Talk:Matter (standard)

Requested move 18 June 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. While there is a point that the current title is somewhat misleading and may fail WP:Recognizability test, it satisfies requirements from WP:NCDAB and is unlikely to be stumbled upon by a casual reader. No such user (talk) 14:32, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

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Matter (standard) → Matter (connectivity standard) – More descriptive name [[User:|Quangson306]] (talk) 00:16, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:43, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

• @Quangson306, Elli, and Scorpions13256:queried move request Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:48, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
• @Quangson306: it's disambiguation - it only needs to be descriptive enough to be unambiguous. I suggest you withdraw this request, unless the name is ambiguous with some other standard. Elli (talk | contribs) 01:07, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
• I don't think this change is required. -Kj cheetham (talk) 11:26, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
• Same. Scorpions13256 (talk) 20:44, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support. The present name is misleading: it seems to mean "the standard definition of matter", but the article is about a connectivity standard between various sorts of electronic devices. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:48, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Why was this page moved when the request for that move was rejected? It is more than just a protocol. Rather, it is a standard that has a protocol. Betterkeks (talk) 09:18, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@The Anome? InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:28, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

• Reverted as per WP:BRD because the article is about more than just the protocol; rather, it’s about the entire standard (that has the protocol) as stated in the lead and multiple other places throughout the article. Betterkeks (talk) 05:14, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Proprietary or Open-Source?

This article describes the upcoming standard as "a proprietary, royalty-free ... standard." And yet it later says, "Although the Matter code repository is open-source under the Apache license, the Matter specification is licensed by CSA."

Regardless of whether royalties are required, should it really be considered open-source? I mean, what does it matter if anyone can access the source code if you can't *do* anything with it since the license for it is meted out by a single entity.

So which is it? I don't see how it can be both proprietary & open-source as the former seems to violate the spirit of the latter... NebulaofCats (talk) 20:09, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@NebulaofCats: I also think the situation could be clearer, but it is what it is. The code can be open source even under a non-typical license when that non-typical license is an open-source license that says it is. Betterkeks (talk) 06:45, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

@NebulaofCatst So at the end of the say it's nominally open-source but not practically, right? NebulaofCats (talk) 09:14, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@NebulaofCatst *day NebulaofCats (talk) 09:15, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@NebulaofCats: The code in git has Apache License 2.0. Read that license to see what you can do with the code in git. Betterkeks (talk) 19:16, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Right. And the spec itself is also now freely available, but only on request, not for redistribution. Go grab a copy with the link I added to that section. ★NealMcB★ (talk) 03:55, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

The words aren’t entirely contradictory, but you’re not entirely wrong. Most proprietary intellectual property is held confidentially to protect the proprietor’s right to profit from it. In this case this proprietor’s right to profit is being protected by keeping just one small piece of intellectual property required to profit from it confidential; the algorithm that generates security keys for devices. The open source license software may also have to omit some or all of the code that validates a security key in order to make the rest of the code public without giving up any of the profit potential. PolychromePlatypus (talk) 19:20, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Proposed Changes to Lead Section

.

Hello,

I'm seeking input and collaboration on the following proposed changes to the lead section of the Matter (standard) page to add more recent detail and description to the existing text. I would propose keeping existing language (underlined), and incorporating additional text as follows.

***

Matter is a unified, open-source application-layer connectivity standard built to enable smart home device developers and manufacturers to increase compatibility among connected home devices. The standard is royalty-free, with developers and manufacturers only incurring certification costs.[Existing footnote 2] Matter aims to reduce fragmentation across different vendors, and achieve interoperability among smart home devices and Internet of Things (IoT) platforms from different providers.[Existing footnotes 3,4] The project group was launched and introduced by Amazon, Apple, Google,[Existing footnotes 5,6] Samsung SmartThings, and the Zigbee Alliance, now the Connectivity Standards Alliance (Alliance). [New footnote: Smart Home Innovation Set To Accelerate With Matter. 3 November 2022. Retrieved 30 January 2023]

Version 1.0 of the specification was published on 4 October 2022. [New footnotes: "Matter 1.0 arrives". Connectivity Standards Alliance. 4 October 2022. Retrieved 4 October 2022. Tuohy, Jennifer Pattison (4 October 2022). "Matter 1.0 is finally finalized — so what's next?". The Verge. Retrieved 4 October 2022.] The Matter specification can be downloaded at no charge from the Alliance website after providing your full name, company name, email address, and consenting to their privacy policy, but it cannot be redistributed without permission from the Alliance.[New footnote: "Specifications Download Request". CSA-IOT. Connectivity Standards Alliance. 2022. Retrieved 4 October 2022.] The resources available are:

