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Skating Technique

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If someone can tell me how to source comments on his skating technique, it would be appreciated. I don't know how to find the commentary again, so if there are articles out there, it would be great. Specifically I'd written this a while back "Jin is consistently praised for his technical prowess when it comes to his jumps, which are often described as "big" and "beautiful". Kurt Browning has commented that his quad Lutz is "truly a special jump". and recently there have been users who've come to the page and deleted many details without reason.

Figure skating articles in general seem to cite commentary or even what's happening in the program without citation like here "Another signature jump in her repertoire is a layback Ina Bauer or spread eagle that leads to either a double Axel, a double Axel–triple toe loop jump combination or a double Axel–double toe loop–double loop jump combination – a difficult transition given the required shift in weight and edges. Kim personally stated that her favorite jumps are the Lutz, flip, and Axel. Commentators and analysts consistently refer to her jumps as textbook standard. " in Kim Yuna's article, so I'm really not sure how to find it. If the recent editors can give an actual reason as to why this needed to be removed it would be much better. Editor120918756 (talk) 04:17, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That appears to be sourced to an article with talks about the commentary and the skating technique, you would need to find that same sort of independent third party reliable source to say that here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:46, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
OK, will do. Editor120918756 (talk) 17:54, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Details

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"His average program components score increased almost a whole point per component compared to the previous year" (2017 worlds), "and won his first senior international gold medal at an ISU Championship" (2018 Four Continents), and "His placement is the highest of any Chinese athlete competing in men's single skating in Olympic history so far. At the 2018 World Championships, he placed fourth in the short program but dropped to nineteenth overall after ranking twenty-third in the free skate" (2018 worlds and Olympics) are all factual and even written right in the page for comparison and verification. Not sure how else to source it. Should I report for Vandalism? An article that does confirm his placement being the highest of any Chinese athlete competing in men's single skating in Olympic history so far would very much be appreciated as a source though. I'll use this for now: http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-02/17/c_136981552.htm Editor120918756 (talk) 04:18, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You can't use Xinhua for BLP, you can only use top tier WP:RS unless we're talking ABOUTSELF. If you can't find a reliable source then it doesn't go in the article. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:45, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed Xinhua. Editor120918756 (talk) 17:40, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

2017-18 Season

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Can someone tell me how I am supposed to source the literal fact that the 2018 Four Continents Gold is indeed his first senior international gold at an ISU championship apart from the fact that it is displayed in his bio? Editor120918756 (talk) 04:18, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A "literal fact" about a living person still needs an inline citation which directly supports it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:47, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is in the paragraph right before, and I have placed another citation to satisfy you, for every comment you deleted as "unsourced". Editor120918756 (talk) 17:41, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That is how inline citations work... They need to follow every bit of info that is sourced to that source. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:43, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Will keep in mind, thanks. Editor120918756 (talk) 17:54, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

China Daily

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Since China Daily is supposedly not a reliable source for BLP, I will be searching for sources that are better. Specifically these comments: "1. After the 2022 Winter Olympics, Jin announced his intention to continue competing during the Milano Cortina 2026 cycle, with the goal of landing "more impressive quadruple jumps" and increasing the visibility of ice and snow sports." in the 2022-23 section and 2. "His placement is the highest of any Chinese athlete competing in men's single skating in Olympic history so far." in reference to the Pyeongchang finish. Editor120918756 (talk) 17:46, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is there coverage in specialist skating publications we could use instead? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:47, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is unlikely I can find the comment about his intentions with the upcoming cycle in regular skating publications, because the interview was for a Chinese news show. But the Pyeongchang finish, yes, I can likely fetch it. Editor120918756 (talk) 17:49, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well then its likely not due and shouldn't be in the article. We cover only what WP:RS do. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:59, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Found a skating news source for the placement, leaving it here till you get back to me about it. https://www.insideskating.net/2018/12/13/features/boyang-jin-i-aim-to-transform-myself-this-season "After 2018 Olympics in PyeongChang, where Jin finished 4th, the highest placement a Chinese male single skater has ever achieved" Editor120918756 (talk) 18:17, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also added this for the 2022-23 season claim that he was unable to go before. http://absoluteskating.com/index.php?cat=articles&id=2022brianorser These are the skating specialist sources I could find... Inside Skating interviewed the skater himself, absolute skating interviewed the coach. Editor120918756 (talk) 19:15, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also, is CGTN okay? Where is the article for acceptable sources in BLP? Editor120918756 (talk) 17:51, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
CGTN is full on WP:deprecated, it can't be used for anything except WP:ABOUTSELF. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:59, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That helps. Thanks, didn't know these. I have corrected the other things you've pointed out, if you want to read, and have removed some of the comments that lead to China Daily. Not sure how to source comments coming from Chinese athletes from elsewhere, I guess... Editor120918756 (talk) 18:04, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Request for Photograph

