Talk:Needtobreathe

Neutrality

Editing a band's page using the band's name and writing about "amazing records" and how they "wow audiences with their dynamic stage show" is hardly neutral.

Go Tell It on the Mountain

NEEDTOBREATHE recorded a cover of Go Tell It On the Mountain sometime. I can't remember any other detail about it. Free (talk) ^(HRWiki) 19:30, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Mention religious view?

People always get into debates about whether or not to apply the "christian" label about bands with christian themed lyrics, but this one is kind of obvious. While I don't think it neccessary to call them a "christian" band, having a section mentioning their religious views and how their christian faith inspires their lyrics is appropriate. I'd do it myself, but I don't want to take the time to type up something that sounds nice and is properly soureced, at least not for Wikipedia, anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.249.184.87 (talk) 08:03, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

They keep charting on American Christian charts, so they're a Christian Music band. You have to prove with more solids references then what already exists to prove that they're NOT a Christian. I can't imagine how you could do that. Prove your case here first - that's how we do controversial things here on Wikipedia. I'm listening for your viewpoint. Royalbroil 00:03, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I hear you about the charting, but according to the industry, "Christian Music" is considered a musical genre, not a description of a band's personal faith or how even their songs/albums chart. This band is on a mainstream label, Atlantic Records, which does not sign CCM genre artists. I work with labels and PR groups and am pretty familiar with how Christian labels work, and they have a completely different radio/marketing culture. This band is not part of that and while they have been recognized by the Contemporary Christian Music subculture/genre for certain singles, that is not a qualifier for being immediately swallowed by the genre recognizing it--they are certainly not the first mainstream band to get awards or be embraced by that industry/audience. Another point: I am not a fan of the genre, but I occasionally will tune into a CCR station, and they often play mainstream singles that are popular with their audience (such as hits by rock groups like Lifehouse, Switchfoot, U2, The Fray, Daughtry, Anberlin, Mutemath, as well as various country-pop stars, etc). To my knowledge, said groups have band members who are Christians, but all are on mainstream labels and their personal faith does not mean that they are part of the CCM genre. It may seem odd that certain singles by this particular band have been released to the Christian AC/CHR formats when the band obviously doesn't want to be pigeonholed by the genre, but all mainstream labels well understand how lucrative marketing to that audience is (just look at Billboard and at any time you'll see plenty of strictly CCM groups on the Hot 200 chart) and if they have a deal with Christian distribution, of course they're going to support robust marketing. Chart positions will of course correlate to what radio formats are scanning a single the most.

I think comparable Wikipedia articles are actually "proof" enough to support an edit to this article. One good example is the Switchfoot article, because it could actually be far better argued that this band be labeled as a so-called "Christian rock band" than Needtobreathe. Switchfoot actually started out on a Christian label and moved within that particular rock scene, and thus would far more warrant the label on Wikipedia, yet they are widely considered a mainstream rock band. (Obviously it's been disputed to the point that there is a section discussing their history and this genre label within the article.) Needtobreathe signed with Atlantic from the beginning and reportedly never considered a deal with a Christian label. Another good example is the indie band Mutemath, who have actually been included on CCM compilations that gained them a large following in those circles, and even though particularly some of their earlier material have lyrics that are overtly "Christian," they have never been considered a "Christian rock" band. That said, both of those examples' Wikipedia articles seem to me enough of a standard. The article on the Contemporary Christian Music genre also states some clear qualifiers that are quite relevant to this question. There are tons of interviews and articles out there than confirm what I'm saying, but here's a recent interview that seems to give a good picture of where the band is coming from. (I just can't see how they differ from any other mainstream rock band on a major label.) http://theywillrockyou.com/2010/04/joe-stillwell-needtobreathe

And here is a video interview where another member comments directly on this issue in a very clear way: http://www.musicfashionmagazine.com/watch.php?id=needtobreathepart2 I think these points and citations are more than sufficient "proof" to warrant an edit to this article. Thanks for listening. Efrafra (talk) 22:59, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Things have changed a lot in the past year, and reading what was done at Switchfoot since then is particularly well written. I was listening to a "Christian" show this past week and one of these bands (or maybe it was Flyleaf or Skillet (band)) was talking about this topic - I don't remember which radio program or artist. Anyhow if you want to create a section like Switchfoot's then it's fine with me. I can see how Needtobreathe fits on both sides of the fence. I think it's best to address the topic instead of sweeping it under the rug. You have cited several good examples, Efrafra. Royalbroil 03:39, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