• Matter Core Specification and Test Plan
• Matter Application Cluster Specification and Test Plan
• Device Type Library Specification

The Matter toolkit, which includes the software development kit (SDK), test scripts, and tools, is open-sourced under the Apache License 2.0. The toolkit is available in the Matter GitHub repository where developers may contribute and/or build with Matter. ["project-chip/connectedhomeip". Connectivity Standards Alliance. 14 June 2021. Retrieved 15 June 2021."V1.0.0 Release". GitHub. 30 September 2022. Retrieved 4 October 2022.]

Matter-compatible software updates for many existing hubs became available in late 2022,[Existing footnotes 9,10,11] with Matter-enabled devices and software updates expected to be released during 2023.[Existing footnotes 16]

***

Thank you, and looking forward to receiving feedback! Pennepasta12345 (talk) 18:44, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Sadly, your proposal is too reliant on what appear to be press releases, and on Wikipedia, those are usually considered both primary and non-independent, so we avoid relying on them. Your proposal would also have been too long a lead for such a short article (see MOS:LEADLENGTH, and the read of MOS:LEAD).

I've still made improvements that were partly inspired by your proposal, so address glaring inaccuracies in our article (like stating that Matter is closed-source). But I suggest you base any future proposal on secondary sources, which will make it more likely for people to support your proposed edits. DFlhb (talk) 20:00, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

@DFlhb, I appreciate your response and duly noted re: press releases for this article. Thank you for making changes!

I would like to propose two further changes to this introduction.

First, I would propose changing the source for this sentence:

The standard is royalty-free, though developers and manufacturers incur certification costs.^{[unreliable source?]}

1. "FAQ – frequently asked questions about matter". matter-smarthome. Digitalzimmer. 2022. Retrieved 20 March 2022.

To this source, which is already referenced in the article under further reading:

https://www.wired.com/story/what-is-matter/

Second, it is my understanding that the abbreviation CSA is not used by Connectivity Standards Alliance or affiliated parties. Rather, they are referred to by the full title of Connectivity Standards Alliance. Could we remove usage of CSA for clarity?

Thank you again and looking forwarding to hearing back! Pennepasta12345 (talk) 20:51, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't believe Wired talks about certification costs, but I've added it as a citation for "royalty free". And Wired uses the "CSA" abbreviation, though we could still avoid using it if it's unclear; I'm neutral on that, so we'll have to see what others think. DFlhb (talk) 10:50, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

@DFlhb - again, thank you for your support and suggestions! Thank you for adding the Wired source for royalties. What do you think about using this source regarding certification costs? It denotes that developers will pay a testing fee and application fee for certification.

https://csa-iot.org/certification/why-certify/

I understand re: CSA abbreviation usage. I do recognize that other sources use the CSA abbreviation, although as a company I see their website/text use "the Alliance" (after first use) or "Connectivity Standards Alliance" in full form. I do wonder if other mentions of CSA, like CSA (database company) and CSA Group, create confusion, which could be mitigated with using the full name Connectivity Standards Alliance. Again, understand the neutral position! Pennepasta12345 (talk) 19:24, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Good link; the CSA is reliable regarding the certification costs they impose.

I do think it would improve clarity to repeat the full name upon first mention in the "Supported devices" section, so I've done so (and linked it again, since it's the "first occurrence after the lead", per MOS:REPEATLINK). I've also trimmed the Supported devices section of what seemed like undue detail. As I've said, still neutral, so we should likely wait for wider input. DFlhb (talk) 20:07, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! Pennepasta12345 (talk) 23:09, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Issue with contradictory information

In the following paragraph, two contradictory statements are made.