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Don't know how to add one, can someone add a picture to the Beijing Olympics section? It's become too monotonous. Editor120918756 (talk) 21:14, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox Picture Suggestion

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If anyone wants to replace the infobox picture, can they please move whatever is in it currently to another part of the article? Would be a pity to lose it. I dug up the Spiderman that was in it previously and put it in the 2016-17 section. Editor120918756 (talk) 22:08, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Removed Zhao Hongbo quote, need more reliable sources

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"Jin reportedly had injured his right ankle, as the head coach of the Chinese national team, Hongbo Zhao, said in an interview after the Cup of China that Jin competed with a foot injury." From 2017-18 for now. Source was [1]... Still two tweets remain as "sources". Need to find reliable sources for those. Also need real source for Beijing Olympic selection. Editor120918756 (talk) 21:33, 29 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment by Figureskatingfan

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I was asked to do an assessment for this bio and since I can't help myself, I'm also going to include some comments. This is by no means a commplete review, some things you can work on before submitting it for a more robust review.

Sources

  • Note: I'm not going to look at the non-England language sources, since I only know English and ASL. You might want to have someone who knows these languages look over those sources.
  • There are 10 refs errors messages (url-status= unfit) in the syntax of these sources, all from the ISU results pages. I'm not really sure why, since many of them seem fine, but you should investigate, even if it's to simply remove the error messages.
  • I also suggest that you make sure that all your refs are formatted the same. Many of them are missing information. Remember, it doesn't matter what citation format you use, as long as it's consistent (see WP:CITESTYLE). Are you doing your refs by hand? Perhaps that's why they're not consistent.
  • I think that you could better mine your sources, which would make some of the short sections longer (esp. the "Junior career" subsections). For example, you'll see that I added "He began to demonstrate his talents in skating during his second year of primary school" to the "Early years" section, which I got from ref 10. I also added some content from ref16 to the "2011-12 season" sub-section. I suspect that you could do the same throughout the article.
  • Was the Asian Open Trophy the only competition Jin competed in during the '11-'12 season? This could demonstrate another thing to work on: make sure that the article is comprehensive. If there's information missing and you can find it in a reliable source, I suggest that you add it.

Images

  • At first glance, you have too many images. They're sandwiching too much of your text; see MOS:SANDWICH. You either need to remove some of them, or you can put them in a gallery at the end of each section; see WP:GALLERY. A good but imperfect example of not sandwiching images and text is how it's done in Nathan Chen.
  • Perhaps you should think about how your images are placed. For example, it's standard that images of the winners' podium go into the "Competitive highlights" section of figure skating bios. You could also add images to the right side of the charts.

