Talk:Kallar (caste)

Meaning Of Word Kallar

See in Tamil for most of the words there are several meanings if u are a tamilian you may definitely know it, here we peoples are not writing our own theory this meaning of Kallar matching padaiyachi,vanniyar kounder (Brave peoples) was agreed by Venkataswamy nattar, and our Honorable Chief minister Karunanidhi

Kallar Means "Brave People", Historians postulate the word Kallar Derived from Kalla means Black in Sanscrit and Tamil (கள்வனென் கிளவி கரியோனென்ப' - திவாகரம்} Historians postulate Dravidians were called by Aryans as Kalla.

Kalavar Means People who fight in Kalam(Battlefield), Kalavali Narpathu (களவழி நாற்பது), Tamil literature of the post-Sangam age Praises Kalavar and Kalam. Kallan means the person who doesn't have fear. The term Kallar represent a group of kallan's and they are well versed in fighting. They mostly served to Kings as solders. As the times goes they started to serve new kings who conquered, captured the kingdom and they have to stand on there own.

Please read கள்ளர் சரித்திரம் - நாவலர் பண்டித ந மு வேங்கடசாமி நாட்டார் and Thenpandi Singam by M. Karunanidhi.

There are lot of books were wriiten by other caste peoples about Kallar which clearly state their Bravery.

Thenpandi singam By Kalaingar. Maviran Pandara Vanniyan By Kalaingar. Pudhukkottai varalaru by Asif Alli. Palhuvetaraiyar by Palanimanicham

Hense you asked reference for 2000 surnames in use among kallars I like to mention. 1. கள்ளர் பட்டப்பெயர்கள் - Pulamai Venkathachala Vanniyar 2. ^ Kallar Marabinar in Pattapeyargal Oru Varalarru parvai, Pattangattiyar (Pattukati) By Sivabatham Therse books also crearly explain the History of those surnames.

I also want to state some proof from Tamil literature for the meaning of Kallar.

Kallarin Kilavi Kariyon enba-Purananuru

Kallar Kooman Pulli – Purananuru

Kalvar Kalvan Perumbidugu Muthirayan – South Indian Inscriptions.

Kallaral puliyai veru Kaniya – Purananuru.

Where, Thirumal where Mal Means Black and Krishna means Black Please see tamil nadu official website for Krishnagiri.

List of Historians postulate Kallars are Chola and Pallava.

Dr.Barnal (டாக்டர் பர்னலும்) Srinivasa Iyengar (ம. சீனிவாசையங்கார்) Vengaswamy Rao (வெங்காசாமி ராவ்) வின்சன் ஏ. ஸ்மித் என்னும் சரித்திர அறிஞர் 'புராதன இந்திய சரித்திரம் என்னும் தமது நூலில் பல்லவர் வரலாறு கூறுமிடத்தே கள்ளர் வகுப்பினரையும் இயைந்து கூறுகின்றனர்.

Please don't delete or damage articles which will spoil our valuable time.

if you want any more reference for any of the statements mentioned u r welcome to ask in Talk Page.

Thank You,

Rajnwiki (talk) 15:28, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes correct.

Kallan or Kallar has many meanings in Thamil language. After the Vijayanagara rulers established their administration in Tamil lands, they might have used different meaning for demeaning or degrading tamil communities. kindly listen Paarisaalan speech.

First of why the etymology section is required here. Please don't abuse any community's name. If they give thief meaning for Kallar, that is not good. If a person in community did assassination of some bad ruler, can the entire community be called as murderer? Some guys who wrote this page doing like this purposefully to demean. They show some references here and there and try to claim that entire community is like that. Their intention is not good.

I request Wikipedia to remove all unnecessary caste or community-based negative information. We have to look into present younger generation who do well in modern educations.

Etymology section is not required at all. If the readers want to know, they can go to good dictionary or grammar expert to get the correct meaning. I observed that some guys are keeping the meaning for Kallar as thief which is not at all appropriate.

Guys, please the below links.

paarisaalan speech.

'AtoZ Tamil' youTube channel. Tamil876 (talk) 17:37, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia Branding millions of people belongs to particular caste as thieves. People are not such a stupid to carry the bad name which was branded by others for generation and generation without shame.

There were royals, if we are mentioning those royal connections; Wikipedia says “Wikipedia is not place for cast promotions”. Yes it is acceptable. But, What Wikipedia really doing is caste demotion, insulting, and racism.

Kallar means Black people. But you are saying Thieves as per most of the historians, who are those historians, can please list out them. All Biritish colonial , imperial , racist people. I can show that kallar were against British in many ways during the british barbarian rule, then how can one expect neutral study from their enemy. But I can list out how many historians who are not saying kallars as thieves.

Edgar Thurton, Who is imperial worker, had motive to defame kallars by all means. I can show example in his works he recorded all here say things. When come to Tanjore Kallar he cunningly avoiding mentioning any thing deeply about them, he says that “Tanjore kalalr having royal surname”. Then he avoids the subject of tanjore kallar, and shifting his focus to other areas to insult kallars as much as possible . Thurstan is such a evil guy, and Wikipedia enforcing colonial rules once again.

INSULTING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WITHOUT ANY STRONG HISTORIACAL , LOGICAL EVIDENCE IS PURE RACISM ..77.110.82.173 (talk) 06:09, 25 December 2011 (UTC) WIKIPEDIA IS RUN BY MAFIA...TRYING INSULT PEOPLE ..NIT TAKING ANY ACTIONS..REFERING BASTART THURSTON BOOK AGAIN AGAIN ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.110.82.173 (talk) 08:26, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Picture

I have removed the picture as it is inaccurate; the uploader of the image has grouped people from different communities as belonging to the Kallar caste. In particular, Raja Raja Chola is not from this caste. Provide proof. Personal views and opinions are discouraged. ShivNarayanan (talk) 04:07, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, leaving the factual inaccuracies aside, I doubt if the uploader owned the copyright for the picture. Modifying copyrighted images using Photoshop and uploading them online does not make the uploader, the copyright owner.-The Enforcer_{Office of the secret service} 20:15, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Dear sir,

Considering Tamil language, it has many meanings in the word Kallar. Therefore, there is no requirement of etymology section in this page. It may give misinformation to the reader. All communities have thief. Showing one- or two-persons case study and some references, and claiming that entire community is thief is not appropriate. It is not good for modern tamil society.

kindly remove the meaning thief, no one will oppose that. or include that the sentence "Kallar has many meanings in tamil such as ......."

Postive modern society is required to develop good Dravidiyan ideology.

Thanks and regards

Dravidiyan. Tamil876 (talk) 17:46, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Cholas and Pallavas

The author of this article had added his personal view that the Cholas are Kallars. The reasoning provided was that some people from this community also use the same names as Cholas. This is a weak argument. The author also goes on to relate the Pallavas with the Cholas via Athondai. This is also not true. Please provide some sources to prove these claims. For starters the argument that the Pallavas were descendents of Ilandiraiyan is flawed for the following reason; Various sources suggest that Ilandiraiyan was a direct descendant of Karikala Chola. But recall that Pallavas already existed during the rule of Karikala, most popular among them being Trinetra Pallava. So Athondai definitely did not spawn the Pallava dynasty. Feel free to discuss. Cheers ShivNarayanan (talk) 04:20, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Neduman Anji

Require proof that Neduman Anji was a Kallar. ShivNarayanan (talk) 04:24, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Lacking Sources

Please provide references that araiyars, Cholas, Pandyas, Pallavas are Kallars. Many individuals have been named after peronalities like Gandhi, Subhash Chandra Bose etc. Some person having the name Alexander does not prove that he belongs to the same clan as Alexander of Macedonia. Similarly, popular Indian actors like Shahrukh Khan, Salman Khan and many others have the same last name as Genghis Khan. But they do not belong to the same clan as the Mongol. "Khan" is just a common Islamic surname. ShivNarayanan (talk) 23:34, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi ShivNarayan, I think you are either totally dumb or you do not know anything about the surname or how it is used earlier in ancient tamilakkam. Let me start by saying that people use their surname earlier to identify themselves.So for example if they have a surname as "Thevar" then it means they belong to the thevar caste. No Brahmin is going to have a surname as Thevar or no Vanniyar is going to have a surname as Thevar. A thevar surname before 1000 years ago is used only by a thevar. Please refer the names of ancient chola kings where they clearly bear the name thevar. eg., Kandarthitha Chola thevar. There is enough proof and evidence from the Palm inscriptions that his name was Kandaradhitha ChOzha Thevar. Please refer link http://www.shaivam.org/adkandar.htm . This is not one example. I can give you multiple examples and please let me know how do you need proof. Do you need scanned copies. Please let us know.

Thanks, Arun — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.183.114.149 (talk) 15:20, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Please do not insult other editors. Second, you're responding to a comment from more than 3 years ago. Third, what you provided is your own interpretation, and is not a reliable source. There are actually countless examples from India where surnames do not correspond to caste. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:09, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Provide correct sources for content

The user Tamilvendan (talk · contribs) has added irrelevant sources as none of the sources prove that the Cholas are actually Kallars.

