Talk:Lager

Lagers: most alcoholic?

Per the Wiki as it's currently constituted: "In strength, lagers represent some of the world's most alcoholic beers. The very strongest lagers often fall into the German-originated doppelbock style, with the strongest of these, the commercially-produced Samichlaus, reaching 14% ABV."

I suggest deletion of these statements. There's no factual reference cited, and from my personal experience, there's nothing exceptional about the alcoholic content of lagers. If anything, I'd probably say the opposite (that ales tend to have a higher ABV [alcohol by volume] than lagers). Currently, the article references Samichlaus Bier at 14% ABV as "evidence" of this supposition -- but there are any numbers of ales that meet and exceed 14%. Not to mention, Samichlaus is not the strongest doppelbock anyway.

I do think it's worthwhile to mention that doppelbocks are typically the strongest lagers, and that Samichlaus Bier is an example of that style. But the rest should be removed.

--Mavajo (talk) 14:23, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

"Ale" vs "Lager" terminology

Many contributors to this encyclopaedia are incorrectly using the term "lager" when they mean bottom fermented Ale or Beer. There are two main types of yeast - top fermenting yeast and bottom fermenting yeast. In the UK, Ireland and Belgium, the predominant method of brewing uses top fermenting yeast. In Germany and central Europe (Czech Republic and other places) the predominant method uses bottom fermenting yeast.

The term lager is almost exclusively used in the UK and Ireland (possibly in other English speaking countries). It would never be used by a German Brewer to describe a beer. It is used to describe a brewing process - lagering is storing beer until the fermentation has slowed down to a specific point; this is a process that tends to be used for bottom fermented beers; although top fermented beers do have to go through a period of conditioning.

Bottom fermented beers can be light, dark, strong, weak, wheat beers etc... calling them lager is a misnomer.

The products marketed as lager in the UK was inevitably very light and bore a passing resemblance to Pilsner beers, or Budweiser beers (those from the Czech? towns of Pilsen and Budweis respectively). However this was as often as not Top fermented beer, anyway! So to compare bottom fermented beers with lager is an insult to continental brewers.

You are wrong. I live in the United States and the dominant beer here, Budweiser, is a lager, as indicated on the label. Budweiser for export also includes the phrase "Budweiser Lager Beer". The term "lager" is used by virtually every major brewer in the US, Canada, the UK, and many other countries to describe beers brewed using the "lagering" process.--Metalhead94 (talk) 16:42, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

"Lagerbier" is commonly used in German beer brands as well, e.g. "Helles Lagerbier". --Killing Vector (talk) 17:05, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

At risk of breaching WP:NPA, the anonymous poster above is talking crap on almost every single point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.1.196.156 (talk) 23:11, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Nah, the top posting is completely right. As far as "Helles lagerbier" goes, helles means light in german so that's how you'll identify what kind of beer it is. Also Helles can be either top or bottom fermented. As for budwieser, in Germany, they wouldn't even call it a beer, never mind a lager, because it uses rice in the mash bill which is illegal under the Reinheitsgebot(see http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Reinheitsgebot). The word lager means "to store", which most modern breweries don't do. Most beers from the states, canada and england that have the word lager on the bottle are in fact not lager because they are not matured after fermentation. So, all in all I think it's mostly you guys that are talking crap. Get your fact straight first yeah? - I agree with the top guy and reckon this article should be changed to prevent further stupidity. UberBeer (talk) 20:18, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Lager beers produced in the USA, Australia and the UK and many parts of Europe are in fact given a brief lagering period. Ten days in the case of Australia or the Netherlands (Heineken)- but lagering none the less. One of the most popular beers in Germany, namely Warsteiner, lagers for 10 days at zero to minus-2 degrees Celsius. UberBeer's comment about beers "not being matured after fermentation" is not correct as there is a lagering period, albeit brief. Even American Malt Liquor gets a couple of weeks, apparently. --MichaelGG (talk) 04:11, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

The distinction between top and bottom-fermenting yeast has eroded with the wide use of closed, cylindrico-conical fermenters. The operational distinction between ale and lager beer is the fermentation temperature. Lager beer is fermented in the range of about 10-15 C and ale is fermented in the range of 15-20 C The lower temperature of lager beer fermentation gives a product with a lower concentration of esters - compounds that give fruity or flowery notes. Ale yeast (S. cerevisiae) will not work at low temperature, so lager beer is generally associated with lager yeast: S. pastorianus. Beer that is fermented at low temperature needs a prolonged cold conditioning period (the lager process) to allow the yeast to consume diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione, which give a buttery off-flavor. The lager process gave lager beer its name, but the most reliable point of distinction of ale from lager beer is fermentation temperature. Dr Thermo (talk) 19:44, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

I read with interest this thread. Based on what I see above the distinction between lager and ale beers has nothing to do with top or bottom fermentation but it is only dependent on the fermentation temperature (10-15°C versus 15-20°C). Does the hop play any part at all in the distinction between lager and ale beers?

