Talk:Léon M'ba

Léon M'ba was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
August 6, 2008	Peer review	Reviewed
September 7, 2008	Peer review	Reviewed
March 9, 2009	Good article nominee	Not listed

Current status: Former good article nominee

Biography: Politics and Government

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by the politics and government work group (assessed as Mid-importance).

Africa: Gabon Top‑importance

	Africa portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Africa, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Africa on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AfricaWikipedia:WikiProject AfricaTemplate:WikiProject AfricaAfrica articles
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Gabon (assessed as Top-importance).

Translation problems

Hi, this is User:Editorofthewiki from the Editorofthewiki/Nishkid alliance who are trying to conquer this article's translation. Could someone translate this: "Intimidés, trois députés UDSG rejoignent la majorité gouvernementale représentant désormais 32 députés sur 40 [ 35 ] ." I am very bad at French and this would be helpful. --I'm an Editor of the wiki^{[citation needed]} 23:05, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Léon M'ba/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Hi, I'll be reviewing this article. The rules for GA reviews are stated at Good Article criteria. I usually do reviews in the order: coverage; structure; detailed walk-through of sections (refs, prose, other details); images (after the text content is stable); lead (ditto). Feel free to respond to my comments under each one, and please sign each response, so that it's clear who said what.

When an issue is resolved, I'll mark it with Done. If I think an issue remains unresolved after responses / changes by the editor(s), I'll mark it Not done. Occasionally I decide one of my comments is off-target, and ~~strike it out~~

Sources & refs

(just a comment) I'll have to WP:AGF on most of the refs, as almost all are books I don't have, many in French. That also means I have to AGF on the neutrality of these sources and of the selection of content from them.
- That's why this article will not likely pass FAC. I can't find a native French speaker to verify it. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 23:58, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done Wikipedia:V#Non-English_sources says " Where editors translate any direct quote, they should quote the relevant portion of the original, non-English text in a footnote or in the article. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors." Please add the original text to the refs for all translated quotations. --00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

--00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Done. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 21:33, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Coverage

There's very little about policies M'ba advocated while seeking office or implemented while in office. --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- There is a bit. I'll search for more though. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 21:43, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The main text says about wives or children. How many survived him? And where are they now? --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- This is what the (academic) systemic bias against Africa has left us. We do not know. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 21:43, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Reed (1987) says quite bluntly that M'ba was and Bongo is a puppet of French commercial interests, backed when necessary by French military power. That was also my impression on reading through this WP article before I accessed Reed (1987). I don't know whether there are other views among academic analysts. However it's an issue that you can't avoid, as that would be both a significant gap in coverage and failure to present a WP:NPOV, by omitting the comments of a WP:RS that the article cites. --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Where should I put this though? That is the impression that the article is trying to give, and we can omit comments of a RS that this article cites if it is not particularly useful. IMO, given the facts of the matter presented in the article, this is the case. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 21:43, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re where to place it, I think you have 2 options: (a) a separate Assessment section, which is what I use in chess bios (see e.g. Wilhelm Steinitz or Emanuel Lasker); (b) insert individual points from the source at relevent points from the bio, e.g. (hypothetically) "this inciodent showed that he was a puppet".

Are you arguing that Reed's comments are not useful? If so, why are they not useful? Unless you can make out a very strong case, omitting them is a violation of WP:NPOV. I suggest you read Reed thoroughly and see whether he provides any explanations, and that you look for other sources that comment on M'ba's period in office. --Philcha (talk) 07:46, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

His mother's name, Louise Bendome, looks French rather than African. Is there a reason for this? --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can you please explain "evolved couples". --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What was the name of Léon M'ba's brother the priest? Did he achieve any senior rank in the chrch? --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Re "In 1909, M'ba joined a seminary to receive his primary education", I think "joined a seminary" would normally imply "to study for the priesthood", which would have been remarkable for a 7-year old. Do you mean the seminary had an attached elementary school, in which M'ba studied? --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The 2nd half of the translated quote "If on the one hand, the fundamental duty of educating the Fangs ... the first legitimization of the French authority on them" looks stilted in English and may be difficult for some readers to understand. Can you please re-phrase it? --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The lead says "he was issued a prison sentence after committing a minor crime that normally would have resulted in a small fine", while this section says nothing about a small fine. You can't introduce any content in the lead that is not in the text. --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Chef de canton

Why are there [] at the start of " "[m]issioned to enforce public order and ..."? --Philcha (talk)
What "large expenditures" did M'ba have to cover by the use of forced labour?
Googling for "a Kouyaté" suggests Kouyaté is the name of a tribe. Can you please clarify this. --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You should explain that Comintern's objective was to start Russian-style Communist revolutions in all countries, and use the ref at Comintern. The world was very different then, and few people still alive will remember Comintern. --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Pl wikilink Communist. --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is where a map of locations within Gabon would be useful. --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
How did M'ba think Gabonses / Estuaire society was "damaged by the colonial administration"? --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The Reed (1987) ref is allegedly avaialble online for free. Unfortunately its search facility was not working when I searched for "Gabon: A Neo-Colonial Enclave of Enduring French Interest". Can you please try to find a free copy and, if available, replace the non-free JSTOR URL. --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Exile in Oubangui-Chari

