Talk:Matryoshka doll

Origin

Matryoshka-selling websites propagate a history about a Japanese Fukuruma toy as an origin of matryoshka. This word does'n go in any other context (with an exception of a Japanese name). So it looks like a Russian legend. Does anyone know for sure that there exist such kind of Japanese toys? I know there are sets different-sized Japanese dolls, but nested ones didn't come to my attention. Mikkalai 07:40, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Time to hit the library, almost certainly been researched by somebody, but maybe too obscure to be documented online. Could be a typo for some other name, or even a one-off toy that someone saw once in a Vladivostok shop... :-) Stan 16:42, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

OK. The closest match I've got is Fukurokuju. Mikkalai 02:26, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It is indeed so. Mikkalai 03:24, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I see that [1] has a purported photo, but unclear if it's original or replica. Stan 03:38, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

And check out the nested eggs at the end of [2] ... Stan 03:46, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Still don't have the direct connection, but Fukurokuju is getting warm - he is one of the Seven Gods of Fortune or Shichi-fuku-jin, who are apparently often represented by carved objects. Stan 03:55, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually, I've already updated the article, and indeed nested shichifukujin are seen on web. Mikkalai 06:20, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

in fact, even in your hakone reference. Mikkalai 06:21, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I disagree that matryoshka are not traditional folk arts. The concept was indeed adapted from Japan, but the shape of the dolls and artistry are unique to russia. By the way, the Kirov factory is the largest single producer of Matryoshka. They are produced by the company 'Art Alliance.'[3][4] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.17.64.163 (talk) 14:19, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

The word "Fukuruma" does exist in Japanese, but its meaning has no relation to the Russian doll, for it means "wheelcart to transport books". It would seem that the word "Fukuruma" as related to the Russian doll is a conflation of the Japanese words "Fukurokuju" and "Daruma". Both deities have been represented as wooden dolls and continue to be. Whether the words were contracted deliberately, or were simply mixed up in the memory of whoever brought the Japanese sample to Russia, is hard to determine.WvdWalle 16:34, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Baboushkas and dedoushkas?

Who ever calls matryoshkas baboushkas and dedoushkas? Not in Russian, anyway. But I have not heard it in English either. Any sources? Cema 20:42, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Removed. No reason to propagate misconception, even if someone uses the word. mikka (t) 16:41, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Never ever heard that and I have no idea where it came from, I'd rather remove it from the page. --Pashator 19:40, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I put that in the article. Who doesn't call them that way? See [5], [6], [7], [8]. In Serbian the doll is known as бабушка exclusively. Nikola 09:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Nobody call them that way! Your links to google are incorrect, they are reffering to Wikipedia or some other websites in English, no websites in Russian reffering to "babushka" (бабушка) can be found. If it's known in Serbia as "babushka" then it should be stated in the article otherwise it should be removed. --Pashator 19:40, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Ha-ha-ha "babushka doll" lol, it's the first time I hear about that, livin in Moscow. Russians never tell "babushka doll", only "matryoshka" - "матрёшка" on (or in, sorry) russian language. And funny image with russian politics. Putin not working in KGB no longer 20 years, and KGB... this is from USSR. Sorry for my lang. Only biggest three persons looks like similarity, further comically. Hmm, probably Brezhnev, then Mao Zedong? Stalin))) Lenin)) Nikolay II)))) (russian 213.5.78.80 (talk) 03:14, 1 February 2011 (UTC))

Mao Zedong or Chingiz Khan? And who is after Nikolay II in new file Russian_Leaders_Matriochka.jpg - Isaak Newton? And after Peter I - Rasputin, Jihgurda?) (same russian 94.45.164.191 (talk) 22:21, 20 December 2011 (UTC))

I was fixing a link on the Babushka Doll page, and I think Matreshka and Babushka doll pages should be combined. I've never in my life heard the doll being described as "Babushka," and it's an incorrect term anyway. It's perpetuating a stereotype akin to calling all kerchiefs "babushkas" as well. I accept the term exists in languages other than Russian in relation to the doll, but the google links provided are also self-perpetuating, as they all quote Wiki...Ani td 04:23, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

The word "babushka" isn't any less correct than the word "matryoshka". What would be the logic for saying that "babushka" is an incorrect term? Babushka is an existing Russian word that refers to a female person, so it's not "wrong" to call the doll a babushka doll. The fact is that the doll is not called a babushka doll *in Russia*, but in many other places in the world the doll is called that. To say in the article that "babushka" is an incorrect term, is misleading. It is not incorrect -- it is simply not the term used in Russia. I think it should be said that while "matryoshka" is the most common term, the term "babushka" is also used (primarily outside of Russia). -- leuce (talk) 16:46, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

