Talk:Last Generation Theology/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Condense, Cleanup, and Cite Sources

I think this article is useful and helpful, but some work needs to be done to consolidate the discussion on doctrine and general cleanup. A lot of the sections on doctrine are POV. Extensive quotes from Ellen White, the Bible, etc to "prove" LGT are not helpful here. Cite sources which contain these quotes and studies, and generally summarize what are the distinctive attributes of LGT that set it appart from mainstream Seventh-day Adventist teaching. Also, when referring to the teachings of Last Generation Theology, say so, don't use vague POV phrases like "Early Adventists, as well as some Last Generation Theology modern Adventists" Databases (talk) 17:13, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

That clarifies who it is, but will add sources and work to make it clearer and to rewrite weasal words...Simbagraphix (talk) 17:42, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, @Simbagraphix. Is there a reason you reverted by edits on the intro? I guess we should discuss here first before editing. That was my bad.

@Simbagraphix, the weasel words are still there in many cases--you only removed the flag or changed the word. To say "it is said" is the same as "some say." Databases (talk) 18:39, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

I would also like to suggest that the introduction include a more specific summary of the distinctive LGT beliefs, as outlined by Andreason, Kirkpatrick, etc, and less trying to "prove" that LGT is true Adventist doctrine (that should be saved for cited articles outside wikipedia). The distinction isn't so much that there will "be" a remnant (virtually all adventist believe that), but on "who" the remnant is and what they will look like. It's also widely taught that the remnant overcome sin, keep the commandments etc. The "logical conclusion" that LGT takes from this, is (briefly):

• That the 144000 are "sinlessly perfect" (different from others who are in the process of being sanctified).
• That tha atonement is was not completed at the cross, but rather is finally completed when the saints demonstrate that they can perfectly keep the law
• That the overcoming of the saints has huge eschatological implications, and finally clears God's name and defeats Satan in the Great Controversy

This is stated explicitly by Andreasen, and I think should be outlined in the intro of this article.

Here is a proposal for the intro:

Last Generation Theology (LGT) or "final generation" theology is a belief system of overcoming sin held amongst a conservative wing within the Seventh-day Adventist Church, in which perfection will be achieved by those who are sealed before the Second Coming of Jesus much like the 144000 described in the Book of Revelation of the New Testament. The belief is there will be an end time remnant of believers who are faithful to God, which will be manifest shortly prior to the second coming of Jesus. These "last generation" believers overcome sin like Christ and achieve a state of sinless perfection before the second coming.{https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1988/02/have-we-delayed-the-advent} This achievement vindicates the character and law of God and finally and ultimatly defeats Satan in the Great Controversy.

While similar in many ways to the fundamental teachings of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, LGT adds specific beliefs, or takes traditionally held Adventist beliefs "to their logical conclusion." Points of difference include teachings on the nature of Christ, perfection, the nature of the atonement, the identity of the remnantFundamental Beliefs, Scroll to 13th.], and the role of the last-day remnant in the Great Controversy theme. The beliefs and emphasis of LGT is similar to the group loosly known as "historic Adventism."

Last Generation Theology is largely based on the writings of M. L. Andreasen, who was expanding on the ideas of E. J. Waggoner. It is promoted by Adventist figures such as Dennis Priebe and Larry Kirkpatrick.

Databases (talk) 17:57, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Very good points, I am at work so a bit limited, but I like your proposal, and will get to work on getting the sources which show this is what Adventist have always believed. I cannot agree with the assertion that Last Generation Theology is largely based on the writings of M. L. Andreasen, as it has been taught from the early pioneers including Ellen White. We need to seperate fact from fiction, such as the looking into who came up with idea that the cleansing of sin is directly connected to affecting the timing of the Second Coming,etc...Thanks for your assistance on this article..Simbagraphix (talk) 19:06, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

@Simbagraphix, as other posters in this talks page have already pointed out, LGT is not mainstream Adventist teaching. WP is not the place to "prove" that this is what was taught by the pioneers. I propose that this page should be re-organized under 3 main headings:

• Teachings / Doctrine - the main points of LGT as it differs from mainstream Adventism. (perhaps Kirkpatrick's 14 points would be a good starting point, or better to summarize them in the point's I've already mentioned)
• History - History of the development of the line of thought, starting with M. L. Andreason. If mention is made of Adventist Pioneers, E.G. White, in support of LGT, it should be stated as "Adherents of LGT see the roots of their belief in ..." followed by brief summary, not long studies and attempts to prove. All adherents to LGT uphold Andreason's teachings (to my knowledge), so his contribution to the line of thought should be expanded (as the article appeared this morning before history was deleted).
• Controversy - Briefly summarize the differences and points of controversy with mainstream Adventist, along with sources. This would be the place to present arguments on both sides, but in an encyclopedic NPOV fashion. Databases (talk) 20:19, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

• Teachings / Doctrine - the main points of LGT as it differs from mainstream Adventism. Well lets take a look, Mainstream Adventist hold to the Biblical understanding of overcoming sin, which is shown in its doctrines as seen in the following "Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression" [The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 6, p. 1118]. Also the 28 Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-day Adventists notice #10 'we are given the power to live a holy life' and right before that 'we are born again and sanctified' through the Holy Spirit:"10. Experience of Salvation: In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God. Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Lord and Christ, as Substitute and Example. This faith which receives salvation comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God's grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God's sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God's law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life. Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment. (2 Cor. 5:17-21; John 3:16; Gal. 1:4; 4:4-7; Titus 3:3-7; John 16:8; Gal. 3:13, 14; 1 Peter 2:21, 22; Rom. 10:17; Luke 17:5; Mark 9:23, 24; Eph. 2:5-10; Rom. 3:21-26; Col. 1:13, 14; Rom. 8:14-17; Gal. 3:26; John 3:3-8; 1 Peter 1:23; Rom. 12:2; Heb. 8:7-12; Eze. 36:25-27; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rom. 8:1-4; 5:6-10.) Also by the writings of Ellen White as seen in the following:"As one of us He was to give an example of obedience. For this He took upon Himself our nature, and passed through our experiences. . By His humanity, Christ touched humanity; by His divinity, He lays hold upon the throne of God. As the Son of man, He gave us an example of obedience; as the Son of God, He gives us power to obey." Desire oF Ages, 24....I will await your response and we can go from there..Simbagraphix (talk) 01:55, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Good start. These are two points on which mainstream Adventists and LGT agree, though LGT places special emphasis on these points. I think the teachings of LGT can be summarized under a teachings / doctrine section, like this: (could expand slightly. We'll have to provide references but no need to include long quotations here, that only confuses the issue. References should be to more recent people / sites who promote LGT, not to E.G. White and the Bible, this is not an argument. People don't come to Wikipedia to read long arguments, just to get an NPOV overview of the argument and sources for more information on either side.)

• Teachings / Doctrine
  • LGT emphasizes the doctrine of overcoming sin, as taught by the mainstream Adventist church. LGT expands this teaching of sanctification into a doctrine of "sinless perfection" or "completed sanctification" (as opposed to or in addition to a progressive or continuing work of sanctification) which is achieved by those living just before the second coming of Christ.
  • LGT teaches the divine / human nature of Christ, as taught by the mainstream Adventist church, with special emphasis on the post-fall human nature of Christ. LGT teaches that Christ took man's sinful nature, including both inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil, because He was "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."
  • LGT teaches that the remnant must live perfectly during the time of trouble at the end to prove to the universe that fallen human beings can keep the law of God. LGT teaches that this perfection of God's remnant is the third and final phase of Christ's atonement, when God's law is vindicated and Satan's claims are finally defeated.

Databases (talk) 03:12, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't see any issue with "LGT expands this teaching of sanctification into a doctrine of "sinless perfection" or "completed sanctification" (as opposed to or in addition to a progressive or continuing work of sanctification) which is achieved by those living just before the second coming of Christ.

This part we have to go over, see http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_theology, "LGT teaches that Christ took man's sinful nature, including both inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil, because He was "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

This part is what Adventist have believed from the early pioneers as we see in the writings of Ellen White, till today, so need to see what is different in the LGT."**LGT teaches that the remnant must live perfectly during the time of trouble at the end to prove to the universe that fallen human beings can keep the law of God."...Simbagraphix (talk) 03:37, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Adventist believe that sanctification is a progressive or continuing work, but there is a time when it ends, and this is special time for the end time believers. This occurs when Christ atoning ministry in the heavenly sanctuary finishes and the investigative judgment ends. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of probation "before the Second Advent", (Fundamental Belief no. 24). Adventist hold that there is group of those living at this period just before the second coming of Christ, which the saints live without an intercessor till Christ appears. This is the remnant alive at the close of probation, which are described as the saints that are sealed, showing the perfect character of Christ, and this is where Adventist make the connection with the 144,000 to the remnant, those "without fault before the throne of God”.

