Talk:Luwian language

Revision

I have made certain changes to material added by user 192.76.7.207, which stated the opinions of one scholar (Ilya Yakubovich) as if they were accepted fact. Yakubovich 2010 is an important contribution to the field of Luwian and Hittite studies, and the views expressed in it certainly deserve mention in a Wikipedia article on Luwian language. However, as many of his claims directly contradict current scholarly opinion regarding the presence of Luwian speakers in western Anatolia, as well as the location of the land Luwiya (see e.g. Starke 1997; Hawkins 1998; Melchert 2003; Singer 2005; Hawkins 2009), they have no place being presented as reflecting a general consensus in contemporary scholarship (for example, Yakubovich 2010 has not even been properly reviewed in any academic journals yet). Should a consensus emerge in the scholarly community regarding Yakubovich’s views, that should certainly be reflected in the main body of the article, but until then the material in Yakubovich 2010 should be clearly presented as representing a minority opinion. If user 192.76.7.207 would care to create an account, rather than edit from an IP address, it might make clarifying these issues easier.User:Karabel--Karabel 08:10, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Comments

why does the article say that Luvian was spoken in Arzawa, which was in the far west, when the map shows the Luvian area as in the east?Bbpowell 22:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC){

Influence on Semitic?

Where is the evidence that Hittite and Luwian "moved" south to the Middle East and influenced Semitic tongues? Is this some sort of a confusion with Phillistines(Greeks) ?

• No evidence at all, it is clear that the author does not have a clue what (s)he is talking about. There were Neo-Hittite kingdoms in northern Syria during the first millennium BC using the Luwian language in inscriptions, but the presence of Luwians among the Sea people/Philistines are pure guesswork. Any linguistic influence on the Semitic tongues from Luwian is strictly confined to loan-words.--JFK 15:02, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Cut from the article

This is the highly disputed part of the article cut and pasted. Before a reference can be presented who these academic specialists are this hypothesis does not belong in the main article. It is certainly not the scholar Melchert in Anatolian languages nor his colleagues Meid, Neu Otten or Puhvel. The text:

Luwian (and Hittite) groups are now believed by most academic specialists to have moved south into Amurru, Aram Naharaim, Canaan and the Hejaz (modern Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, Jordan and northern Saudi Arabia) after ca. the 14th century BC, and to have had an influence on the various West Semitic languages that its speakers came into contact with (Amorite dialects and especially Hebrew). --JFK 23:30, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree, the Luwian-speaking movement from Lycia followed the South Anatolian coastline apparently after the Hittites, which is associated with the Sea Peoples activity, and they did get as far as Syria, but I never heard of them getting to Saudi Arabia...! Pulling out that OR was a good call... ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 01:08, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

It was George E. Mendenhall from the University of Michigan. He ascribed originally Luwian names to Midianite figures reported in the Old Testament, some of whom (Moses' father-in-law Jethro for example) were associated with the Hejaz. --Fire Star 04:16, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Boustrephedon, etc

Boustrephedon writing does not apply to Cuneiform Luwian, and so the discussion on it shouldn't go on in this article. I've moved that discussion (and the paragraph which sparked it) over to Hieroglyphic Luwian. Enjoy! - Zimriel 21:31, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Cuneiform Luwian and Hieroglyphic Luwian are language varieties which should be discussed at Luwian language; directionality and other features of the writing system should be discussed at Anatolian hieroglyph. Evertype 15:38, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Split "Luwians"

Propose splitting Luwian land and people from the language article. Categorystuff (talk) 16:37, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Who are you calling "Luwians"? Do you have such a great deal of material on "Luwians" that it would unbalance the present article? Why don't you simply begin by editing it in a section here and see how much you've got.--Wetman (talk) 07:38, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