NEEDTOBREATHE have never charted on Christian Rock Format Radio stations, They have charted on CHR and Christian AC Radio stations, I've confirmed this with both their Label (Atlantic Records) and their Manager. I've added both of those in radio formats in to clarify, as well as a section regarding their place in the Christian Music scene, with direct quotes from the band expressing their own viewpoints. Efrafra has given the most cohesive discussion regarding this I have seen in a long time. Jayne —Preceding undated comment added 04:19, 3 April 2011 (UTC).

I just added the term "Christian rock" not to say that they define themselves as a Christian band, but rather as a rock band who have charted on the Christian charts. And there is no denying that their music has a strong Christian influence regardless of what their intentions were, what music label they signed up under, what some article defines as being a Christian band, etc. Eventually groups get categorized by the media, not the group or label or a checklist. Also, I'm not sure how the Needtobreathe Christian music thing where they say that they are not comfortable being labeled as such fits in well with this article - I think it just needs some tidying up. 68.146.214.85 (talk) 20:06, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree on it being a media term is the most important part. There should be some type of mention that they've been labeled as a Christian band. I dislike how the section on Christian music was removed in this edit. I didn't like how it was implemented but liked the concept of explaining that they're a mainstream band with Christian success. It's fine to say that the band has distanced itself from this label. This topic has been implemented very thoughtfully at Switchfoot#Switchfoot and Christian music (current diff). Royalbroil 02:32, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree that this edit is an important statement re: positioning. I know it's important to the band. Can you suggest how it could be implemented better? I took the Switchfoot#Switchfoot and Christian music example and found statements by band members to back up what was written. Would a fuller version suffice? - just looking for guidance. Jaynehendry (talk) 02:52, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

First, you used a blog as a reference which is not reliable enough to be useable. I think it should be fuller than what you did earlier. For now it's best to let it chill for at least a few days to give others time comment about what you and I have suggested. Hopefully a compromise can be reached which is agreeable to all. I don't have a problem labeling them a Christian CHR or Christian Pop band instead of Christian rock (all of these ways make sense to me) since it would be easy to prove all of them from reliable sources. A similar discussion recently happened about Skillet at Talk:List_of_Christian_metal_bands#Skillet_article_genres. Royalbroil 11:43, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I was about to say that the Needtobreathe section on Christian music that Jaynehendry has added could be added back in if, I believe, if it's tidied up a bit. Right now though it just seems like a paltry argument to not classify them as a Christian band whatsoever. But perhaps it could be added back in just to give it a chance to be edited? (Not sure :s.) I've yet to see Switchfoot#Switchfoot and Christian music - perhaps I should do that now ;). 68.146.214.85 (talk) 13:01, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

The band is not a Christian band, and what may be right for Switchfoot's wiki page, is not right for NEEDTOBREATHE. The band has this to say about the label as a Christian Rock band, "They can say whatever they want about the music and they can point out whatever spiritual references they think they've found. But I can tell you first hand, we have never intended to make a Christian record and we have never set out to be a Christian band." Why then is there such a urge to continue to label them as Christian Rock? Yes, Christian radio stations may play them but I've also heard Kings of Leon "Someone like you" on the same station, and we would all agree that they are not Christian rock wouldn't we? The band does not wish to be labeled as a Christian Rock band and doing so on this page interferes with their vision and purpose for the band

Check out this article for reference:

The Huffington Post: NEEDTOBREATHE looks for separation with new album http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20110929/us-music-needtobreathe/ “...And they won a Dove Award last year for their breakthrough album, but they're not a Christian band either.”Dwmeyer17 (talk) 00:58, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Whether the band considers themselves a Christian band or not is immaterial. They were signed to a Christian label and won awards in the "genre" of Christian music. If they want to witch directions now, that's fine, but they can't erase their past. Not sure what that has to do with Switchfoot, whose article I've worked on. They were never signed to a Christian label. They were signed to re:Think, a label that was designed to be a mainstream label that could also be marketed to Christians, much like Tooth & Nail and its various imprints. The fact that the label was folded into another EMI Christian label didn't change their opinion of their position in the industry. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:18, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Consensus has that one of their genres to be placed in their infobox is Christian rock. Remember, per the Wikipedia:Consensus policy, consensus is not equal to "unanimity". It doesn't have to be first but it needs to remain. Hopefully advanced steps don't be taken to ensure that it happens.