Ellen White clearly lays this out in her statements including, "The urgency for attaining perfection comes from the knowledge that the remnant must live perfectly during the time of trouble at the end to prove to the universe that fallen human beings can keep the law of God." and “When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor.” (Great Controversy pg 614). So this belief of a end time believers who are sealed between the end atoning ministry in the heavenly sanctuary and the Second Coming is Adventist doctrine, in the Fundementals, supported by Ellen White, and Adventist also hold is shown by Scripture....Simbagraphix (talk) 11:49, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Looking at Historic Adventists they are a very small subset of Adventist which don't believe even in the understanding the Pioneers unveiled such as the nature of the GodHead, and Christ untainted by sin, while the Progressive Adventist don't believe in most of the basic fundamental beliefs, including Christ's atoning ministry in the heavenly sanctuary and the investigative judgment, the inspiration of Ellen White, the 7 day Creation, etc.. and tend to downplay the Pillars of Adventism including the state of the dead, the Sabbath. Mainstream Adventist reject either extreme and hold to the pillars of Adventism, and the 28 fundamentals, including the basic understanding of overcoming sin given in scripture, and clearly laid out in the writings of Ellen White.

Now as to the nature of Christ, Adventist believe Christ is our example and took the post-fall nature of Adam, "By assuming sinful flesh, and voluntarily making Himself dependent upon His Father to keep Him from sin while He was in the world, Jesus not only set the example for all Christians, but also made it possible for Him to minister for sinful flesh the gift of His own Spirit and the power for obedience to the will of God. "International Sabbath School Quarterly, "The Incarnation and the Priesthood" (Senior Division, No. 71, First Quarter. 1913. Pacific Press). Mainstream Adventist hold to the belief taught by Ellen White, that He came with the effects of Adam’s sin deep within his nature, that Christ took on the fallen nature but not the sinfulness of man. Christ took our "infirmities of the race as they existed when He came to the earth to help man..with the weaknesses of fallen man upon Him" He took the sinful nature in the sense of that he had a lessened capacity with respect to the fallen nature that he inherited from Adam, including physical weaknesses, frailties and mental, and moral degeneracy and deterioration. QOD Assumed Liabilities of Human Nature pp. 653-654. Yet Christ had a spiritual nature that was not tainted by sin. Adventist doctrine is that Christ took the fallen nature of man as he was after four thousand years of sin, but not the sinfulness a spiritual nature that was unfallen, so He could be a example in overcoming sin. "In taking upon Himself man’s nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. He was subject to the infirmities and weaknesses by which man is encompassed, “that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.” He was touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in all points tempted like as we are. And yet He “knew no sin.” He was the Lamb “without blemish and without spot.” Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour’s head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam...We should have no misgivings in regard to the perfect sinlessness of the human nature of Christ.— "—The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, p. 1131.—The SDA Bible Commentary, vol.5, p.1131.

"When Adam was assailed by the tempter in Eden he was without the taint of sin. He stood in the strength of his perfection before God. All the organs and faculties of his being were equally developed, and harmoniously balanced. Christ, in the wilderness of temptation, stood in Adam’s place to bear the test he failed to endure. Here Christ overcame in the sinner’s behalf, four thousand years after Adam turned his back upon the light of his home. Separated from the presence of God, the human family had been departing every successive generation, farther from the original purity, wisdom, and knowledge which Adam possessed in Eden. Christ bore the sins and infirmities of the race as they existed when He came to the earth to help man. In behalf of the race, with the weaknesses of fallen man upon Him, He was to stand the temptations of Satan upon all points wherewith man would be assailed....In what contrast is the second Adam as He entered the gloomy wilderness to cope with Satan single-handed. Since the fall the race had been decreasing in size and physical strength, and sinking lower in the scale of moral worth, up to the period of Christ’s advent to the earth. And in order to elevate fallen man, Christ must reach him where he was. He took human nature, and bore the infirmities and degeneracy of the race. He, who knew no sin, became sin for us. He humiliated Himself to the lowest depths of human woe, that He might be qualified to reach man, and bring him up from the degradation in which sin had plunged him" [The SDA Bible Commentary, Vol. 5, Page 1081]

"Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression" [The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 6, p. 1118]

While Christ was tempted as all other human beings are, the lessened capacity of his human nature did not ever include giving in to temptation or having any evil desires or propensity or inclination towards sin in his spiritual nature as Adam had before the Fall, a position with which Ellen White taught and mainstream Adventists hold. See Woodrow W. Whidden II, The Humanity of Christ page 70, and QoD III. Took Sinless Human Nature pp. 650-652....Simbagraphix (talk) 14:05, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Adventist hold to the belief it was necessary for Christ to partake human nature in order to save mankind. Four reasons, found in the Seventh-day Adventists Believe: (1) To be the High Priest for human race. (2) To save even the most degraded person. (3) To give up His life for the sins of the world. (4) To be humanity’s example:

"To be our example. To set the example as to how people should live, Christ must live a sinless life as a human being. As the second Adam He dispelled the myth that humans cannot obey God's law and have victory over sin. He demonstrated that it is possible for humanity to be faithful to God's will. Where the first Adam fell, the second Adam gained the victory over sin and Satan and became both our Saviour and our perfect example. In His strength His victory can be ours (John 16:33)...By beholding Him, people "are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory" (2 Cor. 3:18). "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith. . . . Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart" (Heb. 12:2, 3, NIV). Truly, Christ "suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps" (1 Peter 2:21; cf. John 13:15)."[Seventh-day Adventists Believe, pg 49-50]...

So its not a simple either Post-fall versus Pre-fall, but the Adventist belief on Christ taking on our nature and overcoming is seen in Hebrews 5..2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity....7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Notice it says Christ learned obedience. That means He didn't naturally obey. And 'compassed' with human infirmities, which would include the mind became tired or stressed, or suffer and be emotional as when Christ cried at Lazurus death. It is important to understand that Christ, because of human nature He took on, had the strength of human passion for sin. But He did not have the human passion to sin, or as Peter says 'the Mind of Christ'. Simbagraphix (talk) 14:05, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

History Section Gutted?

@Simbagraphix, I see you have removed a large section that was under "History," describing Andreasen and his development of LGT. Instead, you replaced it with a much smaller section entitled "Early Pioneers" which just has a couple lengthy quotes from Ellen White, and says nothing about LGT as we know it. I think the section you deleted was perhaps the most informative part of the whole article. Granted, it did need to be re-formatted and cleaned up, and part of it should have gone in a sections on "criticism." Databases (talk) 18:39, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

I was restoring what had been deleted as I asked the poster to come into the talk page to work it out, but you can see the results.....Simbagraphix (talk) 19:17, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

@Simbragraphix, I see that a large section that was added by @RoyBurtonson was deleted. While the new content could use some work, I think it is a good starting point for an article. As I maintain, WP is not the place of a one-sided view, and this article should present a fair and balanced view of LGT. Here is the latest revision of the article before the content was deleted.

We can work on that once we settle the other issues, as some of us do have other things such as work, LOL...Simbagraphix (talk) 03:45, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Claiming Supporters of LGT?

The article claims that many well-known individuals, including Ted Wilson, the current General Conference President, support LGT. Also, there is a laundry list of Adventist ministries. Such claims need to be verified and validated with proper citations. Just because an individual makes statements that agree with some of the tenants LGT does not mean they support LGT. References and citations should indicate that the named individual is clearly supporting / promoting LGT as a whole. Databases (talk) 18:45, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Much of that was there or at other wikipedia articles, we can work on that for improvement....Simbagraphix (talk) 19:17, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Here is General Conference President Ted Wilson on the end time believers or remnant and the source, "The first step in the revival that will prepare God’s people for the latter rain is our recognition of personal sin and weaknesses. With this recognition, the remnant will seek a closer relationship with Jesus through genuine repentance and a turning away from sinful behavior. The Great Controversy, page 623, says, “It is in this life that we are to separate sin from us, through faith in the atoning blood of Christ. Our precious Savior invites us to join ourselves to Him, to unite our weakness to His strength, our ignorance to His wisdom, our unworthiness to His merits.” ..http://www.adventistreview.org/church-news/%E2%80%98god%E2%80%99s-prophetic-movement,-message,-and-mission-and-their-attempted-neutralization-by-the-devil%E2%80%99...Simbagraphix (talk) 02:42, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

