Talk:Marvel Cinematic Universe/Archive 14

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Black Widow timeline

In the timeline section, Black Widow needs to be placed after Civil War as that is when the film takes place and Loki needs to be added after Endgame. Chiade (talk) 14:48, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done Please provide a reliable source stating such information for Black Widow as we have multiple properties after Civil War. Please see the section above regarding Loki. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 14:58, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

I think it's safe to place Black Widow immediately after Civil War. Based on the story, it looks like it happens between the airport scene and final scene in Civil War where they break the Avengers out of the raft. — Starforce¹³ 16:08, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

In Timeline part, updating details of Movie - Black Widow and Loki.
2016 - Black Widow (After Captain America: Civil War)
(Reference -http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Black_Widow_(2021_film)#:~:text=Set%20after%20the%20events%20of%20Captain%20America%3A%20Civil%20War%20(2016)%2C%20the%20film%20sees%20Romanoff%20on%20the%20run%20and%20forced%20to%20confront%20a%20conspiracy%20tied%20to%20her%20past.)
2012 - Loki (after The Avengers)
(Reference - http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Loki_(Marvel_Cinematic_Universe)#:~:text=Alternate%20versions-,2012%20variant,-Further%20information%3A%20Avengers) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kedar U Shet (talk • contribs)

I'm with Starforce13 here. We have enough to place the film as the first thing after Civil War in 2016 here. This source concurs with that, noting the release dates of the music in the film, whilst the 21 years later in the film after the 1995 scene makes this pretty explicit. It also takes place just before the Raft escape at the end of Civil War, as evidenced by the ending. IronManCap (talk) 13:13, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

I've already added it in. When I initially responded, I put the response I did because I had not seen it. Sources stated the "21 years later" from 1995, which of course put us in 2016, and after Civil War, but so are Black Panther, Homecoming and the start of Doctor Strange. After seeing the movie, I knew where it when, and found the source to put it between Civil War and Black Panther. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 14:38, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Alright, I hadn't noticed that. Thanks. IronManCap (talk) 15:05, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 July 2021

The timeline does not include the television series ‘Loki’. I am unsure whether this occurs throughout the page as well. CameronHill0906 (talk) 08:33, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:41, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Deadpool and Korg React

What criteria are we using to include this here? It is relevant to the MCU, but outside of the Deadpool 3 article should it really be included alongside Team Thor and the Simpsons short? Those were made by or with Marvel Studios but I don't think we have heard of any involvement from them for this Free Guy ad. - adamstom97 (talk) 06:58, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I would say we could remove it from here. The thought, in my mind, for the "Other shorts" section, was it being a series (Team Thor) or cover multiple aspects of the MCU (Simpsons short does this, though it is closely tied to Loki). As you mentioned, Deadpool and Korg React is singular to Deadpool 3 in my view, so should be excluded. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:34, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Also agree here, as there is no official indication that it is included as part of the overall MCU franchise, aside from unofficial commentary from various sources. IronManCap (talk) 20:36, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree, it's only relevant to the Deadpool 3 article and not the wider MCU article, outside of promoting and teasing inevitable connections. Trailblazer101 (talk) 21:20, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Agree with everybody above, this should probably be removed from this article. InfiniteNexus (talk) 21:28, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and removed it per the consensus here. IronManCap (talk) 21:30, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

noice – ChannelSpider (talk) 20:04, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 July 2021

In the area where you talk about the time line order. It does not match up with Disney Plus MCU timeline order. 2600:6C4A:7B7F:CA36:696E:FA11:43C7:90E6 (talk) 03:18, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

The timeline is not based on the Disney+ order, it is per the sources provided. - adamstom97 (talk) 03:34, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

I will just add, it is mostly similar to the Disney+ order, but there are more pieces of content included and some differences, as stated, per other reliable sourcing. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:03, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Why do we not include the movie duration as a column in the list of movies table as well?

I feel like this is one of the crucial information that people do look up (at least I do), including it in the table can help people find it easier. Syed Ahmed Qasim (talk) 17:19, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Already responded to this at Talk:Outline of the Marvel Cinematic Universe#Why do we not include the movie duration as a column in the list of movies table as well?. - adamstom97 (talk) 23:19, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Recurring characters table

Hi, there are some things wrong on the "Animation" section, like Chris Pratt in it when he hasn't voiced Peter Quill in What If...? or some returning actors for that series not being included, like Paul Bettany for Vision. AxGRvS (talk) 07:10, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Fixed these two for now. —El Millo (talk) 07:22, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi, should we add Captain Marvel and Thaddeus Ross to the table? According to this: "This section includes characters who will appear or have appeared in at least three MCU films/series and received main billing credit in at least two franchises." William Hurt appeared in more than three films and received main billing in The Incredible Hulk, Captain America: Civil War and Black Widow. I'm not sure about Brie Larson but she is set to make her third appearance in The Marvels and received main billing in Captain Marvel and Avengers: Endgame. AxGRvS (talk) 03:44, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

That makes them qualify, yes. —El Millo (talk) 04:25, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

@Facu-el Millo:  Done AxGRvS (talk) 05:26, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 August 2021

Hello, in the timeline portion, Ironman is set in 2010 and one of the sources for that is an article titled "Marvel has released an official timeline" that article references a timeline that was printed in "Marvel Studios: The First Ten Years." However, in all recent printings of that book both physical and digital, that timeline was actually pulled from the book, meaning that it is no longer a primary source for the information and any references to it are now outdated. I would like source "[96]" removed as it is no longer relevant and has since been removed from more recent publications of the primary source listed in the article. https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/nfpkqy/i_bought_marvel_studios_the_first_10_years_to_see/ This reddit page contains screenshots of the book itself to represent the timeline's removal. I believe in Marvel removing the timeline that it indicates that something is wrong with it and thus should not be depended on to support information in this wiki. DLE2800 (talk) 20:40, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. The edition the information was taken from is still an acceptable source. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:46, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Reddit is not a reliable source. If you have a reliable source that is more up to date than the currently used one, then please present it here and we can update the source. IronManCap (talk) 22:10, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Phase IV could be part of "The Multiverse Saga"

In the introduction of the article, precise that: " Phase IV could be part of what will be called "The Multiverse Saga". With the series Loki and the future films Spider-Man: No Way Home and Doctor Strange in the Multivers of Madness, the next saga, after "The Infinity Saga", would be "The Multiverse Saga". "

Thank you ! Ardimus Sims (talk) 21:37, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done - Please provide reliable sources that verify the content you want included in the article. - Aoidh (talk) 21:59, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Timeline placement - CA:TFA + Hawkeye

Hi, I would have a question about TFA placement.
I know it is placed on timeline as 1943-1945 based on that "official" timeline from the book and it is correct for Steve sections, but movie opens (after 2011 findings of Steve body) with March 1942 (as said in film itself on subtitle) scene with Red Skull getting Tesseract in Tønsberg. So shouldnt "TFA" rather be "1942-1945"?
Also about "placeholder" (commented) Hawkeye position on timeline, yeah it will be on Christmass as confirmed in interview, but based on photos from principal photography it will be in December 2024 (so along SM:NWH) not 2023. On images in shop window can be seen "Happy New Year 2025" (image #2+#4) https://twitter.com/JRennerNet/status/1334605950716669957
Thx much — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.113.198.208 (talk) 07:58, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

For the set photo, we need some further information to determinate that "Happy New Year 2025" thing, presumably if is fake. As for TFA, the bulk of the film mostly starts in 1943, with time spent in 1942 being very little. — ChannelSpider (talk) 09:12, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

CBR also noted these set photos, and they note that Based on this and the winter setting, it's possible that Hawkeye will take place either in early 2025 or the winter of 2024.. I still think we should wait for something more solid, as CBR appears to be speculating. IronManCap (talk) 10:49, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

@IronManCap: Agreed. — ChannelSpider (talk) 19:42, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Spoilers for Venom 2