1. In his version [1], under the section "During sangam", he has added the subsections "Thondaiman", "Adigaman" and "Malayaman". But even after repeated requests he has provided no sources to prove that the people from these communities belonged to the Kallar clan.

2. Again, in [2], under the subsection "Thondaiman", he has claimed that the Pallavas are an offshoot of the Cholas. He reasons that the word Pallava means "offshoot" and goes on to claim that Pallavas are an offshoot of Cholas. But where is the connection between Pallavas and Cholas and where is the citation that tells that "Pallavas are offshoot of Cholas"? This is a wrong claim as already explained by me the talk page(see my post "Cholas and Pallavas" above).

3. Again from his version in [3], under the subsections "Malayaman" and "Adigaman", he does not provide any source to prove that these people were Kallar. He argues that these people were Kallar as "Malayaman" and "Adigaman" are used as kallar surnames. This argument is flawed as shown by my explanation above (see "Lacking Sources" in talk page).

4. Once again in [4] under the section "Chola" and "Pallavas", he argues that these dynasties were Kallar because the members of the Kallar community use the same names. When a person is named after a famous personality it does not mean that the latter belongs to the former's community.

Finally to explain my concerns, I have reverted the edits of Tamilvendan (talk · contribs) as he primarily argues that the various kings and dynasties must be Kallar since some people from the Kallar community use the same names as the famous personalities. For example in [[5]] under section "Chola", he says (direct quote from his version) "Chera, chola and pandian are commonly called as Thevar to mean they are descendents of Lord Indra. But specially cholas were called by many Surnames all these surnames (Mel kondar, Chozangar, Thevar etc.) are now used by Kallars only shows that Cholas are from the Royal Kallar community". Basically he argues that since the Kallars now use the same names of the historical personalities, then it must mean that the historical personality belonged to the Kallar community. Sorry to say but this does not prove anything.

I can keep giving examples that show how his theory is flawed. For example, two popular Indian personalities, Feroze Gandhi and Mohandas Gandhi have the same surname but they are definitely not from the same community. Feroze Gandhi belonged to the Parsi community while Mohandas Gandhi belonged to the Modh community. Again, if some person at present has the name Feroze Gandhi, does that mean that he belongs to the Parsi community. Not necessarily.

ShivNarayanan (talk) 04:45, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Tamilvendan

I have never talked about athondai I have clearly mentioned pallavas are desendends of thondaiman Illandarayan he was one of the king ruling during sangam (300 BCE) but Karikala chola ruled during 100 BCE. I have not mentioned Illandirayan is a son of karikala but Divided him from Chola for that I have provided all reference please see references

You are clearly confused with name and surname. Name we can give to our self but surnames are given to someone by someone else to state the place they ruled, their bravery etc. and their descendents will be using the same surname for ever.

And as a Reply to your talk regarding Surnames you yourself agreed Khan is just a common Islamic surname. Hindus are not using it Right.

Gandhi title may be used by many clans but (Mel kondar, Chozangar, Palhuvetaraiyar, malayaman, malavarayar are used by kallar only why others don’t have these surnames?.

And not with a single surname I am arguing, there are plenty of kallar surnames you can see in copper plate inscriptions.

You need not to guess Kallars started using Historical surnames if you insist provide reference for that.

I think I have answered for all your questions still you have any doubt please ask specifically what is your doubt but please don’t delete anything.

This is my kind request

Tamilvendan(talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:15, 20 March 2009 (UTC).

Baseless Theory and POV

I stand my ground that your surname theory is wrong. I'm not bothered about your personal opinion. The Chola and Pallava names and surnames are not exclusively used by Kallar caste. Provide a reference for every one of your claims especially that "Pallavas are Kallars", "Pallavas are offshoot of Cholas" and "Cholas are Kallars". Adding content about the various dynasties without providing any reference that the various dynasties belonged to the Kallar clan and claiming that you have added reference is very shady. First let us get past the main dispute, that is give reference that the groups belonged to Kallar. The surname theory is not a proof for anything. So give source that quotes "Pallavas are Kallars", "Cholas are Kallars" and "Pallavas are offshoot of Cholas" here before reverting. You need to provide proofs that the various groups are Kallar before adding content and other sources about the groups themselves which you have refused to do until now. I'm beginning to think that you really don't have any. ShivNarayanan (talk) 16:42, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

First see the references clearly before asking question

As a reference to state Pallva’s are Kallar, I have added references. See reference no 2 and 11.

As a reference to state Pallva’s are offshoot of chola’s, I have added a reference. See reference no 11.

As a reference to state about Thondaiman ilandarayan there are many reference in Tamil Literature see Purananuru.

As a reference to state chola’s are kallar, I have added many reference from south Indian inscription and also many books (Rajarajan Meikirthigal, Kallar Marabinarin Pattapeyargal oru Varalarru parvai).

But I need not to prove various Groups are kallar you are keep on asking unnecessary questions finally you will ask me to prove kallar exist in tamilnadu. Don’t ask silly questions like prove maravar, Agamudaiyar, Vellala, Vanniar and Iyers are in Tamilnadu. it is known to everyone.

But anyway hence you asked me to prove various groups are Kallar I just want to inform you that, that reference was also provided earlier itself. see Reference No – 2

Not even a single line was written on my personal opinion everything was taken from books, Wikipedia, and the sites I have mentioned.

I don’t know what else you want, I have also seen many things you have added in Mudaliar page without any reference. you have contributed a lot in Mudaliar Page why you have not deleted the theory of athondai and offshoot theories of chola? if you are not bias first delete it and ask me question.

Tamilvendan (talk) 21:33, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Sources do not say what User:Tamilvendan claims

Reference 2 does not say that the Pallavas are Kallar. Source 11 is not even a reference. It is a short fictional story by novelist Venkatasamy Nattar. None of the inscriptions say that the chola and Pallava kings are Kallar and the books are fictional. Tamilvendan is adding wrong content and sources and trying to convince that the sources claim what he says when they actually do not. Reference 2 does not prove that that all groups are Kallar. It just a proof for Kallars using same names which does not prove that the dynasties were Kallar.ShivNarayanan (talk) 22:37, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Previously ShivNarayanan. Kallars and other Mukkulothars make a sizeable %age of Tamil population and have political influence TODAY due to DMK.

Hence they have been rewritting/vandalizing history by claiming every ruling clan as theirs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.75.56.206 (talk) 18:31, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

I guess you are belongs to Pallan Clan. Everywhere in the net you are typing the same sententance as above. Please dont think peoples just above pallar are ruling entire state. There are lot of politically, economically dominant social groups other than kallars. We are one of the oppressed group as same as yours. Dont assume yourselves as kallars are as powerful as Americans. We are not such a powerful people to rewrite history. In Tamilnadu most dominant caste group is Vellalar, not kallars77.64.12.77 (talk) 10:20, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Hello Rajendranwiki

Ms.Charubala Thondaiman, She is an MP, Maharani of Pudhukkottai, but not a Reformer. All the personalities I have mentioned here are officially taken from RajaRajan Kalvi Panbattu kallagam, an official Organisation for Kallar’s . To portray these personalities their Statues are installed in the main office in Chennai. If you want to add her name please add notable personalities. I have not added it because it is very difficult for me to segregate Kallar from Mukkulathor, and we don’t have any Official List for that in our organization. If you have any you are welcome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tamilvendan (talk • contribs) 05:13, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Kallars of Pakistan

I am a Pakistani from Jehlum region of north punjab,Pakistan. There are kallars present all over Punjab and are muslims. They are the peasants of punjab(not an insult) and work as mostly farmers and tenants. They are the socially opressed people and are considered low-caste or low-class by the rulling classes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.154.8.153 (talk) 09:06, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Kshatriya status

Do you know Pulithevan was the first one to fight against British long before the Veerapandi katta bomman?. Katta bomman known for looting near by palaiyams. Katta bomman actually wanted pay tax and surrender to british, but british insulted him, consequently katta bomman bodyguard (probably Maravan) killed a british soldier, that was what escalated war. Vellaiya thevan was the Army chief who fought on behalf of katta bomman and dead in the field. After losing war against british, Katta bommu ran for his life, and arrested while hiding in thondaiman (kallar king) land. Kattabomman glorified in movies because the significant presents of Wealthy Telugu people in Madras Presidency at that time. Don’t dream veerapandi was better than mukkulathor warrior like pulithevan, Maruthu pandiyan, velu nachiyar. Nayakkars gained power in TN by conspiracy, and how they established Vijaya nagara kingdom was also by consipiracy, and betrayal. They never could have won against Kallars in Direct War in Tamilnadu. Don’t call yourselves as warrior or Kshatriyas. You Jokers. LOL77.64.12.77 (talk) 12:03, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Kshatriyas/Brahmins castes are usually associated with Aryans. To be a Kshatriya, the ethnic group should have some indigenous Kshatriya origin (Suryavanshi, Chandravanshi, Agnivanshi or Nagavanshi) and also must have a martial / aristocratic / ruling history in which Brahmins did the coronation function. I have never heard of a brahmin coronation ceremony giving a Kallar Kshatriya status, let alone descend from Kshatriyas.