Dwmeyer, let's work on the wording in the main body of the article. As far as I'm concerned, it's fine to have a whole section or paragraph to accommodate your source that says that they don't want to be labeled as Christian rock. Please start a section, using citations from reliable sources to write it. The lead paragraph already talks about how they've charted mainstream vs Christian. Royalbroil 18:08, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

@RoyalBroil, does this mean we can do that and take out the genre listed on the side? Dwmeyer17 (talk) 04:43, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

The infobox is the box on the right on the top that gives a quick summary of the artist. Christian rock should not be removed from that box or from the lead paragraph. I'm suggesting that you write a new section in the article describing how they don't consider themselves to be Christian rock artists despite having charted hits in the genre. You need to rewrite in your own words (using reliable sources) and using cited quotes from the band which were published in these reliable sources. The hard part for you will most likely be to remember that this needs to be written in encyclopedia wording and tone- not in marketing language. Be careful not to use what we call WP:PEACOCK words. Royalbroil 05:10, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

History Channel

The Reckoning song "Oohs and Ahhs" is the featured music on the History channel's "Taking fall to new heights" new ad spot, worth a mention? Have nothing to link to, but it's them and that song on the spot. WikiWikiPleaseDon'tPostMyIP!19:54, 28 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.150.71.66 (talk)

Needtobreathe New album update

I updated the needtobreathe page. They have had a lot of news come out about their upcoming album and documentary, so I decided to add it. here's the blog post on their website.... http://needtobreathe.net/blog/new-tour-album-update/

also here is the update on their documentary... http://needtobreathe.net/blog/prove-the-poets-wrong-trailer/

This info came directly from their website. Why did you take it down?

PrestonDrake (talk) 03:04, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Neither self-published sources nor blogs make good sources. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:51, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

This isn't my own self published source, it came directly off of Needtobreathe's official website. Seems like a good source to me. Needtobreathe posted this on THEIR official website. That's as good a source as you are going to find. This is legitimate information and fans of the band deserve to have this on their wiki page to be seen. Put up my edit please.

PrestonDrake (talk) 05:26, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

You might want to assume I know that and you might also want to read what I linked above at "good sources" and focus on the Primary Sources section. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:24, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Alright. These are the criteria for a good source based on the link you gave me: "the piece of work itself (the article, book); the creator of the work (the writer, journalist), and the publisher of the work (for example)"

The official website of the band fits all 3 of those. Are you seriously going to deny that the official website of the band is not a reliable source for news on the band? Please work with me here.

PrestonDrake (talk) 14:42, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Those are not the definition of a good source, simply a source. Under "Questionable and self-published sources" you see "Self-published and questionable sources as sources on themselves". Then below that you see a section on "Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources" which links to a different article discussing that. In short, until a secondary source discusses an album release, it's just self-promotion: an attempt to keep fans interested. If a secondary source repeats a "press release" or tweet, then it's not fact-checking. If a reliable source discusses the upcoming album or publishes a review, then we should start talking about the album, not before. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:55, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Christian rock genre not supported?

An series of edits a short while ago removed Christian rock from the infobox an lede stating that it's unreferenced. To that end, none of the genres listed in the infobox are referenced. So I'll respond by saying that they were signed to two Christian labels (Sparrow and Myrrh). "In 2009, Needtobreathe's song "Washed by the Water" was nominated and won the Dove Award for "Rock/Contemporary Song of the Year" at the 40th annual [Gospel Music Association] Dove Awards" which implies that the Christian music industry thinks that they're a Christian Rock band. Their music appears on Christian Billboard charts. And http://www.allmusic.com/artist/needtobreathe-mn0000713448/biography states that "The Heat was released in August 2007, and helped establish the band as one of Christian rock's most successful newcomers."

