this page was necessary to avoid what is obvious would escalate into an edit war. We will let the consensus of the community decide what course to take. Tony the Marine (talk) 01:10, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

As I have stated many many times, I'm just looking for a Verifiable source for the claim. There's no point in protecting the page since it's not a war edit or vandalism, I'm simply removing poorly sourced material. - Chromatikoma (talk) 04:00, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

• Article is no longer protected as promised. Tony the Marine (talk) 20:47, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

The new sources I could find ([1] [2]) mention Camillo Negroni, but also say that the history is unknown. The Campari company definitely had some part in establishing the name, and I think we should mention that. I cannot find and reliable sources suggesting Pascal Olivier. --Apoc2400 (talk) 18:38, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure that Campari helped to name Negroni, I haven't seen much about that. If you feel there are some good sources for it, go ahead and add it. However, there appears to be a drink called the Camparinete which possibly preceded the Negroni, and that has an obviously close name to Campari. I need to do some more research for this, and certainly some new eyes on this article are most welcomed. Cheers, - Chromatikoma (talk) 18:59, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

The real name of Count Negroni is "Arnold Henry Savage Landor" and he spent 2 years in the USA starting in 1889. He was also an anthropologist and explorer. He was born in 1865 and died in Florence Italy in 1924. He was never a Negroni or Count. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.162.141.49 (talk) 20:59, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Origins of the Negroni

I do not have the proper knowledge to deal with this issue, however, User:DragonflySixtyseven and User:Chromatikoma, whom seem to be interested in the article, if you provide me with your proper email addresses, I will forward them to the Negroni family which includes Francois Marquis de Negroni in Europe. They seem interested in discussing the issues involved with the parties who continue to remove the information added. I will have no say in this and will leave up to both of you. Tony the Marine (talk) 01:00, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm not at all comfortable with that, Tony. My only involvement was to help another user who was having difficulty with some sources, and to improve a reference that was already in there. I'm also troubled by your attempt to use a Wikipedia URL as a reference within the article. DS (talk) 01:30, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

You know DS, to tell you the truth I can't understand how nor why the Wikipedia URL came up. I was trying to post as a reference an article which came up here: The Negroni – La Dolce Vita in a Glass! | Drinkology www.drinkology.com/gin/article/negroni-–-la-dolce-vita... my apologies. I have no personal interest in the article and it's drink since I am not a drinking man myself. The thing is that the Negroni family, both local and in Europe, want to clear things up in regard to what they claim is the origin of the drink. They got in touch with me and I rather have them get in touch with those interested in the article, that's all. The article should be balanced and what the family wants is for both stories be told and nothing more. I can understand if you or anyone else is uncomfortable with making contact with the Negroni family. As I stated before, if any of the parties interested and involved with this article want to learn the history and the findings of the Negroni family, that can be arranged. Not everything in the internet is true, discoveries are being made everyday and what is true today may not be true tomorrow. Tony the Marine (talk) 18:35, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

We use what we can cite to published sources. If the Negroni family has additional information, they're welcome to make it available to the world as a whole, but Wikipedia is not the place where it should first be published. When Albert Lisacek told Warren Perley that the official version of the shooting of Richard Blass was actually a police coverup (and Lisacek knew because he was one of the police officers present at Blass's death), Perley did not modify the Wikipedia article about Blass; rather, he published the information, it came to greater prominence after Lisacek's death, and I heard about this on the news, looked it up in the newspaper to confirm it, and modified Blass's article myself. DS (talk) 13:40, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

I understand and agree DS. As a matter I fact I forwarded the following message:

The findings are newsworthy yet there are no newspapers, magazines and academic publishings which publicly state the fact that there is no record on behalf of the existence of Camillo Negroni. I need undisputable verifiable documentation in order to sustain any change. I recommend that Francois Marquis de Negroni make public the fact that Camillo Negroni was a legend and that he did not exist. That way the history of the drink can be straightened out once and for all.

Tony the Marine (talk) 18:42, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

As a longtime bartender and the creator of a specific Negroni menu, I am saddened to hear that there never was a Camillo Negroni. I have quoted this legend thousands of time, both in interviews and in conversations. While I do not doubt the Negroni family's statements, I must also (as a longtime WP editor) make clear that Wikipedia is not the place to clear the air or to dispel myths. I recommend a well placed interview in a decent newspaper or trade publication; assuming that the statements are true the rest will follow in due time. Cheers,  Mr.choppers | ✎  03:57, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

• The Marquis de Negroni e-mailed the following signed document that I would like to share.

A l'attention de Monsieur Antonio Santiago, Editeur de Wikipedia.
Avec mes meilleurs compliments.
François de Negroni.

Torre San Colombano, Corsica
20th of May 2014

Certificate

To Whom It May Concern

This is to certify that I am the hereditary chief of the Negroni Family in Corsica, a family that traces its ancestry to the 11th century. I am, by inheritance, the owner of the Family title which is Marquis de Negroni.