In a way, what is the difference how much material is found on the Luvians? The two topics are logically distinct. Language articles are about the range, speakers, phonology etc of the language. The EB always splits the two. If we read about the English we aren't interested in the phonology of English and if we want to know something about English phonology we really don't care at all who is speaking it. It might be spoken in inner Mongolia (and probably is). So even if there is a small amount of material Luvians can well be a separate article. Redirecting Luvians to here blocks us from working on it. On the other hard no such article exists and is not going to exist unless someone does the work. At this point "splitting" means unredirecting "Luvians" and letting it be a red link. I'm in favor of that because it encourages someone to do the article. If I were writing an article on Luvians I would just unredirect the word and think nothing of it. There is nothing to split so far. Tempest in a teapot. If anyone is looking for encouragement, I say, go ahead, "split" it. First you write the article in Word - check it - make sure it has all the criteria for an article - then create a new article on Wikipedia and lastly take out the redirect. Make sure there are links in Luvians to Luvian and vice versa. By the way who ARE we calling Luvians is a moot point. There are quite a few Luvian theories.Dave (talk) 04:42, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Support split, Dave covered the reasons why. Imagine having Ancient Greece information within the Ancient Greek language article. Fuzzibloke (talk) 14:18, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Like Dave says: No split to support, just unredirect "Luvians", write the article, make sure to link both ways between here and there, and make redirects covering spelling variations (v ~ w) etc. Keinstein (talk) 23:06, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I support the split and/or unredirecting. A good resource for developing an article on the Luwian people would be H. Craig Melchert's 2003 book, The Luwians (Handbook of Oriental Studies) from Brill Academic Publishers, 2003. One site provides this synopsis: "A brief introduction sets the context and confronts the problem of defining "the Luwians". Following chapters describe their prehistory, history, writing and language, religion, and material culture." Another source to consider would be The Luwian population groups of Lycia and Cilicia Aspera during the Hellenistic period. by Houwink ten Cate, Ph. H. J. (Philo Hendrik Jan), published: Leiden, E.J. Brill. 1961. Either way, having a redirect of "Luwians" go to an article on linguistics of the language doesn't work. TeamZissou (talk) 00:36, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Support split, per → WP:SS. Krenakarore (talk) 11:39, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Article: Syro-Hittite states

Consideration should also be given to relevance and appropriate placement (inclusion/exclusion) of material in the article Syro-Hittite states, which deals with the Neo-Hittite period (post-1180 RCE and which links to the current article This may help to resolve some of the somewhat contentious points raised in the discussion above. Geoff Powers (talk) 17:35, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Sociolinguistics of the Luvian Language

I am now (1.18.2010) editing this article in the light of my newly appeared monograph "Sociolinguistics of the Luvian language" (Brill 2010), which is based upon my University of Chicago dissertation. I am trying to be careful to the previous material, rephrasing only those passages that appear to be superseded by the current state of research. If you have any questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to contact me at sogdiana@uchicago.edu —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.149.194.74 (talk) 04:15, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

There are a number of rules against writing your own monograph and using it to rewrite wikipedia articles, as well as against giving out your email. Your changes will need to be looked at carefully. Please take the time to learn something about our cornerstone policies and standards of conduct if you wish to contribute. Thanks, Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 13:36, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I just had a closer look at your changes, and it does certainly look like you have 'done your homework' and made accurate changes... but if there happen to be any challenges, you should be prepared to source your sources (ie the sources you used in writing your paper) rather than sourcing yourself directly, which violates COI and OR policy concerns. Cheers, Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 13:51, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

If the changes are good, it's neither a wp:COI vio, nor wp:OR; Brill 2010 being wp:V w/wp:AGF...

There are definitely rules against disclosing other people's email addresses, but lots of users put their email addy on their user page.—Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 05:56, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

The changes ref'd to Brill 2010 did indeed seem good, the only COI might be that they happened to be added by Brill 2010 herself. But agf, if anything from her were to be challenged, no doubt it would be no problem to discover what her sources were. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 13:09, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Luwian Gods and Goddesses

I wrote this mostly from the books of Bilge Umar...

At the beginning Apollo(Apollon), Artemis, Aphrodite, Hephaistos, etc. were NOT Greek gods and goddesses... because we know Ancient Greek language and the name of these gods are not Greek names! For example, the name "Artemis" does not mean anything in Greek language! They were Anatolian gods/goddesses that became Greek gods after 1200 BC. And Western Anatolia were Luwian lands before 1200 BC. Today we know that. (but in 1800s no one knew anything about the Luwians!)

now Some can say: "Well, but the Ancient Greeks didn't write anything about the Luwians. So how can we know that they were Luwian gods?" I say: Ancient Greeks (and the Romans) also didn't write anything about the Hittites! The Greeks didn't write anything about the Luwians because the Luwians were their enemies! After Anatolian people began to speak Greek, they forgot their own Luwian language! Their old gods(like Apollon, etc.)became Greek gods!

1)Artemis: Arta/Arda /Arte = "river" (in Luwian Language) , mis ="goddess"

see Arda (Maritsa) & Arda (Italy)

2)Apollon: Ap /Ab /Aba /Apa / Pa ="water" , ula ="small wood" , wana = "place", "temple of"(in Luwian)

3)Aphrodite: Ap /Ab /Aba /Apa ="water", Abra = "river" , uwa ="place", "temple", "having to do with it", Dite = "Goddess" (in Luwian)

4)Ada /Da = "mother", "mother goddess" (in Luwian)

Demeter: <Da-meter ("meter" also means "mother" in Greek)

Athena: <Athana (in Doric) < Adana <Ada-na -na ="place", "temple of" (in Luwian)

Danae: <Da-na (similar name like Athena!) Danae was not a goddess. She was the mother of Perseus.