ICE77 (talk) 21:42, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

References

The Lager Brothers

I got this from a site regarding the etymology for "lager beer" : there were two brothers named Gottfried and Sigmund Lager (c1400-1470) who founded a famous brewery in Dortmund. In the 1440s they quarrelled and Gottfried upped and moved to Munich where he prospered by selling this strong, pale beer. Jay 19:22, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The above contradicts the established wisdom that the term lager derives from the German word meaning 'to store'.

I am not aware of any McEwan's beers that are lagers... They are all ales, as far as I know. Can anyone confirm this?

McEwans do make a lager, but their main beers are the 70 & 80 shilling, which are ales. The examples of lagers given here are a joke: Scotland has twice as many lager examples as Germany, where both the Scottish brewers mentioned aren't even particularly known for lager, and the German brewer is by far not the largest producer. And Jever isn't even particularly bitter. I'll make some changes, starting with deletuing these:

• Tennents : Scottish, standard international lager
• McEwan's : Scottish, strong rivalry with Tennent's

That's better ---- Charles Stewart 23:24, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Scottish Courage (now bought by Heineken) are discontinuing McEwan's Lager --MichaelGG (talk) 01:28, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Inaccuracy or not as the case may be

"The most evident difference compared to the yeast that was used in the rest of Europe is that lager yeast deposits on the bottom after the fermentation rather than rising on the top."

While lager yeast is "bottom-fermenting" and ale yeast is "top-fermenting", this is during fermentation. After fermentation both ale and lager yeasts fall to the bottom, a process known as flocculation.

Top fermenting yeast has to be helped to flocculate - hence the use of finings which are usually isinglass. It is only then that the yeast will fall to the bottom.

Some yeasts have high levels of flocculation, and some have low levels of flocculation (such as those used in hefeweizens), but yeast do not flocculate to the top. If the yeast does not fall to the bottom after fermentation, then the beer will be cloudy.

• Is this better? Wikibofh 03:36, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Not quite true, originally most if not all ale yeasts rose to the top of the vessel after fermentation was complete. This yeast was removed and used to re-pitch subsequent brews. If you are a home brewer you can actually still experience this phenomenon with some yeasts such as Wyeast 1469 West Yorkshire Bitter. The few small breweries that still use Yorkshire Squares, such as Samuel Smith and Blacksheep in Yorkshire have 'yeast decks'above the fermenter that the yeast rises up onto after fermentation is finished. However with the rise of bigger commercial breweries, nearly all ale yeasts now floc to the bottom of the fermenter after they have done their job. The original terms top and bottom fermenting were allocated to the two styles of brewing in the late 19th Century when they were more 'true to type'. However it has become blurred over the subsequent decades.--MichaelGG (talk) 01:36, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

History of lager

There needs to be a lot more development in this section and I don't have my sources close to hand. My understanding of the timeline is, roughly:

• Lagering is practiced during the medieval period in the Alps and southern Holy Roman Empire
• Sometime in the 14th(?) century, lager yeast emerges as a distinct species. Medieval brewers, not knowing anything about microbiology, didn't classify beers by yeast except vaguely by top or bottom fermentation.
• Bock is invented
• Lager brewing is forbidden within city walls until the Reformation.
• The Reinheitsgebot applies to both ale and lager.
• Lagers gradually become the dominant style of beer in protestant parts of German-speaking lands.
• Pale malt, and then Pilsener malt, are introduced to the Continent from Britain.
• 1830s: The Carlsberg brewing family begins formal research into the biology of beer. Saccharomyces carlsbergensis is named in their honor.
• Mass emigration of Central Europeans to the US. Establishment of US Budweiser, Miller, Coors, Michelob brands.
• Austrian lager styles migrate to Bohemia ("disappearance" of Vienna & Munich lagers)
• First World War. Prohibition in the US.
• 1930: Continuous Fermentation discovered. Industrialization of lager brewing in Europe.
• Post-WWII: pale lager becomes dominant beer style throughout Europe and North America. Beer begins to be sold en masse in Asia, with lager rapidly becoming dominant. Austrian styles remain in production east of Iron Curtain.
• Recent: Consolidation of macro-breweries, expansion of contract brewing.
• Since 1970's: Establishment of craft microbreweries producing lagers in the US
• Since 1990's: Cask lager production expands in Britain. Starts with Cains and Harviestoun?