Even the Reddys and Nayaks of Andhra are not kshatriyas. Nayaks, Naickers, Naiks, etc is a very common surname throughout India and hard to distinguish. Therefore calling them kshatriyas is misleading. The Reddys are a rich Vaishya caste who ruled small areas of Andra for a very brief period and have lost their ruling power long ago. Among the authentic Kshatriya castes of South India are the Marathas, the Bunts of Tulu Nadu and the Nairs of Kerala (Malayala Kshatriyas division). There may be more, but this is out of topic.--115.134.83.48 (talk) 16:54, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Why don't you Study the book on Martial race of india.. you would find the Mukkulathor and Kallar References as Martial Race.. The fighters are termed as Khatriyas. Kallars, Maravans and Agammudayars were not given Martial race Status by the British because they never gave into them and never Paid the taxes to them and never were subjucted but instead termed as Outlaws.. butit is also found that they had the Code of conduct as the Samurais.. The martial race are Khatriyas... If you term the best fighters in the society as Khatriyas then Kallars are. they are also the Practioners of Varma Kallai.. Only the fighting Class of that age practiced it.. Which is turned into the chinese shaloin Kung fu.Bring out concrete proofs to support your term that Kallars are not a Martial race..If you belong to a martial race you will understand the different types of sucides(not out of fear) these warriors had like the samurais..If you think fighters are Khatriyas then truly the Mukkulathor are born To fight.. regarding the turning to british. I guess you better look into south indian History books more closely you will find freedom fighters Who were Kallars as Extremists in the Indian National Army of Subbash chandra bose.. Most of of the Regiments in Indian Army are old British regiments you will find Marathas, Sikh and even Gorkhas as part of their Army but only Madras Regiment which shows that Mukkulathor were not part of it and only a few turned to them so they could name it only Madras Regiment

Old post, but in case this editor is referring to Tyagi's Martial races of undivided India, published by Gyan books, that book is simply not a credible resource. Large portions of it appear to be lifted from Wikipedia, and the publisher Gyan is, in general, not the most reputable of publishers. I would suggest anyone looking for Kallar details take a close work at the authors and publishers they cite. MatthewVanitas (talk) 19:51, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Meaning of the word Kallar

Etymology of the word Kallar (கள்ளர்), Meaning "Brave People: In the language Tamil ,Single pronounce 'Kallar' has two different meaning.. கல்லர் means Theif. Kallar (கள்ளர்), Meaning "Brave People. Here if we talked about Kallar (caste) means "Brave People" (கள்ளர்) — Preceding unsigned comment added by VisweswarV (talk • contribs) 19:44, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Etymology of the word Kallar : Thief, One who Robs. Is this so hard to accept? Why is there nonsense such as "Brave People"? If you are too embarrassed to put the real meaning, then dont put it in. But please do not lie about the meaning of the word!--115.134.83.48 (talk) 17:02, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what is the case in Tamilnadu but among Sri Lankan Tamils, Kallar means robber. How can they claim noble origins ?90.46.147.177 (talk) 11:39, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

In tamil Kalvan word gives you lot of meanings like king, black, enemy, brave, karkatakam, musuru, monkey etc. if you dont know Tamil go out. idiots like you not welcome77.64.37.68 (talk) 06:47, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

why not? Thondaman Kallar was a king and noble. But he was no robber. Please move on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sasisekar (talk • contribs) 07:35, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Lankan brother, go and rebuild your country and after that you can teach us kallar varalaru. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sasisekar (talk • contribs) 07:42, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes correct.

Kallan or Kallar has many meanings in Thamil language. After the Vijayanagara rulers established their administration in Tamil lands, they might have used different meaning for demeaning or degrading tamil communities. kindly listen Paarisaalan speech.

First of why the etymology section is required here. Please don't abuse any community's name. If they give thief meaning for Kallar, that is not good. If a person in community did assassination of some bad ruler, can the entire community be called as murderer? Some guys who wrote this page doing like this purposefully to demean. They show some references here and there and try to claim that entire community is like that. Their intention is not good.

I request Wikipedia to remove all unnecessary caste or community-based negative information. We have to look into present younger generation who do well in modern educations.

Etymology section is not required at all. If the readers want to know, they can go to good dictionary or grammar expert to get the correct meaning. I observed that some guys are keeping the meaning for Kallar as thief which is not at all appropriate.

Guys, please the below links. Tamil876 (talk) 17:56, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

I do accept that Kallars means Robber because going to the myth of the rish's wife being raped by indiran.. When the rishi arrived meantime the lady had given birth to 3 boys..seeing the rishi one boy went up a tree (maravan). one boy hid behind the door so (Kallan) and the third stood there and stared at the rishi (agammudayan) sometimes it is also believed to be derived from the word Kala(black) and they were doing Dacoitory and were also Cattle theives during british era.. but Kallars are known for fearlessness and Maravans as Brave warriors and Agammudyan as one with a good heart or pride because it was believed a Kallan because of his fearlessness will change into a Maravan and then turn into a agammudayan by his deeds..Someone also commented on Raja Raja chola not being a Kallar.. I want to bring it to that person's notice that ancient kallars had elongated ear lobes till their shoulder which was made possible with wearing lead ear rings and long hair.. If you would notice Raja raja's ear lobes they are elongated to the shoulder in most of the pictures of his statues or paintings.. If you can produce an evidence of the caste Raja raja belonged then it would be great..Kallars had the code of conduct like the Samurais but they were not classified as Khatriya's by the british unlike the sikhs and others because they never gave into subjuction and instead the British termed them as outlaws because Kallars never paid the tax and they demanded why the Tax needs to be paid when the water came from the Sky and Crops from the land. their Favourite weapon was Valaikattai.. a boomerang and it was believed that the Kallan would select his weapon and it will stay with him for his lifetime..

The information that I have put is in Reference to Edgar Thornston's "tribes of south india" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.64.67.146 (talk) 21:52, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes correct.

Kallan or Kallar has many meanings in Thamil language. After the Vijayanagara rulers established their administration in Tamil lands, they might have used different meaning for demeaning or degrading tamil communities. kindly listen Paarisaalan speech.

First of why the etymology section is required here. Please don't abuse any community's name. If they give thief meaning for Kallar, that is not good. If a person in community did assassination of some bad ruler, can the entire community be called as murderer? Some guys who wrote this page doing like this purposefully to demean. They show some references here and there and try to claim that entire community is like that. Their intention is not good.

I request Wikipedia to remove all unnecessary caste or community-based negative information. We have to look into present younger generation who do well in modern educations.

Etymology section is not required at all. If the readers want to know, they can go to good dictionary or grammar expert to get the correct meaning. I observed that some guys are keeping the meaning for Kallar as thief which is not at all appropriate.

Guys, please the below links.

please listen Paarisaalan speech

and

'AtoZ Tamil' YouTube Channel. Tamil876 (talk) 17:57, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Tidy

I have tried to tidy up the intro and certain sections of the article. But a lot of work still needs to be done. Sincere request to who ever is adding immediate tamil transliteration. Please exercise some restraint as this only makes it that much more convoluted. Imagine a punjabi or marathi or some non-tamil person trying to read the article. thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sasisekar (talk • contribs) 04:06, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Chera,Pandiyan and Kalabaras

Kalabaras and Cheras are not Kallars there are no Proofs for that. Some pandian kings may be Kallars but Most of them were Maravars. cheras may be Agamudaiyar, but presently there are no proofs to state that, available proofs about Cheras are also less.

Pulli is not a kalabara King; He was a Kallar King Who Rulled Thiru vengadam.

Rajnwiki (talk) 15:45, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Pandyas were Maravars. I did not see Maravar article when I added here. But Cheras were Kallars. The kings were called Villavar Kon. Please read Chera article and Villavar article here. I have not added anything to these pages. In Villavar page, the Villavars are also called as Eyinars (Ayyanars). They are a clan of kallar. Ayyanar chief is still worshipped as Kaval deivam. [6]

Kallar is only an umbrella name for many clans. Cheras are kallar.

The kallar clans were allies of their monarchs and wreak havoc in neighbouring kingdoms at the behest of their kings. But at times when their own kings lost the wars they would be stuck behind enemy lines and not all were able to dissolve into the common population. So they resorted to cattle lifting for sheer survival. They came to be generally called as kallar and the name stuck. Sasisekar 04:30, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Hai Sasisekar, this is realy a wrong theory, anyway i just don't want to delete your work, please let me do some minor correction, i still dont say chera's are not kallar but there are no proofs to state cheras are kallar. so let us make changes in a meaningful way, i am happy if you add some good references. you can also talk in my talkpage directly. Rajnwiki (talk) 15:45, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism

Your statement, Kallar are the descendants of the eyinar is never accepted, eyinar are not belongs to mukkulathor.

There are lots of Puranas about Kallars, like Kallakesari puranam, Puviindra puranam and many kallar Autors written books like Kallar sarithiram, Kallar kula varalaru, kallar patta peyargal oru varalarru parvai, and lot of official kallar organizations like Kallar peravai, rajarajan kalvi panbattu kalagam, nowhere kallars are stated as Eigners or villavars.