5)Themis: Themis means "law of nature" in Greek but it can be like that:

<The(a)-mis Thea ="goddes" (in Greek) , mis ="goddess" (in Luwian)

6)Leto: <Lada-uwa (She was the mother of Artemis and Apollon) /Lada ="woman","goddess" ,uwa ="place", "temple of" (in Luwian)

7) Asta /Astra /Ista /Istra = "stream", "river" (in Luwian)

Danube = Istros (in Greek)

Hestia: <Asta!

Hephaestus(in Latin) < Hephaistos : <Apa-ista, Apa ="water" (in Luwian)

8)Maia: Maia was the mother of Hermes. < Ma-ia /Ma = "mother", ia ="earth" (in Luwian)

HEROES:

Paris (mythology)(Alexandros): < "Par-Ida" /Par = "pastor", "shepherd" , Ida = Mount Ida = "forest"

Paris Πάρῐς (nominative) , Paridos Πάρῐδος (genitive), Paridi Πάρῐδῐ (dative), Parida Πάρῐδᾰ (accusative)

Hector = Hektor: means "brother-in-law" (of Helen)

Hecuba = Hekabe: means "mother-in-law" (of Helen) , abe ="mother?"

Helen = Helene /Helena: "Strait" (this is "Dardanelles") <Ela-na Ela/Ila ="strait" ,-na = "having to do with" Ela-na = "the woman of the strait"

Ilium = Ilion (=Troy) <Il(a)-ion -ion = "place" (in Greek)

also Hellespont < Hellespontos that means: "Sea of Helle (mythology)" In fact, the name of this Helle came from "Ela" = "strait"

Helenos = Helenus: "Strait" (the male form of the same name!) <Ela-na

Priamus = Priamos: < Pria-uma = "the man in the castle" /Pria ="castle" uma ="human" ~ homo (in Latin/ the same root)

Cassandra = Kassandra: <Kas-Andra /kas = "temple" , andra = "priestess", "woman", "nun"

Pegasus = Pegasos : < Pega -Asu /Pege (in Greek) ="fount","source" < Pega ="fount" (in Luwian) <Pa-ka , pa ="water", ka ="place", asu = "horse" (in Luwian)

Leda (mythology): <Lada ="woman" (similar name like Leto <Lada-uwa! See above) Böri (talk) 13:22, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Aeneas = Aineias(in Greek) < Ai(a)-(wa)na / Ai = "Earth Goddess" (Aphrodite / Venus), -na = "place" Böri (talk) 11:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

"Remarks on the proposed etymologies"

The proposed etymologies in Luwian are very uncertain.

• 1) It is possible that Artemis is derived from Luwian “Ardala” , but it is also possible that it is derived from “artamos”, (fighter).
• 2) Apollon is not related with the water. His name is probably derived from the Anatolian “Aplu”.
• 3) Aphrodite . The proposed etymology is possible, but does “Dite” and “mis” both mean godess in Luwian?
• 4) Demeter (Da-mater). It is very uncertain to combine words from two languages ( Luwian Ada/da : mother with IE “mater”). There is not any satisfactory etymology.

“da” may mean water (Da-nu) or earth in the Doric dialect. Demeter is Ge (Gaia).

• 5) Athena. ( A-ta-na in Mycenaean Greek). The name is Pre-Greek. A proposed etymology is ‘’Ata-ana”, (ada: mother , ana (innana, anat) : war goddess) . Athena was a war goddess, but she was not addressed “mother”.
• 6) Hephaestus (in Latin) . (i-pa-i-ti-jo - Dativ- ,in Mycenean Greek). He was never related with water. Compare pa-i-to: the city Phaistos.
• 7) Leto . The proposed etymology is possible.
• 8) Maia. It is possible “mother earth” in Lwvian, but why Gaia ( earth in Greek, ma-ka  : mother earth ,in Mycenean Greek?)
• 9) Themis. It is very uncertain to combine words from two languages

jest 12:08, 20 July 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jestmoon (talk • contribs)

The OP in 2010 above was engaging in what we call WP:OR. The response should be simply to point them to that page and the requirement that all such etymological information or hypothesizing must be WP:CITE-able. If it appears on a talk-page like this, it violates WP:FORUM and can even be rmoved on that basis. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 13:16, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Non-Luwian Gods and Goddesses

Zeus, Poseidon, Hermes, Hades, Ares, Ouranos, Hera Böri (talk) 13:27, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

"Luwian" place names in Italy

1)Adranon > Adrano Adra = name of a god, see Adranus

2)Arda River: Arda (Italy) It is a right tributary of the Po River. arda = "river"(in Luwian) see also Arda (Maritsa) & Arte- part of Artemis ...

