Talk:Koporye

Regarding ancient names of the place

The directions in WP:NC are only telling how to name articles about places, but it also says in several links that different names should be mentioned first thing in the beginning of the articles. Some browsing around WP shows that in most places where there are several names, they are also mentioned; the article about the Spanish city Alicante directly tells the name also in Catalan, the Inuit town Qaanaaq has a name in English, the German region Holstein has a Danish name, although the region never have belonged to Denmark (though it nabours), a lot of Irish places have names in Gaelic (there is actually a separate direction page on how to name Irish places) etc. In this case the name of the article is, as stated in the instructions, the official present name of the city, transscribed from cyrillic letters, that is Koporye.

The region, Ingria, has been inhabited with Finnish tribes since prehistoric times, as the distinguished user Ghirlandajo himself tells in the article about Kingisepp (where actually also is told the Finnish name, Я´ма, though transscribed it comes out as Yama instead of Jaama). See also the russian article Ингерманландия, chapter about Народы. Ingria belonged to Sweden 1609 - 1721, and also 1580 - 1595, (The latter is ignored in the Russian article) and therefor in a way to Finland, as Finland was a part of Sweden by that time. The Finnish tribes lived there until the Sovjet leaders gradually had them expelled all around the Union, mostly to Siberia. The last ones moved to Finland when the president of Finland (by that time Mauno Koivisto, as far as I can recall) granted them Finnish nationality in the 1980-90's. Thus geographical names in Finnish are a relevant part of the history of the region, and can't be neglected, whether you like it or not. Unless you come with some very heavy evidence that I shouldn't, and in that case also verified by some administrator, I will restore the name Kaprio in it within a few days. Islander(Scandinavia) 23:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

There is currently no convention guiding what names in what languages should be included in the leads of articles on geographic entities, not yet, anyway. From my experience, at this time inclusion of each controversial variant should be discussed by interested parties, and the final decision on whether or not to include a certain variant depends on the consensus reached. If there is no consensus, then it's better to avoid inclusion of the variant in question altogether. All in all, a good rule of thumb here is to consider whether or not the article contains any material that's related to the name variant. In this case, for example, if the article is to include materials about how this village relates to Finland, then it becomes more appropriate to include the Finnish name in the lead. The materials to be included should, of course, be subject to scrutiny of their encyclopedic suitability. The bottom line is if there is nothing of value to say about the Finnish connection in the article, then the inclusion of the Finnish name is useless as well. Hope this helps.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 15:46, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

• Only names used officially for the city are usually included. We don't include a Chinese name into article Cupertino, California just because 70% of its population are Chinese. `'mikkanarxi 15:54, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

By the way, only a historical names must be given, within the phrase "also historically known as Caporye in Swedish" or something similar. Other names are given to help browsing/reading historical docs related to the place in question, not for nationalistic purposes of "proving" who owned what. `'mikkanarxi 15:54, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Trouble is, "historical" is too vague of a definition.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

So, Ghirlandayo called in the cavallery with his/her fellows compatriots, eh? First, to refer to me as a "newbie" is close to personal offence. Half a year may not be a very long time, but in this community, where very few have been present more than perhaps 2½ years it isn't very little either in comparsion. I have only made some 100 edits at the English WP, but in the Swedish close to 600, among which some 30-40 entire articles, one granted UA. But that wasn't the main issue now. The example with Cupertino wasn't very good, when if following the same reasoning the Russian name in this case would be the one to remove..:) If we take another town close by; Bakersfield, there is mentioned its name in the local Native American language. (Cupertino has only 0,2% native inhabitants and was therefor hardly inhabited at all before the conquestadores came.)

Well, I thought I added to the article an interesting fact that I happened to know. That is the whole idea with WP, right? Imagine my surprise when it was almost instantly removed. I'm not a descendant of the Ingrians myself, but belonging to a minority, I am very sensitve to cases when minorities are bullied. There may not be more than a handfull of them left in the area, but there are still tens of thousands Ingrian Finns born there still living, and trying to erase them ever having existed would hurt them very mych. I don't see what Mikkanarxi is trying to say about "proving" who owned what. I am presenting facts, and naturally take offence when they are removed, in apparently equally "nationalistic" interests.

Anyway, if I understand right what Ezhiki is saying, which pro primo makes sense, and pro secundo is said in the authority of administrator, I'll have to write about the history of the region to be able to tell the fact that it has a name in Finnish. Okay, it will take me some time to dig up reliable sources to present in English, and is by my opinion a complicated way to solve a simple matter. And i appologize for never having been able to express myself briefly..:) -Islander(Scandinavia) 01:15, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Islander, if any of my comments pushed you or anyone else into "digging up reliable resources" and into writing content, I consider my job here to be well-done :). Best,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 13:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Kaprio

One only wonder why all marks to Vatja tribe has been deleted. The original inhabitants of the area. The historical name of Kaprio for Russian Koporje have existed more than 1.000 years as well as Jaama (Jamburg), Kukkosi, Kattila, Pihkaala. Ilmola, Pihlaava, Koppana etc with Sumajoki and Kaprionlahti (Bay of Kaprio). I do not understand why some persons who writes these articles have a tendency to classify all Finnish tribes history of c. 800 - 1323 as "Fiction with no prove".

Despite written documents starts only appear in 1200´s, mostly in Latin, the heritage is well documented in singed folklores. As an example of these, although being from early 1700 during the Great Northern War, is a singed version by an peasant womon who saw personally what happened and created a folklore named "Sota Narvan teinoilla" which is today the best document of what really happened there.

Lack of understanding Finnish and Estonian by the writers is clearly shown in case that they have not created any, even stub, article of Tver (Tihveri) Karelians ones numbered to 145.000. Even in 1926 their number is 140.567 persons who classifyd themselves as Karelians, many of them originally Orthodox Inkerikkos (Izhoras) who moved from Inkeri (Ingermanland) in 1617 - 1656 to Novgorod and Tver (Tihveri) areas in Russia.

JN ^{above edit was entered May 20'th 2007 from IP address 88.115.126.189}