Dr. Pitchappan have found the ancient DNA marker M130 in the blood of Piramalai Kallar that links them to the very first modern humans who migrated out of Africa and travelling through the southern coastline of Asia that eventually reached Australia. It was also proved the DNA of Mukkulathors (Kallars, Maravar and Agamudaiyars) were related and it is Distinct from other Caste Peoples.

Many caste peoples clime that kallars are desendents of their caste but there is no proof for their claims, it is not correct to claim kallars a huge population(60 lakhs) are desendents of less populated Villavar. And it is not entertained to add some other caste in kallar caste page.

And also historians and kallar authors newer postulate kallars are kalabras, kalabras are great rulers were rulling tamilnadu for more than 200 years, but they are not kallars many historians postulate kalabras are Kanadigas and not tamils, so please don’t link kallars with Kalabras. Rajnwiki (talk) 04:07, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

And you know this because? Kalabhras are tamil only. At one time the Pallavar were called persian. Kalabhras were not recognised because they embraced Jainism. But they are tamil. Historians support this theory: [7], [8]. Villavar are kallar. They did not disappear into the oblivion. thank you. Sasisekar (talk) 03:10, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism

Your statement, Kallar are the descendants of the eyinar is never accepted, eyinar are not belongs to mukkulathor.

There are lots of Puranas about Kallars, like Kallakesari puranam, Puviindra puranam and many kallar Autors written books like Kallar sarithiram, Kallar kula varalaru, kallar patta peyargal oru varalarru parvai, and lot of official kallar organizations like Kallar peravai, rajarajan kalvi panbattu kalagam, nowhere kallars are stated as Eigners or villavars.

And it is not entertained to add some other caste in kallar caste page it is completely vandalism.

Rajnwiki (talk) 05:22, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Your theories are awful. Summa linking, branchingnu. I have given a direct link for Cheras. Kalabhras are tamil. Moonu peru nandi mathiri, they are seated in power. How can some foreign guy raze them all of a sudden? Were the 3 armies so impotent? In empires all over the world, religion is the centre of power. The vatican always played a strong role in the european kingdoms. But Kalabhras did not favour any one religion so all these people associated with temples lost power. If they were not tamil they would not have encouraged marvelous works like manimekalai, silapadikaram etc.,First stop making this page ugly. Sasisekar (talk) 05:28, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Your statement, Kallar are the descendants of the eyinar is never accepted, eyinar are not belongs to mukkulathor.

There are lots of Puranas about Kallars, like Kallakesari puranam, Puviindra puranam and many kallar Autors written books like Kallar sarithiram, Kallar kula varalaru, kallar patta peyargal oru varalarru parvai, and lot of official kallar organizations like Kallar peravai, rajarajan kalvi panbattu kalagam, nowhere kallars are stated as Eigners or villavars.

Please answer for the above questions, I don’t know why you unnecessarily stating about villavar in Kallar page if you belong to that community write about Kallar in villavar page don’t spoil our page.

And it is not entertained to add some other caste in kallar caste page it is completely vandalism.

Please read history books don’t you know about vijayanagara dynasty are they not the foreign guy? Muslims are not the foreign guy? Please don’t assume yourself something. Rajnwiki (talk) 13:47, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I HAVE A DOUBT CAN ANY ONE CLEAR IT??

hello friends,,,i'm new to history..In this page i've seen a term called paluvettaraiyer..near ariyalur there are two places called keela paluvur and mela paluvur and thalampettai paluvur belongs to paluvettaraiyers(they built some temples also)..in those all 3 places only vanniyars were living..i'm sure..and there is a place called GANGAI KONDA CHOLAPURAM which is the capital of cholas from RAJENDRA CHOLA 1 to 1279 the end of chola dynasty available near at JAYAMKONDA CHOLA PURAM(ARIYALUR district)...And also some other places like CHOLA MADHEVI,VEERA CHOLA PURAM,CHOLAN KURICHI,KADARAM KONDAN(constructed by rajendra for the victory over kadaram),AYUTHA KALAM(where chola weapons avail),UL KOTTAI(CHOLA PALACE)..ETC..IN all the above mentioned places vanniyers only living..How this could be possible..how can vanniyars replace kallars(PLUVETTARAIYERS and CHOLAS)from the above mentioned places..was they are migrated from other places or invaded from somewhere?..and i heared that chola dynasty comes to an end by pandiyas..so pandiyas are the invaders.. then from where vanniyars came???.....and i hearded that pandiyas occuipies the land upto tanjore during and before starting the war against cholas..it may be true because in the north region of tanjore the vanniyers are living(like thirumala padi and etc)...i'm not saying this details by reading i'm living in this area..so pls try to tell me a logical reason for my question...and thanks in advance for clearing my doubt... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.97.159.164 (talk) 11:25, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

vanakam please explain who is th KULA THEIVAM for Thevar,or Kallar,Maravar,Agamudaiyar... and also pls tel me,is there any Kallar or Thevar stay in Sithambaram? thankyou.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.120.231.174 (talk) 06:19, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Reply for your Doubt

As a kind reply to your question i am also living in Tanjure 50% of tanjure populates are Kallar, I think you know very well tanjure is the capital of Cholas, you can confirm this with any surveys available. That’s why Mps and MLA candidates were kalars, Present Mp Palanimanicham is also kallar. The Nearby surroundings like trichy and Puddhukkottai is also highly populated by Kallars only, as you aware puddukkottai king Thondaiman is also kallar. Trichy MP Kumar and was opposed By Sarubala Thondaiman both are Kallars. Kila Paluvur and Mela paluvur is also Highly Populated by Kallars. Sidambaram also has significant kallar population Mukkulathor Sangam Leader Sreedhar Vandaiyar is from Sidambaram only.

Kula(Primary) Theivam (God) for Kallar Is Sivan, some (10%) has Vishnu. 124.30.171.121 (talk) 17:30, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Dear friend, Kallars in Tanjore regions are natives to this region. Chola’s army soldiers are became a Kallars as per Periyar Ramasaamy, anyway, Presence of Kallars in these regions can be proved by Rajaraja cholan inscription in Tanjore Big temple. He donated “tax free” lands to kallars those who shed their blood to protect motherland, the inscription says “thaaiman kaakka uthiram kottiya kallar kula maravarkalukku uthirapatru entra vari neekkiya nilam koduththu” . And some of the pattams of kallar are going back to karikalan cholan period like Uranthai kondar (uraiyoor, capital of karikala cholan), uranthai aandar etc.,

As for as vanniyars are considered, in north Tanjore including Mayavaram, Sirkali they are not native to these areas. They are usually tracing their origin to Mathuranthakam, cuddalore area, few salem, villupuram area. They may be migrated during Nayaks period to work in farmland. Eventhough Vanniyars are warrior clan, they are peaceful farmers too. They are not rebellious in nature. That may be reason of vanniyar peasants in nayakkar landlords areas. Present day large population of vanniyars at border area of Tanjore are cultivating Temple Lands and nayakkar lands. You can find Nayakkar landlords in north Tanjore Area (I mean Mayavaram area). But Kallar, Agamudaiyar are living their from medieval Chola period onwards.77.64.12.77 (talk) 10:11, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

he is not asking about that.he asked about ariyalur thats also a capital of chola empire you can check it in anywhere.Vanniyar only cholas not kallars. Duryodhanan Ajith (talk) 21:39, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Deleting Relevant Data

I don’t understand why peoples are deleting some information’s, which is very relevant for the topic and was agreed by most of the Historians, and even by the chief minister of tamilnadu (Karunanidhi).

Even most of the tamilians knows cholas are kallars. And in most of the cinemas and songs it is been portrayed. Deleting the article and relevant information is truly a type of Vandalism. Please don’t do so in future. Rajnwiki (talk) 15:24, 13 February 2011 (UTC) KALLAR POPULATION:

Kallar population mentioned there is not including all kallars. This kallar population is those who are in MBC list. Thanjai Kallars are in BC List. and kallars other districts those are not included in goverment specified list are also in BC list. please remove that 17 lac add population77.64.8.194 (talk) 08:29, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Reliable sources for Kallar history

I don't have time to dig into it yet, but this book seems to have some great details about legendary Kallar history and the royal family: http://books.google.com/books?id=d8k98lBxwM4C&pg=PA16&dq=pudukottai+royal+kallar&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false MatthewVanitas (talk) 21:01, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Another book, which discusses Kallar royal ties, and has a great (post-colonial) description of how the British labeled the Kallar as thieves due to British non-recognition of other forms of rule. Should be a good contrast to British sources, from a more modern perspective: http://books.google.com/books?id=cegr6zH9PFEC The hollow crown: ethnohistory of an Indian kingdom. Nicholas B. Dirks. Worth reading.