The two Venom movies have been confirmed to be a apart of the MCU’s multiverse in Venom 2’s post credits scene. Should we create a new section for these movies to show that they are canon to the MCU? Or just put them in with the rest of the movies — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:42:c080:1a60:9d96:92d:957d:adf3 (talk) 15:46, 30 September, 2021 (UTC)

I think it's too soon to jump to this conclusion, but maybe we could add a "Expanded setting" section like DC Extended Universe § Expanded setting? InfiniteNexus (talk) 16:19, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

@InfiniteNexus:, That actually sounds like a good idea. — ChannelSpider (talk) 16:21, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

With that post-credits scene and Michael Keaton's confirmed reprisal of Toomes in Morbius, an "Expanded setting" section or something along those lines would be useful. Trailblazer101 (talk) 17:45, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Plus Tom confirmed that he did do a scene for Spider-Verse and the codirector confirmed that he did write a scene with all 3 Spidey Actors. It definitely makes sense to have a Expanding Setting part. RobbyB3ll4s (talk) 22:00, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure those are just rumors, but it seems the consensus is to add the section in. InfiniteNexus (talk) 23:47, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

This at the moment is only relative to the films of the MCU, and we already have a Sony's Spider-Man Universe section at List of Marvel Cinematic Universe films, so the Venom 2 credits scene info is relevant there. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:33, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

No they weren’t rumors. Tom and the codirector confirmed that he did do a scene for Spider-Verse. https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/06/tom-holland-spider-man-cameo-miles-morales RobbyB3ll4s (talk) 20:37, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Timeline events MCU

According to the Disney+ website, Black Widow happens chronologically after Black Panther. Then after Black Widow is Doctor Strange. Spiderman: Homecoming happens either before or after Black Panther. But since there are different articles and websites about this, and the Spiderman movies have not yet arrived at Disney+, but we can assume it happens before Spiderman. That would make the chronological order: Civil War - Black Panther - Spiderman: Homecoming - Black Widow - Doctor Strange - Thor Ragnarok. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.116.26.56 (talk) 21:44, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done It's unclear what changes you want to make. And, Homecoming takes place in fall 2016. – ChannelSpider (talk) 20:05, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

TV series > TV (or Disney+)

Looking at the nav menu for the MCU, I'm thinking it might be better to change the "TV series" tab under Phase Four to just "TV" or maybe even just "Disney+", since "TV series" implies they'll have multiple seasons like Loki and What If when in actuality most are miniseries, and the presence of the GOGT Holiday Special kind of mucks things up even further because it's a special, not a series of any kind. And specials fall in the category of "TV films", like...Hallmark movies lol. --2603:9000:CC02:4E00:442F:A63B:533E:A159 (talk) 10:54, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Awards and nominations

May you consider adding an award and nomination's section? Will probably be best as subsection of reception. -Cardace (talk) 09:24, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

See List of accolades received by Marvel Cinematic Universe films. —El Millo (talk) 12:00, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Added a see also link. Gonnym (talk) 12:43, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Shang-Chi's exact timeline location

For those that have seen the film (and know from the info prior to release), it's just in "present day". This article on Insider surmises the events are in 2023. I'm personally a bit unsure of that myself, but didn't know if anyone else thinks we should use this source, which would mean it probably would go after WandaVision on the timeline. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 20:59, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

The article is speculating, saying the year's likely 2023 based on some details on the film. I think their speculation is accurate and they're most likely right, but it's still speculation. —El Millo (talk) 21:10, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Yeah that's what I thought. Unless anyone involved says anything specific in the coming days, I think our confirmation will come when it gets added to the timeline order on Disney+. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:21, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Hey guys. I just returned from the cinema (everyone clapped when Bruce came). POST-BLIP ANXIETY? is what it says, and Katy's mom says "Day of the Dead" for "this year". Either near the coming of November 2, 2023, or 2024. If it is indeed 2023, it would be before WandaVision. But i agree with Favre that the confirmation can come when it gets added to the Timeline Order, in the next 45 days. — ChannelSpider (talk) 22:32, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Why before WandaVision? That show is set only three weeks after Endgame. —El Millo (talk) 05:57, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

I was saying that in a scenario, according to Mrs. Chen's comments about Day of the Dead (November 2) for "this year" being "upcoming" and in 2023, it would happen either before or during WandaVision. — ChannelSpider (talk) 06:14, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Just an outside perspective, on MCUWikia and TheComicBoard they are calculating its placement with regards to Chinese Day of the Dead (Qingming Festival), which is at the beginning at April (so April 2024 before F&WS) https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Marvel_Cinematic_Universe_Wiki:Playground/Timeline_Discussion_II:_Part_3_(July-September_2021)#Click_Here_for_Bottom_of_Thread https://www.thecomicboard.com/threads/marvel-cinematic-universe-timeline-continued.14631/page-154 --94.113.198.208 (talk) 17:47, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Right, they wouldn't be talking about the Mexican Día de los Muertos. —El Millo (talk) 18:00, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Didn't know China had a Day of the Dead, so thanks for that. Early April, interesting. So it would be around a week or so before the start of The Falcon and the Winter Soldier (spans about a month), placing Shang-Chi between WandaVision and said series. Still, a non-speculatory reliable source would come soon, or when it releases on Disney+, so it can be added into the Timeline order. — ChannelSpider (talk) 18:37, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Finally there are some articles which mention Shang-Chi placement in April 2024 before F&WS https://screenrant.com/shang-chi-post-endgame-mcu-releases-viewing-order/ https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a37442135/shang-chi-easter-eggs-mcu-references/ --94.113.198.208 (talk) 10:13, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Should the Disney+ order confirm its placement before FWS, that Screen Rant source is the best to use to source it. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:59, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

There is the exacte narrative timeline of the MCU: https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a825774/marvel-cinematic-universe-in-chronological-order —2A01:CB05:8B96:E000:244B:A244:FD7E:A589 (talk) 13:54, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

The precise location of Shang-Chi's "Present Day" events have been nailed down to a tee on the MCU Wiki weeks ago, me being one of the top contributors of that Timeline Discussion linked above in this thread. We have deduced that the film's "Present Day" timeline must span from March 27 — April 4, 2024 (excluding the epilogue) for a variety of reasons which I will provide below:

• The film must occur after Endgame which takes place in October 2023. (Evident by "Post-Blip Anxiety?" posters outside Katy's apartment.)
• The film must occur around the day of the Qingming Festival in April. (Evident by dialogue from Waipo Chen and Xu Wenwu, with Wenwu's dialogue being "[The gate] opens once a year, on Qīngmíng jié.)
• The film spans 8 days excluding the epilogue. (Evident by a multitude of dialogue: Jon Jon's "Two million views in three days!", Wenwu's "The [gate's path] will open up in three days", etc.)

• Shang-Chi was born in 1998-99. (Evident by "Class of '17" T-shirt Shang-Chi is seen wearing early in the film.) 1999 works best as explained later.
• Shang-Chi assassinated his mother's killer at age 14. This happened 10 years prior to the "Present Day". (Evident by dialogue from Wenwu; "I let you have your fun for 10 years...".)
• Shang-Chi changed his name when he was 15. This happens before he meets Katy.
• Shang-Chi was rescued by Katy in high school when he was 15. This happened 10 years prior to the "Present Day". (Evident by dialogue from Katy; "We've been friends for 10 years!".)

• These three most recent events must all occur within the same year.

• As stated above, 1998 and 1999 are the only two viable years Shang-Chi could have been born. If we assume Shang-Chi was born in 1998, these events would have had to have occurred in 2013. 10 years later would be 2023. 2023 cannot work, as the film occurs in April and April 2023 is before Endgame in October 2023. However, if we assume Shang-Chi was born in 1999, these events would have had to have occurred in 2014. 10 years later would be 2024. This works out perfectly, as it is clear of Endgame and can be allowed to occur in April.
• The day of the Qingming Festival occurred on April 4th in 2024. With the final day of the 8-day timespan being the day the gate to Ta Lo opens, this would place the film's events spanning from March 27 to April 4, 2024.