This is all I'll do for now, since I think it's more than enough for you to work on. I'm sure that more would be brought to light when you submit this for a more thorough review. For the above reasons, I agree with its current C-class assessment, although I think its importance should be at least med. I'll go and make those changes now. Let me know how I can further assist and best of luck. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 19:16, 9 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Figureskatingfan: Thanks for the feedback, and saying it should be of med importance (although I can't see the banner saying med currently? - the Evan Lysacek article says "mid" instead of "med" maybe that's why. Can I change it myself, or is it better that you do?). The rest, I'll work on.
I have some questions currently: "Are you doing your refs by hand? Perhaps that's why they're not consistent."
Yes, and I don't know how to do it in a different way. What do you use? Since I am editing another article to "GA" status currently, this would be very helpful.
How do I investigate and rectify url-status = unfit?
One more thing. Since you are a part of Project Reliability, I was wondering, is it okay if I use China Daily and CGTN for biographical details on him and other Chinese Skaters? I agree that those have a political bent, but for things like him withdrawing from a competition, or his plans for the season, I am not sure why they should be rejected. Unfortunately, the replacements I found were tweets. As you can see on this talk page, there's some discussion, and I even deleted a sina sports link, even though it was just an interview from a coach. I just want an opinion on this, though, so it's okay if you still reject it. Editor120918756 (talk) 11:42, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Med" was a silly typo; have fixed it now. It's okay for you to make those changes; all you have to do is to go into source editing on the talk page and change it in the banner(s).
You might want to think about using visual editor, which uses inline citations. That's my suggestion; it's so much easier than doing everyone via source editing and it's easier to keep things consistent across editors. I can help you with that if you like.
To be honest, I don't know much about the sources you mention. WIkiproject Figure Skating has come to a consensus that using non-traditional sources like Golden Skate, which isn't technically a reliable source, is okay because in the figure skating community, it's trusted. Editors that work on bios of Chinese skaters would have to make a similar decision and be able to justify it to those outside the project. Tweets are never going to be acceptable. It looks like there's some consensus above that we shouldn't use China Daily, so I think you should go with that. Jin is contemporary, still-active skater, so it seems to me that that finding better sources won't be too difficult. It's my personal opinion, however, that if you can't find a better, more reliable source that you use the lesser reliable ones and defend your choice. Yes, WP:RS is important, but so is comprehensiveness, especially for obscure topics like figure skating. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:12, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Figureskatingfan:Thanks for fixing.
I'll try to do the visual editor myself, but if you can demonstrate fixing a couple of references, that would be very much appreciated. If I need further help, I'll ask for it too.
I'm guessing Inside Skating, Skating China, and Absolute Skating are also considered reliable within Figure Skating?
I'll ping @Sharontse121: and @Horse Eye's Back: for the reliable sources discussion. If you want to participate, please do. I don't wish to use anything more than factual information (competition information, what a coach said, what he wants to do in a season). I agree that since he's a contemporary skater, it's not always difficult to find (especially now that he's in Canada, he'll probably have interviews in English), but as such, some interviews will only be available on Chinese news sources, and some Chinese skaters won't have that benefit at all. It might even apply to Chinese athletes as a whole. I won't push too hard for it though. It's a bit much for some wikipedia entries I'm only doing for fun.Editor120918756 (talk) 08:35, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Editor120918756, please don't feel compelled to change your citation technique; I'm only making suggestions, so please don't waste your time changing it if you decide it's not worth it. I'll change a few more refs to demonstrate, but don't hesitate to revert my changes back. You're so right about how editing is supposed to be for fun, so please don't sweat it.
Re: those other sources: I'd have to take a look at them more closely before I can make any judgments about them. WP recommends evaluating sources individually, on a case-by-case basis; see WP:NEWSORG. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:38, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Figureskatingfan: Thanks - I'll maybe ask in the wiki project Talk page for figure skating if things like Inside Skating are also considered reliable. Editor120918756 (talk) 18:53, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome. One question before I continue modeling ref changes: what is the dating convention you're using? mm/dd/yy? or dd/mm/yy? or mmddyy? or ddmmyy? It doesn't matter which one, as long as (again) it's consistent. We can also put in the MOSNUM dates.js template that forces said consistency. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 19:39, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't decide, I think we should use yyyymmdd if possible or ddmmyyyy if not. Yes, please put it into the template - I am unfamiliar with it, and it would be good to learn how to do it. Are there other templates? Editor120918756 (talk) 19:41, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Figureskatingfan: I did the MOSNUM dates myself, hope I ran the script correctly. Editor120918756 (talk) 09:47, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Figureskatingfan: Also, is citoid a good gadget? Seems like it'd be easy to use for me. Editor120918756 (talk) 19:43, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Ed, good job with the dates; they look very consistent. I'll go ahead and continue transferring the refs, probably tomorrow. Yah citoid works; it's what I use. Have fun learning how to use VE! ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 00:21, 14 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Figureskatingfan: I see skatingscores is also considered a reliable source, so I'd like to ask how I can source some of scores in the achievements? If you can show me how to do one, I'll do the rest (I've left three of them unsourced) Editor120918756 (talk) 09:44, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Editor120918756, I went ahead and changed the format of all the refs in the Records and achievements section so that you can go into VE and see what fields I kept and added. This explains how to use VE, including how to add and edit refs. Let me know how else I can assist. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:18, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Figureskatingfan: apparently someone else updated it to B-class, which I didn't expect. I do have a question. This is the only source on an injury: https://weibo.com/1779837945/Ljho8zeVP