And another, particuarly on Kallar regional rule: http://books.google.com/books?id=OpxeaYQbGDMC&pg=PA137&dq=Pudukottai+kallar&hl=en&ei=i_J4TpSWLrSjsQKtzMHIDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false Vijayanagara. By Burton Stein. Also has some great data on kaval, the taxes levied by Kallars on travelers in exchange for protection; it appears this was one of the behaviours the British deemed criminal, but some later scholars have described as a totally legitimate service provided by Kallar society. Lots of interesting takes here. MatthewVanitas (talk) 20:09, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Major cleanup September 2011

I've undertaken a cleanup of the article. At the moment focusing largely on format issues, and finally getting a decent cite for the evidently controversial (but well-attested) "thief" etymology. The basic cleanup is done, and there are a few points that come next:

• For the Tamil-language sources, are some of them available online? Can we get links if so? And in either case, can we add a transliteration or translation of the title, the author's name in Latin script, and the publisher and date? It's great to have the title Tamil spelling (for searchability, particularly), but it'd be helpful to have the other basic info in Latin script.
• The three sub-sections of the "Sangam" section all appear to be OR, basically saying "the Kallar use X name, so this king must have been Kallar." Are there any RSs supporting this, or should we just delete the section?
• A lot of caste articles have an over-emphasis on British Colonial history, partially because we have a lot of references for that period. This article swings the other direction, being mostly medieval history, so I'll take a stab at adding at least a small section of colonial history, and if possible post-1947 history.

Overall, this article is heading positive directions, and it'd be great to get some comments from other editors. MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:17, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia Branding millions of people belongs to particular caste as thieves. People are not such a stupid to carry the bad name which was branded by others for generation and generation without shame.

There were royals, if we are mentioning those royal connections; Wikipedia says “Wikipedia is not place for cast promotions”. Yes it is acceptable. But, What Wikipedia really doing is caste demotion, insulting, and racism.

Kallar means Black people. But you are saying Thieves as per most of the historians, who are those historians, can please list out them. All Biritish colonial , imperial , racist people. I can show that kallar were against British in many ways during the british barbarian rule, then how can one expect neutral study from their enemy. But I can list out how many historians who are not saying kallars as thieves.

Edgar Thurton, Who is imperial worker, had motive to defame kallars by all means. I can show example in his works he recorded all here say things. When come to Tanjore Kallar he cunningly avoiding mentioning any thing deeply about them, he says that “Tanjore kalalr having royal surname”. Then he avoids the subject of tanjore kallar, and shifting his focus to other areas to insult kallars as much as possible . Thurstan is such a evil guy, and Wikipedia enforcing colonial rules once again.

MENTIONING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WITHOUT ANY STRONG HISTORIACAL , LOGICAL EVIDENCE IS PURE RACISM ..77.110.82.173 (talk) 06:08, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes correct.

Kallan or Kallar has many meanings in Thamil language. After the Vijayanagara rulers established their administration in Tamil lands, they might have used different meaning for demeaning or degrading tamil communities. kindly listen Paarisaalan speech.

First of why the etymology section is required here. Please don't abuse any community's name. If they give thief meaning for Kallar, that is not good. If a person in community did assassination of some bad ruler, can the entire community be called as murderer? Some guys who wrote this page doing like this purposefully to demean. They show some references here and there and try to claim that entire community is like that. Their intention is not good.

I request Wikipedia to remove all unnecessary caste or community-based negative information. We have to look into present younger generation who do well in modern educations.

Etymology section is not required at all. If the readers want to know, they can go to good dictionary or grammar expert to get the correct meaning. I observed that some guys are keeping the meaning for Kallar as thief which is not at all appropriate.

Guys, please see the below links.

Paarisaalan speech about Kallars

Kallar meaning in

'AtoZ Tamil' YouTube Channel Tamil876 (talk) 18:03, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Kallar means thief. They were thieves till the 19th century when christian missionaries civilized them

Kallar means thief. Also they were considered criminal tribes.

http://books.google.com/books?id=aqKSTs4ajsAC&pg=PA193&dq=Thevar+criminal+tribes+of+india+cambridge&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gUobT-nRKqr9iQL5y5jgCA&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=criminal&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=LvYcAQAAMAAJ&q=kallar+thief&dq=kallar+thief&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IGEbT_-qFuGuiQKt9_WXCA&ved=0CEUQ6AEwAw

http://books.google.com/books?id=03qFAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA581&dq=kallar+thieves&hl=en&sa=X&ei=D2IbT_aaLKOpiAKduKStCA&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=kallar%20thieves&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=s4MUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA99&dq=kallar+thieves&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aGIbT-juHoSZiQLIiZWbCA&ved=0CGEQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=kallar%20thieves&f=false — — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sharma007007 (talk • contribs) 01:17, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

http://books.google.com/books?id=rxQbAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA82&dq=kallan+thief&hl=en&sa=X&ei=92MbT_ylCY_XiQK-zuW7CA&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=kallan%20thief&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sharma007007 (talk • contribs) 01:19, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

http://books.google.com/books?id=Hwsv331R2D8C&pg=PA199&dq=kallar+thief&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FPJcT4utLKmZiAL08NnZCw&ved=0CFkQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=kallar%20thief&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=H4q0DHGMcjEC&pg=PA105&dq=kallar+thief+vijaya+ramaswamy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lfJcT8D9OeGViQLh8KnRCw&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sharma007007 (talk • contribs) 18:45, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Sharma, two things: can you format the above links by plugging them into reftags.appspot.com? That will turn them into formatted footnotes, and then you can remove the <ref> and </ref> markings around them to show them as basic cites. That way we can tell the author, title, and date of each book, rather than just having a bunch of links. Secondly, please don't forget to sign your posts by typing ~~~~ or hitting the "sign" button at the end. MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:57, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Sharma007007 (talk) 19:21, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

No disrespect to any caste or community. But there are many refereences which clearly state that Kallar means thief. There is not a single reference to state that kallars were related to chola, chera or pandya. ALl articles clearly mention that Kallars were once ( till 19th century ) involved in banditary and thief. Please provide more references and any how editors like Mathewvanitas and sitush make sure all articles are as per wiki policy and I am not giving false information.

Also all historical documents point to the fact that chola, chera and pandya are suryavanshi and chandravanshi. The only suryavanshi in south india are Velama, Varma , Gounder and certain brahmins of bharadwaja gotra. Sharma007007 (talk) 23:03, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes correct.

Kallan or Kallar has many meanings in Thamil language. After the Vijayanagara rulers established their administration in Tamil lands, they might have used different meaning for demeaning or degrading tamil communities. kindly listen Paarisaalan speech.

First of why the etymology section is required here. Please don't abuse any community's name. If they give thief meaning for Kallar, that is not good. If a person in community did assassination of some bad ruler, can the entire community be called as murderer? Some guys who wrote this page doing like this purposefully to demean. They show some references here and there and try to claim that entire community is like that. Their intention is not good.

I request Wikipedia to remove all unnecessary caste or community-based negative information. We have to look into present younger generation who do well in modern educations.

Etymology section is not required at all. If the readers want to know, they can go to good dictionary or grammar expert to get the correct meaning. I observed that some guys are keeping the meaning for Kallar as thief which is not at all appropriate.

Guys, please the below links.

please listen paarisaalan speech. Tamil876 (talk) 18:09, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Mathewvanitas I am not sure how to format them. Please help.

Also Indian authors and books by GOVERNMENT OF INDIA clearly mention that kallar means thief.

http://books.google.com/books?id=FvjZVwYVmNcC&pg=PA619&dq=kallar+thief+palai+tamil&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gyZhT_qtBoOCmQX_v-iRCA&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=kallar%20thief%20palai%20tamil&f=false

History of agriculture in India, up to c. 1200 A.D. By Vinod Chandra Srivastava, Project of History of Indian Science, Philosophy, and Culture The above book is published by government of india. Sharma007007 (talk) 23:17, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Sharma, as of this current version, the "Etymology" section notes both the "thief" and the "black" theories of the origin of Kallar. I think this is a reasonable compromise: there appear to be reputable sources discussing both claims. We are not here to fight about which is correct, but instead to depict mainstream theories and arguments. I would oppose removing any mention of "thief" given that sources definitely cover it, but would also oppose giving it WP:Undue weight or letting it overshadow the entirety of the article.

So far as how to format GoogleBooks links: please note what I posted above. Simply to to http://reftag.appspot.com, take your gBooks link and paste it into the window, and hit the submit button. The application will then display a series of fields showing the Title, Author, etc. according to GoogleBooks, and at the bottom will be a set of Wikipedia-formatted text which you can copy-paste here to the discussion. This make it much easier than just pasting lengthy GoogleBooks links, which we can't recognise and judge unless we click each individual link.