• With all the currently available evidence, the film is able to very firmly rest upon these dates, it's not even funny.

I believe Shang-Chi should be able to be placed on the timeline of the main page. It does not matter where Disney+ places the film, as their timeline is somewhat unreliable, as they have been wrong with the placements of Iron Man 3 and Thor: The Dark World, the former's events definitely occurring in December 2012 and the latter's definitely in November 2013; Disney+ places Iron Man 3 after Thor: The Dark World which is not possible. The Screen Rant source is the source we should go with in this situation as it is the most correct. —DrewVeenstra (talk) 22:48, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

@DrewVeenstra: The Screen Rant source has been used and Shang-Chi has been added to the timeline section, but its currently hidden. — ChannelSpider (talk) 23:02, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

@ChannelSpider: I'm aware; I'd like it to be unhidden. If Homecoming and Far From Home are able to have placements here despite not being on Disney+, why should Shang-Chi be any different? —DrewVeenstra (talk) 23:08, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Unfortunately, unlike Fandom/the MCU wiki, we have to cite actual sources here, so no matter how in-depth your analysis is, it's still original research. InfiniteNexus (talk) 23:24, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Shang-Chi currently has the Screen Rant and Digital Spy articles as sources with correct information. How is that any different compared to Homecoming/Far From Home which also use Screen Rant as a source despite not having a Disney+ placement? —DrewVeenstra (talk) 23:33, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

I didn't say that the SR and DS articles can't be used as sources, I just said your bullet-pointed analysis can't be used as a source. InfiniteNexus (talk) 23:35, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

My analysis was only used as the nail in the coffin for its placement to users of this thread. From what I understand, articles such as Screen Rant can be used as sources on the main page, so why is Shang-Chi hidden despite having a proper source (Screen Rant/Digital Spy) with correct info? —DrewVeenstra (talk) 23:44, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Because per the discussion here, we as editors are believing its placement makes sense, but "Present Day" within the film can me a whole host of things, and consensus is to wait until its Disney+ release to fully confirm its location. WP:NORUSH. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:33, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

In the event where Disney+ were to place Shang-Chi after TFaTWS, what would we do in that situation? That's the thing that worries me the most. The facts clearly state that it happens before, but it seems as though Disney/Marvel doesn't have the most thorough understanding of the timeline post-Endgame, so there's a chance they could screw it up. —DrewVeenstra (talk) 01:45, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Shang-Chi fits perfectly fine after WandaVision and before TFATWS. That's it. Marvelouseditor6651 (talk) 07:42, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Shang-Chi is after TFATWS on Disney Plus JDA 78 (talk) 20:33, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

As I predicted. The Disney+ timeline is not accurate. The main page's timeline already ignores the placements of Iron Man 3/Thor: The Dark World and Black Widow/Black Panther on Disney+, so I don't see why that can't be applied here. —DrewVeenstra (talk) 19:53, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

We do not have a concrete reference point to latch on to for Shang-Chi to definitively state that it is set before or after FWS. Thus, either the source we had until its Disney+ release, or seeing where Disney+ places it, could be correct. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:52, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

When you all are going to add it to the timeline.!? New viewers would think it's not part of MCU. Marvelouseditor6651 (talk) 07:19, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

The sources we currently conflict on when it takes place, but there's no way new viewers would think it's not part of the MCU unless they only saw the timeline. Loki and What If...? are also excluded from the timeline. —El Millo (talk) 22:53, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it's hard to say for certain which of our two valid options are correct: the Screen Rant source that looks to the Chinese Day of the Dead and extrapolating that against what was believed for the Falcon and the Winter Soldier timeline, or how Disney+ puts it, which can be not entirely accurate (see Black Widow there very incorrectly placed after Black Panther when the film clearly puts it at the end of Civil War). - Favre1fan93 (talk) 03:46, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Hawkeye’s Time Placement

Hawkeye’s Director, Rhys Thomas has confirmed Hawkeye takes place in 2024 and it was just a continuity error in the show. I guess we can add this to Codifying attempts as an error lol. https://twitter.com/rhysthom2/status/1463552241302835203?s=21 RobbyB3ll4s (talk) 22:29, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

It wouldn't be notable as it wasn't explicited in the series hence it isn't an actual mistake in the show, plus it was corrected so shortly after it was originally said that in perspective it doesn't matter. —El Millo (talk) 22:38, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 December 2021

Shangchi movie needs to be added to the graphical representation of MCU timeline 2600:1004:B0CD:BC6:6D1B:82FD:DBC6:4610 (talk) 23:30, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:41, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Spider-Man

It feels weird that the older Spider-Man movies are not really listed at all. The DCEU page has its connections to the Arrowverse mentioned and they are much less important to the DCEU than the older Spider-Men are to the MCU. I just feel we should have a Expanded Setting subtopic talking about them and the Venom movies. 76.124.108.43 (talk) 19:27, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

See List of Marvel Cinematic Universe films#Sony's Spider-Man Universe connections. —El Millo (talk) 19:31, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes but the older Spider-Man movies are not part of Sony’s Spider Man Universe, plus that section only talks about people such as Maguire potentially reprising their roles not that they literally did. Sony’s Spider-Man Universe only encompasses the Venom movies the other Spider-Man movies are completely different universes. I think an expanded Setting topic would better represent the multiverse as shown in the movies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.108.43 (talk) 19:40, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

This article encompasses much more than DC Extended Universe. Information about this specific issue is better included at List of Marvel Cinematic Universe films, where I've clarified that Maguire and Garfield did indeed reprise their roles. —El Millo (talk) 21:00, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you I did not notice the section that stated they reappeared. However I still think the topic should be renamed at least since it’s connections are to Spider-Man movies other than those included within Sony Spider-Man Universe (which is so far only the Venom movies) Maybe it could just be renamed connections to Sony properties? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.108.43 (talk) 22:28, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

It probably should be renamed. —El Millo (talk) 22:30, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

TV Shows

Are the shows like Runaways, Helstrom, Daredevil, Defenders etc. canon MkIc (talk) 20:39, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

They haven't been confirmed not to be canon. —El Millo (talk) 21:21, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Then why wouldn't you add them to the timeline MkIc (talk) 14:31, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

They haven't been confirmed to not be, but they also haven't been confirmed to be. For the purposes of this article and section, as is noted with a hatnote, the timeline only covers Marvel Studios projects, not those from Marvel Television. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:11, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

I definitely feel like this will need to be thought about just for the Netflix shows. Seems like it’s the same canon for them but I guess we will see. Hopefully the Hawkeye episode won’t make it just ambiguous. Yeah the rest are still up to debate. RobbyB3ll4s (talk) 05:47, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Man RobbyB3ll4s (talk) 21:33, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Marvel Zombies & Spider-Man: Freshman Year

Since we know they are part of the MCU, why aren’t they listed here but on the MCU Television series article are. I’ve added them before but got removed. RobbyB3ll4s (talk) 21:45, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Yeah I’ve just realized that it was specifically for Phase 4, will add as its own part. I apologize, this is can just be archived. RobbyB3ll4s (talk) 23:55, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Never mind I’m still confused, where would I put Non-Phase 4 shows since we don’t know? I put it here just now and said it wasn’t and was deleted due to not being in Phase 4. RobbyB3ll4s (talk) 00:31, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Feature film timeline table

Why did we get rid of it? It was such a convenient summary of the MCU's history. I strongly propose that we bring it back. Rhosnes (talk) 00:03, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

What are you referring to? We currently have a timeline at the Timeline section. —El Millo (talk) 00:29, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