Anyway, obviously these are all still just scratch notes. --Stlemur 09:49, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The section on Lager History covering continuous fermentation makes it seem like continuous fermentation is widely in use throughout the world. I believe that not to be the case. I think most of the large breweries, including lager brewers, still utilize batch fermentation. That I am aware of there is only one large continuous fermentation brewery in the world. Dominion Brewery in New Zealand. Can anyone name another? If not I think this section should be edited so that it does not imply lager's popularity is largely contingent on continuous fermentation because that does not seem to be the case. Degarth (talk) 03:28, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Dominion Breweries state that their continuous fermentation 'sets them apart' from other brewers, so no other breweries in New Zealand use the system. Overseas there are references to pilot schemes at Bass, Labatt and Kirin, but no evidence that they ever came into widespread use.--MichaelGG (talk) 03:29, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Making lager

How is this anything but discussion for home-brewers? Certainly home-brewers can appreciate the experience of drinking a beer, but it is illusion to think that the opposite is true: that beer drinkers would like to know how to make the beer. There is a home-brewing section here already - why doesn't "how to make lager" belong in that section? Mikebe (talk) 08:44, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

None of us? And why do you assume this article is only for beer drinkers? Anyway, a how to guide to making beer does not belong on wikipedia, it belongs on wikibooks. What does belong here, and in this article a description of lager making, including historical perspecive, economic perspective and a contrast to the process of making other beers.Taemyr (talk) 09:09, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

There should be a section on producing lager

1. The fact is, lager is one of the most consumed products on the planet. Not having detailed information on its manufacture would be like not having an article on dairy farming.
2. The argument that the section, as written or in any reasonable form, applies only to homebrewing is, simply, nonsensical; the accusation ties into a long-standing, acrimonious discussion on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject_Beer.
3. There are elements of lager production specific to lager, which aren't practiced in general brewing. As far as I know, nobody does industrial-scale continuous fermentation of ales (good luck even attempting continuous fermentation at home!). CH deserves its own article as well; it's an industrial process. --Stlemur (talk) 08:45, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

As far as you know how many breweries use continuous fermentation period? Degarth (talk) 03:32, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Please not that wikipedia is not a how to guide. So a section like making lager, or producing lager is not really approriate. What is needed is an article on lager production. Taemyr (talk) 09:17, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think as written it is a how-to guide; describing what hops and malts are used is analogous to the description of grape varieties in, say, Rhône wine. I would agree that as the article expands spinning off the production section into its own article would be justified, but at the moment I don't think there's enough there for it. --Stlemur (talk) 10:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Its mainly the name that I have a problem with. Taemyr (talk) 11:03, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I've renamed it. --Stlemur (talk) 11:09, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you for straightening me out. Obviously I was very wrong. The next thing you know, I'll be asking crazy things like: Where's the article on producing ale? Where's the article on producing lambik? Where's the article on producing wheat beer? Where's the article on producing computers? On producing automobiles? On producing houses? And thanks for the comparison between beer and dairy farming. That's a real classic. Thanks! Mikebe (talk) 13:03, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Well lets see. In the order that I found them. For production of automobiles seeAutomotive industry. For houses there is several, I am from Norway, where wood is a common building material so Carpenter is a place to start. Architecture is an other. You might also want to take a look at Construction. Or Building#Creation. If you take a look at Ale you will see that both Ale#History of ale and Ale#Modern ale is primary concerned with production of ale. Lambik? What is it? Anyway try Lambic#brewing. I found no distinct place that discusses production of wheat beer, but note the introduction on Wheat beer. I hope this has been of help. Taemyr (talk) 12:58, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not opposed to any description of how something is produced. I am opposed to repeating the same information many times with minor variations. So, if you would like to know how beer (primarily lager) is made, why not look here here Beer#Brewing? Isn't that enough? All beer is furthermore, made more or less the same -- yes, there are differences in temperatures and ingredients, however, is it really necessary that minor difference needs to be described? Secondly, the description of producing something should be written in such a way that it is understandable by anyone and everyone (not only American home-brewers). This article is not as bad as some others I have seen, however, since lager brewing is already described in considerable detail in the article I cited, what is the purpose of the duplication here? Mikebe (talk) 14:59, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

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Lager vs Lager Beer

Why does 'lager beer' redirect to the 'pale lager' page and not here? A merge should probably be done (not by me though, I know nothing about it - I just stumbled across this when looking up stuff about brewers yeasts).

Fixed --Killing Vector (talk) 00:43, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Definition

The definition sucks. How many other articles in Wikipedia start, "X is any type of Y that is not Z"? Is it just that a lager is any beer that is not an ale, or does it have characteristics of its own? 70.21.205.206 (talk) 02:58, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree—I wrote an alternative definition. But I like to stay out of revert wars :.) Watching this page blink back and forth from one definition to the next is dizzying. → (AllanBz ✍) 03:14, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Much better. 71.250.72.203 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:39, 5 August 2009 (UTC).