In summary, given that we have reputable arguments for both sides, both "black" and "thief" theories should be listed. MatthewVanitas (talk) 15:07, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Why did some one delete my edit? I gave the reference from the same book which is used in Link 7. How is this credible? Arjunnattar (talk) 14:46, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Because, as I explained on your talk page, it's not actually the author making that claim, and the author does not state that it's a reliable, "true" statement. It's merely the claim of one of the people he interviews. And that one person's opinion isn't important enough (see WP:DUE) to be included here. And, anyway, the article doesn't say that Kallar are/were all thieves...it simply says that that's what the name originally meant. Qwyrxian (talk) 15:16, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

The "thief" etymology is again being challenged, even though it is sourced to Dirks. I have the Dirks book in front of me and it says on p. 242, "As we noted at the beginning of this chapter, the very word Kallar means thief in Tamil ..." Page 204 (the second page of the chapter) does indeed make that same correlation. - Sitush (talk) 23:19, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Interesting topics for expansion in Kallar

A few suggestion on topics which need expansion here clearly footnoted to RP:Reliable sources:

• There's something called the Kallar Voluntary Settlement which occurred in the early 20th C.; apparently a colonial attempt to get the Kallar to join mainstream society and to improve quality of life. Sounds pretty fascinating, economically.

• Most of the gBooks hits are getting "Snippet view" (which is not preferred for footnotes), but apparently the traditional clothing of the Kallar is interesting. At least one source notes an interesting point about Kallar women washing their clothes as they wear them, which sounds like an neat custom.

• Whether justified or not, some description of the Kallar's designations under the Raj, such as MBC (Most Backward Caste) or "Criminal Caste". Again, these should not be given as endorsements of British imperialism, but rather historical description of the narrative surrounding the Kallar.

• Some info on religious and dietary customs would be good to have; in particular I've seen a few mentions that Kallar were sometimes distillers

• There appears to be a lot of good modern scholarship re-examining the "criminal" allegations towards the Kallar, and whether those were (as has often occurred) rather ironic Colonialist accusations based on the Kallar doing pretty much what the Brits did: find weaker people and take their stuff. So more of running a semi-government and "taxing" or applying "tolls", and less sneaking about and stealing things. So there might be a lot of profit in examining some recent scholarship. MatthewVanitas (talk) 15:42, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Suggested topics for expansion

• Kallar customs of long-hair and ear piercing/stretching
• Kallar practices of female infanticide
• Kallar conversions to Christianity
• Kallar relations (good and bad) with neighboring communities; there is some mention of "anti-Kallar associations", vigilantes/militias in some GoogleBooks
• Louis Dumont apparently did a lot of anthropological work on the Kallar in the 1970s or so
• We need photographs, public domain photographs. Maybe some old ethnological pictures to show historical attire?
• When searching GoogleBooks, don't neglect to use the multiple spellings: Kallar/Kallan/Kalian/Collery, etc.

Just a few suggestions. MatthewVanitas (talk) 20:13, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

The first three topics you've mentioned here appear to be common to most rural communities native to the southern part of Tamil Nadu. Though they were many Kallars who adopted Christianity, they weren't of much significance and the Kallars never converted en-masse like the Nadars and Paravars. I have books of Edgar Thurston with pics but belonging to the colonial era, they are tinged a bit with racism.-Ravi_{My Tea Kadai} 06:21, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

All these are excellent topics. I will do some reading and post the views. Thanks Mathewvanitas. Sharma007007 (talk) 16:03, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

My recent reverts

I have twice today reverted some additions, the last occasion being this edit. These reverts were for numerous reasons. Those include:

• sourced content was removed, mostly with no explanation and always with an inadequate one
• Indic scripts were reinstated, despite the consensus - see User:Sitush/Common#Scripts for more info
• the general tone was POV-y
• the additions were unsourced

I am not bothering trawling back through the history of this article but, if my memory serves me right, the contributions appear to be a reinstatement of a poor, old version without discussion. - Sitush (talk) 12:45, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

And now another newly registered user has appeared, making exactly the same edits. I am treating this as vandalism until some sort of discussion starts ... and I am tempted to do the obvious. - Sitush (talk) 03:03, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

False boomerang

Is the sentence "Though described as a "false" boomerang, other writers indicate that it was capable of returning to its thrower, and also noted the weapon was used in deer-hunting" really helpful? I've seen it said on several occasions over many years that the idea of boomerangs being designed to return to their thrower is a myth, at least in the Australian aboriginal sense. I'm not digging around to verify that but I wonder if the comparison contained in the first two subphrases here might be synthesis, only part of which is sourced. I cannot see the source but note that it is old (1880). Does that source actually support both subphrases? - Sitush (talk) 17:27, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Balfour as a source

Balfour's Cyclopedia is yet another of the many poor sources written during the period of the British Raj. It relies heavily on the output of such dodgy gentlemen-scholars as James Tod and should not be used. This was one of my reasons for removing it from this article in this edit and this one. Note that I removed a long-standing statement attributed to Balfour as well as a statement that has been added several times over in the last few hours.

Regarding the long-standing statement, the "thief" definition is in any event covered by the much more reliable Nicholas Dirks, who was already cited as a source in the Etymology section. Dirks looks to be a great source generally for this subject and I will try to get hold of a copy (the GBooks version is a bit limited here).

The more recent Balfour-based statement had a problem aside from reliability. The claim that the Kallars still have a "petty prince" at Puducottah is plain wrong: there are no princes, petty or otherwise, in modern India. There are some vain people and feudal followers who hark back to the pre-independence era with titles that mean nothing now and often meant little then, but India is a republic and does not recognise them. In fact, there have been laws passed specifically to de-recognise them. - Sitush (talk) 19:28, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Let us talk.How can you refer the same book and use a partial information and say that Kallar means Thief? In Tamil the word means theif,agreed.It also includes periods of banditry,agreed,but in the same reference they have mentioned that they were given other occupations also and that is what i am referring to. How is it Vandalism if i have logged in and made the changes? If you want to argue let us do that.If you have point a prove it rather than trying to intimidate me.Tamiladiyan (talk) 19:30, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Nice..you made my job easier.If Nicholas Dirks is so reliable why does he use the term Royal Kallars then.It is in the same book that you referred. Please look at page 238 and see what they mean.In fact look at the heading which clearly states that Royal Kallars. Can i make an edit now based on the "reliable" information from Nicholas Dirks.Tamiladiyan (talk) 19:36, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I think our messages crossed, sorry. Please note that my edits to the article were not vandalism. Hopefully, you have now seen my explanation above regarding Balfour. I agree that it would appear likely that not all Kallars were thieves, but the article does not say that they were. I really do think that a full reading of Dirks, whose work appears to be a seminal one, will add much that can improve this article. I've just ordered a copy, taking my spending on books for Wikipedia this week up to a frightening £97 ! What will have to be borne in mind is that there is a common problem with Indian caste article contributors selectively citing from sources. Thus, although Dirks does mention some royal Kallars, it really is necessary to see what else he says and not take his thoughts out of context. For example, a couple of kings within a community of several thousand cannot be inflated. Since you have so far managed to take Balfour out of context, misunderstand the article and also a message from Qwyrxian on your talk page regarding this subject, I'm a bit concerned that you might unwittingly misunderstand whatever it is that Dirks might say. So, yes, you can use Dirks as a source for whatever it is that he says but please do ensure that he says it and that you are not incorporating, for example, original research or undue weight. - Sitush (talk) 19:43, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Peace Brother.My only concern was that,I am not able to elaborate on why the term Kallar was given to them. i don't have any reference from books in English,although i have reference from Tamil books.Since the reference from Tamil are authentic and are very old they carry credible information. The pre requisite for a war in olden Tamil nadu is that,the King's soldiers had to go and fetch the cow from the enemy territory.That is how a war was started. There are numerous references for this in Tamil literature(none in English). So to do this they select few people from the select clan called as Kallars(Known as Kalwars). That is why the name was given to them.But in the 1500 's they include periods of banditry,agreed.I really do not know how to post all these since there is not reference in English.Tamiladiyan (talk) 19:52, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Check this link. I dont know if i can use this as a source.But if you scroll down to the Prehistoric evidence in literatures section you can read what i am trying to convey.

(edit conflict)Sources do not have to be in English but you do need to bear in mind WP:NOTENG in such situations. To be honest, if they are "very old" then I would be inclined not to bother adding them to the article because they probably do not count as reliable sources even though you consider them to be. They are probably also written by members of the Kallar community, which is usually not a great sign in the context of how we do things here. I'm afraid that India suffers somewhat from Wikipedia's systemic bias.

We have an article for Kalwars, by the way. I presume this is not the same group that you mention. I've also slightly amended the link you have provided in the message that conflicted with this - I'll take a look at it. - Sitush (talk) 20:05, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry Nothing against you but the reference which i am making are probably the oldest literature's in Tamil.It was not written by a Kallar.It was written by a collection of people about the ways of lives.How bad?We are ready to believe somebody who has a Phd and knows nothing about the life and culture but are not ready to believe literature because "it is old".Tamiladiyan (talk) 20:10, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Oh dear, I hope that you are not referring to the Tamil Sangams or something like that. They are not considered to be remotely reliable here. The link that you provided above is also not reliable: the author seems to be a nobody and is self-publishing via a website that has no obvious editorial oversight and seems to allow any content that someone fancies writing. It also does not mention the Kallars in the section that you referred to me. - Sitush (talk) 20:16, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Once Sitush gets the Dirks book, then hopefully we can add more information. If, in fact, there is good evidence that some Kallars were royalty, then we should definitely include that information somewhere in the article (though, as I've said, not in the Etymology section). In the meantime, Tamiladiyan, you should read through WP:RS, which explains Wikipedia's policies on reliable sources. Ancient epic/mythic/religious texts are never reliable sources except when we write about them as myths. For example, we can use the Christian Bible as a reference, but only to copy exactly what it says and only in articles about the Bible itself. For a factual article about a group of people, we can't really use that type of text. However, if the text was absolutely unambiguous, and directly used the word "Kallar" (not a similar group, not a group that became Kallar", etc.), then we could probably create a section called "Mythology" which explains that info. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:37, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

I've got the book, all 450-odd pages of it and almost all directly related to the Kallars. I've read it once but took no notes. I now need to read it again and annotate. - Sitush (talk) 23:22, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Kallar as thief, traditional profession, etc.