There's no need to include everything in the main article yet. Films such as Blade aren't included, because its phase is still unknown. —El Millo (talk) 00:36, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

I thought it was pretty clear what I was talking about, but apparently not. I am referring to the table in the "Featured films" section that got inexplicably removed with this edit: [1]. Rhosnes (talk) 14:50, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

It wasn't inexplicably removed, it was moved to List of Marvel Cinematic Universe films, where it currently is. This was done as part of a major restructuring of this article, which was getting too big to handle. —El Millo (talk) 17:19, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Per that recent discussion, there is no need for the large tables to be listed here. We can convey the info quickly with prose by just listing the actual titles, and the "List of" or equivalent articles can showcase the tables. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:20, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 January 2022

ADD Movie "Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings" (Release Date 2021 / Timeline Date 2020) to the timeline. ADD Series "LOKI" (Release Date 2021 / Timeline Date 2012) to the timeline. ArtsyFartSniffer (talk) 15:23, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. - Per the discussion above, there isn't yet a consensus for the timeline date for Shang-Chi, and both would need a reliable source for their timeline dates to add to the table. (I don't know what Loki will end up being, but I'm pretty sure it's not 2012.) PianoDan (talk) 16:12, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Loki and What If both take place outside the "prime"/"main" MCU timeline and thus are not included as noted by the efn note at the top of the timeline. We discuss both of these series in the prose, as well as provide the Disney+ ordering for them, also in prose. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:05, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

First MCU movie

The first MCU movie should be updated to be SpiderMan 2002 23.233.182.185 (talk) 02:24, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Having connections with the Marvel Cinematic Universe doesn't automatically turn it into an MCU film. It wasn't produced by Marvel Studios and it wasn't intended to crossover with other films at the time of its release. Even if it were to be considered part of the MCU now, it wouldn't only be in retrospect, so from a real-world perspective it still wouldn't be honest to call it the first MCU film. —El Millo (talk) 02:27, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

• Agreed. A retroactive adoption does not make the prior film the "first" in the group. Iron Man is, and will always be, that film - even if the X-Men are brought in, even if the 1978 Bill Bixby/Lou Ferigno Incredible Hulk TV series is retroactively made canon. BD2412 T 03:53, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
• I see your point; X-Men (2000) characters are rumored to have a cameo in Multiverse of Madness, that doesn't mean X-Men is the first MCU film. though what if Tobey's Peter Parker becomes a recurrent character... Cornerstonepicker (talk) 10:57, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

The first movie does not change retroactively. The MCU is a 'real-world' project. It started with Iron Man. Anything else that happened later, happened later, including any protentional merger of cinematic universes. Gonnym (talk) 11:01, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

also agree with this, Iron Man oficially launched the MCU. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 13:36, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

By way of comparison, the film Alien came out in 1979. Predator came out in 1987. Both had sequels before eventually joining up in an Alien vs. Predator franchise in 2004. This combination does not make Alien the first Predator film. BD2412 T 18:36, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

The connections to previous films and characters from previous films, but now a part of the MCU, should at least be mentioned somewhere in here. It's bizarre that there's no mention of these ties that I can see.24.59.205.200 (talk) 21:27, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

All these connections are detailed in the List of Marvel Cinematic Universe films. —El Millo (talk) 21:30, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Shang-Chi timeline

I have missed any discussions of this that may have happened in the last month or so, but I notice that Shang-Chi is not included in the timeline. This article lays out pretty well that the film must be set around April 2023 or April 2024, and the Disney+ timeline order sets it between FaWS and Hawkeye which would make it 2024. That means it should probably go between FaWS and Far From Home in our timeline, but that may be a bit WP:OR-y so if we don't want to use those we should at least be on the lookout for something that confirms it. - adamstom97 (talk) 05:35, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

@Adamstom.97: Basically, we continued in the old discussion that is now archived, saying we have conflicting info between third party sources trying to determine a timeframe from the film (before FWS), and then Disney+'s placement, which seems to contradict the third party sources (placing it after FWS). If we go with one, it's likely another editor could claim the other is right, which technically isn't wrong at the moment. I believe we need some more info to justify our choice. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:09, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Cool, makes sense. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:32, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Not sure if this adds any validity but on the MCU wiki page, which its timeline match’s the one that’s here does say that Shang Chi takes place in 2024 and around the same time as FaWS around the spring of 2024.Sheldon the God (talk) 00:55, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

They're just assuming that it takes place before the Qingming Festival in 2024, instead of any other year, but it could very well be in 2025. —El Millo (talk) 01:19, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Now that Eternals is on Disney+, it has been placed in the timeline after Shang-Chi and before Hawkeye. This would definitely set Shang-Chi in 2024, even before Far from Home. But I'm starting to suspect they're just placing the new releases in release order, even in the Timeline Order, except from Black Widow which is unequivocally a prequel. —El Millo (talk) 22:27, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

They've put Loki and What If elsewhere, so I don't necessarily feel they're just going in release order. It just so happened that Eternals follows Shang-Chi in release and timeline order, and the same with Hawkeye for FWS. I do wonder though if we should but Shang-Chi on our timeline where Disney+ puts it until we get a source saying otherwise. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 02:38, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree and would support adding it in there. - adamstom97 (talk) 00:33, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

I also agree. ~~~~ Jazzy Jazz Jr (talk) 08:22, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Is there a need to specify which universe depicts the timeline, and should we hide so many chapters?

I think WP:NOBACKREF justifies removing the pointless subheader, "As depicted in the MCU". We could say that about most subsections in this article all about the MCU. Are we trying to prevent idiots from suddenly assuming it's about a different fictional or known universe now? If so, we're lowering the bar too far. For whatever reason, two editors want it to stay. Why?

And I just got here, so missed the agreement to intentionally hide Level 4 sections from the ToC. I Oppose it. Seems counterproductive to the classic spirit of easy information retrieval, especially with five lower levels mysteriously marked "Other". Discuss. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:15, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

That subheader is clearly there to separate between the timeline based directly on the media and attempts to codify it outside from the media itself. There may be a better alternative to "As depicted in the MCU", but that doesn't mean it should be deleted. Are we trying to prevent idiots from suddenly assuming it's about a different fictional or known universe now? seems almost like intentionally misunderstanding its purpose. What's mysterious about the subsections starting with "Other..."? It's not just "Other", they all say what "other" they're referring to. The reason to hide level-4 subheaders is because otherwise the table of contents gets too big. —El Millo (talk) 06:06, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

I guess I just see the stuff under Marvel Cinematic Universe#Timeline as already what it sounds lke, and the stuff after the big bold "Codifying attempts" line clearly about that. Plenty of Wikipedia sections just start with the header's topic, then subdivide for finer points; this one's strange. In my opinion, an article with more sections should naturally have a longer table of contents, like more expensive movies have more expansive credit scrolls. Not a problem. Not a big problem figuring out where the eight sections lumped under Other sections are (for those who know what they're looking for), but still that much easier with an uncut directory. Nothing I misunderstand is intentional, I promise you. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:16, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

The level 2 "Timeline" header is discussing two major things: the timeline as it is presented in the MCU on screen/in universe, and then the real world attempts to codify the on screen timeline. Thus, we should be giving headers to each since that is what is being discussed. And as Facu stated, the TOC limit is because there are so many sections, it get too long for the article. We only need to be showing up to the level 3 headings, not all the level 4 headers. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:39, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Additionally, "As depicted in the MCU" does not fail WP:NOBACKREF. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:40, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

I still disagree, but agree to leave it in your capable hands. My own universe is calling. Peace! InedibleHulk (talk) 22:32, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

We could change the heading to "As depicted on screen" if that is going to help avoid confusion. That is basically what we mean when we say "As depicted in the MCU". - adamstom97 (talk) 22:17, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

It was never confusing, at least to me, just redundant. As cinematic universes are on-screen, this rewording is still redundant, just less direct. It'd be like choosing between whether to start Cthulhu Mythos#History with "As presented by the Cthulhu Mythos" and "As presented mythologically". I'm not saying don't do it, if you want. Just don't do it for me. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:31, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Adding table of films back in

Hello! Would it be possible to add the table of films back into this page? Rather than listing them all in text? I feel like it's easier to read as a table and it's hard to go through the films here. Additionally, could the same be down for the Marvel Studios TV shows? Currently, there's not one place on Wikipedia where all the films and TV shows are listed in the same spot. You have to go to the films page for the table of films and then you need to separately go to the TV shows page to find those. It'd be great to have them in one place and the main MCU page feels right for it.