The logic? Since "babushka" is a correct term in Serbian, but not in Russian, for what reason it is translated as Russian word "grandmother", but not as a corresponding Serbian word? The reference to Russian word "babushka" (=grandmother) *is* misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.153.22.4 (talk) 21:54, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

IPA pronunciation

Can someone add an IPA pronunciation to lead? I was wondering how to pronounce the word "Matryoshka" and I'm sure other people may wonder as well. Thanks. --Jtalledo (talk) 23:28, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Cyrillic showing up incorrectly

I have a question...the Cyrillic for "matryoshka" shows up incorrectly on my computer as "mamryoshka" (i've viewed it in both unicode and cyrillic formats) although when i went to edit the page i noticed that it was input correctly...does anyone know why this can happen?

specifically, it was input correctly on the "edit" screen but shows up as (sorry, i can't input all cyrillic letters on my computer so this will look a little funny) as "mamρëshka" instead of "maΤρëshka" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.87.78.93 (talk) 20:10, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Cyrillic cursive т looks like Latin cursive m. Do you see матрёшка properly? How about матрёшка? Nikola 10:36, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Deleted reference

I don't know which joker in the long and complicated edit history is responsible, but it's really poor form to delete the link to a website used as reference. If you don't like the site, find a better one, don't just delete. Stan 18:51, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Mention

Is it worth mentioning (for the Popular Culture section) the similarity of the boss character Blizzeta (from The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess) with the Matryoshka doll? --Twicemost (talk) 00:18, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

So how do they make them then?

Or is it a state secret? Johnbod (talk) 03:35, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Japanese Origin

I think the widely believed Japanese origin of matrioshkii should be included here. There is no question that the Japanese create nesting wooden dolls, and have done so for centuries. The matrioshka doll first appeared very recently in Russian history. While the doll clearly has contemporary cultural significance in Russia, its origins are decidedly non-Russian. --Popothebright (talk) 03:54, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Whether matryoshka dolls are called babushkas by enough people

There seems to be a little edit war going on with regard to the term "babushka". Those who oppose the use of the term believe that the term is used so little that it should not be mentioned in the article at all. I suppose some people believe that the word is simply wrong, and Wikipedia should not mention the word unless Wikipedia also preaches the fact that the word is wrong.

But let's face it, people... the word "babushka" is a very common word in the English world for this type of doll. Regardless of whether the word is correct or original or etymologically valid or preferred or whatever -- the fact is that the word "babushka" is a very common word for this doll, and I'll wager that many people who use the word "babushka" has no idea what a "matryoshka" doll is, or know that it is the same thing.

• Google hits for +"matryoshka doll" = 49 000
• Google hits for +"babushka doll" = 110 000

• Google hits for +"matryoshka doll" -babushka = 40 000 (number of sites that mention matryoshka doll and that makes no mention of babushka whatsoever)
• Google hits for +"babushka doll" -matryoshka = 66 000 (number of sites that mention babushka doll and that makes no mention of matryoshka whatsoever)

From these statistics it appears as if both matryoshka and babushka are common words, although babushka seems to be twice as common as matryoshka. It also shows that both words have large numbers of users who do not use (or know about) the other word. -- leuce (talk) 13:50, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't deny neither the existence of babushka term, nor its popularity. However the phrase "Matryoshka" (Матрёшка) is derived from the Russian female first name "Matryona" (Матрёна), and "babushka", the Russian word for grandmother clearly implies that matryoshka is a combination of Matryona and babushka, which is wrong. -ushk(-yushk, -oshk, -yoshk, -ashk etc.) is a standard diminutive suffix in Russian (see vatrushka, garmoshka, okroshka). Matryoshka literally means little Matryona. Babushka has nothing to do with the word matryoshka itself, and nobody should get confused about it. So I very much appreciate any mentions of babushka doll, but please make them consistent as to Russian language.Greyhood (talk) 14:12, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I understand your point. Then I suggest the following wording:

A matryoshka doll, also known as a Russian nested doll or a babushka doll, is a set of dolls of decreasing sizes placed one inside the other. The word "matryoshka" (Матрёшка) is derived from the Russian female first name "Matryona" (Матрёна). The word "babushka" is the Russian word for grandmother.

It looks like Матрёшка uses a capital initial. Can we get this in lowercase? -- leuce (talk) 14:08, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Matroyska is lowercase in Russian (матрёшка), of course when not at the start of the sentence or poetry line. Apart from this, your wording seems good to me.Greyhood (talk) 14:34, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Though a consensus seems to have been reached, I would like to point out that the comparison made is totally unfair, as there is a book titled "Babushka's Doll" that comes up in the Google search hits. The doll in question (in the book) is a grandmother's doll, not a nesting doll. In addition, some of the Google results that do not refer to the book instead appear to simply be referring to embroidered dolls.