So, no, it's not referenced, but removing that genre and not the other unreferenced genres is incorrect. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:01, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

I see http://www.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/stories/072006aam.html is present to support the location of formation, not the genre. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:42, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll point out this discussion to the OTRS poster.  Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 19:49, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:04, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

I have just had to remove the unsourced genre again. Please read the edit summaries by me and ronhjones carefully. We referenced OTRS and ticket numbers Ticket:2014010510007956 and Ticket:2014022610018215. What that means is that someone connected with the subject (in this case their management) has emailed the Wikimedia Foundation to point out an inaccuracy that is causing them distress. It is not just that it's disputed by them (and frankly for something like this they really ought to know), but it's also important to them that this is not included. If there are unambiguous sources that call them that, then discuss it in the body with attribution: "X of the Y paper classifies them as Christian rock". The number of Christian rock bands who would dispute the label is exceptionally small, I reckon, so it's reasonable to give them the benefit of the doubt.

And in future the correct response to removal of an unsourced and disputed genre is not to reinsert it, but to remove the other unreferenced genres as well. Or, you know, not bother and just leave the disputed one out. Guy (Help!) 20:47, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

I just restored them again. The genre is sourced. They chart on "Hot Christian Albums", "Hot Christian Songs" and there are no sources to counter the claim. Even if the band claims they don't consider themselves to be Christian Rock, etc. the critics do and their music is played by experts in those genres and they are charted in those genres. If they think it's important to them, then they should stop making Christian rock music. I'm tired of bands who "distance" themselves from the term but never leave it behind. If you'd rather that we state something more neutral, I'm open for discussion, but removing material for tenuous reasons of "they don't like it" is not an option. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:25, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Please don't be a dick about this. The band state they do not play Christian music, they are not a Christian rock band, they do not self-identify as such, and in fact they dispute the categorisation. They are a band whose members are Christians, a Christian rock band not a Christian rock band. I now have to go and explain *again* to their management why one of our editors insists on miscategorising them despite having had the error pointed out. Guy (Help!) 03:10, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm not trying to be a dick about this at all. Genres don't work the way you're suggesting. A band may think they are or are not some genre, but the sound they make and the locations they sell is what determines their genre. But let's see what the experts, rather than the band's management, have say:

• The Heat was released in August 2007, and helped establish the band as one of Christian rock's most successful newcomers, spawning several singles and earning two Dove Award nominations. Also "love for Southern rock, leading to a string of strong singles that helped The Outsiders fare well with Christian audiences".
• Marisa Brown's bio from AllMusic is reproduced at http://www.billboard.com/artist/312088/needtobreathe/biography as well.

Let's change the lede sentence to alternative rock, which matches Needtobreathe discography, but the genre must stay in the infobox since it's clear that this is their genre. Feel free to tell their management they didn't pay Marisa Brown enough to ignore the truth. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:50, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Even if they can get those two sources to change, they won't succeed in having the material removed from archives of those sites. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:53, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

These do not make the distinction between the genre of Christian rock and the genre of rock played by bands that identify as Christian. But hey, lets go with namechecks for a genre that the band itself rejects, and piss them off just for the hell of it, shall we? Guy (Help!) 10:52, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't know how you got or have kept this role but when RSes say they're Christian Rock and when they accept awards in the genre I'd have to say that this takes precedence over what their management wants for optics. I don't know why you don't take the same attitude with the manager. We've had to deal with several other such individuals. It's pretty obvious what the issue is, and it's not the article. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:51, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Walter is right. This band and all of its works are DEFINITELY "Christian rock", even if the band denies it. I have seen publicists from the band wanting to whitewash this genre out of their Wikipedia articles before. The band ended last year's 44th GMA Dove Awards performing their Christian Rock song "Keep You Eyes Open". Wikipedia should not be inaccurate despite of reliable sources. Royalbroil 00:57, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Rivers in the Wasteland

I started an article for Needtobreathe's latest album Rivers In the Wasteland http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Rivers_In_the_Wasteland_(Needtobreathe_album)

I need help updating it... although it hasn't been released, it needs dates added for the singles, album cover updated, general info, critical review, etc.

For any contributors, please note that all the words are capitalized in the album title except "the". Do not capitalize "the" or lowercase "In". Mask of Mayhem (talk) 19:20, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

I moved it to Rivers in the Wasteland (Needtobreathe album), which is the correct capitalization, and I fixed some of the layout issues. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:29, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Walter Görlitz please provide the source for your assertion that "Rivers in the Wasteland" is the correct capitalization. iTunes and other retailers show the correct Capitalization as "Rivers In the Wasteland" Jaynehendry (talk) 17:57, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I suspect that Walter is referring to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization). Royalbroil 02:24, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

More broadly, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Capital letters and if you want to see a place that uses the same capitalization MoS: http://www.allmusic.com/album/rivers-in-the-wasteland-mw0002616980 iTunes and Amazon capitalize every word and that is a different (and incorrect in my opinion) MoS. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:34, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Christian Rock

Made a change for the Needtobreathe page and it was reverted back. However, if you look at several of their interviews they have continually denied being labelled a "Christian" Rock band due to the fact that it can be a somewhat exclusive title. Just thought you'd like to know.