There is no evidence here, linking Ted Wilson to the LGT camp. Even if his statements clearly espoused LGT beliefs, this constitutes original research unless you can cite an authority outside of WP that makes the claim that Ted Wilson is in the LGT camp. I rest my case. Databases (talk) 03:20, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't think you understand that overcoming sin as given in the Great Controversy at "the latter rain" which he uses and LGT are the same, there are those that take it beyond what the church holds, and that is what needs to be identified....Simbagraphix (talk) 03:23, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

NPOV

Please see my comments under the previous NPOV heading, #Attempt to Prove LGT taught by Adventist Church Pioneers Databases (talk) 18:18, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

That is fine with me, I can get to work on that when I get home tonight....Simbagraphix (talk) 19:17, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Lets take a look at what there is from the pioneers. Here is Ellen White, "The urgency for attaining perfection comes from the knowledge that the remnant must live perfectly during the time of trouble at the end to prove to the universe that fallen human beings can keep the law of God. Ellen White states, “When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor.” (Great Controversy pg 614). And more, "Perfection of character is based upon that which Christ is to us. If we have constant dependence on the merits of our Saviour, and walk in His footsteps, we shall be like Him, pure and undefiled. Our Father Cares, Page 214.3

Our Saviour does not require impossibilities of any soul. He expects nothing of His disciples that He is not willing to give them grace and strength to perform. He would not call upon them to be perfect if He had not at His command every perfection of grace to bestow on the ones upon whom He would confer so high and holy a privilege.... Our Father Cares, Page 214.4

Our work is to strive to attain in our sphere of action the perfection that Christ in His life on the earth attained in every phase of character. He is our example. In all things we are to strive to honor God in character.... We are to be wholly dependent on the power that He has promised to give us. Our Father Cares, Page 214..5

Jesus revealed no qualities, and exercised no powers, that men may not have through faith in Him. His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess, if they will be in subjection to God as He was. Our Father Cares, Page 214..6

Our Saviour is a Saviour for the perfection of the whole man. He is not the God of part of the being only. The grace of Christ works to the disciplining of the whole human fabric. He made all. He has redeemed all. He has made the mind, the strength, the body as well as the soul, partaker of the divine nature, and all is His purchased possession. He must be served with the whole mind, heart, soul, and strength. Then the Lord will be glorified in His saints in even the common, temporal things with which they are connected. “Holiness unto the Lord” will be in the inscription placed upon them. Our Father Cares, Page 214.7”...

Then James White, "James White:"The mass of people think that if a person is prepared to die, he is prepared for the coming of the Lord. But they do not consider the difference between dying and standing alive to meet the Lord at His appearing. It is one thing to die in the Lord, to yield our spirits to Him while He is pleading for us before the Father's throne, and quite a different thing to stand in the time of trouble after Jesus has ceased to plead in man's behalf, after His priest-hood is closed, and He is preparing to come to redeem His own, and take vengeance on His foes. They who realize these things will bless heaven that means have been devised in the mercy of God for the perfection of the saints."—Life Sketches of James and Ellen White, p. 431

Then more from James White, "The great work of the atonement is now complete, and the work of our Lord, as priest, accomplished. The sins of those who have obtained pardon through the great sin-offering, are, at the close of our Lord's work in the holy places, blotted out, Acts 3:19, and being then transferred to the scape-goat, they are borne away from the sanctuary and host forever, and rest upon the head of their author, the devil. The Azazel, or antitypical scape-goat, will then have received the sins of those who have been pardoned in the sanctuary, and in the lake of fire he will suffer for the sins which he has instigated. God's people, the host, will then be free from their iniquity....The cases of all men will then be forever fixed. "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still; and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still; and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still; and he that is holy, let him be holy still." The Ministration and Cleansing of the Sanctuary by James S. White, from "Bible Adventism" page 160.