The first few sentences should mention kallar as robber caste or thief caste. This is a important kallar information...

http://books.google.com/books?id=xTJpU6NQ5B4C&pg=PA23&dq=kallar+thief+caste&hl=en&sa=X&ei=n3RjUZWXBqH7igLYlYH4Dg&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAw#v=snippet&q=robber&f=false

publication by University of Zurich — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sharma007007 (talk • contribs) 02:27, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Sharma does, a bit indirectly, bring up the interesting point of "traditional profession" and the like that we're currently short on in the article. I think we get into this a little more in some of the other Mukkulathor confederation articles, but there is good data out in RSs that discusses the Kallar's role as village watchmen, and as "thieves" (with the attendant controversy as to who's a thief and who's a legit fighter demonized with an insulting label). I'm certainly open to seeing more discussion of the Kallar's historical image, provided we have good RSs, which seems to be easily done. MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:44, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes correct.

Kallan or Kallar has many meanings in Thamil language. After the Vijayanagara rulers established their administration in Tamil lands, they might have used different meaning for demeaning or degrading tamil communities. kindly listen Paarisaalan speech.

First of why the etymology section is required here. Please don't abuse any community's name. If they give thief meaning for Kallar, that is not good. If a person in community did assassination of some bad ruler, can the entire community be called as murderer? Some guys who wrote this page doing like this purposefully to demean. They show some references here and there and try to claim that entire community is like that. Their intention is not good.

I request Wikipedia to remove all unnecessary caste or community-based negative information. We have to look into present younger generation who do well in modern educations.

Etymology section is not required at all. If the readers want to know, they can go to good dictionary or grammar expert to get the correct meaning. I observed that some guys are keeping the meaning for Kallar as thief which is not at all appropriate.

Guys, please the below links.

please listen paarisaalan speech guys. Tamil876 (talk) 18:11, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Arbitrary heading

The link has been added to validate that the Piramalai kallars were the first settlers based on the DNA evidence. It is in Page 271 of the book referred.I really do not know how to direct to that particular page. Tamil (talk) 19:08, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi, unfortunately Tyagi's Martial Races book is one of the most notorious examples of plagiarism of Wikipedia published by Gyan Publishing. Furthermore, the source makes no mention of DNA evidence in the link that you did provide. For these reasons, and because genetics research is notoriously variable when it comes to Indian castes, I've had to remove your contribution, sorry. - Sitush (talk) 21:08, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Tamil (talk) 18:56, 12 April 2013 (UTC) Hi please find attached reference for the DNA marker found in the Piramalai Kallar,based on the genetic research done by National Geography..It is page 271,under the section Mukkulathors. I have got strong source and references from National Geography,Videos and interviews from the Authors.Please let me know if this can be added.

Hello Tamil, I now very clearly see where the disagreement is. As Sitush notes, Tyagi's book is well-known to be plagiarised and not reliable, and I believe was even found to be so in a Wiki investigation; Gyan Publishing has, unfortunately, published the works of some unethical and inaccurate "scholars". We are not necessarily questioning the work of National Geographic, but instead since we cannot trust Tyagi/Gyan, we are not yet sure that National Geographic did indeed say what Tyagi claims they say. If you can find the National Geographic study that Tyagi claims to cite, we can look at the published research paper itself to see what the scientists discovered. Does that help clear up what the concern is there? MatthewVanitas (talk) 19:09, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Tamil (talk) 19:31, 12 April 2013 (UTC) Ok. I understand. That is a good explanation. I can give you the videos where they interview the person who has M130 in his DNA and that be belongs to the Piramalai Kallar.I will first get you the references.. This is the article which clearly tells you the name of the person and the place. I have got video references from National Geography and the interview with him from the southern channel.Here are the references.You can watch the video from 07:00 mins where the professor who worked with National Geography takes the author to the Jothimanickam village,and at 08:07 says that the kallar people and is taken to Virumandi Andythevar. And you can also hear the professor talking about the gene.This is the video from National Geography and you can see Spencer wells meeting the same professor who takes him to the village and finding that gene M130.Please find this link which clearly states that he is from the Kallar Tribe.In that page search for Virumandi and you will find the details.

Tamil (talk) 17:52, 16 April 2013 (UTC) I have given enough references. Please let me know if there are any updates?

As you now know, Tyagi is not reliable. Your Madurai Messenger reference makes no mention of Kallar. Your Abroadintheyard source seems dubious but in any case seems to mention only one Kallor person (and that without any supporting info re: provenance). I can't follow the YouTube stuff but given your comments of 12 April I rather think that you are engaging in something that we call synthesis - you cannot do that, sorry. - Sitush (talk) 18:09, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Tamil (talk) 19:01, 16 April 2013 (UTC) Ok. What do you say about this. This is directly from the author himself(From National Geography).Page 115 and 116 contains references for the Tribe he belongs to.Thanks.

Tamil (talk) 19:08, 16 April 2013 (UTC) And some more evidence..All these references are based on the National Geographic study. The references may be different but the source is the same.

Tamil (talk) 19:10, 16 April 2013 (UTC) Some more reference for the same source.

I cannot see the first of your new batch - see User:Sitush/Common#GBooks for an explanation, I'm not sure what I am supposed to be looking at in the second or third. - Sitush (talk) 19:56, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Tamil (talk) 20:16, 16 April 2013 (UTC) Please search for the term Kallar in the references. As for the books can we request another moderator to search for the term Kallar in the Google book. Thanks.

Tamil (talk) 03:03, 23 April 2013 (UTC) Please let me know if there are any updates for the references?

I am not prepared to do your work for you but if you give me some page numbers then I'll take a look at it. - Sitush (talk) 16:52, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Tamil (talk) 18:52, 29 April 2013 (UTC) Please refer to page 5 in reference 8. Please let me know in case of any queries.

Thanks. That is, however, useless for what you want to say. As with almost all genetic studies, those who participated are quoted as using words such as "may" and "could". It does not say "are" or "were". Furthermore, I cannot spot who wrote the thing, although I note that there is an admission that such theories are contested. Basically, it confirms what I've been saying: these genetic studies are almost never worth recording on Wikipedia: when push comes to shove, we all come from the same base, wherever that may have been. - Sitush (talk) 20:22, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Tamil (talk) 20:26, 2 May 2013 (UTC) So basically in essence you are saying is that, all these references are invalid and what you are saying is correct.The author also clearly states that "These gene pools are unique and very accurately map the path a population has taken,leaving behind original communities to grow into independent groups but with a commonancestor," explains Pitchappan.Isn't that assertive enough? I am trying to educate myself here. If a scientific research based on DNA is not accepted,then what is the authentic piece of information that Wiki will accept?

Tamil (talk) 20:30, 2 May 2013 (UTC) I am adding the reference from google books,directly from the Genetic project. I am able to read the references correctly and if you have issue,reading the references, please let other moderators look at the reference. Thanks.

I am not a "moderator" - Wikipedia does not have such people and instead operates on the basis of consensus. Which you do not have here and thus I have reverted you. Your own evidence supplied on this talk page clearly demonstrates that you are mis-stating what sources say. This is, alas, quite common on India-related articles and is sometimes called "cherry-picking". I suggest that you try to gain experience in editing other articles and perhaps take note of the many and varied caste articles where genetic evidence has been discussed and rejected. It is a fast-moving, developing science but, like all science, is never more than a hypothesis. In this particular instance, your own sources suggest that the hypothesis has been challenged and, in any event, that it is couched in a very tentative form of words. - Sitush (talk) 20:52, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Tamil (talk) 21:29, 2 May 2013 (UTC) Please provide me some references where other caste articles refer to this particular project.I am not cherry picking. I am giving references from an article and the source is a reputed organization.

Tamil (talk) 13:41, 3 May 2013 (UTC) I am just referring to an article,and my edits are not based on good faith. If we need to dispute,then most theories can be disputed.Consensus is not related to any particular individual,and the consensus here seems that M130 is the ancient marker found in Indian Gene,out of Africa,which is found in Kallar people. It is a fact which cannot be disputed.