209.119.87.3 (talk) 18:40, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

They may deny an association to that genre, but reviewers and their acceptance of awards in that category speak against that. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:09, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

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American Rock Band

@Walter Görlitz:, I want to cite a few sources confirming that NEEDTOBREATHE is an American rock band that has had crossover success in the Christian music market, not a "christian band." NEEDTOBREATHE creates music that is intended for a broader audience than the label 'christian band' implies. The band does have Christian influences and they have received accolades/awards from Christian music organizations because they acknowledge their success in that particular market, but much like the band Switchfoot the members of the band are Christian by faith, not genre. Not only does NEEDTOBREATHE consider themselves to be a rock band as they recently elaborated on in an interview to Rolling Stone, there are many credible media outlets that describe them so as well including Billboard and The Associated Press . Please also see the language in a recent article and interview by theCharleston Post & Courier where they are described as "southern rockers" and also discusses their influence and success in the Christian market.

NEEDTOBREATHE's latest album H A R D L O V E debuted at #1 on the Billboard Top Albums, Top Current Albums, Top Rock Albums and Top Alternative Albums charts and #2 on the Billboard 200.

Please also read this recent article from The Tennessean which calls them a rock band and says, "“H A R D L O V E” and the group's current single "Happiness" also shows up on Billboard’s Christian music charts, but that’s a label the band doesn’t claim. Rinehart explained NEEDTOBREATHE members are Christians and their values may make it into the music they write, but that they’ve spent their careers avoiding potentially lucrative opportunities that would have “pigeon-holed us in a faith-based world.”

“Now we don’t think about it very much,” he said. “We grew up with incredibly conservative backgrounds. Our parents would let us listen to Christian music only, which is a big reason we didn’t want to have our records just in that world. We wanted to have them in all kinds of places.""

Also see this quote from NEEDTOBREATHE's keyboardist Josh Lovelace in a recent interview with The Knoxville Sentinel: "We're very open about our faith and it does inspire us, but we can't compare ourselves with a Christian artist. We don't do the same things and we're not trying to promote the same things, if that makes sense.""

NEEDTOBREATHE is an American rock band that is signed to Atlantic Records. The band today recognizes their strong following among the Christian market, yet continues to write music that appeals to fans across all genres.

Kaileypearce (talk) 00:34, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

References

That's awesome but doesn't not cease to make them a Christian rock band. Christian music artists have had higher sales in the Billboard 200. http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/475277/tobymac-earns-first-no-1-christian-album-on-billboard-200-since-1997. And other Christian bands have topped other non-religious, non-Christian, and non-gospel charts.And I'm super happy that you dug up some of the press that you and the rest of the management team convinced them to say about being Christians and not wanting to be pigeonholed. Switchfoot's management did that before you all did that with Needtobreathe, and now they're regretting it. They've ceased to be popular on mainstream radio and festival circuit and they have had to go hat-in-hand to the Christian marketplace and be who they are. The real problem is, what do you do with their Christian music awards? There are Christians who have made music and never put their name into the Christian industry. I have no problems with them doing that. That's not the case with Needtobreathe and you'll be hard-pressed to convince me otherwise even with lots of interviews. I didn't give up on Tim Lambesis until he came out and renounced his faith (and he seems to have an epiphany moment while in prison, but the jury's still out on that one. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:52, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Third opinion

Response to third opinion request:

This one is pretty simple. The sources in the article state that Needtobreathe are an American rock band and a Christian rock band; I mean, the lead section even states this. Thus, they should be classified as an American Christian rock band (there is a Category:American Christian rock groups, you know). Erpert blah, blah, blah... 22:17, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

It could be worded "an American rock band identified with the Christian rock genre", or something like that. If they are trying to move away from that genre pigeonhole, then this information can be expressed in the article's content if there are sources for it. But we cannot avoid mentioning in the lead their primary current identity - those numerous "Christian rock" awards listed in the article would not have been given out for a rock band who just happened to have Christians in it. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:09, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