Then we have Uriah Smith, "Thus the evidence seems clear and conclusive that the 144,000 are gathered from the last generation before Christ comes; that they are brought out by the third angel's message; that even those of them who die in the message are blessed, being restored to the number by resurrection before Christ appears; and that all crowned at last with the peculiar privilege of composing the cabinet of the King of kings and Lord of lords, to follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth (Rev.14:4), joyful in His constant presence, and sustained by His unfailing grace. Rev.7:15,17." The 144,000 In Revelation 7 and 14 by Uriah Smith.

Then A.T Jones, speaks extensively on it in the Consecrated Way, "Sanctification is the true keeping of all the commandments of God. In other words, this is to say that the will of God concerning man is that His will shall be perfectly fulfilled in man. His will is expressed in His law of ten commandments, which is "the whole duty of man." This law is perfect, and perfection of character is the perfect expression of this law in the life of the worshiper of God. By this law is the knowledge of sin. And all have sinned and have come short of the glory of God—have come short of this perfection of character....In His coming in the flesh—having been made in all things like unto us and having been tempted in all points like as we are—He has identified Himself with every human soul just where that soul is. And from the place where every human soul is, He has consecrated for that soul a new and living way through all the vicissitudes and experiences of a whole lifetime, and even through death and the tomb, into the holiest of all at the right hand of God for evermore....Perfection, perfection of character, is the Christian goal—perfection attained in human flesh in this world. Christ attained it in human flesh in this world and thus made and consecrated a way by which, in Him, every believer can attain it. He, having attained it, has become our great High Priest, by His priestly ministry in the true sanctuary to enable us to attain.", The Consecrated Way, A.T Jones. Chapter 12, 43,45.

There is more, but I think this will suffice for the article...Simbagraphix (talk) 01:37, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Re-factor Article

I have taken some liberty to re-factor this article. I've combined some sections under "Doctrine" that were largely redundant, moved the section on "Cleanse and Close" to the history section, resurrected deleted content on Andreasen's theology to add to the history section, and also added a section for criticism per WP policy. I have tried to leave all the actual content the same as before, but I did make a few edits to make things flow a little better. Please, let's discuss these changes, and if someone has problems don't just revert my edits, as I'm trying to improve this article and make it more readable. We've got a long ways to go on the actual page contents but do the section headings fairly represent what needs to be in the article now? Databases (talk) 16:15, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Original Sin has a totally different meaning than 'nature' of sin, , and Victory Over Sin also has deep meaning and context for Adventist so I reverted that, please propose changes first and we can move forward accordingly..Please see http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_theology..Simbagraphix (talk) 19:55, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

OK, I can see that "nature of sin" gives a different meaning. I was mainly looking at the consistency of the table of contents. As an editorial / stylistic issue, all the other teachings are stated in the positive, so it appears that LGT teaches "Original Sin" (from the TOC) even though the article states the opposite. That's why I changed to "nature of sin." Perhaps we could say "Opposition to Original Sin" or something for the section title, for people who don't read the whole article? Databases (talk) 21:46, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

I would like to work through the article systematically, so that it is written as NPOV. I don't want to discredit the work that has gone into this article but I think it needs some help, and part of that will be to condense a lot of wordy sections and remove EGW quotations. As an example, I have re-worked the heading to the "Doctrine" section to demonstrate what I mean. We can discuss it, but please let's keep this article clean and to the point. Databases (talk) 22:21, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Please discuss before changes to Ellen White quotes as her counsel and testimony helped illuminate the truths in scripture which are the Pillars of Adventism and her writings lends weight as a "continuing and authoritative source of truth" as seen in Fundamental Belief #18 "The Gift of Prophecy- One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White. As the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested."...Simbagraphix (talk) 00:21, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

@Simbagraphix, please read Wikipedia:Quotations#Overusing_quotations and Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view. I don't believe that these quotes help the article. This is not the place to debate EGW but neither is WP the place to prove your viewpoint. Databases (talk) 01:18, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

I will work on the quotes to pare down to what is needed, but please do not delete them as it is central to the issue at hand...Simbagraphix (talk) 11:38, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

What kind of Adventists?

