Talk:Jesse Winters

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Jesse Winters/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Wizardman (talk • contribs • count) 16:12, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

I'll review this article shortly. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 16:12, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Here are the issues I found in the lead:

• I would move the last sentence in the lead to the end of the first paragraph, linking earned run average/writing it out and having the abbr. in parentheses.
• I would also move the second paragraph and make it the fourth, this way it goes through his career, then notes his personality. If you prefer it as is then that's alright too, either's fine.
• I'm fairly sure "top-10" has no hyphen in it.
• Add the birth/death date into the start of the lead.

Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 17:40, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

All corrections have been made thus far. Thanks! Alex (talk) 00:31, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Looks good. Here's the rest of my comments:

• I would work the second "paragraph" better into the early life section, as I don't like seeing one-sentence paragraphs. There's a few more one-sentence paragraph instances as well, so combine those with other ones.
• "Winters began his professional career in 1916 with the Denison team of the Western Association. He was preparing to enter medical school, however the Giants gave him a contract." A few things here. Link the Denison Railroaders in the first sentence, and if you can make the part about the Giants flow better. Did the Giants see him training with Denison? Did they work him out afterwards? If there's nothing out there, just move the medical stuff into the first sentence, then start the second with "After trying out for the Railroaders, the New York Giants offered..." Lastly, note the year the Giants offered it, can't tell if it's 1916 as well or if it happened alongside the following sentence.
• " [3] remove space
• "Nevertheless, Winters made his major league debut the following season." perhaps make it clearer here that he didn't miss any time since the war ended.
• Try to avoid using modifiers like "He struggled... was even worse..." Lay readers should ideally be able to figure this stuff out on their own.
• "Of course, there was the aforementioned incident" ugh, no, remove the of course.

I'm going to stop here and ask for you to go through and look for modifiers to clean up and the like using what I've noted so far. I'm leaning towards failing this, as I'm seeing a lot of small problems that are bringing down the article, but will keep it under review for now. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 03:31, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Read through the rest, here's some more issues:

• First para in 1920 needs a cite, especially since it's directly noting what a paper said, that or just combine the first two paras into one.
• "He also had seven at-bats that season. He went hitless." combine both sentences into one, add cite, merge with prev. para.
• The back to the minors section can realistically be 2 or three paragraph rather than the eight it currently is.
• Make sure all of these - in records (6-6) are ndashes per MOS.
• "He performed poorly defensively, with his four errors the fourth-most in the league." cite.
• "date[32])," ref should be outside parenthesis.
• 2nd para of later minor needs cite at end.
• "Winters pitched for the Portland Beavers in 1924 and for the Beavers and Wichita Falls Spudders in 1925." not really needed. Just link the teams in their respective paras and this can be taken out.
• I would work his temper into the 1920 section rather than it being separated, as it feels odd having it over there as is.
• My biggest problem with the article is the tone. It feels like it was written by a sportswriter rather than for an encyclopedia.

As a result of the last point in particular, I'm going to have to fail this article as a GA, unfortunately. Once all these are fixed, I would recommend a peer review, as someone without baseball knowledge may find further things I missed. After all that, it can be renominated. There are parts of the article I really like, mainly the detail and the earlier notes, but it's overshadowed by some serious issues. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 18:40, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

• Well shucks. Thanks anyway! Alex (talk) 23:03, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Jesse Winters/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Muboshgu (talk · contribs) 21:47, 2 December 2011 (UTC) This article looks good on the surface. I'll give it a closer look next week. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:47, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

My review is below. I'll put this on hold for a week so you can address my comments. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:17, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

IMAGE

• All articles should have an image, if possible. There is an image at his BR page, which is old enough to be public domain, but given its quality, I'm on the fence about including it.

INFOBOX

• There's no hard and fast rule about this, and I won't fail this article if you keep the infobox as is, but I think this is the only baseball page I've seen that lists ERA before W-L record.

LEAD

• Overall, the lead is too long. MOS:LEAD says that an article lead should not be longer than 4 paragraphs. Considering there are less than 30,000 characters, it should be 3 at most.
• I've never seen MiLB and MLB stats combined before. Usually we keep them separate. Is there any particular reason you combined them here?
• "Went a combined 49-60" - Win–loss record (pitching) should be linked here to explain what this means to people with no baseball knowledge
  • Also, that should be an –.
• Wikilinks needed for "at-bats", "doubles", and other baseball terms

PROSE

• Prose is awkward in a few places:
  • "Winters was born on December 22, 1893, in Stephenville, Texas, to John W. Winters and Fannie Winters, the oldest of three children"
  • "Prior to playing baseball professionally, he attended two Texas-based universities, playing football and baseball at John Tarleton Junior College, now known as Tarleton State University (into whose Hall of Fame he was elected in 1980)[8], and Hardin-Simmons University."
  • "While prior to his major league career, Winters was being compared to Christy Mathewson, by April 12, 1920, the Milwaukee Sentinel was comparing him to Ferdie Schupp."
• Found some baseball jargon.
  • "...under an optional agreement..." A wikilink to option (baseball) should be inserted here
  • "Phillies manager Art Fletcher requested waivers for Winters" - link to Major League Baseball transactions#Waivers
• Is there a source for his not being sent overseas? I find it odd that there's a source saying he would go overseas dated December 1918 considering the war ended a month prior.
• I see things like "on this date, it was announced that" in articles a lot more than I would like. It's too passive a statement. Please rewrite "On April 12, 1919, it was announced that Winters had made the Giants' roster for the upcoming season"
  • "There seems to be some uncertainty" is also too passive. Something more declarative, such as "Differing reports suggest..." or other wording of your choosing would sound better.
• Common baseball terms should be used
  • "Winters also started two matches" - matches --> games
  • It says "victories" in "Final season", that should be kept as "wins" for consistency
• "Fisticuffs" implies bare knuckle boxing. If it was just a fight, say it was a fight.
• The source for the fight with Benny Kauff should appear after the comma. I don't see a source backing up the fight with Ross Youngs.
• "Coincidentally, both Wiltse and Wisner pitched for the Giants when they set their respective marks." Coincidences aren't notable, and that sentence gives it undue weight. You can say "reached by Hooks Wiltse of the Giants in 1913. The record was broken five years later by Jack Wisner, also with the Giants, who made 25 appearances without a win or loss" if you wish.
• Comma usage
  • "though by early February Winters' release was recalled..." comma needed
  • "He began 1924 with the Phillies in spring training, however he was sold to the Portland Beavers before the season began" - here, "however" begins a new sentence, so a semi-colon should be used.
• "He retired due to a bad pitching arm" - what does that mean? The cited source says his pitching arm "gave out", which is also not descriptive enough. Did he get injured? Did he simply lose his velocity, or control?
• Is there any information on his life between the years of 1959 and 1986? That's a pretty huge gap.
• Some of these short paragraphs can be merged, such as the first two paragraphs in "Major league debut", as the second paragraph is talking about the debut game mentioned in the first paragraph.

CITATIONS

• Reorder refs. The numbers for multiple refs should go up, there are some that don't, i.e. "[13][2]"

REFERENCES

• Most are solid, but the two from familysearch.org produce an internal server error

This is too bad. It's been a week with no response. I left a note on the nominator's talk page, which was subsequently blanked. I brought this nomination to the appropriate WikiProject, and there are no takers. So with nobody working on this, after ten days, and being on hold for a week, I have to fail this GAN. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:10, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

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