It's on weibo, but it's the official account of a news channel. Can I use it?
I cleared some sources from here, if you want to read the interchange. I asked my latest doubt there as well, they seem fine with the weibo link. http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_China#Reliable_source_question_(for_athlete) Editor120918756 (talk) 16:02, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Classification up to GA and FA status is a matter of interpretation. I wouldn't sweat it if I were you, it just means that the editor who changed it has a higher view of this bio than we do. ;)
I had to look up Welbo and learned that it's a Chinese social media site. So no, you shouldn't use it. I suggest that you find the original interview on the news source (BRTV?) and use it instead. Mx. Granger's response over at the China WikiProject basically gave the same response, but I'd go further and locate the interview on BRTV, if you can. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:22, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Figureskatingfan: I couldn't find it on the BRTV site. The weibo is the official account of BRTV. I found some reuploads of the BRTV video elsewhere, is that fine? Editor120918756 (talk) 16:48, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yah I think that'd be okay, but who knows what other reviewers would think. You may have to defend your choice for including it, but you have a solid case. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:39, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well I don't think I'll be having most of my articles reviewed for GAN. I just want completion for this one because someone kept deleting a bulk of it and I decided to go and complete the rest of it after recovering what was deleted lol. @Figureskatingfan Editor120918756 (talk) 17:53, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Figureskatingfan: Could you see how to beef up the 2016-17 season? I don't think I can find a way to do the 2020-21 season, but 16-17 seems very sparse. I don't know where I can find news about Asian Winter Games that season, I just added a chinese news splurge.
Also, can we add pictures we see on goldenskate or ISU website without seeking permission from anyone? I'd like to add something to the Beijing Olympics section. Editor120918756 (talk) 16:19, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Editor120918756, my suggestion for beefing up any section of any article or bio is to find more sources. Content in any WP article/bio should always depend on what's out there, if you're able to find it, and if the sources are reliable. And no you can't just add images; all images on WP need to be free before you can upload them to WP and to Commons. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 19:14, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Figureskatingfan: ok, thanks. I saw some people put in photos from ISU and websites like those, so wondered. I don't know if I can beef the 2017 section up, I guess. Editor120918756 (talk) 19:31, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Figureskatingfan Could you reformat the Skating Technique section? It's looking odd to my eyes, after I added a sentence to it. Editor120918756 (talk) 10:33, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Editor120918756, done. You'll see that I moved some of the content you just added up to the previous discussion about how much Jin likes jumps and to make it different, I reworded it to follow the source more closely. Also, be careful of your use of contractions; remember that we use formal language here. Still watching this bio, so let me know how else I can assist. I can do an informal review to bring it up to A-status if you like, if you get two other editors to review it. Just let me know. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:03, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Figureskatingfan Thank you! I think I'll wait till I ask for a review. He's still skating, so there will be more news! Editor120918756 (talk) 18:44, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll probably ask at least one person who can read chinese to look through what I've written though, it's literally just been me sometimes asking some friends or sometimes posting on project:China for this article, haha. Editor120918756 (talk) 18:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Editor120918756, that is very cool, har-har. I may ask for a review, as I've threatened, in the next couple of weeks. Asking for assistance from other projects makes sense, especially when you're dealing with languages. I should ask for assistance at the Korean project before moving forward with Yuna Kim. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:53, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Figureskatingfan
Well for this article, I can do some chinese myself, but need help when I just plain don't understand something. Happened with some articles. So a review from another party in project:china would be good.
For Yuna, similarly, artemisia can do korean, and she's asked for help from project:korea whenever she needed help, IIRC. It's good to cross-check.
On that note, do @ me on Yuna. I have been busy, I only just came back to this article because 4CC happened recently. Editor120918756 (talk) 05:21, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Editor120918756, will follow your excellent advice. I still have stuff to watch from 4CC, although I did watch U.S. Nationals as much as I could. I'm going to Worlds! Only because it's in North America. I WILL fulfill my figure skating goal and see Ilia do his 4A in person! Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 06:36, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Figureskatingfan Woo! Enjoy! Editor120918756 (talk) 08:21, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Figureskatingfan I added a section and named it miscellaneous, not sure if that's appropriately named. Could you suggest a different name? Editor120918756 (talk) 12:32, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If I were you, I'd put the information in the "2023–2024 season" subsection because small, one-or-two sentence sections are frowned upon here. The info doesn't have anything to do with any of Jin's competitions, but it happened during the period in question, so it'd be okay to put it there. It may be an indication that Jin's moving towards teaching or coaching, so perhaps we can move the info into a longer section later on in his life and career. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:39, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To-do list