Tartaros < Darda-(u)ra /ura= "big", "great"(in Luwian) , arda part of Darda = "river"(in Luwian), Da = Goddess

3)Ardea (RM) arda = "river"(in Luwian)

4)Apulia > Puglia(in Italian) ap = "water"

5)Po (river)= Padus(Latin) /pa = "water", pada = "(having) water" (In fact, ap, ab, apa, aba, pa, ba; all of theam = "water")

6)Padua = Padova(Italian) < Pad(a)-uwa /pada = "water", uwa = "place" Patavium(in Latin)

7)Italy < Italia /Ida = "forest", -la= "little"(diminutive) see also Ithaca < Ithakē(in Greek) & Mount Ida

8)Tiber River= Tiberis(in Latin) = Tevere(in Italian) /ibra = "river" (in Luwian)

9)Anatolian God Attis, Atys (king), king of Alba Longa & Atys son of Croesus have the same name!

10)Tarhun= Tarchon, see also Tarquinius & Tarquinii

11)Aeneas < Aineias < Ai(a)-(wa)na Aia = "Earth Goddess"(Aphrodite / Venus), wana, -na = "place"

12)Mutina > Modena /mut = "valley"(in Luwian), -ina = "place" see also Mut in Mersin Province of Turkey: http://tr.wiki.x.io/wiki/Dosya:Mersin_location_districts.svg

13)Akragas > Agrigentum > Agrigento /akra = "mountain", "hill"(in Luwian)

14)Arno < Arnus arna = "river"(in Luwian)

15) Capua = Kapa-uwa

16) Catania < Catana(in Latin) <Katanē(in Greek)

17) Cumae < Kymai There are also Kymai in Turkey & Kymai in Greece...

18) Eneti > Adriatic Veneti

19) Elba < Ilva(in Latin) Il(a)-uwa Ila = "strait", uwa = "place"

20) Ischia <Ska? ska = "island"(in Luwian)

21) Sicily < Sikelia(in Greek) ska= "island"(in Luwian) also see Sicani & Sicels

22)Scylla <ska = "island"

23) Ivrea = Eporedia(in Latin) from Ibra = "river"(in Luwian) ?

24) Labrys < labar = "axe" see also Labraunda

25) Mantova(in Italian) = Mantua

26) Paistos > Paestum = Poseidonia (another name) /pa = "water", ista = "stream"

27) Heraclea Minoa in Sicily Minoa < Minuwa

28) Cortona

29) Abano Terme Ab = "water" see also Abana, Kastamonu & Abana River (in Syria!)

30) Elymians from that article: The precise origins of the Elymians are unknown, though it has been suggested (based on recent archeological finds) that they may have been migrants from Anatolia to Sicily. /ela = "strait", uma = "people"

other names: Otranto < Hydruntum, Taranto < Tarentum < Taras, Nora, Italy, Tyrsenians, Bergamo < Bergomum, Pesaro < Peisaura, Pisa? Böri (talk) 09:48, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Is there a secondary source for all this? I'm not quite convinced by the attempt to declare the names of Greek colonies "Luwian", much less so for the names without an obvious Greek connection. Huon (talk) 12:56, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

First of all, they are not Greek names! We know Ancient Greek language... These place names don't mean anything in Greek! Some of them became Greek colonies because the Luwian people became Greeks after the Greek invasions...

also

Adria = Atria = Hatria from that article: The first settlements on the area are of Venetic origin, on the 12-9th century BC; at that time the mainstream of the Po, the Adria channel, flowed into the sea by this area.