The article seems to make all kind of references to different groups withing Adventism. I know about "Seventh-day Adventists" but references to "Mainstream" Adventists, "Modern" Adventists, etc don't make much sense. As per previous discussion, the term "Historic Adventism" has gained some level of traction (although itself a misnomer IMO) so those references could stay as links to the article on historic adventism. I've also not heard of "LGT Adventists," so I am using the phrase "Proponents of Last Generation Theology." Not sure if this phrase is NPOV, not wanting to sound derogatory, but please suggest a better phrase, to distinguish believers in LGT from the larger body of Seventh-day Adventists. In the meantime I will work on normalizing other references.Databases (talk) 21:42, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

We can use Adventist, but keep in mind there 3 general groupings within Adventism

1.Historics - believe in post-fall human nature of Jesus, with sinful inclinations, tend to reject the Nature of the GodHead or hold Semi-Arian views. [Note that Historic Adventism has been erroneously applied by Progressives to any Adventists that adhere to the teachings of the church as reflected in the church's fundamental beliefs.]

2.Mainstream - believe in post-fall nature yet without the sinful desire or propensity to sin, or taint of sin (spiritual nature of Adam before the Fall), and accept traditional formulation of 1844, Investigative judgment, the remnant, Ellen G. White's writings as the Spirit of Prophecy, etc. Basically the distinctive Adventist doctrines and the denomination's 28 fundamental beliefs.

3.Progressives - reject traditional formulation of investigative judgment, the Nature of Christ, the Gift of Prophecy, or the remnant, etc. They tend to not hold to the denomination's 28 fundamental beliefs.

Here is the Mainstream on the Nature of Christ-."Christ's humanity was not Adamic humanity, that is. the humanity of Adam before the fall, nor fallen humanity; that is in every respect the humanity of Adam after the fall. It was not the Adamic, because it had the innocent infirmities of the fallen, It was not the fallen, because it had never descended into moral impurity. It was. therefore. most literally our humanity, but without sin," [Seventh-day Adventists Believe. 47/1:4-47/ 2:0. 1988]

QoD:IV. Assumed Liabilities of Human Nature pp. 653-654"Christ did not make believe take human nature; He did verily take it. He did in reality possess human nature. "As the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same." He was the son of Mary; He was of the seed of David according to human descent."—The Review and Herald, April 5, 1906.

"Christ bore the sins and infirmities of the race as they existed when He came to the earth to help man. In behalf of the race, with the weaknesses of fallen man upon Him, He was to stand the temptations of Satan upon all points wherewith man would be assailed."—The Review and Herald, July 28, 1874.

"The Son of God humbled Himself and took man's nature after the race had wandered four thousand years from Eden, and from their original state of purity and uprightness. Sin had been making its terrible marks upon the race for ages; and physical, mental, and moral degeneracy prevailed throughout the human family." —The Review and Herald, July 28, 1874.

From Answers to Objections--An Examination of The Major Objections Raised Against The Teachings of Seventh-Day. Adventists, " 'Seventh-day Adventists teach that, like all mankind, Christ was born with a 'sinful nature.' " This plainly indicates 'that His heart, too, was 'deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.' In harmony with this, they also teach 'that Christ might have failed while on His mission to earth as man's Saviour that He came into the world at the risk of failure and eternal loss,' But the Bible repeatedly states that Christ was holy, that 'He knew no sin,' and that He would 'not fail nor be discouraged,' "Frances D. Nichol, Answers to Objections, Review and Herald, 1952,389.

And the "moral/spiritual nature" of Adam before the fall without the sinful desire or propensity to sin."Christ took the spiritual nature of man before the fall, and the physical nature of man after the fall." [N. R. Gulley, Christ Our Substitute, 33, Senior Sabbath School Quarterly for the First Quarter of 1983]

And Mainstream Adventist doctrine is Christ could have sin, he was not 'impecable'."Many claim that it was impossible for Christ to be overcome by temptation. Then He could not have been placed in Adam's position; He could not have gained the victory that Adam failed to gain. If we have in any sense a more trying conflict than had Christ, then He would not be able to succor us. But our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. . . . In man's behalf, Christ conquered by enduring the severest test."—The Desire of Ages, p. 117

“Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgression. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him and evil propensity.”[The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, p. 1128]

Here is his definition of Progressive/Evangelical Adventists-The major doctrinal issues which united this group were:

1)*Righteousness by faith*: This group accepted the reformation understanding of righteousness by faith (according to which righteousness by faith includes justification only, and is a judicial act of God whereby He declares sinners to be just on the basis of Christ's own righteousness). Our standing before God rests in the imputed righteousness of Christ, which we receive through faith alone. Sanctification is the accompanying fruit and not the root of salvation.:

2)*The human nature of Christ*: Jesus Christ possessed a sinless human nature with no inclination or propensities toward sin. In that sense, Christ's human nature was like that of Adam's before the Fall. Though Christ certainly suffered the limitations of a real man, by nature He was impeccable (i.e., incapable of sin). Jesus was primarily our substitute.