1) That the first revision of matter will be 18 months after launch

2) That Matter v2 is expected march/april 2023

March is now expired to all intents and purposes, but this the the first indication i've read that v2 would be 18 months after launch
========================================
Updates to the standard are planned to occur every six months, although the next version is expected to be published 18 months after the first version was published and include new features, devices, device types and certification methods. Version 1.0 of the specification was published on 4 October 2022. It introduced support for lighting products (such as mains power plugs, electric lights and switches), doorlocks, thermostats and heating, ventilation, and air conditioning controllers, blinds and shades, home security sensors (such as door, window and motion sensors), and televisions and streaming video players. As of 2022, version 2.0 of the specification is expected to be published in March – April 2023. While the details are not available yet, the working group has been working on support for robotic vacuum cleaners, ambient motion and presence sensing, smoke and carbon monoxide detectors, environmental sensing and controls, closure sensors, energy management, Wi-Fi access points, cameras and major appliances.
==========================================
` 195.89.130.7 (talk) 11:23, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, I have not found any sources myself that state when Matter version 2.0 would launch including the support for the products mentioned above. 157.97.216.50 (talk) 11:34, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

User:Betterkeks added the "18 months" part back when the second part said "March – April 2024", and the latter was changed to "2023" by an IP. DFlhb (talk) 10:59, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

I've now changed it to stick closer to the source — DFlhb (talk) 11:02, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Proposed Changes to Background Section

Hello,

I'm seeking input and collaboration on the following proposed changes to the background section of the Matter (standard) page, to update the section based on recent events. I would propose keeping existing language (underlined), cutting some text (strikethrough) and incorporating additional text as follows.

Background

In December 2019, Amazon, Apple, Google, Samsung SmartThings and the Zigbee Alliance announced the collaboration and formation of the working group of Project Connected Home over IP (CHIP) to build a standard that simplifies the development of smart home products while increasing the compatibility of the products for consumers. [1][2] The goal of the project is to simplify development for smart home product brands and manufacturers while increasing the compatibility of the products for consumers. In May 2021, the Zigbee Alliance rebranded as Connectivity Standards Alliance and Project CHIP rebranded as Matter. [3][4]

The standard is based on Internet Protocol (IP) and works through one or several compatible border routers, avoiding the use of multiple proprietary hubs. Matter products run locally and do not rely on an internet connection, although the standard is designed to talk to the cloud easily. It is intended to enable cross-platform of smart home devices, mobile apps, and cloud services, and defines a specific set of IP-based networking technologies for device certification.

The project group is also expected to be joined by some other board member companies of Zigbee Alliance.

Sources:

[1] Gurman, Mark; De Vynck, Gerrit (18 December 2019). "Apple, Google, Amazon Want One Language for Smart Devices". Bloomberg.

[2] Haselton, Todd (18 December 2019). "Apple, Google and Amazon are cooperating to make your home gadgets talk to each other". CNBC.

[3] The Zigbee Alliance Rebrands as Connectivity Standards Alliance. 11 May 2021.

[4] The Connectivity Standards Alliance Unveils Matter, Formerly Known as Project CHIP - CSA-IOT. 11 May 2021.

Thank you, and looking forward to receiving feedback! Pennepasta12345 (talk) 15:57, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Proposed Additional Section - Use Cases

Hello,

I would like to suggest an additional section to this page, under the background section. I believe a use case section would provide more clarity and pertinent detail on the standard.

Proposed text:

Use Cases

Devices supported at launch include:

Bridges

Controllers

Door locks

HVAC controls

Lighting and electrical

Media devices

Safety and security sensors

Window coverings and shades

Source: https://www.consumerreports.org/home-garden/smart-home/matter-smart-home-standard-faq-a9475777045/

Looking forward to getting other's thoughts! Thank you for your consideration. Pennepasta12345 (talk) 19:41, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

It’s a nice idea but a catalog of use cases would be of no real use to the general public because product development is effectively restricted to a consortium of member companies. The restriction stems from the substantial corporate license fee and per unit fees to create the network security keys required for a device to use this networking protocol.

A exhaustive list of use cases, the objects in a home that could be connected to the internet of things, may be the same as the list of objects in a home. The utility value to the consumer, which drives prioritized “use cases” is unfortunately not a determining factor. If it was, there would be more things that perform everyday chores. What distinguishes uses likely to be realized is the profit to be realized by marketing the product, either by its sale or by recurring subscription fees. PolychromePlatypus (talk) 19:02, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Contradictions in WP

The „Thread“ and „Matter“ articles contradict each other in a major way. Thread says under “Use cases” about Matter “leveraging Thread, Wi-Fi, and Bluetooth Low Energy” While Matter says “support is limited to Wi-Fi, Ethernet, and the wireless mesh network Thread”. The Matter sources are more current and from the maintainer, so I’m intended to trust them. But I’m neither an expert on the subject matter nor an editor. If an expert / editor could resolve this, I would be very grateful. (Cross-posted to both articles) Mbuette (talk) 21:08, 18 December 2024 (UTC)