& Adriatic Sea Böri (talk) 13:09, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Short answer: There are no secondary sources? Then this stuff would be unsuitable for inclusion in Wikipedia, per WP:NOR. Besides, claiming that places like Tarentum or Heraclea Minoa weren't Greek colonies seems far-fetched. Huon (talk) 13:18, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Etymologies of these names are the sources! Of course, Tarentum and Heraclea Minoa were Greek colonies... but when they became the Greek colonies? In 1200s BC, were they Greek colonies? Every place name has a meaning. We know Ancient Greek language & these place names don't mean anything in Greek... so there were different people living in that areas(before the Greeks). There are Turkish sources about what I wrote on here, but there are no English translations of that books yet...Böri (talk) 13:44, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm no expert on ancient history, but "Greek colony" implies that they didn't exist at all before they were founded (and named) by Greeks. The Tarentum article explicitly states that the town was founded by Spartan settlers, who named it after an ancient hero, Taras. That's probably a Spartan hero, not a local one. Similarly Heraclea Minoa was founded as an outpost of another Greek town. But the more important question is what this list is supposed to achieve. You added links to it to various talk pages. What do you propose?

By the way, I'm aware of the Aeneid's claims, and I am also aware that Virgil's version was written as a propaganda piece to provide some divine underpinnings to Augustus' newly created Empire. I also once read a version of the Edda where the Norse gods claimed descent from Troy - I wouldn't take that as much more mythological than Virgil's claims of Trojan descent. Shall I claim that Uppsala's etymology is based on uwa-ila, the place on the straits? Wasn't there also a British myth where Trojan refugees settled Britain? Take Bath, for example - certainly a name inspiered by Luwian ba = "water", isn't it? No, I'm not being serious here. Huon (talk) 10:58, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

1)Virgil's version of Aeneid was a propaganda but it had some facts...What about Magna Mater? The Romans took this goddess from Anatolia in 210 BC (at that time, Anatolia was not a part of The Roman Republic)...There was a connection between Anatolia & Rome, and The Romans knew that. 2)Minoa part of the name Heraclea Minoa, came from the Minoan civilization and they were not the Greeks! But after the Greek invasion, the people of Minoa (of Sicily) became the Greeks and they forgot their past (and their own language)... The Greeks named there Heraclea (land of Herakles = Hercules). 3) What about Patara (of Lycia), Padova & Padus = Po River They have the same name! Who gave these names to that places? I can write thousands of similar names from Anatolia & Greece... 4)For Tarentum(Taras), the Greeks conquered this land, the native people were their enemies...so the Greeks told us a story about a hero called Taras... but in fact, there was no a hero like that! The root of the name Taras is Tarant- , in nom. it became Tarant-s > Taras (& in Latin, Tarentum), that is a -nth, -nt, -nd name! see Pre-Greek substrate article... 5) Ab means water in Persian language...(another Indo-European language which has the same root) Böri (talk) 11:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Before we delve deeper into the details of ancient history and/or etymology, could you please state your purpose? What's this all about? Huon (talk) 13:23, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Made up etymologies: Yet another attempt at undermining the legitimacy of the Greek language in Anatolia (it’s pre-Greek “pelasgian” adstratum and PIE heritage combined) by none other than a nationalistic rant. A whimsical, non-peer reviewed and completely bogus attempt, pulled out of the preverbial abyss (is this perchance a Turkish word (sic) from a-buz), though not convincing to linguists at all. So Luwian has “mis”, “dite” and “ada/da” as all meaning goddess? I though the Albanians claimed “dite” to mean “day” and “afer” meaning next to… a better folk etymology given Aphrodite being equated with Venus, aka morning star. Yet even this etymology with better credibility is proven wrong, given Albanian inscriptions, which only started to be produced in the 15thC A.D. and it being a neologism and quite an anachronistic phrase... I don’t think it actually is grammatically correct either in Albanian, given Venus’ name is completely different in Albanian’s linguistic history (read here “venusin”). The goddess’ name is better linked to “aphros” = foam and “diaita” = to live; that’s one theory but better than the one suggested. The reason here is that it was attested in the writings of the ancients, but these other attempts here are mere conjecture of forms that are not even Luwian. The attempts here are nothing more than that. I’ve not seen any inscription or testimony to the contrary that denies Demeter her Hellenic linguistic heritage, especially any coming from the Archaeological recordings of the Hittite (sic) Luwian language. Damater is inherently Greek given that Doric had “da” for “ge/gaia” and “mater” for mother, - a befitting name for a goddess of the earth (given that she was the goddess of the fruits of the earth). As for Danae her name is from the word to scorch/parch/dry (see Liddell and Scott for “to danos”), given that they were a tanned people, befitting description I would say (read here as, the sun-scorched woman actually). You may notice that both “danos” and “da” are etymologically linked to mean the scorched earth (as by the beating sun of summer). As for Artemis, well her name is well suited to the verb “arteomai” = I am prepared, yet another befitting name for the “huntress, ever ready and swift-footed”. As for Apollo, I think the section in the wiki article is sufficient in it’s etymological investigation. I tend to agree though, that the well established link between Luwian Appaliunas (father lion or father light (spurious translation, given the difficulty in compound constructs as these)) is a good one, but there are also equally valid ones in Greek for his name (see apellazo and apollumi for eg.). As for Hestia (that name clearly means “hearth” in Greek, the Luwian (sic) words determining her name, being made up here. Ad infinitum I can pick out all the ones that have been listed and give you the etymologies, but anyone with a knowledge of PIE linguistics and ancient Greek would be able to ascertain those meanings quite clearly. My favourite folk etymology is kassandra = fr. Folk-etymological Luwian (kas = temple and andra = priestess/nun). Laughable and quite simply a joke. Considering how Greek the compound is in form (“kekasmai” = to shine and “aner” = man, genitive “andros”; shining upon/amongst man/men), the name’s origin is undeniable. Note that “kass-“ is also applied to “Kassiopeia” (oh no it’s from Luwian (sic) “Kas” = temple, “op” (hop, hop) (fr. Turkish, the precursor of Luwian(?)) and the ending “-ia” = the temple place where people have a dance”, and ofcourse its Greek version being ignored (Shining eyes/face). (sarcasm has a place in this discussion, as I cannot believe we have to entertain such ludicrous claims or entreat with such people). And for goodness sakes, Aenaeas is masculine, what’s that got to do with yet another unattested form of “goddess and earth” in your distorted view of Luwian? Maybe you need to come back to “earth” (as per your etymology for this last name) and stop dreaming of something that is not there. Perhaps when you seriously study ancient Luwian texts, then and only then can you have authority to make claims such as you have here, otherwise refrain. Rad Adam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.250.254.142 (talk) 00:35, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Aenaeas is masculine, what’s that got to do with yet another unattested form of “goddess and earth” in your distorted view of Luwian?: Aineias / Aeneas was the son of Aphrodite! (They are not Greek names! Show the Greek roots then! I know Ancient Greek.) Böri (talk) 10:09, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

