Talk:James Leathart

Rescuing Sqdn Ldr White

The story given in this Leathart article differs in several respects to the story written in the Wikipedia articles concerning Alan Deere and John Allen, even though all three articles appear to rely in part on the same sources. I also have my own source, lying in front of me; Norman Franks excellent work on the Air Battle For Dunkirk.

• 'The next day...22 May'; is wrong, it was on May 23rd.
• 'Leathart observed' - this is news to me.
• 'With the consent of his senior officer, Leathart decided...' - more news to me, because every report I have ever read merely states 'it was decided', without attributing the decision to a specific person.
• Version A; Leathart landed, couldn't find Sqdn Ldr White, took off without him, saw 109s, landed again, and ran for a ditch where fortunately he found White.
• Version B; Leathart landed, picked up White, taxied for take off, then abandoned the take off with both occupants of the Miles Master diving hurriedly for cover.

Can anybody shed further light as to which of these stories is closer to the truth? Logically, any version written by Leathart himself should contain more detail regarding the movements of the Miles Master, and less detail regarding the Spitfires swooping in and out of the clouds. But is that the case; is it that the original sources disagree on detail, or is it just down to a different Wikipedia editor making a couple of small errors? WendlingCrusader (talk) 01:26, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

The date was wrong, which is my mea culpa as the author of the Leathart article and I have fixed this (I also created the Allen article and worked the Deere article up to A-Class). Caffrey says "Leathart saw a Spitfire shot down at Calais Marck, and on landing back at Hornchurch was told White was missing." She goes on to say that the station commander (Bishop identifies him as Bouchier) gave permission in response to Leathart's request to go collect White. Bishop isn't explicit that Leathart made a request, just that Bouchier asked him to collect White. Smith, which is the main source I used to expand the Deere article refers to a 1993 interview with Leathart in which he says he waited for White for 10 minutes before taking off because the engine of the Master was overheating only to quickly land again because of the Bf 109s. He jumped into a ditch where he found White. Caffrey's version of events align with A as does Smith's, which is obviously based on the Leathart interview. Bishop's version also aligns somewhat with A, but is silent on Leathart taking off and landing again. None of the sources I have match version B. What does Franks say? Zawed (talk) 08:01, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Franks aligns with version B, which I believe is also Deere's version, but I can see both sides of the argument. Both Deere and Allen were pre-occupied with the 109s, and they would only have seen the Master briefly. Was it taxiing, was it taking off, or was it landing for a second time? A brief glance would only leave Deere noticing that it was moving across the ground, and hence vulnerable. Only Leathart would know the full story.

Franks clearly quoted from Deere's Nine Lives for the majority of his story regarding the rescue, but, and it is a big but, he must also have read whatever Leathart had to say because the circumstances that caused Leathart to force-land were written up in detail too, and that did not involve Deere or Allen, so that detail came directly from Leathart himself.

The only remaining query is the timeline.

• 74 sqdn mounted a dawn patrol at 6am; I do not have an exact time for Sqdn Ldr White's forced landing, but it may have been around 6:30am. Much later and his Spit would have been running on fumes and heading for home anyway.
• If Leathart genuinely saw a Spitfire 'shot down'[sic] at Calais-Marck (per Caffrey), then either he had access to a very powerful telescope, or 54 sqdn were also in the air for that dawn patrol. But nobody mentions that.
• It was at 10:30 that the Miles Master and two Spitfires set off (from RAF Hornchurch?) for Calais. Was this therefore Leathart's second flight on this date, or were 54 on a rest-day/standby? My money is on the latter.
• If you are going to send someone across to Calais, would you choose somebody who has only just returned from a dawn patrol, and directly involved with White i.e. pilots from his own squadron. Or, was it a deliberate choice to send two pilots from 54 who were rested and fresh? Or did Leathart pull rank regardless?

This is why I doubt that Leathart 'saw' a Spitfire shot down - a slightly dramatic term for what I believe was a perfectly controlled force-landing caused by a bullet through White's radiator and an overheating engine. I believe this photo is one the Germans took, and that Spitfire looks ok, unless the engine had seized by then. But the photos provenance is not 100% clear. Have you read about the two fitters who were sent over in a Bristol Blenheim, in order to repair the Spitfire radiator to enable White to fly home by himself? They were captured and became POWs. I know of a number of squadrons who were active on that date, and 54 isn't one of them. Their operations log (ORB AIR 27/511/19) might give us the definitive answer as to whether their pilots were airborne at the same time as 74 sqdn. I do not have it to hand at this time.

I am reminded that Wikipedia is not always about the truth. If Caffrey says these were the facts, then that is what we are supposed to write up.

So, if you are comfortable that Leathart's version is correctly written up following the change of date, then I have no solid grounds to object to his version of events. But that doesn't mean I believe every word of it.

WendlingCrusader (talk) 19:04, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I wonder if by "shot down", Caffrey meant that Leathart saw a shot down Spitfire on the airfield, rather than actually literally seeing it being shot down. Regardless, I am comfortable with the account as written since it reflects what the cited sources state. It would need to be revisited if 54's operations for that morning could be clarified. Zawed (talk) 08:41, 19 November 2024 (UTC)