• Google hits for +"babushka doll" -"babushka's doll" -matryoshka = ~8,930 (Note that this still includes the embroidered dolls)
• Google hits for "matryoshka doll" -babushka = ~232,000 (Note that this includes a couple of Russian Wikimedia pages. Doesn't include the book because "babushka" is in the title)

~Aeonoris (talk) 16:47, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

It is granted that both names are common in English. The real question is, however, are they both current in Russian? --dab (𒁳) 13:58, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

i started calling matryoshka dolls, babushka dolls after reading patricia pallako — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.156.166.139 (talk) 00:59, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

This is the English Wikipedia, not the Russian one. If "babushka" or "babushka doll" is significantly common as a name for these dolls in English, as leuce's statistics indicate, then it should be mentioned in the article. --Thnidu (talk) 02:11, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the previous comment by Thnidu. en.wiki.x.io is for English words. "babushka" is in Merriam Webster's dictionary, "matryoshka" is not. - Bart (talk) 22:29, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I find it odd... that there is all this discussion about a babushka doll. My grandfather (born in Lithuania 1884) and my father traveled to Russia and Lithuania in 1960. They brought back for each of my sisters and I babushka dolls. That is how they both referred to them. That is my experience with the name. Now... the link you used for this article #2 has the following statements in it:

"Matryoshka first appeared in Russia in the late 1800's. However, the concept of nested items did not originate in Russia. Nested boxes are known to have been produced in China as far back as the 11th century. In the 1700s, nested dolls appeared in China and Japan."

And at the end of the article it has this paragraph:

"Another popular form of matryoshka is the Babushka doll. Babushka means grandmother, in Russian. The outer most doll is opened to reveal three more dolls of equal size. Each of these dolls typically holds three more dolls and so on. The Babushka represents the grandmother's generations to come."

Mylittlezach (talk) 20:41, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

See Also

I don't see how the Japanese traditional dolls have much to do with this article. None of the links show a nesting type doll. I think it should be removed.Dylpickleh8 (talk) 02:06, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Etymology

I checked OED Online for the etymology and have restored it to the lead section with reference. The full OED etym. reads:

< Russian matrëška, lit. ‘little matron’ < personal name Matrëna (formerly Matrona, ultimately < classical Latin mātrōna matron n.) + -ka, diminutive suffix.

--Thnidu (talk) 02:30, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

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Images

Why dont u add some pics may be of these dolls being made. Or their use in popular culture? Or the facilities where these were made. Which part of Russia it came from? Chhoton 10:21, 26 November 2011 (IST)

As factories shut down there is a fear that there will be no one left to learn the skills, so the knowledge could be lost

I'm sorry but this is bull. Modern machines can easy mass produce this type of simple toy. The source of the comment is Youtube. Please remove this section.

98.16.115.200 (talk) 06:11, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree and I am removing this. Find Russian source then add it again.--Тежава (talk) 23:08, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

HigglyTown Heroes

This was a TV series on Disney Junior (not sure if it's still running or not) whose characters were very clearly based on matroyshka dolls. I feel like this should be at least referenced, even though it is an American production. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.142.51 (talk) 02:57, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Pop culture?

Would it be useful to have a section on matryoshka dolls in popular culture? I ended up here in connection with the film Rise of the Guardians, in which a nesting doll is an important metaphor in the film for the main character (Jack Frost) learning to understand and accept himself. I personally can't think of other pop culture examples off the top of my head, but it strikes me that they must exist. If so, shall we add a section? --zandperl (talk) 03:06, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• Matryoshka Rocket Bureau: http://redd.it/1vjo52 Featherwinglove (talk) 23:47, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Not popular enough to put on the article's main page; if that's the best anyone can come up with, a Pop Culture section probably would not be beneficial Featherwinglove (talk) 01:05, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Page title

Why doesn’t this article live at Russian nesting doll? —Wiki Wikardo 16:01, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Origins

I see there quite a bit of confusion in the internets. "Fukuruma" is not from Seven Lucky Gods (Shichi Fukujin). A candidate is Fukurokuju. Needs to dig to very first sources. No fukuruma in older books. Newer ones just as well may be contaminated by wikipedia. - üser:Altenmann >t 02:50, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

here some doubts are described, citing a research. And BTW, the very first Matryoshka was neither nested nor void. - üser:Altenmann >t 03:00, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

And the dates in our article are wrong as well. And some facts wrong. This is what happens when a wikipedia article is written indiscriminately from internets, blogs and other bullshit sources. Unfortunately I have no time to fix it now. - üser:Altenmann >t 03:03, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

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no credible receipts about japanese doll inspiring

this is only assertion without facts. this assertion were made from the "Russian Geographical Society", an NGO founded by german baltic founders. no historical facts at all --92.196.121.101 (talk) 20:19, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

The content is adequately sourced. Feel free to take to to the appropriate noticeboard, if you feel the source should be listed as unreliable. Scr★pIron^IV 21:34, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

"Erroneously"?