The map of Oubangui-Chari is not very useful, I think there's a better one at Central African Republic. I can use template:Annotated image to mark Gabon on that, and a few neighbouring countries. ---Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
At some point you should point out that the Fang, although recent imigrants ot Gabon, formed 1/3 of the population, per Reed (1987). This might be a good place. --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Governor-General Antonetti - of Gabon or Oubangui-Chari or some wider collection of territories? --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It seems the "Pahouin" are the Beti-Pahuin, a Central African ethnic "super-group" that includes the Fang. You should explain this, with a ref. --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"congeners" links to a disambig page. In this context I would guess it means something like "fellow-tribesmen". Can you please clarify. --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The translated quote is stilted, and "As he was intelligent, he exploited this situation to extort the people he had to administrate also the cabal which he had formed" is hard to understand. Please re-phrase. --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Return to Gabon and local politician

"where he was greeted exultantly by his friends" and "an important position" look like WP:PEACOCK phrases - unless you mean that his position as a store manager increased his political influence, which you would have to explain. --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Re "inter-African", would Pan-Africanist (in African Democratic Rally) be more expressive and accurate? --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Should wiki-link "Bwiti", as it was last mentioned a couple of sections ago. --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Re "His goal was to win indigenous administrative and judicial posts", you mean "for native Gabonese"? --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Where is Mitzic? --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Re "siding with the moderate position favored by Houphouët-Boigny while he did the same", does "did the same" mean "cut links with the Communists"? --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"became close with the French administration" does not look like normal English to me, although its meaning is clear. Can you re-phrase? --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
" his main opponent, Congressman Jean-Hilaire Aubame, who was M'ba's protégé and his half-brother's foster son" looks like it tries ot be too brief. Presumably has was M'ba's ex-protégé. --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Aubame was easily re-elected" - so what position did he already hold? --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Rise to power

"Though not elected, M'ba became the leader of the indigenous territory, and some of the UDSG began to ally themselves with him" - what "indigenous territory"? How did he become the leader if not elected? --Philcha (talk) 15:27, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"forester's man" may be unclear to many readers, I suggest "reprentative of the logging industry". --Philcha (talk) 15:27, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"bribed several UDSG deputies to switch their political party to the BDG" - "switch to the BDG" would be better, as we already known it's about parties. --Philcha (talk) 15:27, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"both parties were obliged to submit on 21 May 1957, a list of individuals that both agreed were suitable for election into the government" - obliged by whom? Who decided how many of each party's nominees were appointed?
"giving the party a majority with 29 of the 40 legislative seats" - "giving the BDG 29 of the 40 seats" would be better. --Philcha (talk)
"Well installed in the government" - "Now in control of the government"? --Philcha (talk) 15:27, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Images

The images used seem to have no copyright issues. However File:Afrique 32.JPG was the subject of an inconclusive deletion debate at Commons in Aug 2008, and contributes little to the article. I'd remove it. -Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Two maps would be useful: one showing Gabon in relation to neighbouring countries; the other showing locations witih Gabon mentioned in the article. There's a map of the Gabon provinces at Gabon, and I could use template:Annotated image to mark towns, etc. --Philcha (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Overall impression

I've paused the detailed review half way through "Rise to power". The article currently has serious problems:

Gaps in coverage and possible lack of WP:NPOV noted above.
Many failures to explain thing that are obvious only to experts in French colonial Africa.
A whole lot of poor writing that is unclear and / or clumsy. A lot of it reads like over-literal translations form the French sources.
Where translated quotes are given, you must provide a copy of the original. --Philcha (talk) 15:27, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Since I don't like quick-fails, I'm placing the review "on hold", which means you have a week to fix the whole article, not just what I've commented on so far. That's a lot of work and it's only fair to tell you that I doubt whether you can achieve it in a week. --Philcha (talk) 15:27, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest you read through some GAs and FAs on major politicians. At present there are none on African ones, and very few on others in ex-colonies. For English WP at least, articles on politicans in ex-colonies are more difficult than on "western" countries, as you need to explain much more of the background and to deal with issues like tribal politics, whether the colonial power manipulated the emerging political system, whether the country truly became independent, problems that ex-colonies' governments face (lack of money, lack of experienced politicians and adminstrators, customary behaviours that place loyalty to family and allies above honesty and fairness, etc.). --Philcha (talk) 15:27, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Result of review

Your message to me implied that I should mark this as a "fail", and that's what I'm doing. As you requested, I've provided some comments on Hubert Maga, and hope they will be useful for Léon M'ba too. Best wishes, --Philcha (talk) 10:25, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

- - - - - please add review comments /responses above this line - - - - -
If you want to start a new section of the Talk page while this review is still here, edit the whole page, i.e.use the "edit" link at the top of the page.

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Léon M'ba. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070902133400/http://www.acdis.uiuc.edu:80/Research/Ops/Pederson/html/contents/sect5.html to http://www.acdis.uiuc.edu/research/OPs/Pederson/html/contents/sect5.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 03:10, 7 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]