Also, I'd argue that the non-Marvel Studios TV shows (Netflix, ABC, etc) should be removed from this page. While they're connected to the MCU now, they're not produced by Marvel Studios. Or at the very least, it could be a note in the Marvel Studios TV show section. We don't list the Spider-Man or X-Men films on here, which are now backend canon, so I feel like the pre-Disney+ shows should get similar treatment. Or possibly it needs a "multi-verse" section to note these dotted line additions to the canon/universe story.

Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.83.206.188 (talk) 15:57, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

No. The whole point of the article restructure was to remove the table. You may still enjoy/find useful Outline of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:15, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, I didn't know about that page. 137.83.206.188 (talk) 16:26, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

What about the non-Marvel Studios produced content appearing on this page? Shouldn't that be removed? 137.83.206.188 (talk) 16:26, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

The non-Marvel Studios content has never been confirmed not to be part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Some of them have been recently more connected, and if there were confirmed not to be part of the MCU, we would still have to mention them given how long they were officially considered part of it. —El Millo (talk) 16:57, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Thor and Loki's names

I know that we have visited this before, although I think it's worth discussing again. Currently on each MCU article page the character is referred to simply by his first name. There have been arguments for why this is accurate. However, during Hawkeye the character is officially "credited" as Thor Odinson. The scene I am referring to is when Clint Barton / Hawkeye visits a memorial for the Avengers in NYC. It lists each individual in the Avengers, and lists Thor as such. An image of this can be seen in the SR article here. As Marvel Studios and the MCU credits Thor as such... shouldn't these articles also show the same? I would further argue that Loki should be reevaluated. During the events of Loki, the TVA refers to him to various forms of Loki Laufeyson. Thoughts on both of these points?--DisneyMetalhead (talk) 16:23, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

That isn't crediting, and while their supposed last names have been used more often lately I don't know if we could actually say that they definitely have last names that are equivalent to the human characters'. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:20, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Those aren't their WP:COMMONNAMES, their last names are rarely used in the MCU. InfiniteNexus (talk) 04:19, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Agreeded. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:44, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

One shot

Should Marvel One-Shots, Team Thor and Peter’s to do list be apart of the timeline 92.236.253.249 (talk) 92.236.253.249 (talk) 23:56, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

The One-Shots are already included, Team Thor is not canon, and Peter's To Do List is not a noteworthy project on its own (it is essentially just a deleted scene for the home media release). - adamstom97 (talk) 02:20, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Whether it is "canon" determines whether we include them? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:45, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

@Emir of Wikipedia: Team Thor's not canon (a "what if" scenario on if Thor stayed on Earth) and I don't think "canonicity" determines whether we include them or not. – SirDot (talk) 22:41, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Team Thor isn't a "what if", it's simply not canon, though that could somehow change in the future. —El Millo (talk) 23:12, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Restore previous protection

@El C: I may be incorrect, but did the change to full protection you made here "overwrite" the existing indefinite semi protection added in 2010 (here)? If so, can that be restored? Wanted to ask you here before going through RPP. Thanks. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 21:38, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Ah, El C. What do we expect from them! Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:46, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Favre1fan93, Done. See what I mean, Abby1101? Also, what are the odds? El_C 08:01, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Alright, let them do their thing. I am also done here. But he/she should realise what a mess he's making of wiki with such a childishness.Abby1101 (talk) 13:28, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

@El C: Thank you. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 14:54, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Characters

Here. Was this hard? Gonnym (talk) 15:24, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

The criteria for inclusion in the character table is "This section includes characters who will appear or have appeared in at least three MCU films/series AND received main billing credit in at least two franchises." That's AND, nor OR. So characters who have only appeared in television series (which is what is meant by "franchise", other examples being "feature films", "digital series", etc.) are not eligible for inclusion. Pretty basic. Rcarter555 (talk) 17:42, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

@Rcarter555:, what you stated in your edit summary (By “different franchise” they mean the categories of “feature films”, “television series”, “digital series”, etc. Basically if they can’t be listed in two columns, they don’t go here.) isn't true. If that were actually the case, we would have to say "different media" instead of "different franchises", becuase otherwise is inaccurate and confusing. Second, check Erik Selvig for example, who is included in the table and has only appeared in films, which is proof that by "franchise" we do not mean "medium" but franchise, just as Thor is a franchise and The Avengers is another franchise. In the same fashion, seasons being equivalent to films, and series not being direct sequels of each other, they are considered to be different franchises as well, making Daredevil one franchise and Jessica Jones another, for example. Read this discussion, where consensus was formed to focus on those recurring characters that appeared in three films and/or series and received main billing for at least two of those, because focusing just on different media appearances favored the inclusion of minor characters over main characters such as Tony Stark, who at the time wasn't confirmed to appear in anything other than films. —El Millo (talk) 20:02, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

You're right. I propose changing it to "different media" and removing Erik Selvig as well. Let's get consensus for this. Otherwise, this table will just become far, far too unwieldy Rcarter555 (talk) 21:27, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

No, as it was said, focusing on "different media" meant shifting the focus away from many main characters towards more minor characters who had small appearances in many different media. —El Millo (talk) 21:38, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

In that discussion, we had also agreed that as the table grew we just needed to make the threshold higher, from "at least three" to "at least four" for example. —El Millo (talk) 21:39, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

We had a long discussion to get this table and criteria to where it is at to represent the MCU characters that are most relevant, as noted above. Erik Selving, an example of an MCU original character who has appeared in at least two franchises-per the criteria-should be included in the table, along with others, such as Daredevil, Luke Cage, Tony Stark, etc., who have appeared across other franchises, as noted by others. If your main concern is that the table will become too unwieldy, then we can discuss a potential plan to make adjustments as needed for the future, but as it stands currently, the table and criteria are working and the expansions to it have been in accordance with the established criteria. I personally would not support making any changes to the table criteria without rationale reason stating this current version has an issue. Trailblazer101 (talk) 23:50, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

The current criteria is: This section includes characters who will appear or have appeared in at least three MCU films/series and received main billing credit in at least two franchises. If a character is in the list which hasn't received main billing credit in two franchises (main billing credit is not the same as appearing) then they don't belong there OR the criteria should be changed. Gonnym (talk) 09:51, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

The issue at question is what constitutes a “franchise”? If a character appeared in “Captain America Civil War” and also in “Iron Man”, does that count as two “franchises”? Or, based on the headers in the table, does that mean “feature films” vs “television series” vs “digital series”, etc. if the former, then why are the headers not the individual “franchises”? Rcarter555 (talk) 13:06, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes, franchises means that. The headers aren't the individual franchises because that would be unbearably wide. —El Millo (talk) 14:50, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Which begs the question of if this table serves any real purpose if it can't even be properly tabled because it's too unwieldy. Rcarter555 (talk) 14:57, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