The fact that it's "Aineas" is proof enough, given the diphthong, "AI". Whether it was Greek in origin or not, it is so imbued in Greek that NO OTHER living or extinct language can lay claim to it. Actually "Aineas" has a root in the verb "Aineo" = "I speak in praise of" (Liddle and Scott 1889 ed. p.21). The word is also in the nominal sense "aine" = "praise". Actually the wikipedia article already states that vid. http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Aeneas

Please re-learn ancient Greek and its various dialects before making wild claims. Also, if you did know ancient Greek it would be evident but I very much doubt you know more than English or Turkish.

I know Ancient Greek very well. Aineias was not a Greek! (He was a Trojan hero)So his name was not a Greek name! Böri (talk) 07:48, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Does either of you have reliable sources to back up his position? Huon (talk) 11:46, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Aineas or Aineias (depending on which Greek you prefer, as you seem to hop from Attic to Epihoric or Epic/Ionic spellings) was a hero who was named aptly by the Mycenaean Greek bards of whom Homer had learned his poems from to make his final composition, is a Greek name applied by Greek bards to a hero (fictitious or otherwise). You are anachronistically applying what has never been attested... A Luwian inscription, tablet, epic poetry linking the name Aineas/Aineias with the tale of the Trojan war and to the Trojan hero. The point you are making is both unscholarly and ridiculous. The proof is in the writing i.e the Homeric epic on the Trojan War (the Iliad), whereby the traditions of the bards was to utilize names with meaning to help them remember character traits etc. The countless epithets attest to the meanings of most names in there that I can think of except for the name Priam which is potentially Luwian/Lydian. However, my Liddle and Scott dictionary (1889 ed.) has Priam's name coming from one of two words (either pro, with a generic term meaning roughly chief or king) or the verb "priamai" = to have a thing sold/purchased by ransom. The later etymology is actually contested by ancient lexicographers and the play on Priam's name is thus interwoven into the story of the Iliad - if you actually want to know he was called Podarces (yes a Greek name "gods forbid!") first and then "ransomed" by Heracles, he changed his name to Priam (the ransomed one). I do not doubt that there could exist a Luwian name as attested in the article of Priam coming from Priimuua = exceptionally courageous... but that the fact remains that there are two highly reliable sources of Priam's name in Greek which are far stronger arguments. This goes for the name Aineas too.