Furthermore, I certify that in the genealogy of the Negroni family there going back to the 11th century there is no one by the name of Camillo Negroni. This Camillo may be a legend or the invention of someone that has a private agenda to promote this legend. It is impossible to prove that someone did not exist but those who claim the existence of Camillo Negroni should provide at least a birth certificate and not just a book by a bartender.

Finally, I certify that the true inventor of the Negroni Cocktail is my ancestor General Pascal Olivier de Negroni, Count de Negroni. The newspaper article, “Corse Matin, dated the 2nd of February 1980 Sunday Edition mentions this invention. Pascal Olivier invented the drink in Saint Louis de Senegal (a French Colony at the time) as a present to his bride and a digestive aid for himself where he was married and lived from 1855 to 1865. He married in 6 May 1857 in Saint Louise de Senegal to Blanche Elisa Gerard Fontallard (Paris 6 March 1834-Paris 23 April 1879. She was the daughter of Henry Alexandre Gerard Fontallard, a famous painter, and Adelaide Elisabeth Hellant. Later the Negroni drink was adopted by the “Cercle Militaire” (Officers Club), in Paris.

Following is a short biography of General Pascal Olivier, Count de Negroni:

Pascal Olivier de Negroni de Cardi, Comte de Negroni (Born: Castle of San Colombano, Rogliano, Corsica, 4 April 1829-Died: Alencon, Orne, France, 22 October 1913). Pascal married twice. His first marriage was 6 May 1857 in St. Louis de Senegal to Blanche Elisa Gerard Fontallard (Paris 6 March 1834-Paris 23 April 1879). She was the daughter of Henry Alexandre Gerard Fontallard, a famous painter, and Adelaide Elisabeth Hellant. His second marriage was 1 February 1881 in Bayeaux, Calvados, to Marie Emma Duval (Evreux, Eure, 3 August 1841-Senlis, Oise, 27 September 1883). She was the daughter Jules Edouard Duval and Julie Ernestine Peclet. Pascal joined the French Army at 18 years of age and retired as a Brigadier General after a long illustrious career spanning 44 years. He is best remembered in the French Army annals for leading the legendary charge of cuirassiers in the Battle of Reichshoffen during the Franco Prussian War of 1870. His Regiment was totally destroyed but his charge prevented a greater French defeat. As a reward for his valiant actions and exemplary conduct he was personally decorated on 20 August 1870 by the French Emperor, Louis Napoleon, with the Officer's Cross of the Imperial Legion of Honor. On 3 September 1870 he was captured by the Prussians during the Battle of Sedan and spent time as a prisoner of war until his liberation 28 March 1871. On 27 December 1884 he was promoted to Brigadier General and on 4 May 1889 he was named Commander of the Legion of Honor. In 1891 he retired to his Chateau de Rochefeuille, near Mayenne, Mayenne. Pascal Olivier was the inventor of the famous “Negroni Cocktail” (equal parts of Campari, Gin, and Sweet Vermouth, served in a short glass over ice and garnished with an orange slice).

Francois Hubert Marquis de Negroni
Torre San Colombano
Corsica

Tony the Marine (talk) 21:34, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Nice, now we just need someone with access to back issues of the Corse Matin to verify.  Mr.choppers | ✎  03:12, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

_____________

How can you invent a drink with Campari for your bride whom you married in 1857 in Senegal, when Campari was created in Novara, Italy, in 1860? Things do not add up. Also, why would an article from a Corsican newspaper purporting the local invention of a drink that has not ingredients coming from the region but mainly Italian ingredients (both Campari and verouth come from Piedmont) and has for decades been drunk mainly in Italy, be the definitive source for the invention, and not (as it seems) be just some late insular appropriation trial for a drink that seems to bear very little connection to Corsica?

Why then would your family just because called Negroni be the only right Negroni family that could be connected to the drink, when Negroni is a common family name? Apart from certifying that you family is called Negroni and has an aristocratic title, there is no evidence provided in your "certificate" that your ancestor was the creator. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.242.6 (talk) 14:30, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

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Memo for SQGibbon and Denisarona Subject: Negroni Cocktail

First of all I want to apologize for my fellow wikipedians for providing edits to the Negroni Cocktail Page that you object to. It was not my intent to provide "disruptive editing" nor to trample on the Wikipedia norms. I fully understand that the reason why I received warnings, is because I repeatedly added material, despite the objections of others. I know that Wikipedia is a collaborative enterprise, meaning that when we have disputes, we should not simply edit back and forth. I am reaching out to you to see if we can resolve this dispute. I know that Wikipedia does not know the credentials of authors, and in fact does not pay much attention to them. This is because Wikipedia relies on citations to reliable, third party sources like scientific journals, newspapers or blogs with editorial structures, books, and so on. The reason the material is being removed is because you are adding it without reference to secondary source material. With that in mind, I would like to plead my case before my fellow wikipedians.

