Talk:Lumiere (database)

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EurAVObservatory (talk · contribs)

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Requested move 26 February 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Lumiere (database). There doesn't seem to be consensus that the grave/accent is appropriate here. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 21:09, 5 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

LUMIERE → Lumiere (website) – Per MOS:TM, MOS:CAPS, MOS:ACRONYM, MOS:TITLES. This is not an acronym, it's "marketing capitals", exactly like "SONY" for Sony. We consistently move "fakeronyms" to lower case (I was tempted to speedy this at WP:RM/TR, but yet another in the long line of hundreds of such long-form RMs isn't going to hurt anything). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 18:22, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. — AjaxSmack 12:04, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Move to Lumière (database) per WP:FRMOS and not sure that this is really a website other than that it is hosted online. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:36, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't see any evidence of an accent being used by the actual project. PC78 (talk) 16:26, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom, looks pretty straightforward to me. PC78 (talk) 16:26, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support sensible move, though I like Lumiere (database) (without the accent) better than the (website) disambiguation. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 16:58, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@PC78: @Erik: "La base Lumière fournit une compilation systématique des données." The move must use WP:FRMOS; there's no place for stripped-French on en.wp. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:52, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

La Cinémathèque française webpage of web sources got it wrong. Pyxis Solitary yak 13:58, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm inclined to agree. The actual Lumiere website does not use an accent in either English or French language and it is not our place to add one. PC78 (talk) 16:19, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@PC78: @Pyxis Solitary: do you have any evidence for the claim that the only source with the name in small type got the accent wrong? Can you find any sources that say "La base de données Lumiere" with no è? Because based on the two above comments it appears that you are referring to a CAPS stylism, which once we've moved beyond we have to spell the name correctly, not invent a "Lumiere" (sic) spelling with no sources. Please see WP:CAPS and WP:FRMOS In ictu oculi (talk) 08:13, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Most sources appear to use all caps; those that don't are a mix of accent and no accent. Here's a couple of sources that don't use an accent: [1], [2]. PC78 (talk) 08:26, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

LUMIERE mentioned/referenced sans accent and in both styles (caps & lowercase): 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Pyxis Solitary yak 10:19, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

PC78, I'm asking for French sources. These two wepages are Unicode disabled English sources not fit for purpose, please see WP:RS as what counts for reliable sourcing. WP:FRMOS is the established rule on en.wp, we're not going to make a mispelling in just one article because two English websites which don't have full fonts don't have full fonts. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:40, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's a database that reports on ticket sales in the European Union. It includes Great Britain. Its search function accepts queries and responds in three languages: English, French and German. LUMIERE is based in France, but it is a project of the European Commission. Therefore, sources about it can be in any and all languages of the European Union. Pyxis Solitary yak 10:19, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

But stripped ASCII-24 French isn't a language. This is French, in Strasbourg and is covered by WP:FRMOS. Any move to Frenglish is ridiculous. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:58, 2 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The European Commission and the European Audiovisual Observatory were aware when the name for the database was chosen that it was stylized without a grave accent. WP:FRMOS cannot change the official name of an organization. In fact, WP:FRMOS > Names of organisations and institutions states: "Subject to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Trademarks and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (companies), names of organisations and institutions (e.g. orchestras, musical ensembles and groups, concert halls, festivals, schools, etc.) should follow official usage (i.e. the spelling, punctuation, etc. used by the organisation's own publications – always check whether the organisation has English-language publications, and if so what name is used in these). In the case of non-English names, we use official English versions if and when they have been established by the organisation itself."
I suggest you put the bandwagon to rest and review a few publications by the Observatoire européen de l'audiovisuel, for example: "General update of Observatory reports and activities as of 10 October 2018" or "Fiction film financing in Europe: A sample analysis of films released in 2016". The precise name you will find in them is "LUMIERE". Pyxis Solitary yak 09:43, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@In ictu oculi: You didn't ask for a French source, nor do we need one. Please point me to the part of WP:RS you feel is relevant. PC78 (talk) 11:22, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The part of WP:RS that is relevant to inventing a Frenglish name for a French database is WP:CONTEXTMATTERS namely Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content. You seem to want to present the "British/American name" of a French database with a Frenglish name despite having been shown than French name from the French database is a French word. You haven't presented any French source for the Frenglish name. And that kind of nonsense is exactly what WP:FRMOS exists to prevent. If you don't agree with WP:FRMOS you should launch and RFC for a wholesale change to 100,000s of articles covered by it. Not present English html without full fonts. English html without full fonts for French words exists for every France article name and subject. 07:24, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Well I'd dispute the notion that it's a French website for a start. It's part of the Council of Europe which is an international institution for which English is an official language. Those English language sources linked above are therefore perfectly fine. PC78 (talk) 11:47, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support only addition of "website" to page title. I'm not keen on friggin' around with how an organization or company has chosen to distinguish the moniker of its own product. l'Observatoire européen de l'audiovisuel identifies its database with capital letters. If you view the site in French, it states: "La base LUMIERE fournit une compilation systématique des données disponibles sur les entrées réalisées par les films distribués en salles en Europe depuis 1996." 1. No accent. 2. In caps. Pyxis Solitary yak 10:21, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Rightly or wrongly "frigging" with organisations' STYLISMS is en.wp policy and practice; see MOS:TM, MOS:CAPS, MOS:ACRONYM, MOS:TITLES as listed in the nom by SMcCandlish. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:15, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support strongly per MOS:TM MOS:CAPS and WP:ALLCAPS, yet another disruptive stylism. (website) seems sufficient to me, but if the consensus is (database), then it works too. Lazz _R 21:21, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support Lumiere (database), but oppose (website), which is less accurate. Dropping the caps is fine (e.g. 1). Neodop (talk) 00:05, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Nom comment: I'm fine with Lumiere (database). I left the diacritic out because I could not find any evidence that the organization (or RS) regularly use it. I don't know why. I would surmise it's for the same reason that trademarks and signage in English so often drop commas – marketing and logo-design people are hostile to elements they think they can do without. But that's just my guess. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 11:24, 5 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.