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  • Reliable source for accident in 2017
  • Reliable source for not having coach briefly during Beijing season
  • Reliable source for wanting to learn backflip and all quads apart from 4A
  • Reliable source for team selection over Yudong in 2022
  • Reliable source for Zhao Hongbo interview: https://www.sport.gov.cn/n20001280/n20745751/n20767274/c21958418/content.html yay!
  • Beijing sport university
  • The link for graduating from undergrad in 2017 seems to have died lol [2]
  • Learned 4S first?
  • Forgot triples, learnt them again quickly?

Apparently here http://2018.cctv.com/2018/02/07/VIDEUuA1PhJGljZODUm9wBFW180207.shtml translation available, also the mom one

  • Source for this claim: First skater to land four quadruple Lutz jumps at the Olympics
  • Highest scoring solo jump, under the +3 GOE system (4Lz, at 2018 Four Continents free skate; 16.31 total points).[3]

(Beijing 2022 Team and Individual Events combined).

  • The first skater to land a quad Lutz with a positive GOE in international competition.[4] possibly OR
  • His program components score for the free program increased by nearly ten points compared to the previous year.[5][6] possibly OR

Archiving articles

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  1. ^ "金博洋：我一定会拿冠军 赵宏博：我相信他有实力". Sina Corp. November 15, 2017.
  2. ^ "Winter Olympics Institute of figure skating teachers and students style". Hrbipe.edu.cn. Retrieved 31 December 2017.
  3. ^ "Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics". skatingscores.com. Retrieved 2023-03-16.
  4. ^ "Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics". skatingscores.com. Retrieved 2023-03-16.
  5. ^ "ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2016, Men – Free Skating, Result Details". International Skating Union. Archived from the original on 2 April 2016. Retrieved 31 October 2022.
  6. ^ "ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2017, Men – Free Skating, Result Details". International Skating Union. Archived from the original on 11 February 2019. Retrieved 31 October 2022.
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