I have great reservations regarding the person known as Count Camillo Negroni for several reasons:

1. In our family genealogical records going back to the 11th century, there no one by the name of Count Camillo (Sources: Authier, Michel et Alain Galbrun, Etat de la Noblesse Francaise Subsistance, 1940-1993, pp. 153-160; Cere, Luigi Arturo, Storia dell'illustra famiglia genovese dei Negroni, Genes, 1927; Negroni, Francois Marquis de, de Negroni de San Colombano Family Archives: Negroni, Roch Pascal Marie Cyr Marquis de, Histoire de l'Ancienne Seigneurie de San Colombano ou Capo Corso et de Capraia, Imp. Lavalloise, Laval (Mayenne), 1896, 311 pages: Pazzis, Henry de Seguins Pazzis d'Aubignam Marquis de, Genealogie de la Famille Negroni et ses Alliances, 1980, 315 page manuscript prepared as one of the requirements to become a Knight of Malta; Negroni, Hector Andres, 1938 The Negroni family : genealogical, demographic, and nobiliary study from its 11th century origins to its 20th century branches in Italy, France, and Puerto Rico Madison, AL : H.A. Negroni, [1998], 149 pages : ill., maps ; 28 cm, Library of Congress Control Number: 98119631

2. The paper back book by Luca Picchi, Sulle tracce del conte. La vera storia del cocktail «Negroni» is nothing more than a marketing pamphlet to promote visits to Mr. Picchi's bar in Florence.

3. Despite numerous requests, Mr. Picchi has nor provided our family with birth, death or genealogical information on "Count Camillo Negroni." As a result, we can only conclude that "Count Camillo is a result of Mr Picchi's fertile imagination.

On the other hand, to support our thesis, we can provide ample genealogical information on General Pascal Olivier Comte de Negroni. He was real person with real accomplishments. Tell me what you need and I will provide the information for your examination and evaluation. Additionally, there was a newspaper reference to Pascal's invention of the Negroni cocktail (Source: “Corse Matin Sunday Edition," 2 February 1980).

As an amicable resolution to this issue I recommend that we place both theories being equal in value and let the readers make up their mind.

I can also provide you with my CV if you desire.

Respectfully,

Colonel (USAF-Retired) Hector Andres Negroni Website: http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~prwgw/negroni_01.htm#Negroni Hanegroni (talk) 09:09, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

---

Here is the what the Corse Matin, 2 February 1980 article says about the Negroni Cocktail and its inventor:

Un cocktail corse ? Le Negroni, un des grands cocktails classiques, a-t-il été crée par un Capcorsin ? Il semble que oui. Ce serait le General Pascal de Negroni originaire de Rogliano, qui aurait eu l’idée de ce divin mélange (1/3 Gin, 1/3 Vermouth, 1/3 Campari). Cela se passait à Paris au cercle militaire des officiers de Saint-Augustin, à la veille de la Grande guerre. A votre santé avant la mitraille ! PM (Corse Matin, en date du 2 Février 1980 Sunday Edition)

This is the translation of the article:

A Corsican Cocktail? Was the Negroni, a classic cocktail, created by a Capcorsin? It seems so. This would be the General Pascal Negroni native Rogliano, who had the idea of this divine mixture (1/3 Gin 1/3 Vermouth, 1/3 Campari). This happened in Paris at the military officers' club of St. Augustine, on the eve of the Great War. Your health before the grape shot!

Note: St. Agustine refers to the Officers Club in Paris, the "Great War War" refers to World War One and "grape shot" is a play on words of a munition fired from cannons.

Hanegroni (talk) 13:20, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Photos

I don't see the point of replacing the photo of a negroni up with a second one of a negroni on the rocks with twist. Why would we need two photos of the same thing? Kendall-K1 (talk) 21:25, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Bitter

@Tiberias 40: Please stop replacing "Campari" with "bitter". All of the sources say "Campari". If you have a source that says "bitter" you could add that information to what we already have, but you can't remove "Campari". See WP:UNDUE. Kendall-K1 (talk) 01:06, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Count Negroni

I believe it is referred to Count Camilio Negroni. The link in this article leads to another Negroni - a french general who died in 1913. Can this be fixed please? 46.19.86.160 (talk) 11:31, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

False Information

Bro’s you believe pascal negroni asked his bartender to add gin in his americano in 1919? You put the information about pascal that he died in 1913, Does this makes any sense? He came out of grave to drink his americano?🤣🤣🤣 217.165.9.243 (talk) 00:40, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Good callout. I made it more generic since the sources all disagree about which guy named Negroni supposedly invented it. Steven Walling • talk 18:38, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Stanley Tucci?

Anonymous editor added a version linking the famous actor. He just calls it a Negroni, so variation isn't justified (even if instagram were a reliable source). Exaisle (talk) 01:06, 7 April 2023 (UTC)