Talk:Kaunas pogrom

Further reading

As of March 13 2008 version I have troubles verifying the existence of publications in the further reading section. If they are English translation of Lithuanian works (as I suspect), the full Lithuanian title and bibliographical data (per WP:CITE) should be provided; otherwise that info is close to useless.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:29, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

They are translations of Lithuanian works I am familiar with, but the article was a complete misquote of these works and a whitewash of the pogroms, evidently by Lithuanians, judging from the quality of the English. I added some facts and deleted what amounted to garbage (bad English, bad syntax, wrong facts and misquoted sources). I also added a real source in English that is verifiable. If this becomes a flame war I'll be back with even more eyewitness testimonies (published) as to what happened in June and July of 1941 in Kaunas. 78.60.98.100 (talk) 12:28, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Dov Levin, "Why Lithuanians killed their Jewish neighbors"

Where and when published? - Xx236 (talk) 14:05, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Levin, Dov. Dlaczego Zydzi byli mordowani przez swoich litewskich sasiadow? ("Why Lithuanians killed their Jewish neighbours?"), Instytut Studiow Politycznych (Institute of Political Studies), Warsaw-London, 2004 (in Polish) -The Gnome (talk) 06:41, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

No Lithuanian article?

I find it disturbing but actually it shows a lot, a lot about how cruel humans can really be — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.72.130.155 (talk) 13:16, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Partisans or "partisans"?

The article states:

"Stahlecker wrote that he had succeeded in covering up actions of the German vanguard (Vorkommando) unit and made it look like an initiative of the local population."

This statement is supposedly backed up by a Lithuanian text that is translated in English by Lithuanian-speaking editor Renata as follows:

"F. W. Stahlecker, using a squad of so-called partisans commanded by journalist A. Klimaitis (in fact, Klimaitis' squad was not subordinate to either LAF or the Lithuanian Provisional Government), began Jewish pogroms in Kaunas on June 25. In the same report of 15 October 1941, the General openly and in detail described the organized massacre of Jews: "[...] Suddenly, it appeared that it was quite uneasy to organize a larger-scale, organized Jewish pogrom. First we utilized aforementioned guerrilla commander A. Klimaitis, who was instructed on that matter by our small vanguard group operating in Kaunas. A. Klimaitis succeeded in organizing the pogrom in such a manner that it revealed neither our given orders nor our initiative. During the first pogrom on the night of June 25th to 26th, the Lithuanian partisans eliminated more than 1500 Jews, burned or otherwise destroyed several synagogues and burned the Jewish Quarter, which had about 60 houses. During the following nights, in the same manner, they neutralized 2300 Jews. Similar actions, modeled on the Kaunas pogrom, just on a smaller scale, occurred also in other Lithuanian cities; they also included communists that remained in those areas"."

However, the statement in the above text that "Klimaitis' squad was not subordinate to either LAF or the Lithuanian Provisional Government" is not supported by an independent source. What we have here is (1) a German general describing how the Germans "utilized... [a] guerrilla commander" without mentioning that the guerillas were commanded by or subordinate to the Germans, but simply "instructed on [the] matter", i.e. they were provided with assistance, and (2) the author of the Lithuanian book claiming, but without providing substantiation for his claim, that these particular guerillas were "not subordinate to either LAF or the Lithuanian Provisional Government." The referenced primary source is the German general. He speaks of Lithuanian partisans. If they were anything less than that, he would've described them otherwise - especially when reporting to his superiors. The author disputes the Klimaitis' "squad" were genuine partisans. We have to go by the primary source and the primary source is the German general. The clear conclusion from the referenced text is that the Germans initiated the pogrom and the pogrom was executed by Lithuanian partisans. -The Gnome (talk) 06:16, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose that Kaunas massacre of October 29, 1941 be merged into Kaunas pogrom. The subject of the two articles is identical and so, too, should be the content. The Gnome (talk) 08:38, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

It isn't identical, the pogrom was Lithuanian, the massacre rather German.Xx236 (talk) 13:30, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

The Kaunas pogrom was a part of the June Uprising in Lithuania.Xx236 (talk) 06:18, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Was this a war crime?

Ping User:Buidhe. Was this a war crime? Do you think there should be a category that's equivalent of pl:Kategoria:Zbrodnie kolaborantów i nacjonalistów litewskich? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:12, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, certainly it was a war crime. Is there a source that uses that exact terminology? IDK. (t · c) buidhe 06:19, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Controversy

This entire section reads like an apologia for collaborators. It should be removed forthwith. 2601:18C:4302:85A0:4DE1:DFC3:6357:ADAC (talk) 00:32, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Number of victims

The page says '68' (caption) or 'several dozens'. Reliable estimates should be listed. Xx236 (talk) 13:53, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Death Dealer

The article says it might have been a German, but the quoted blog suggests it was a Lithuanian Nazi, such possibility is not quoted. Xx236 (talk) 14:06, 13 March 2023 (UTC)