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Talk:Jonas Vaidutis

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Did you know nomination

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  • Source: First source: "Nuo 1401 Krokuvos universiteto rektorius (antrasis)." (English: Since 1401 Kraków University's rector (second); link to the source), second source: "1401 antruoju Jogailos universiteto rektoriumi išrinktas Jonas Vaidutis." (English: In 1401, Jonas Vaidutis was elected as the second rector of the Jogaila's University; link to the source).
Created by Pofka (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 10 past nominations.

-- Pofka (talk) 21:54, 1 December 2024 (UTC).[reply]


Is Vaidutis a pre-Christian name?

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@Altenmann: Hello, I think we can keep the category "Pre-Christian Lithuanian names" in this article about name Vaidutis. Being a local Lithuanian myself I can guarantee you that I fully understand these archaic Lithuanian language words: vaidas (online dictionary) which means 'discord, scolding, quarrel' (it is a noun) and vaidytis (online dictionary) which means 'to argue' or 'to quarrel' (it is a verb). Of course it is difficult to confirm whenever Vaidutis was derived from a word vaidas or word vaidytis more than 650 years ago, however the root remains the same. Anyway, the name is clearly non-Christian as even its Slavicized version Wajduta has no Christian names equivalents, unlike Jan (Jonas / John). Moreover, from the provided sources it is clear that he was called Vaidutis before his baptism in Prague at 16+ years old and granting of a Christian name Jan / Jonas. -- Pofka (talk) 21:21, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, there is more to this; I tried to add something in Glossary_of_pre-Christian_Lithuanian_names. Unfortunately exactly Vaidutis is absent in Lietuvių pavardžių žodynas. --Altenmann >talk 23:02, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To put this issue to rest, I added a source that explicitly calls Vaidutis a "pagan name" (pogańskie imię Wajdut). However, I could not find any sources about the specific etymology of the name. I think we should only add an etymology if a decent source can be found. Perhaps Altenmann's findings about other names with the Vaid- prefix could be used, but it doesn't seem like the reference explicitly mentions Vaidutis. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 02:11, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Online sources with etymology do exist, but not reliable, unfortunately, so I didn't use them. --Altenmann >talk 03:15, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Altenmann: It is not possible to find any names in your provided source Lietuvių pavardžių žodynas because this is a database of Lithuanian surnames, not names. Nevertheless, I think IP user solved this question and provided sufficient sources that Vaidutis is a pre-Christian Lithuanian name. -- Pofka (talk) 17:28, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes it is for surnames, but nearly all Lithuanian pagan names are used as surnames. --Altenmann >talk 17:52, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Correct, 98.170.164.88 solved the issue of the category, but I still cannot find good source for etymology. --Altenmann >talk 17:54, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion Vaidutis is a diminutive of Vaidas with the help of suffix wikt:-utis, and all internets are peddling uneducated bullshit. --Altenmann >talk 01:36, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Altenmann: Yes, I can confirm that 'Vaidutis' sounds and looks as a diminutive of name Vaidas ('small Vaidas'). I already wrote above an example of online dictionary about a Lithuanian word vaidas, but I probably agree that it is not a WP:RS. -- Pofka (talk) 17:40, 7 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Studies in Prague, Paris, or both?

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Some sources on his education only mention studies in Prague. Some only mention his studies in Paris. I have not yet seen a source that mentions both. The timelines are even incompatible: some articles claim that Vaidutis studied in Prague from 1381 to 1387, and others that he studied in Paris until 1387.

NB. I haven't actually looked at any of the primary source documents concerning his life. I wonder whether the confusion between Prague and Paris could have arisen because these cities have vaguely similar names, but that's pure speculation. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 02:29, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt he studied in Paris; it was either Prague or Kraków, most likely the former. There is no information about Vaidutis's travels to France. Marcelus (talk) 09:11, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's what I think too. However, we do have a couple tertiary sources that support this claim. Is it okay to include it with a bit of a disclaimer like the article currently does, or should we just omit it because it's dubious? If there were a source that explicitly rejected the claim, that would be good to include, but I couldn't find any. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 11:39, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@98.170.164.88: Vaidutis undoubtedly studied in Prague (where his father Butautas was until his death) and this is supported by an article in the Universal Lithuanian Encyclopedia (see: HERE), which is obviously a WP:RS. Other reliable sources also mention that Jonas Vaidutis studied in Prague, so this is not a doubtful fact and I think it should not be further discussed. On the other hand, I was able to find only one source (link to the source) which support claims that Jonas Vaidutis also studied in Paris: "Prahos universiteto absolventas Jonas Vaidutis Butautaitis, mokslų ragavęs ir Paryžiuje, Sorbonoje." (English: Graduate of the University of Prague, Jonas Vaidutis Butautaitis, has also studied in Paris, Sorbonne) and in this article it is mentioned that its content is based on Rimvydas Valatka's book Jogailos akmuo Lenkija (Vilnius, 2015). It is noteworthy that King Jogaila has reformed the Jagiellonian University based on the model of the Sorbonne University: "1400 07 26 Jogaila reformavo akademiją pagal Sorbonos modelį" (English: On 26 July 1400, Jogaila reformed the academy based on the model of Sorbonne; link to the source), so the connection with Sorbonne is clearly repetitive and interesting. It would be an additional likely argument why Jonas Vaidutis was elected as the Rector of the Jagiellonian University. If anyone could provide additional reliable sources about Jonas Vaidutis studies in Paris, then this fact should definitely be added to the article as well. -- Pofka (talk) 18:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Pofka: I added to the article the claim that Jonas Vaidutis may have studied in Paris, and cited this to Encyclopedia Lituanica and the paper by Hoskovec.
There are also other sources that mention the Paris connection, e.g. this piece by Zenonas Ivinskis. (Ivinskis was a contributor to the Boston Lithuanian encyclopedias, so he may well have written the Encyclopedia Lituanica article.)
I am still not sure where the Paris thing originated in terms of primary source material. I know Wikipedia is supposed to mostly use secondary and tertiary sources, but it would be good to be able to track down the origin of this idea. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 22:37, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The worrying thing is that Encyclopedia Lituanica does not mention his study in Prague, meaning the two encyclopedias were picking bits and pieces from different incomplete sources. I remember one source calling Vaidutis an "enigmatic" person, probably because not much primary information was available for researchers. --Altenmann >talk 23:36, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Altenmann: The Encyclopedia Lituanica is an older source and it still mention that Vaidutis arrived in Prague. The Visuotinė lietuvių enciklopedija (Universal Lithuanian Encyclopedia) is a newer, more updated and overall a better source which mention (link to the VLE article by Rimvydas Petrauskas) not only that Vaidutis lived in Prague (Lithuanian: Vėliau apsigyveno Prahoje.) but that he also studied at the Prague University (Lithuanian: Studijavo Prahos universitete). So I think we should not question the Prague-part as the researchers seem to have valid arguments about Vaidutis' living and studies in Prague. -- Pofka (talk) 11:57, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
yes, It does say he arrived to Prague after his father died, but it does not say he studied there. I am not questioning he studied there, I merely saying the EL does not state this. --Altenmann >talk 06:40, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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