Talk:Lafayette Street

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Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Houston Street (Manhattan) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 20:58, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

cul-de-sac

I doubt Henry Moscow on this. Where was the south end? Great Jones Street existed from the 18th century. Here is a different account, from Eric Homberger, Mrs. Astor’s New York, (Yale University Press paperback, 2004 [hardcover 2002]), p. 105:

“Lafayette Place was cut through from Art Street (Astor Place) south to Great Jones Street in 1826, reducing the size of the Vauxhall Gardens by one half.” Vzeebjtf (talk) 22:10, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

See this 1854 map and this 1859 map. (Use zoom feature.) Vzeebjtf (talk) 01:15, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The article is correct. This is from the NYCLPC's NoHo Historic District Designation Report:

A major change in the district's street pattern occurred during that decade with the opening of Lafayette Street between East Houston Street and Great Jones Street. In 1888, the Record and Guide advocated that Lafayette Place be extended to join Elm Street, a major north-south thoroughfare in lower Manhattan, to improve vehicle accessibility to the increasingly commercial street. It took the next nine years for the city to debate the plan and complete the property condemnations necessary to carry it out. The final plan included the construction of New York's first subway line along Elm Street and Lafayette Place. The total or partial demolition of many buildings located on the three blocks between East Houston Street and Great Jones Street began in 1897. The project was completed with the opening of the subway line after the turn of the century. The new thoroughfare incorporating Elm Street and Lafayette Place was renamed Lafayette Street for its entire length. The evidence of this street project is revealed in the exposed party-walls and oddly-shaped sliver lots found on Lafayette Street, south of Great Jones Street. (p.17-18)

So the south end of Lafayette Place was a Great Jones Street. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:23, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That is precisely my point. It was never a dead-end street, as Moscow claims. ("Cul-de-sac" means "dead-end street.") Vzeebjtf (talk) 14:25, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I believe you're misinterpreting the text. In any event, I'm fairly sure I've come across a reference to the privacy that the dead-end street afforded to its very rich residents, so I'll look around for another cite. In the meantime, since Moscow is generally accutrate, I'd suggest not changing the article. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:21, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Whose text am I misinterpreting? Do you agree that if Lafayette Place ended in Great Jones Street it was not a dead-end street? Vzeebjtf (talk) 23:09, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It depends on whether it connected with GJS or not. My interpretation is that it did not. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:11, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've looked through my library and find no sources that support Moscow's description. Given the evidence that you've presented, and the additional evidence of the sources on Google Books, I now believe that you are correct, so I'm going to remove "cul-de-sac" from the article. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:30, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Your change left a cite error. Vzeebjtf (talk) 00:04, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about that, a bot fixed it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:16, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Elm Place

I'm curious about this name (in the first line of the article). Is there a citation? It's not on this map. Vzeebjtf (talk) 12:35, 25 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Elm Street's northern end was Broome Street; Lafayette incorporated a different street, Marion Street, from Broome to a dead-end between Prince and Houston. (The house where President Monroe lived was on the NW corner of Marion and Prince Streets.) See map linked above. Vzeebjtf (talk) 04:34, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It certainly does seem from that make that Lafayette connected up to Marion Street (the current Lafayette bisects Jersey Street, an alley, just above where the Marian Street on the map ends. The cite in the body of the aryticle is from Forgotten NY, which says

Lafayette Street didn’t come into existence until the early 1900s, when its route was carved from the former Elm Street, Marion Street and Lafayette Place, and connected to Centre Street at the Municipal Building.

Also, on a more authoritative note, the article on Puck in the Encyclopedia of New York City (second ed., p.1058) says about the Puck Building

[Albert] Wagner [the architect of the building] ... supervised the moving of the west facade to accomodate the widening in 1899 of Elm Place (now Lafayette Street).

So it seems clear that there's a connection between a street called Elm Place and Lafayette Street. I don't know if Marion Street was re-named Elm Place at some point (nor do I know the year the map you cite is from), but that could have been the case.

I suggest that I remove the reference to "Elm Place/Street" in the lede, as uncertain and not all that important anyway, and alter the reference in the body to include Elm Place, citing the Encyclopedia. BMK (talk) 04:54, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. The map is from 1853. You're suggestion sounds good. Vzeebjtf (talk) 05:03, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It would be interesting if there was a map from between 1853 - when your map says "Marion Street" - and 1899 - when the Encyclopedia says "Elm Place" to see if and when the change took place. BMK (talk) 05:22, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There was still a Marion Street as of 1904 [1]. BMK (talk) 05:31, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The first mention I can find of a Lafayette Street (not Place) in Manhattan is this. (Scroll down to "New way to pierce tires") From the description, Lafayette was close to the Bowery when the event occurred, so it was probably the northern park of the street, not the part below Houston, that was being referred to. BMK (talk) 05:39, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Look at this map, from 1899. Vzeebjtf (talk) 05:46, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) OK, here we go:

ELM STREET OFF THE MAP
Lafayette, Name of Continuous Thoroughfare Laid Out by Alderman
The Board of Alderman yesterday adopted a resolution introduced by Alderman T.P. Sullivan changing the name of the street which runs from City Hall Place, near Chambers Street, north to Great Jones Street, now known as New Elm Street and Elm Street, and the street from Great Jones Street to Astor Place, now known as Lafayette Place, to Lafayette Street. This will make one continuous street from Chambers Street to Astor Place to be known as Lafayette Street.
The resolution requires the President of the Borough of Manhattan to renumber all the buildings on the street. Thus does the historic street name of "Elm" disappear from the city's maps.
(New York Times April 26, 1905)

Although this clears up the question of when the change happens, it still leaves a few things dangling, such as what happened to Marion Street, which is so obviously the route of Lafayette? Is it the "New Elm Street" referred to? What was "Elm Place" the Encyclopedia referred to, was it just a confusion between "Lafayette Place" and "New Elm Street".

I doubt I'm going to do any more digging tonight, this nugget was enough for me. BMK (talk) 05:55, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(re 1899 map) Excellent, I think this fills in some holes. Elm Street was widened, swallowing up most of Marion Street, except a vestigal tail at the end, connecting to Centre Street. Lafayette Place was extended south and connected to Elm Street. (Causing the "Elm Place" confusion). Then, in 1905 the whole thing was combined to make Lafayette Street, and eventually little 1-block-long Marion Street became part of Centre Street.

It's a theory, anyway. BMK (talk) 06:01, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent, indeed. Vzeebjtf (talk) 06:07, 28 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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