Talk:List of titles and honours of Queen Sofía of Spain

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Dame?

Moved from Talk:Geraldo Perez

– Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:13, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There is no such rank of ‘Dame’ of the Order of the Golden Fleece, there never has been one, ever, recipients of the order are ‘Knight’ only, regardless of their sex, otherwise the Boletín Oficial del Estado would have included ‘Dama’, if you believe so, can you provide at least one official source which describes this rank in the order? 194.155.93.24 (talk) 21:20, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Boletin didn't say "caballero" either, just that she got the collar and insignia. Dama become the female version of the title when the first woman entered the order. Geraldo Perez (talk) 21:25, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

See es:Anexo:Títulos, honores y nombramientos de Sofía de Grecia as well. I trust the Spanish version of the article got the wording correct. I'd have no issue removing the honorific title to the order as it isn't in the reference. Geraldo Perez (talk) 21:34, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Also see es:Orden del Toisón de Oro#Caballeros y damas actuales en España specifically entry 5. Geraldo Perez (talk) 21:40, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

As a Spanish translation point, "Caballero" most commonly means "Gentleman" and "Dama" most commonly means "Lady". Neither word is used in the reference for the award but "Knight" and "Dame" are English language conventions used for awards of this type. Geraldo Perez (talk) 17:30, 12 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Dame does not exist in the Order, in the same way Dame does not exist in many other orders like the order of the elephant, the order of the garter, these single graded and single ranked orders only consist of Knight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.71.59.60 (talk) 14:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Of course Dama exists for the women of the order as shown above. That the order has a single grade doesn't in any way imply that women get the same title for that single grade as do the men in the order. This is for Spain, what other countries do doesn't set the social conventions for Spain. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Is there one single official source which explicitly mentions ‘Dame’ within this order? Just a single official source is what we would need — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.71.59.60 (talk) 13:13, 20 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

There is no official source anywhere that refers to any female member of this order (or any Spanish order) as a "Caballero". Specifically the official source used in this article does not do that. Basically onus is on you to provide a reference that goes against the sources in the article. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:31, 20 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Why would the onus be on me for providing a source when YOU are the one claiming there is the rank of Dame in this order when infact there isn’t, all recipients of the order of the Golden Fleece are Knights, that is the only rank which exist, if you’re fantasising about the rank of Dame, as you’ve mentioned about ‘onus’, that is on you as you’re the one making the claim, not me — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.71.59.60 (talk) 20:06, 20 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

And the women are called Dama per Spanish culture and language. There is one rank with gendered titles for men and women. Find one source where women are referred to as Caballeros. Source in this article doesn't have it and your insistence on adding it against sources is disruptive. Geraldo Perez (talk) 21:34, 20 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Source? Provide one single source that the rank of ‘Dame’ even exists in the order, just one… — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.71.59.60 (talk) 21:40, 20 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It is not a rank, the rank is collar, it is the title women use and are referred to as. Provide a reference that woman are called caballero in the order as you insist on doing for this article against sourcing. Geraldo Perez (talk) 22:05, 20 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]