I don't think it's improperly tabled. The table at Marvel Cinematic Universe: Phase Four#Recurring cast and characters is formatted in the same way, counting appearances in franchises but separating in columns by media, and including recurring characters regardless of whether they appear in different kinds of media. —El Millo (talk) 01:21, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Pinging @Favre1fan93, Starforce13, and Adamstom.97, who also participated in the last discussion about this, for more input. —El Millo (talk) 17:26, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes, the current table is what we agreed on. I think most of the confusion is coming from mistaking "franchise" with media types or trying to group Defenders into one franchise... when it's really more like Avengers in MCU proper. We agreed on the current structure because 1) it gives priority to the notable characters as opposed to minor characters who are more likely to appear in different media types; 2) the media types columns are still informative to show the MCU spread across platforms etc; 3) the criteria is also easy to update in the future because all we have to do to keep the table small is increase the number of films/series or the number of franchises required... as opposed to media types where there's a limit of 5 and a single change can lead to removing/adding dozens of characters. I understand some of the Defenders characters are lesser known but this is a better trade-off than not including Tony Stark or Steve Rogers. If there's ever a need to filter out Defenders-only characters, we could also add a criteria to require appearing in at least one film. But we're fine for now.— Starforce¹³ 20:38, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Starforce's thoughts. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:12, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Ok, so unless others are against these additions or against the table as it's currently formatted or Rcarter555 has something else to say, we should add those cast members back as they pass the threshold. Let's give it a day. —El Millo (talk) 21:21, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

So what's up with this? AxGRvS (talk) 17:02, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Added back, many days after the discussion had no further input on the topic, after explaining that the characters do satisfy the threshold established, with many users in favor of it. —El Millo (talk) 23:03, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Section for the multiverse?

I feel with the various variants/alternate characters we've seen so far with Loki, What If, No Way Home, and now Multiverse of Madness, a dedicated "Multiverse" section (around where "Timeline" is) might be justifiable. Partially, because this bit added by Trailblazer101 on Earth-838 doesn't feel the best with the 19999 and new 616 info. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:01, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Oh yes, I feel that is going to be in need of, and where you said it should be placed can definitely work. My addition was only to get the information there, but we can expand upon it and adjust as needed to fit with the rest of the multiverse info. Trailblazer101 (talk) 22:05, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

We definitely need/will soon need a section for it. The sooner one is made, the better I would think since there will probably be plenty more Multiverse related info in the future. -- Zoo (talk) 22:12, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

My thinking is a section that discusses the project that approach the multiverse, this designation info, and briefly cover some characters/actors making such appearances. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 23:38, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Features of the Marvel Cinematic Universe § Multiverse already has tons of Multiverse-related info. I personally do not see why another section here is needed. InfiniteNexus (talk) 04:04, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

We can hatnote there, but I think this page needs to have a section to talk about the multiverse, particularly the Guidebook designation, the in-universe designation, and then the addition of other universe (until that become unwieldy). - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:22, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 May 2022

change first MCU film to The Incredible Hulk 2601:403:C201:F030:9566:4E93:92DB:9CB5 (talk) 08:08, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. MadGuy7023 (talk) 08:17, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Using the Direct for Timeline orders

With every new project, it seems like The Direct (usually an unreliable source) is the only site that makes an article about where the project is on the Disney+ timeline and including such listing in an article. For these instances only, given the site is literally pulling the material from Disney+, not citing it to a Reddit or Twitter user, do we feel it would be ok to include them as reference here? I'm leaning towards slightly yes, again given what is being reported on, but still believe in other instances The Direct should not be used. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 14:45, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

I'd be fine using them just because their info is directly coming from Disney+ like you said. We can always update refs if other sites report on the timeline in the future. -- Zoo (talk) 14:49, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

CBR has just posted about it. —El Millo (talk) 15:29, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree that since The Direct is directly getting it from a verifiable primary source, we can make an exception and cite them for the timeline. I'm leaning towards them because they usually post the full list and are consistent after every update, like Favre noted. — Starforce¹³ 17:31, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

I think we could go with that if we waited a few days and there were no reliable sources available. —El Millo (talk) 17:41, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

We can use The Direct as a temporary source before another source (probably a low-caliber but still reliable one like ComicBook.com, Screen Rant, or CBR) picks it up, just like how we're using What's on Disney Plus on the I Am Groot right now. InfiniteNexus (talk) 04:05, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Or, as an alternative, we could directly cite https://www.disneyplus.com/brand/marvel and tag it with {{Primary source inline}}. InfiniteNexus (talk) 04:09, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

I did see the CBR one, for this time, right after I made this discussion. @InfiniteNexus: we are currently using the direct Disney+ citation I believe to support the One-Shots in the order. Otherwise, I agree with what everyone else has said. If after a week or so from a new MCU series releasing, no other source discusses how it's added to the timeline, let's go with The Direct. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:46, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree with that rationale. Trailblazer101 (talk) 17:26, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Small change in Feature Films section

I would like to make a small change from this:

Marvel Studios releases its films in groups called "Phases". Phase One consists of Iron Man (2008), The Incredible Hulk (2008), Iron Man 2 (2010), Thor (2011), and Captain America: The First Avenger (2011), and concludes with the crossover film The Avengers (2012). Phase Two comprises Iron Man 3 (2013), Thor: The Dark World (2013), Captain America: The Winter Soldier (2014), Guardians of the Galaxy (2014), Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015), and Ant-Man (2015).

Captain America: Civil War (2016) is the first film of Phase Three, and is followed by Doctor Strange (2016), Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 (2017), Spider-Man: Homecoming (2017), Thor: Ragnarok (2017), Black Panther (2018), Avengers: Infinity War (2018), Ant-Man and the Wasp (2018), Captain Marvel (2019), Avengers: Endgame (2019), and Spider-Man: Far From Home (2019). The first three phases are collectively known as "The Infinity Saga".

Into this:

Marvel Studios releases its films in groups called "Phases".

• Phase One consists of Iron Man (2008), The Incredible Hulk (2008), Iron Man 2 (2010), Thor (2011), and Captain America: The First Avenger (2011), and concludes with the crossover film The Avengers (2012).

• Phase Two consists of Iron Man 3 (2013), Thor: The Dark World (2013), Captain America: The Winter Soldier (2014), Guardians of the Galaxy (2014), Avengers: Age of Ultron (2015), and Ant-Man (2015).

• Phase Three consists of Captain America: Civil War (2016), Doctor Strange (2016), Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 (2017), Spider-Man: Homecoming (2017), Thor: Ragnarok (2017), Black Panther (2018), Avengers: Infinity War (2018), Ant-Man and the Wasp (2018), Captain Marvel (2019), Avengers: Endgame (2019), and Spider-Man: Far From Home (2019).

The first three phases are collectively known as "The Infinity Saga".

This separates out Phases 1 and 2. -RoyGoldsmith (talk) 02:21, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't think this change needs to be made. Prose/paragraph work just fine. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 01:42, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

@Favre1fan93: Sorry for the delay. Why not? -RoyGoldsmith (talk) 08:47, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

The prose/as a paragraph is fine. No need to bullet out the info. Especially since comparatively, phases one and two are so small, having them in one paragraph together is fine. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 15:22, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

References

Timeline

In the timeline, you have it as Falcon and the winter soldier, shang chi then eternals. But thats the wrong timeline order. Its should go Eternals (2023) Shang Chi (2024) falcon and the winter soldier (2024) as eternals is late 2023, shang chi is mid may-april and falcon and the winter soldier is may 2024 92.9.56.95 (talk) 23:38, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

It's not incorrect per reliable sources and Disney+. Eternals is around Far From Home. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 00:16, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

It's actually true that the Disney+ timeline is wrong. In Shang-Chi there are talks about the Qingming Festival which takes place in early April (shortly before The Falcon and the Winter Soldier), so that would be put in consideration. This would not be the first time Disney+ has a mistake in the timeline order, as they have previously put Black Widow after Black Panther, and still have Iron Man 3 after Thor: The Dark World, which is also wrong. On the other hand, Eternals's timeline is a bit ambiguous, so I don't know about that. This GamesRadar article talks about the Qingming Festival in the film: https://www.gamesradar.com/shang-chi-timeline-mcu-marvel/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.239.28.58 (talk)