In addition to that, the name Hector is also Greek yet this was a Trojan prince, and the name means "holding fast" as a name to help the oral poets remember his character traits when fighting with a sword. Your argument that he was a Trojan hero therefore his name is not Greek is laughable and the point you make is non sequitur! The fact that both Luwian and Greek was/is IE, make the languages' shared history and vocabulary inextricably linked. Your country's policies imbue a culture of re-writing history to suit the people's needs and do away with anything remotely Greek. I find it appauling personally. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.165.34.95 (talk) 12:23, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Hector is not a Greek name! (If it is a Greek name, then prove it!)You said it means:"holding fast", which Greek roots? & Before 1200 BC (= Trojan War was in 1184 BC), there were no Greeks in Anatolia (except Miletos/Milawanda). so Trojan names were not Greek names!(and it's not about my country's policies...& what about the policies of Greece? Ancient Greece, The Roman Empire & The Byzantine Empire, they say they were all Greeks! Is it true? This is a Pan-Hellenic view!) Böri (talk) 06:24, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

So none of you has reliable sources. In that case, Wikipedia is not the place for this discussion. Huon (talk) 08:54, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

The Greek root is "Hekt+or" (the 0 = omega), the root is ultimately from εχω (echo) meaning "to hold, to possess".. You obviously don't speak Ancient Greek - given its sound rules and sandhi rules which are unlike your native altaic word roots that agglutinate, the Greek forms are inflectional and hence derivational. This is reference enough http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=hector as it is scholarly accredited. Alternatively, you could view it on Perseus project. So please refrain from bogus etymologies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.220.11.186 (talk) 12:11, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

All of my etymologies are correct: http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/thra.htm from the Thracian language: achel- ‘water (noun), water (adj.)’ [Lith. H Akele., Phryg. akala ‘water’]. /apa, aphus ‘water, river; a spring’ [Old-Pruss. ape ‘river’, apus ‘spring’, Old-Ind. ap- ‘water’]. / ars- ‘to flow; current, river’ [Old-Pruss. RN Arsio, Arse, Old-Ind. árs,ati ‘to flow’, Hitt. arš- ‘the same’]. /arta(s), arda(s) ‘current. river’ [Old-Ind. árdati ‘to flow’, Greek ardó ‘to bedew’]. / bria ‘town’ (Strab.; Steph. Byz. under the word of Messembria). Both authors state the word was Thracian. It is often found as a second component of Thracian settlement names, for example: Messembria, Poltymbria, Sélymbria, Skedabria, etc. The Thracian ‘bria’ is related to the Toch. A ri, B riye ‘town (a refuge on a hill)’ – from the IE *wrijá. The Thracian language was also an Indo-European language... So it had the same roots... Maybe they took some of these words from the Luwian language! Have you seen them? Böri (talk) 09:25, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

The etymologies you are quoting have nothing to do with Aineas or Hektor or ANY of the other names as per the Iliad or Odyssey for that matter. This page is NOT a source and DOES NOT claim the names of the Trojan heroes as coming from any of those etymologies. The point is moot as per Huon. End of discussion. You must now concede on the names of Aeneas and Hektor given my referenced source, as well as the source by Liddle and Scott. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.165.17.227 (talk) 12:48, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Your sources are wrong! (even Perseus!) The Trojans were not Greeks! Read it: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Trojan_language#Luwian_theory Böri (talk) 13:43, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Please write on my "talk page" Böri (talk) 08:58, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

The IP might want to have a look at WP:NPA - behaviour such as its last rant is unacceptable. I also have to note that according to Hans von Kamptz' Homerische Personennamen (Göttingen 1982), pp. 380-382, Aeneas actually isn't Greek - and our Aeneas article provides not a single modern reference. That article could probably do with some cleanup. Huon (talk) 10:13, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Duely noted. Hektor however is. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.217.68.94 (talk) 11:27, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I've read what von Kamptz has to say.

• He agrees with the etymology given for Hector by the Perseus source, but notes a competing theory according to which the name might be pre-greek, possibly Phrygian.
• He explicitly rejects the interpretation of Aineias we cite in that article (according to von Kamptz that's an ancient Greek interpretation), instead arguing for a Thracian origin, citing several similar Tracian place names as evidence.
• For Paris and Priamos, he seems to argue that the names may be Illyrian, which doesn't make any sense. For example, he uses the version of Priamos' name used on Lesbos as evidence, and Lesbos isn't close to anything I'd call Illyria either geographically or linguistically. Either I misinterpret him severely, or he uses a meaning of "illyr." that I don't know. He might mean the Tyrsenian languages. However, the names probably are not of Greek origin.
• There's a major caveat. Von Kamptz' book is old, much older than its publication date suggests: It's an almost unchanged reprint of von Kamptz' dissertation from the 1950s. In the foreword he acknowledges that incorporating the newer scholarship (presumably including much of the scholarship on Luwian, which von Kamptz doesn't mention at all) would have been a major task.

