Talk:Names of the Irish state

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Names of the Irish state article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2: 12 months

Other talk page banners

Ireland High‑importance

	Ireland portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject IrelandTemplate:WikiProject IrelandIreland
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Linguistics: Etymology Low‑importance

	Linguistics portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Linguistics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of linguistics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LinguisticsWikipedia:WikiProject LinguisticsTemplate:WikiProject LinguisticsLinguistics
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by Etymology Task Force.

Celts Low‑importance

	Names of the Irish state is within the scope of WikiProject Celts, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of the ancient Celts and the modern day Celtic nations. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article or you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks or take part in the discussion. Please Join, Create, and Assess.CeltsWikipedia:WikiProject CeltsTemplate:WikiProject CeltsCelts
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Republic of Ireland (term) was copied or moved into Names of the Irish state with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

We, the people of Éire,

I am unhappy with this edit [1]. The preamble to the 1937 Irish Constitution in English says "We, the people of Éire," rather than "We, the people of Ireland," where the Irish starts "Ar mbeith dúinne, muintir na hÉireann,".[2][3] This should be mentioned as it points to Éire being an acceptable word in English. In addition, another point is that Article 4 says "Éire is ainm don Stát nó, sa Sacs-Bhéarla, Ireland" in Irish and "The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland" in English (with italics as in the original) rather than the more natural "The name of the State is Ireland, or, in the Irish language, Éire", and so fails explicitly to present Éire as being an exclusively Irish usage. --Rumping (talk) 23:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is a misinterpretation. The 1937 Constitution declared that the first language of the state is Irish, with English as a second language. So the primary name is Éire, since that is its name in the first language. The Article then proceeds to give the name in the second language - Ireland. Remember that each version is a direct translation of the other. Thus in all legistlation (which must exist in both languages), the name Éire (or na hÉireann) is always used in the Irish version and the name Ireland (or of Ireland) is always used in the English version. I suggest you read the article Éamon de Valera to understand the background and context to this. --Red King (talk) 22:31, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Always? So what is "We, the people of Éire," a translation of? What language is it in? Why can it not be mentioned in the article? --Rumping (talk) 02:06, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Rumping. As per the use–mention distinction, the preamble uses "Éire" while Article 1 merely mentions "Éire". The latter can arguably be justified on the first-national-language argument; the former cannot. Éire in the preamble is a relic of Dev's initial support for the idea of using the Irish name in English, which he thought better of when Britain started using the name in an exclusively partitionist sense. The 1996 review advocated using Ireland in the preamble and rewording Article 1 more simply. This is all very relevant. jnestorius^(talk) 11:28, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I don't follow? --Red King (talk) 23:15, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The preamble says "We, the people of Éire,...". Article 5 says "Ireland is a sovereign, independent, democratic state." Why does Article 5 not say "Éire is a sovereign, independent, democratic state." Alternatively, why does the preamble not state "We, the people of Ireland,...". jnestorius^(talk) 08:55, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

""Éire" while Article 1 merely mentions "Éire"." -- did it use Eire -- when? Any references? Djegan (talk) 14:16, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I meant 'Article 4 mentions "Éire"'. jnestorius^(talk) 07:56, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But the words Éire and Ireland have identical meaning: Ireland (island). As of Article 1, the name of the state has yet to be defined so it must not be assumed that the Article is using the word Éire to mean the state as opposed to the island as a whole. Given Dev's politics, I would be astonished if it were not the latter. He wanted to assert that the name Éire is historic and predates 1000 years of English interference. In all honesty, it seems to me that this analysis of the text and sub-text is searching for hidden meanings that were never considered, and missing the obvious.--Red King (talk) 23:04, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It also says

Article 9

1. 1° On the coming into operation of this Constitution any person who was a citizen of Saorstát Éireann immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution shall become and be a citizen of Ireland.

So is "Saorstát Éireann" (Irish Free State) also a legitimate expression to be used in English? --Red King (talk) 23:04, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good question. The answer today is No, but back then it was Yes. Searching the Oireachtas debates for 1936 gives 5367 matches for 'Saorstát' versus 4107 for 'Free State'. jnestorius^(talk) 07:56, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Article 4 another interpretation ?

The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland

So the name of the state is "Ireland" in the English language but "Éire" in every other language ? 2.127.208.169 (talk) 00:20, 22 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Southern Ireland

AlwynJPie appears intent on re-writing the lede from the perspective of Southern Ireland. For example, he/she is repeatedly changing, "There have been various names for the state that is today officially known as Ireland..." to "There have been various names for Southern Ireland...".

Under mainstream views, Southern Ireland was for all-intents-and-purposes a legal fiction. It never passed an act. Its parliament met only once. Only four members showed up.

Better to frame the article from the perspective of the current state, which is well-established, rather than historical curios. We can then work backwards to Southern Ireland, which is notable enough for the subject of this article. --Tóraí (talk) 08:54, 24 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

All the edits I have done are to clarify the facts. Everything I have put has been factual. For example the lead in this article implied that the Free State only included the 26 counties when, in fact, the Free State originally included Northern Ireland as well as the current state. I improve articles by clarifying the facts and correcting errors. The term Southern Ireland was the name given to what is now the sovereign state when the island was partitioned in 1921. I have no political axe to grind. Southern Ireland is not an obscene or offensive term, it is an important part of our history, and I can see no good reason to eliminate or surpress its use. AlwynJPie (talk) 19:32, 24 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

From the constition of the Irish Free State: "...the powers of the Parliament and the government of the Irish Free State shall not be exercisable as respects Northern Ireland and the provisions of the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, shall, so far as they relate to Northern Ireland, remain of full force and effect..."

As regards to the article, it says that, "[The state that is today officially known as Ireland] makes up almost five-sixths of the island of Ireland." That is entirely correct. --Tóraí (talk) 07:54, 25 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I, like many others, use the term Southern Ireland purely as an apolitical geographical term for the 26 counties. The terms Free State or the Republic are not appropriate as they have and, in some respects, still claim all 32 counties. Southern Ireland has always been just the 26 counties. AlwynJPie (talk) 19:58, 8 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Provisional Government of Ireland (1922)

I see no mention of the Provisional Government of Ireland (1922) in the article. Surely this omission, even though short lived, should be corrected. ww2censor (talk) 10:05, 24 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In what way is it relevant to any name given to the state? Dmcq (talk) 13:45, 25 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

How is that NOT relevant, when it was name of the state for 11 months? ww2censor (talk) 14:12, 25 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(Coming late to the party) Provisional Government of Ireland (1922) was a compromise title for the article: see Talk:Provisional Government of Ireland (1922)#Requested move 8 April 2015. The compromise was necessary because there was no name specifically given to the country during those 11 months. The Provisional Government was simply called "The Provisional Government". Scolaire (talk) 08:15, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

June 2018 - Google - "Republic of Ireland".

Google is using "Republic Of Ireland" as the name of the country in its Google News website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.209.180.229 (talk) 00:39, 7 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Unsourced statement

Until the 1998 Good Friday Agreement, British government and media declined to use the name 'Ireland', preferring 'Eire' (without accent) until 1949 and 'Republic of Ireland' thereafter.

Where is there evidence for this statement?Ériugena (talk) 20:28, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]