Refined definition. Lager is characterized by low temperature fermentation and conditioning. Mashing and boiling are hot. Also provided a citation. Dr Thermo (talk) 20:02, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I can't sound like I know anything about beer unless I know if 'lager' is pronounced with a long or short 'a'. I don't know anything about pronunciation stylization, so I'll be unbold and ask someone else to do it. -Keith (Hypergeek14)^Talk 20:50, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

It depends where you come from. If you live in London or the South East of the UK you would probably pronounce it almost as "lorger". In Australia it is pronounced with a long "broad a" and sounds like "laaager". I have heard some regional USA accents that use that broad "a" as well. In Scotland it would generally be pronounced with a short a, sounding a bit like "lagger" --MichaelGG (talk) 00:49, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Hops?

Rtdrury (talk) 01:16, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest to expand on what you want to know exactly. ICE77 (talk) 21:43, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Lager yeast

The origin of the lager yeast has apparently been solved. See 500 years ago, yeast's epic journey gave rise to lager beer. Mateat (talk) 23:07, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Problem solved? Well, some questions remain. Columbus came to America in 1492. He was the first European to make the journey as we still believe. How could Patagonian yeast have come to Bavaria before Columbus? The PNAS article should tell us (it doesn't). Bavarian brewing regulations from 1486 (and arguably even earlier regulations, but that's contentious) show that lager-brewing was already practiced at that time (see Karin Hackel-Stehr: "Das Brauwesen in Bayern vom 14. bis 16. Jahrhundert, insbesondere die Entstehung und Entwicklung des Reinheitsgebotes (1516)" Dissertation, Berlin 1987, pp. 77, 82, 89). It is nice to show a map with a galleon traveling from Patagonia to Europe in the 15th century (see the physorg link). However, Patagonia was much later reached by Europeans than the Caribbean (Columbus' destination). There was no traffic between Patagonia and Europe in the 15th century.

unsigned comment added by Ruschu (talk • contribs) 17:38, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

"Lager" as WW2 Nazi concentration camp

Any idea why Nazi death camps like Auschwitz are referred to as Lagers? For example by Auschwitz survivor Primo Levy?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.161.48.158 (talk) 18:41, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Check the etymology section. It states that 'lager' is derived from a word for storage. A concentration camp is where you store the people you're concentrating. Hence, Lager. It could also be called after a laager, which is a type of temporary military camp, though usually one composed of circled wagons or a temporary camp designed for armored vehicles. - Bardbom (talk) 04:51, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Unlike English the german language is not very precise in its vocabulary and has to composite at least two words to give a clearly differentiated meaning. Lager therefore can be used for storage (Vorratslager), for camp (Zeltlager), for bearings (Radlager), for deposit (Lagerstätte), for abutment (Widerlager), for description of a political party (konservatives Lager), and in poetic language even for bed (Nachtlager). And with prefixes it gets even more confusing: siege (Belagerung), sedimentation (Ablagerung), transfer (Verlagerung) or outsourcing (Auslagerung). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.119.237 (talk) 19:54, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

This article needs improvement

This article is not very well written and it needs to be improved.

The first thing I need to point out is that it does not clearly classifies lager types or, if it does, the classification is somewhat scattered. Personally, I would prefer to see a classification chart to clearly show something like this:

• Pale lager
  • Helles
  • Pilsner
  • Märzen
  • Bock
• Dark lager
  • Dunkel
  • Dopplebock
  • Schwarzbier

Another thing that would really help would be to associate each type of lager with at least 3 commonly sold brands. When I think of lager, I think of Sapporo, Zipfer, Grolsch, Spaten or Forst. It really would help to place some of these names next to each type of lager. That would be more informative and clear any doubt about what lager really means, especially in countries where the difference among beers is not understood and beer is just a generic term for a bunch of different things.

ICE77 (talk) 19:12, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Since I left my previous comment, more than 2 years ago, I haven't seen the introduction of a tree for the styles of lager beers with examples so I added the above to the article with two names for the pilsner. You are welcome to expand the list by adding additional examples but I would not clutter with more than 5 examples.

I am not sure the "Vienna Lager" is even a style. I would be inclined to say that it's just a geographical classification and not really a style.

Finally, I would be curious to know under what styles the followings would follow: Sapporo, Zipfer, Grolsch, Spaten or Forst.

ICE77 (talk) 23:11, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Lager vs ale flavor

Is there a difference between "lager" and "ale" that is tastable? --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 18:49, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Yes. Rather a lot of a difference. They're made differently, from different ingredients, by a different process using different yeasts and then they taste pretty different. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:48, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

There is a huge difference in flavor. Try a Pilsner Urquell (lager) and a Newcastle Brown Ale (ale). You will see the differene is huge.

ICE77 (talk) 21:53, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

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Etymology?

The etymology section doesn't really explain the origin of the term, only meanings. 2600:1700:CA10:18A0:B813:816A:C5B9:53E3 (talk) 03:45, 24 September 2022 (UTC)