Tamil, please put your signature at the end of your posts, not the beginning. And Sitush is right--genetic studies are useless on caste articles. I've never seen one that said anything more than "Some people who are a part of a very small subset of a small caste happen to have a particular genetic marker more often than a very small subset of some other caste(s)." They're drawn from tiny samples, and usually non-random samples. The best ones are extremely hesitant and say nothing definitive (making them useless for our purpose) and the worst ones make claims that go far far beyond what the actual science says (also useless, though for a different reason). We're an encyclopedia, dealing in major, definitive, useful information. Saying that such and such a genetic marker may possibly be more common among some people says, well, nothing worth saying. At best, it's trivial. Qwyrxian (talk) 15:12, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 July 2016

Kallar is not theif. Please change this. Kallam is stole. But Kallar is slowly changed from kalavar to kallar. Kalavar means warriors. They are king families. please change this. Don't spread false info about people who are more a crore in population in the world.

Muralinpt (talk) 07:50, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Sam Sailor ^Talk! 09:49, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Genetics

Genetics in caste articles are very dodgy things and past discussions involving members of the India Project have tended to favour omitting them. Among the problems are that the science is relatively new, it is changing rapidly, it relies on self-declarations by the subject of study and it tends to be cherry-picked both by contributors related to specific castes and by journalists. That is why I have again removed the extraordinary claims about "oldest migrants from Africa" that have recently been added to this article. - Sitush (talk) 20:50, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

My revert

I've reverted here. Bunch of reasons. Firstly, I don't think Nittawinoda has read the Blackburn source. Secondly, there is a key word in the quote that doesn't align with what we say, ie: the quote says may, not did. Thirdly, throwing in stuff about the Criminal Tribes Act without first even mentioning that they were registered under it, and when, is just a bizarre way of doing things - it surprises the reader, who probably has to do a double-take and then scramble around trying to find out what the CTA was etc.

I'm not saying we can't use Blackburn, and Shulman is one of the five books I am currently reading about this issue, but going about things in a ham-fisted way is not helpful. We've already made allowances anyway, in the existing text, for multiple etymologies. Whether or not the Kallar were somehow castigated etc by the Brits into a position of being regulated under the CTA, it has nothing to do with the etymology of their name. And that is my fourth reason: the addition is misplaced in the article. - Sitush (talk) 19:35, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

In addition, I have just noticed that the quote from Shulman in that series of edits I just reverted is very conveniently cut off to lay blame on the Brits and ignore the very real reputation that the Kallar had, even if perhaps only a small number were actually guilty of it. The very next sentence in the book says "Blackburn emphasizes the settled role of the Kallar peasants, although he admits that in the medieval period some Kallar 'were undoubtedly involved in cattle raids and possibly formed a reservoir of warriors for local military chieftains'." And in the sentence preceding it he says the Kallar are "part peasant, part watchman, part bandit or cattle-thief". Talk about selective quoting! And, by the way, one of the reasons why this should come as no surprise is that you don't get to be what Dirks calls "little kings", like the Kallars and Maravars, by being nice to other people - the whole basis of power back then, was based on violence, pillage etc and marriage alliances, just as it was in much of the rest of the world. But, of course, in the Indian caste system, significant power-based marriage alliances are hard to come by due to endogamy. And like everywhere in the world, a small group of active people can cause a much larger group to be tainted by their actions.

One of the purposes of the CTA was to control the unruly types. If they're classified as criminal by fact of birth, as the CTA did, it enables suppression even before they rise up etc. - Sitush (talk) 20:08, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Vandalism by anonymous IDs

Admins please lock this page from further editing. This page has suffered relentless attempts of vandalism . — Preceding unsigned comment added by விக்னேஷ்வர் பா மாளுசுத்தியார் (talk • contribs) 09:08, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 January 2021

Please remove the caste pride content restored recently by blocked sockpuppet Thanjavr siva. Please restore revision by Callenecc. 2409:4072:6C8A:C8A5:7F09:EF7B:213A:F26 (talk) 06:36, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

 Already done. Callanecc FYI this is a thing. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 01:16, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Vandalism

Hello Sitush, SkyWarrior

User talk:Ihaveabandonedmychild is spreading wrong messages, which creates the violation to all the pages including Kallar (caste) page. And the given link also not correct and not valid. So please block him permanently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by விக்னேஷ்வர் பா மாளுசுத்தியார் (talk • contribs)

I have provided proper sources for my edits and did not violate any policy. Admins, please restore my edits. Ihaveabandonedmychild (talk) 12:53, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

I cannot access the source that Ihaveabandonedmychild provided with his edit here, so I cannot verify what they have said is actually true. Please provide a link to a source that actually works but do not restore the edit. See WP:BRD; since the content you added was contested, you should have a discussion on this talk page to gain a consensus on whether or not the content should be added to the article. (At this time, I have no opinion on the material myself).

விக்னேஷ்வர் பா மாளுசுத்தியார், neither me nor Sitush are administrators and do not have the ability to block people. And even if we did, we (or at least I) would not block Ihaveabandonedmychild for the edits made, as they appear to have been made in good faith. SkyWarrior 04:51, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 March 2022

Please add the below artical

1) Kallar served in the armies of the Chola and Pandya kings. They are predominantly found in Thanjavur, Madurai, Tiruchirappalli, Pudukkottai, Sivagangai and Theni Districts. The Thanjavur kallar today largely engage in agriculture and Kallar of Tirunelveli add deva (Thevar), " god," to their names as a caste title, as also did the Pandian kings.

2) Maikondan was a chief of the caste of kallans lived in 17 th-century. He was a brave warrior who ruled areas around Nandavanapatti in Thanjavur. In the year of 1662, Bijapur sultans invaded Thanjavur. During this invasion maikondan fought against sultans and saved all the inhabitants of Thanjavur.

3) The kallar domains in 1686, This was at Avur, where a line of Kallar chiefs known as the Kattalur and Perambur rajas gave their support to the missionaries' activities. Persecuted by the Thanjavur Marathas, the Christians surrendered to the kallar people in March 1745 in the Gunnampatti area of Thanjavur district.

4) Just 50 Kallan warriors defeated the Nawab's army of 10,000 in the battle of Chunampatti, Thanjavur per a British account of 1734. Praised as lightning quick & expert horsemen. விக்னேஷ்வர் பா மாளுசுத்தியார் (talk) 10:23, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

I dont agree. Dont add it in the article.The information is not fully in the books- most info are his own words not in the book. Some books are bad sources. His caste pride content is also removed before. No caste article has small events. 2409:4072:638F:3C7C:54FC:AD9:B2FB:1429 (talk) 12:40, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 April 2022

whatever written about Kallar caste on the intro are wrong N.P.Veeranan (talk) 03:08, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 03:27, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes correct.

Kallan or Kallar has many meanings in Thamil language. After the Vijayanagara rulers established their administration in Tamil lands, they might have used different meaning for demeaning or degrading tamil communities. kindly listen Paarisaalan speech.

All communities have thieves. showing one or two case study, references and portraying that entire community as thief not at all good, Man, promote correctness and neutral information.

please change etymology or remove it.

First of why the etymology section is required here. Please don't abuse any community's name. If they give thief meaning for Kallar, that is not good. If a person in community did assassination of some bad ruler, can the entire community be called as murderer? Some guys who wrote this page doing like this purposefully to demean. They show some references here and there and try to claim that entire community is like that. Their intention is not good.

I request Wikipedia to remove all unnecessary caste or community-based negative information. We have to look into present younger generation who do well in modern educations.

Etymology section is not required at all. If the readers want to know, they can go to good dictionary or grammar expert to get the correct meaning. I observed that some guys are keeping the meaning for Kallar as thief which is not at all appropriate.

Guys, please the below links. Tamil876 (talk) 18:18, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Kullers

I'm coming across historical references to Kullers as a caste in Tamil Nadu. Is Kullers another spelling for Kallars? If so, perhaps it should be included in the lead. Rupples (talk) 19:05, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Kallar Inscriptions

Thirubuvanam on the south base of the Rariganatha Perumal temple. A damaged record in the tenth year of the Pandya king Jatavarman Tribhuvana-chakravartin Parakrama Pandyan Devar. Registers a contract between the residents of “the city ” of Thirubuvanam and those of Kulamangala-nadu who owned the ur-kaval of that village. The ur-kaval men take an oath not to be unjust or injure the people in any way and they receive, in return for their duty, a selai (cloth) on each marriage among the Kallar-makkal They were to demand no selai on other marriages than the first.

This is related to the above inscription referring to the deed called kilipunaitiftu given by Manavala-muttaraiyan in kallar caste who had kani rights in Pudukkudi alias Rajndiracholamangalam , a hamlet of Tiruvellarai in Vadavali-nadu. He gave the deed asserting that he received in one kili (pouch) the entire sum of 4000 kasu, the price amount of the four shares, from the temple trustees and handed over the same to the sellers of the share.

References

Thirumangai Alvar

Thirumangai was born in the Kallar caste in Thirukuraiyalur, a small village in Tamil Nadu. Thirumangai's real name was Kaliyan or Kalikanti. Thirumangai's father was Nilam, a general under the Chola empire. He was skilled in archery and worked as a military commander himself for the Chola king.

References