3)*The events of 1844*: Jesus Christ entered into the most holy place (heaven itself) at His ascension; the sanctuary doctrine and the investigative judgment (traditional literalism and perfectionism) have no basis in Scripture.

4)*Assurance of salvation*: Our standing and assurance before God rest solely in Christ's imputed righteousness; sinless perfection is not possible this side of heaven. Trusting Christ gives a person assurance.

5)*Authority of Ellen G. White*: Ellen White was a genuine Christian who possessed a gift of prophecy. However, neither she nor her writings are infallible, and they should not be used as a doctrinal authority.

I think, for purposes of this article, it would be best to stick with well-accepted names and stay away from labels like "mainstream" "progressive" etc. To say "Seventh-day Adventists teach" is a defensible position, citing the 28 fundamental beliefs. By contrast, I think we should say "those who teach Last Generation Theology" to refer to that, as I have never found a source saying "last generation theology adventists" or anything like that. Databases (talk) 15:02, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

I will work on the rewording...Simbagraphix (talk) 01:45, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Lead Section

The lead section needs to be re-worded to accurately summarize the article, and remove weasel words. I have made several attempts at re-wording but they are always reverted by @Simbrgraphix. Specifically, the lead section is mostly a re-hash of similarities between LGT and Seventh-day Adventist teaching. It should describe the differences or unique points of LGT as per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section Databases (talk) 15:07, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Please make a presentation of the changes for the lead and the body before you delete what is there, then we can work to a consensus, rather than have what is crucial to understanding the issue taken out of the article...Simbagraphix (talk) 00:18, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Excessive Quotations / Over-use of Primary Sources

The article includes many, many quotations from the Bible and Ellen G. White, in defence of the teachings of LGT. Not only is this not NPOV, this kind of study constitutes Original Research, IMO, and is also an over-use of "primary sources." Wikipedia policy encourages the use of secondary sources over primary sources. See Wikipedia:No original research. I have taken some liberties to remove or shorten excessive quotations. This article could really use more secondary sources, especially from publications like the Adventist Review. (Also Larry Kirkpatrick and M. L. Andreasen would be considered primary sources in this article).Databases (talk) 15:25, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

I will work on reducing, I don't think that should much of a issue....Simbagraphix (talk) 00:31, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Re-hashing SDA beliefs and quoting Bible studies unnecessary

As this article is about Last Generation Theology, I don't think this is the place for long discussions about this history of SDA beliefs. The article should point out the similarities / differences between SDA beliefs and LGT, but the discussion at the top of the "Doctrine" section, and long discussions under many of these sub-headings, could be condensed significantly.

Saying "The Last Generation Theology understanding is best seen in light of the doctrinal development of the Seventh-day Adventist Church" and then proceeding to re-hash the history of the 28 fundamental beliefs is off-topic at best. There is already an article for the 28 Fundamental Beliefs (Adventist), and if this discussion needs to be anywhere, that is the place for it. This article should simply reference the existing 28 Fundamental Beliefs (Adventist) article and then point out similarities / differences and differences of emphasis, supported by reputible secondary (20th or 21st century) sources.

Also, there is no need for lengthy quotations from scripture, "proving" that it's possible to have victory over sin, or that Christ had a fallen nature, etc. This is an encyclopedia article, not a Bible study or persuasive speech. This article should simply summarize the debate and cite relevant secondary sources. Databases (talk) 19:27, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Well as the differences of the groups is what is causing the debate as M. L. Andreasen views are supported as Adventist doctrine, only the hastening and cleansing sin of the saints on earth by Christ during His atoning ministry is not held directly as doctrine so should that should be laid out in the article. I will work on those issues......Simbagraphix (talk) 11:51, 27 January 2015 (UTC)