"Sarah Halley Finn" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Sarah Halley Finn and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 June 18#Sarah Halley Finn until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 19:35, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Moon Knight and Disney+ timeline

I would like to know what do you think about this ScreenRant article regarding Moon Knight and its placement in the Disney+ timeline https://screenrant.com/moon-knight-mcu-timeline-moon-phases-2025/

Also, do you think Doctor Strange 2's recent placement in Disney+ is wrong? (I personally do)

And for the last, do you think we shouldn't trust 100% in what Disney+ says? (based on other previous mistakes) AxGRvS (talk) 10:13, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

The placement may be right if they're considering it's after most of No Way Home but before its brief epilogue during Christmas. —El Millo (talk) 12:30, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

I need to re-watch still, but wasn't there something said that stated roughly how long it had been since NWH, which pretty firmly put the movie in 2025? -- Zoo (talk) 14:20, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

A Fandango Media article (I believe a direct interview with Sam Raimi) stated Multiverse of Madness takes place a few months after No Way Home, which is reliably sourced as mostly occurring in November 2024 (so this should be around February/March 2025, but perhaps that's WP:OR/WP:SNYTH). Something isn't adding up. — SirDot (talk) 14:30, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Here it is, but that statement is in the article's voice, not said by Sam Raimi. So technically the Disney+ timeline would have more weight than that. —El Millo (talk) 15:25, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

In the movie itself, during the restaurant pizza scene with America Chavez, Dr. Strange said the events of No Way Home happened a few months ago. Personally, I believe this might be an error on the Disney+ side that's going to be fixed soon or later. This isn't the first time they've made an error in the timeline and adjusted later. For the sake of avoiding WP:RECENTISM, I would say, let's wait a couple days to see if they stick with this timeline or if they'll move it. — Starforce¹³ 17:21, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Seems like a reasonable decision/choice to make. I have no issues with waiting a couple days to see Eternals-MoM-Hawkeye stick or if MoM is placed after Hawkeye. — SirDot (talk) 17:27, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Ah, yes that's the scene I was thinking of. I knew there was something said in the movie regarding how long it had been since NWH. At the very least D+ just needs to switch it with Hawkeye on the timeline. -- Zoo (talk) 18:24, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree as well this appears to be a mistake. For the time being, I reverted the add of the film to the timeline tables here and at Phase Four, but have include the new Direct article giving the full listing as it currently stands. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:53, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Right move. The film itelf clearly takes precedence over the Disney+ timeline. —El Millo (talk) 21:41, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

I also think the Disney+ placement is wrong, but at the restaurant scene, the line is actually "Most recently, there was an incident with Spider-Man". He doesn't say months have passed. AxGRvS (talk) 23:07, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

You're right, it says "most recently" - I've rewatched it. But for now, let's wait maybe a week just to be sure it's not a mistake. If they stick with it, it will be safe to assume Multiverse of Madness happens between the Statue of Liberty battle and the final NWH scenes that take place over the holidays.— Starforce¹³ 00:11, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

The official Doctor Strange account tweeted acknowledging the Disney+ timeline placement before Hawkeye. So, it's safe to say this isn't a mistake. (I believe this is the first time a Marvel account has ever acknowledged the Disney+ timeline, probably because they anticipated the disbelief.) So, I think we can restore it. We might also want to update any 2025 references to Fall 2024. cc @Favre1fan93, Facu-el Millo, AxGRvS, and ZooBlazer:. Thanks. — Starforce¹³ 03:48, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

So it seems. It takes place between most of No Way Home and its last scene, in a similar fashion to how Black Widow is set between most of Civil War and its last scene. Of course this bit is OR on my part and can't be added until reliable sources say the same. —El Millo (talk) 03:51, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

To be honest, any talk from viewers (including us) on whether the Disney+ timeline is right or wrong is pure OR/speculation. Marvel.com reaffirms the full Disney+ timeline order as well. If there is an RS that notes how this does not make sense, we can sure note that, but I think we should just play it safe and go by what Marvel/Disney says regardless of whether they're wrong (WP:VNT). It's not our job to fact-check their accuracy. InfiniteNexus (talk) 04:26, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and updated it using the official Marvel.com reference that @InfiniteNexus: provided. We wanted to wait at first to make sure it wasn't an error since the change was surprising. cc @SirDot:. Thanks. — Starforce¹³ 14:17, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

New Rockstars did a new re-analysis and one of the details Erik Voss pointed out was the broken watch at the beginning of the film, which when looked at carefully, says Tuesday, November 23. Disregarding the wrong day of the week (since that date is from 2021 IRL), this makes it obvious MoM takes place between when the final spell cast is in NWH and its epilogue at Christmas. So the Disney+ timeline is correct. --MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 20:43, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Far From Home on Disney+ timeline

Disney+ Japan has added Spider-Man: Far From Home to its timeline (after The Falcon and the Winter Soldier), here's an article from The Direct: https://thedirect.com/article/spider-man-far-from-home-mcu-timeline-disney AxGRvS (talk) 17:44, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Ignore it, since TFATWS is set 6 months after Endgame (in April 2024) while FFH is set eight months after Endgame (in June/July 2024). Both explicitly mention this within their respective media. Also Shang-Chi is pretty much known to take place around April given the setting it takes place in too. MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 21:48, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

For our purposes, it won't adjust our time line here. However, we can use the source for the Disney+ portion at the bottom of the "Codifying attempts" subsection. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 02:25, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

The Incredible Hulk on Disney+

I added that 'The Incredible Hulk' is available in Disney+ Japan but it's not included on the timeline, which I think it's notable for being the only Marvel Studios film to not be included on the D+ timeline. However, it was reverted. I would know if you think it's notable for adding it again. AxGRvS (talk) 14:50, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

I only saw The Direct mention it in their Far From Home article. If there is other coverage of it, then I'd say we could add it back, but I don't think it should be noted. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:27, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

MCU Timeline Diagram missing all non-Disney TV

While the MCU TV shows from ABC, Netflix, etc seem to be referenced in the body of the article, they are all missing from the diagram. I thought that it may just be showing movies, but it also includes Wandavision, Hawkeye, etc. Is there a reason AOS, Daredevil, and these other shows are excluded from the timeline? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheriffjt (talk • contribs) 03:31, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Only Marvel Studios projects are include. Marvel Studios has not indicated any of the Marvel Television projects are considered canon in their eyes. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:34, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Per the hatnote, the "diagram" focuses on Marvel Studios projects for simplicity. And also what Favre said. — SirDot (talk) 17:47, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Love and Thunder timeline

@Favre1fan93: Are we sure we can’t just take Ragnarok (which takes place in 2017) and add 8 years to that? Even when the Disney+ timeline adds LaT eventually it’ll still be vague as to which year it took place in. The reference of Thor and Jane breaking up in Ragnarok is probably a hint it occurred recently that year, which would set LaT in 2025. Normally I would take Taiti’s comments of being five years after Endgame but that was a mistranslation and doesn’t match Thor’s timeframe. So what do we do? MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 18:16, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

I think that would be WP:SYNTH, because we know they've broken up by Ragnarok, but it could have been anywhere between Age of Ultron and then, so the date can be flexible. We can wait to add it to the timeline, but in prose, that's the best we can say. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:21, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict)All sources I could find are all speculating on the Thor/Jane breakup timeframe, so some sources are saying 2025, some 2024, and some noting breaking up immediately after AoU would place L&T in December 2023. Taika Waititi’s comments of "4 years after Endgame" place the film in 2027. Let's wait until Disney+ clears it up. — SirDot (talk) 18:25, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

To reiterate my comments at Talk:Thor: Love and Thunder#2024, we cannot/should not bank on speculation by reliable sources. This information should have been removed from the timeline section long ago. InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:51, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