In summary, I don't think Homeric personal names in general can be used as evidence for the language of Troy either way, and von Kamptz in particular seems to argue for origins other than Luwian. Huon (talk) 17:54, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Böri did not cite any references for his list of etymologies ("Etymologies of these names are the sources!" indeed), so there is really nothing to discuss. Böri, please stop wasting people's time. Feel free to cite scholarly references to back up your beliefs, but unless you can do that please refrain from editing Wikipedia talkpages.

Many Greek personal names have unknown etymologies. It has been fashionable to say any unknown etymology is "pre-Greek" or "Pelasgian", to the point where this is really just saying it unknown. In many of these cases, a credible Greek etymology has been found after all. In other cases, the etymology is genuinely unknown, and speculation is possible, but please make it referenced speculation.

Read the Aphrodite article for an example. Aphrodite is a good example of a name where all sorts of mutually exclusive non-Greek etymologies have been thrown around, even though a purely Greek etymology is possible without any problems. The solution is just to list the various suggestions, with references, roughly in order of their credibility. --dab (𒁳) 15:59, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

on Google, you can find this: The hypothesis that, after the crisis years, some of the Luwians settled in today’s Italy can be substantiated by archaeological finds. Böri (talk) 13:26, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Lycian language

"Their language, Lycian, was an Indo-European language, one in the Luwian subgroup of Anatolian languages." (from Lycian language ) / I want to show this: hebeli- (a river) [IE *Hap- 'a river, water', Hittite ap- 'water'] (from: http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/glossary/lyci.html) /The Luwians were the ancestors the Lycian people. Böri (talk) 12:53, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

What exactly do you propose? Adding a section on daughter languages of Luwian to the article? That might be a good idea, though Lycian is already mentioned. Adding the etymology of specific Lycian words? I don't see how that improves the article. (As an aside, Wikipedia itself is not a reliable source.) Huon (talk) 17:27, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Updates

This is fast-moving field and there have been some changes. The article was not too good to begin with so I am doing some rewrites. I will address the reference problem. It is such an unnecessarily huge list it will take a while to work through it. But, even if many are not going to be used, it still can serve as a bibliography.Dave (talk) 12:57, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

External links modified

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Interlinear text

@TheLateDentarthurdent: I suggest you use Template:Interlinear to format the interlinear gloss -- that will make it a lot clearer. I'm afraid that I don't know where to put the word breaks. Also, what does the vertical bar (|) mean in the gloss? --Macrakis (talk) 18:31, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Formatting issues

It looks like Template:Script/Anatolian Hieroglyphs is broken, leading to formatting issues in the Syntax section of the article. I suggest to remove the broken text. Alternatively, one could use [1] to instead add the text as an image. Renerpho (talk) 22:04, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I am using a Windows desktop PC, with the classic (Vector legacy 2010) Wikipedia skin. The issue appears to be browser-independent (I tried several). Renerpho (talk) 22:10, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

So this is what I'm seeing:

The text looks fine to me, but I'm not well-versed in the subject. Is it supposed to look differently? KLITE789 (talk) 09:41, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Here's what it looks like to me:

This is on Firefox. On Google Chrome and Microsoft Edge, it looks similar, but the white boxes are blank (no text inside). What system and browser are you using? Renerpho (talk) 19:34, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

additional sources

https://www.winter-verlag.de/de/assets/download/in04501cee412818269abddcb57e0efcbdd/9783825379537/9783825379537.pdf https://academic.oup.com/edited-volume/42051/chapter/355821079 100.15.117.34 (talk) 15:29, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Merge proposal

Given that Cuneiform Luwian and Hieroglyphic Luwian were merely variants of the same language as convincingly argued in Mouton & Yakubovich (2021) Where did one speak luwili? Geographic and linguistic diversity of Luwian cuneiform texts, following Yakubovich (2010) Sociolinguistics of the Luvian Language, I propose that the page Hieroglyphic Luwian should be merged into the page Luwian language. Antiquistik (talk) 21:24, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I would say agreed, with the caveat that 1) the Hieroglyphic Luwian article needs some updating as it is and 2) the Luwian Language article while ok in general has more soft spots than one would like ie lot of something is thought to be this or that. If that is the current state of knowledge then never mind on that. :-) Note - I see there is a "Luwian language hieroglyphs" redirect. Anyway, I would say Be Bold and do it.Ploversegg (talk) 13:39, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

  Y Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 16:58, 9 November 2024 (UTC)