The article could probably use a section about the dispute between the genre of the band and how it is such a large debate. The band does not have to be labeled as one or the other, but the dispute could be talked about in order to give the reader some background on how people view the band's genre. Kinglj1 (talk) 22:45, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

@Kinglj1:, It seems Switchfoot did this. Their page had a similar debate and it seems like they settled at a happy medium. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.80.218.97 (talk) 22:55, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

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Christian rock 2

While the band has stated that they are Christians who play rock music, we have more than enough in the way of sources to support the genre. Complete removal is simply ignorant and falling into their marketing. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:59, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Please read this entire talk page if you want an explanation for why they are classified in the Christian Rock genre. Royalbroil 04:02, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

@Royalbroil: I have agreed not to revert to that consensus, but an WP:SPA made a change away from the genre. Would you mind looking at it and seeing what you can do? Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:29, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Could you give me more background? What outcome was reached by consensus? I haven't been following this page closely. Royalbroil 04:32, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm not going to lead you. Feel free to check the discussion above and the archives. If you think the genres in the infobox and lede reflect the discussions and consensus, no changes need to be made. Otherwise, feel free to make changes. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:02, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

@Walter Görlitz: Walter, Looks like despite the temporary hold on edits regarding the genre dispute, you added the Christian Rock genre on the main page. You refer to the change as a result of the discussion on the talk page, but there was never a conclusion established on either side of the conversation. In an effort to continue the integrity of this site, can we mutually agree to have a third editor weigh in who holds no partiality to the matter? MikeJonesJones (talk) 17:39, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Despite asking to engage in discussion you decided not no. I restored the genre after a discussion. There was never a conclusion that they were not a Christian rock band either. There was collusion to make it appear as though they were not. The facts are simple: they have won awards as a Christian band and their management wants to downplay that aspect for some reason. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:43, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

And yes, I'd be happy to have a third established editor weigh-in. Based on what happened last time, I would not agree with a relatively new editor. @Royalbroil: has already commented on that above (on April 4). @Kinglj1: commented above after a sockpuppet did. However, if you want to open it up to additional editors, feel free to. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:56, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I completely agree with you and appreciate your wisdom that it needs an established editor to weigh-in on this. I'm catching up on the regulations for genre determination and is there another source besides winning awards that would help with an appropriate determination either way? Other artists, Carrie Underwood and Hillary Scott have also received category awards but are not distinguished in the Christian genre. Do their notations need to be explored as well? --MikeJonesJones (talk) 19:07, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I argue that ANY of the following warrant inclusion for any musical genre: chart appearances, category awards, and radio airplay. Needtobreathe is VERY FAR from being "on the bubble" for having many Christian musical genres. So I argue that Hillary Scott and Carrie Underwood should have a/several Christian genre(s) added to their articles. A third well established impartial editor should be versed on Wikipedia's policy/precedents/5 pillars. Royalbroil 04:37, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

David Leonard

Once this becomes unprotected, would someone mind noting that David Leonard is not currently in All Sons & Daughters? That group dissolved. Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.207.59.52 (talk) 19:50, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Last two albums

Why no new pages for Out of Body or Into the Mystery? Rossidor (talk) 05:25, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Out of Body probably could have one as it charted and likely has some non-trivial reviews (see Wikipedia's notability guidelines for albums). Into the Mystery just released, and if it is notable, we should have one there as well. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:29, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Not Christian rock

The genre "Christian rock" was never appropriate and is very outdated. A person is Christian, music is not. I see lots of good arguments for them not be labeled on here as a Christian rock band, but it seems there's some personal reason some people have for this page saying "Christian" on it. The page should reflect what the band says, not a couple editor's personal preference. Just my two cents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rorys1989 (talk • contribs) 04:48, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

The band has stated they aren't Christian rock. No one seems to have made any argument to my last post about this. So why does that false genre stay on the page?Rorys1989 (talk) 03:31, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

The only person who ever stood in the way of this being changed has been indefinitely blocked, so I'll go ahead and change it now. I should note, however, that you want change for the wrong reasons. dannymusiceditor ^oops 05:48, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. But citing the band's actual words is the wrong reason? Rorys1989 (talk) 04:32, 6 November 2022 (UTC)