I think that if the speculation by RSes is based on more or less accurate info and is logical, we could use it. If we can see that it's illogical, then we clearly shouldn't. After all, WP:OR and WP:SYNTH is just for us editors, not for RSes, and according to SYNTH: "A and B, therefore, C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument concerning the topic of the article. —El Millo (talk) 06:04, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

@InfiniteNexus: a year, specifically the 2024 bit, isn't there anymore. I removed it. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:11, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware, and I thank you for removing it. But I was saying that we should be wary about relying on speculation from RS's for statements like these in the future, especially when the speculation isn't straightforward and obvious. For instance, if Thor had said "one year after Tony Stark died" and an RS concluded that the film was set in 2024, that would probably be logical. "Eight years since we broke up" is far more hazy and ambiguous. InfiniteNexus (talk) 16:26, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

"RS" in fan-centric media should really be treated differently between out-of-universe coverage and in-universe coverage. When they deal with in-universe topics they often rely on comic book material or just pure speculation. Even when a character says something on screen it shouldn't always be taken at face value. There are often times the character is more of a unreliable narrator. In the film for instance, we got Thor saying x years and Jane saying y years. Which one of them should we believe? The film makes it seem like Thor is more correct, but there really is no objectively clear date in that scene. This is why we should follow WP:OR and WP:SYNTH and in for timeline, follow official sources. Gonnym (talk) 17:34, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

In that particular case, the film is clear about him being right and her being wrong, since she's not sure and ambiguous about it and he's sure, unambiguous and detailed, plus it's the meaning of the joke that he still isn't over her. I repeat, whenever reliable sources speculate by connecting dots, essentially what would be WP:SYNTH if we did it, it's acceptable to use it. But, because it is still speculation, we can use our editorial discretion when it's clear their logic doesn't hold up, when they're taking stuff from the comics without justification, etc. —El Millo (talk) 23:00, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

TheWrap's speculation wasn't exactly illogical (it's totally plausible), but it was based on an assumption that was never confirmed (that they broke up in 2016). And to tie it back to Talk:Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness/Archive 1#Supreme Strange, sources speculated that zombie Strange and "zombie" Wanda were the same zombie Strange and zombie Wanda from What If...? simply based on their appearance. That all seemed very reasonable and possible, yet it wasn't. InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:13, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

The Batman shared universe in Cultural Impact

In Cultural Impact section, Sony's Spider-Man universe was added but not WB's The Batman shared universe.

It's mentioned clearly that The Batman is intended to launch a Batman shared universe, with two sequels planned and two spin-off television series in development.

So can we add The Batman universe inside WB section of cultural impact? Ashokkumar047 (talk) 04:31, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

We don't just list every shared universe (or planned / suggested shared universe), we are intentionally limiting the section to some key ones that were directly inspired by the MCU (with supporting critical commentary). - adamstom97 (talk) 07:04, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

I do believe we have a general DC attempt with the DCEU, which would cover that company. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:36, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Timeline - should one-shots be included?

The Timeline section is a bit cluttered and tough to read, particularly the timeline graphic. Should we consider updating the graphic to remove the One-Shots, as there are only 4 and this would make the graphic easier to read? ThanosDidSomeThingsWrong19 (talk) 18:47, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't think removing 4 things will help with readability. -- Zoo (talk) 18:54, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

The timeline is about as clear and uncluttered as you get, removing the One-Shots would have no impact on that. - adamstom97 (talk) 19:43, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

How about making the graphic bigger then? It's not the easiest thing to read despite how uncluttered it may be ThanosDidSomeThingsWrong19 (talk) 19:13, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

That is simply how the template is. Start a section at the template's talk page if that's an issue. — SirDot (talk) 19:17, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Remove Jane Foster from characters table?

According to the list indicator, it "includes characters who will appear or have appeared in at least three MCU films/series and received main billing credit in at least two franchises". Natalie Portman only received main billing in the Thor franchise, so I don't think she would be included on the table. AxGRvS (talk) 18:13, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I think receiving main billing on "What If... Thor Were an Only Child?" counts as "another franchise". —El Millo (talk) 18:30, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure if that's a good thing... because several characters received main billing in What If...?, so that would mean more characters have to be added to the table, such as Brock Rumlow (two Captain America films and What If...?, receiving main billing in all three installments) AxGRvS (talk) 01:35, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Well I was looking the What If...? episodes main casts, so, if we count that as "another franchise", the characters to be included in the table would be the following:

• • Rumlow: Main billing in Captain America 2 & 3 and What If...? (also appeared in Endgame)
  • Red Skull: Main billing in The First Avenger and What If...? (also appeared in Infinity War and Endgame)
  • Yondu: Main billing in Guardians of the Galaxy 1 & 2 and What If...?
  • The Collector: Main billing in Guardians 1, Infinity War and What If...?
  • Korath: Main billing in Guardians 1, Captain Marvel and What If...?
  • Christine Palmer: Main billing in Doctor Strange 1 & 2 and What If...?
  • Ancient One: Main billing in Doctor Strange & What If...? (also appeared in Endgame)
  • Christine Everhart: Main billing in What If...? & WHIH Newsfront (if we also count it as a franchise) + Iron Man 1 & 2
  • Kurt: Main billing in Ant-Man 1 & 2 and What If...?
  • Ramonda: Main billing in Black Panther 1 & 2 and What If...?
  • Klaue: Main billing in Black Panther and What If...? (also appeared in Age of Ultron)
  • Grandmaster: Main billing in Ragnarok and What If...? (also appeared in the Team Darryl short)
  • Korg: Main billing in What If...? and Love and Thunder (also appeared in Ragnarok and Endgame)
  • Batroc: Main billing in What If...? and The Falcon and the Winter Soldier (also appeared in Captain America: The Winter Soldier)
  • Thanos: Main billing in Avengers films and What If...?

I think those are many characters to include on the table. AxGRvS (talk) 01:58, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm going to play a trump card here and say that because Jane Foster became "Thor" in Thor: Love and Thunder, that made her a title character, which is a step above "main billing", so we don't even need to worry about that classification. BD2412 T 02:05, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

If we guide by title character, we should add other characters like Kamala Khan, Shang-Chi, Agatha Harkness, Ironheart, etc. AxGRvS (talk) 02:12, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

What if we guide by title character plus one appearance in another MCU franchise? Notably, Agatha Harkness and Ironheart have not aired yet, and though likely, are not necessarily a lock. Planned projects sometimes get cancelled (an Inhumans movie was cancelled, and the status of Armor Wars is presently unclear). It would not be unreasonable, actually, to add Kamala Khan and Shang-Chi. BD2412 T 02:49, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Then let's just remove Jane Foster. No need for making changes and let's just consider receiving main billing in one episode of a kind-of-anthology series not to count as main billing credit. I don't think it's wise to add this many characters, and it's not wise to take into account whether they're "title" characters or not. —El Millo (talk) 06:28, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree with removing Foster. AxGRvS (talk) 19:33, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm removing Foster if nobody is against it. AxGRvS

I'm against it, but I've already said my piece. BD2412 T 00:07, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Two weeks have passed and no one besides BD2412 T has objected to removing Foster from the character table. I'm going to do it. AxGRvS (talk) 00:11, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

What about Peter's To-Do List?

Peter's To-Do List isnt on the timeline thing? Inva1idWord (talk) 01:46, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Peter's To-Do List is just a deleted scene from Far from Home, not an independent piece of media. —El Millo (talk) 02:33, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Loki?

On the MCU Timeline, you have every single movie and show... almost every show? Where is Loki on the timeline? 2601:1C0:CD00:1C20:8F83:B611:DE86:E90 (talk) 02:06, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Loki's events occur outside the timeline. — SirDot (talk) 02:24, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

There's a note explaining this. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:15, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Wakanda Forever timeline placement

Here is a ref for the Wakanda Forever placement according to Nate Moore for when it's time to add it. -- Zoo (talk) 19:26, 2 November 2022 (UTC)