" In the west, Matryoshka dolls are often erroneously[3] referred to as "babushka dolls", babushka meaning "grandmother" or "old woman". " If that's what non-Russians have decided to call them, then it's not an error. We are allowed to have our own terms for things. Even if we use words derived from Russian. Even if the Russian originals don't have that meaning. --Khajidha (talk) 00:52, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree. They are commonly called that in English. Even if it differs from Russian, that doesn't make it an error. I'm going to change. MClay1 (talk) 15:40, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

I have to agree with your statement. That's just how languages evolve, whether I personally like the change or not. However, there is a time frame where the misunderstanding is still just a misunderstanding, and can be considered wrong. Are we sure that time has past yet?

I hear more people say "ex cetera" than "et cetera", but I have yet to hear anyone who understands the difference claim that the former is correct. It is still allowed to say it, but that does not make it correct.

This may not be the right time to appeal to respect for Russian culture (My own is at an all time low), but to me this is a bit like saying "Your language is not important, so I can decide to call it Babooshka because I already know that word anyway, and I also quite like that song by Kate Bush". The use of the Russian letter "Я" as "R" and the Greek "Σ" as "E" in countless film titles is a similar phenomenon. I always try to imagine how natives feel whenever they see that.

In this case I even have personal experience with how a Russian reacts to "babushka dolls". During a trip to Russia the fellow foreigner I travelled with kept referring to them as that and our Russian friend would correct him over and over. It"s funny how we always want to stick to the first thing we learned, even when corrected by a real Russian in Russia surrounded by countless wooden dolls, all crying "We are matryoshka!".

In my opinion, the reader should walk away knowing that "babushka" is fairly common outside Russia, but considered wrong or non-standard by some. @Mclay1. Then they can make a decision for themselves in this most important question of life and death. ATgeir (talk) 14:58, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Is the definition "a set of wooden dolls", to the exclusion of similar plastic dolls, really correct?

I remember seeing a set of dolls like these in the 1980s that were made of plastic, not wooden. According to the first sentence of the article "Matryoshka dolls (Russian: матрёшка, IPA: [mɐˈtrʲɵʂkə] (About this soundlisten)), also known as Babushka dolls, stacking dolls, nesting dolls, Russian tea dolls, or Russian dolls, are a set of wooden dolls of decreasing size placed one inside another", plastic dolls that otherwise meet the definition would not be Matryoshka dolls simply because they are not "wooden". I suppose this could be correct, but I don't think it is. I think any dolls in this style should be included, regardless of the material used.47.139.47.169 (talk) 01:04, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

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World record

In the section "World record" it says the woman who created it is Russian (and she does have a Russian name), but the source says it was done in the USA, so maybe she's actually American?

I'm also very skeptical about the whole thing. I've found this Reddit article, which shows a picture of a set of dolls where there are actually more than 51, so it presumably isn't the one cited by Guinness World Records, i.e., the Reddit poster made a mistake.

https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/l8dysr/biggest_russian_nesting_doll_set_made_by_youlia/

https://jackjillrocky.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/russian_nesting_dollsset-3-0.jpg

Still, those pictures give an idea of the problems that must exist in making so many dolls that nest one inside another.

If you look at those pictures you can see that the smallest dolls differ in size by a minuscule amount. For one to fit into the next larger one the dolls must be paper-thin in structure, and you'd hardly dare pick one up for fear of crushing it. Down at the smallest sizes they must be even less than paper-thin. Are the smallest ones made of cellophane, perhaps? Or is it fake, they're actually solid and can't be placed one inside another?

In other words, I think there should be a more authoritative source before I'll believe it. RenniePet (talk) 14:32, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

They can indeed be made paper thin; I've seen a 50 level matryoshka in person and the inner layers were incredibly thin and light.

Either way though, the 51 level set is no longer the record, as in 2010 a 70 level set was made for a shopping mall in Hong Kong. I'm not sure what the best citation for it would be for the wiki article, but here's one link to it. Nition1 (talk) 23:00, 21 May 2023 (UTC)