Talk:Jai Shri Ram

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Q1: Why does this article describe Jai Shri Ram negatively?

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Q3: This article says that Jai Shri Ram is used negatively, but I don't believe that it is used in such a way! Who is right?

A3: Please remember that just because you have never seen Jai Shri Ram being used negatively doesn't mean that it is never used negatively. For example, you may have only seen cases where Jai Shri Ram was used positively, but at the same time, other people use the same subject negatively. The article does not say that Jai Shri Ram is always used negatively. On the contrary, it says that Jai Shri Ram has been used negatively in certain situations.

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Sravasti Dasgupta (2 August 2020). "'Biased, anti-Hindu' — campaign begins against Wikipedia after it urges Indians to donate". ThePrint. Retrieved 3 August 2020. A social media campaign, spearheaded by prominent right-wing personalities accusing Wikipedia of being 'anti-Hindu', began trending Saturday, three days after the open-source information website asked Indian users to donate to 'defend Wikipedia's independence'.
Omer Benjakob (5 November 2020). "A vicious culture war is tearing through Wikipedia". Wired (magazine). Retrieved 6 November 2020. The edit was the first in a struggle that raged for more than a year, with one side claiming it constituted a form of "Hinduphobia" and the other side saying it was an accurate portrayal of the religious term, which had been embraced by India's ruling party BJP and, according to some in the media, had become a "dog whistle" for nationalists.

Removed references

This section is pinned and will not be automatically archived.

^[1]^[2]^[3]^[4]^[5]^[6]^[7]^[8]^[9]^[10]^[11]^[12]^[13]^[14]^[15]^[16]^[17]^[18]^[19]^[20]^[21]^[a]

I removed this massive collection of redundant references. Feel free to reincorporate them into the article. ―Susmuffin ^Talk 18:44, 10 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have gone through the below sources:

(1), (2), (3) have passing mentions of how the slogan was linked to violent incidents.

Same for (7), (8), which additionally provide information on the rise of the BJP and Hindutva.

(9), (15), (21) I have added in the article. SerChevalerie (talk) 13:03, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Adding this video here.^[22] SerChevalerie (talk) 18:28, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Restored to article, bundled with the {{refn}} template to prevent citation overkill. — Newslinger talk 05:20, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References and notes

^ Compare with the usage of Allāhu akbar in Islamic radicalism, over here.

^ Suresh, Mayur (2019-02-01). "The social life of technicalities: 'Terrorist' lives in Delhi's courts" (PDF). Contributions to Indian Sociology. 53 (1): 72–96. doi:10.1177/0069966718812523. ISSN 0069-9667.
^ Menon, Nivedita (2002). "Surviving Gujarat 2002". Economic and Political Weekly. 37 (27): 2676–2678. ISSN 0012-9976. JSTOR 4412315.
^ Engineer, Asghar Ali (1992). "Sitamarhi on Fire". Economic and Political Weekly. 27 (46): 2462–2464. ISSN 0012-9976. JSTOR 4399118.
^ Nussbaum, Martha C. (2008-11-01). "The Clash Within: Democracy and the Hindu Right". Journal of Human Development. 9 (3): 357–375. doi:10.1080/14649880802236565. ISSN 1464-9888.
^ Staples, James (2019-11-02). "Blurring Bovine Boundaries: Cow Politics and the Everyday in South India". South Asia: Journal of South Asian Studies. 42 (6): 1125–1140. doi:10.1080/00856401.2019.1669951. ISSN 0085-6401.
^ Gupta, Charu; Sharma, Mukul (1996). "Communal constructions: media reality vs real reality". Race & Class. 38 (1): 1–20. doi:10.1177/030639689603800101. ISSN 0306-3968.
^ Austin, Dennis; Lyon, Peter (1993). "The Bharatiya Janata Party of India". Government and Opposition. 28 (1): 36–50. doi:10.1111/j.1477-7053.1993.tb01304.x. ISSN 0017-257X. JSTOR 44484547.
^ Ramaseshan, Radhika (1990). "The Press on Ayodhya". Economic and Political Weekly. 25 (50): 2701–2704. ISSN 0012-9976. JSTOR 4397088.
^ Sarkar, Sumit (1999). "Conversions and Politics of Hindu Right". Economic and Political Weekly. 34 (26): 1691–1700. ISSN 0012-9976. JSTOR 4408131.
^ Sarkar, Sumit (1993). "The Fascism of the Sangh Parivar". Economic and Political Weekly. 28 (5): 163–167. ISSN 0012-9976. JSTOR 4399339.
^ Ludden, David; Ludden, Professor of History David (April 1996). Contesting the Nation: Religion, Community, and the Politics of Democracy in India. University of Pennsylvania Press. ISBN 978-0-8122-1585-4.
^ Rambachan, Anantanand (2017-04-20). "The Coexistence of Violence and Nonviolence in Hinduism". Journal of Ecumenical Studies. 52 (1): 96–104. doi:10.1353/ecu.2017.0001. ISSN 2162-3937.
^ Gudipaty, Nagamallika (2017), "Television, Political Imagery, and Elections in India", in Ngwainmbi, Emmanuel K. (ed.), Citizenship, Democracies, and Media Engagement among Emerging Economies and Marginalized Communities, Springer International Publishing, pp. 117–145, doi:10.1007/978-3-319-56215-5_6, ISBN 978-3-319-56215-5
^ Mazumdar, Sucheta (1995). "Women on the March: Right-Wing Mobilization in Contemporary India". Feminist Review (49): 1–28. doi:10.2307/1395323. ISSN 0141-7789. JSTOR 1395323.
^ Schultz, Kai; Raj, Suhasini (5 January 2020). "Masked Men Attack Students in Rampage at University in New Delhi". The New York Times. Retrieved 6 January 2020.
^ Brosius, Christiane (2005). "Hindutva's Media Phantasmagorias". Empowering visions : the politics of representation in Hindu nationalism. Anthem Press. p. 95. ISBN 1-84331-134-8. OCLC 52566622.
^ Brosius, Christiane (2007). "The Unwanted Offering. Ubiquity And Success Of Failure In A Ritual Of The Hindu Right". In Hüsken, Ute (ed.). When rituals go wrong mistakes, failure and the dynamics of ritual. Numen. Vol. 115. Brill. ISBN 978-90-474-1988-4. OCLC 928981707.
^ Ghassem-Fachandi, Parvis (2009-08-01). "Bandh in Ahmedabad". Violence: Ethnographic Encounters. Berg. ISBN 978-1-84788-418-3.
^ Salam, Ziya Us. ""Jai Shri Ram": The new battle cry". Frontline. Retrieved 2020-01-10.
^ Daniyal, Shoaib. "'Jai Shri Ram' might be a new slogan – but the use of Ram as a political symbol is 800 years old". Scroll.in. Retrieved 2020-01-10.
^ DelhiJuly 13, Prabhash K. Dutta New; July 13, 2019UPDATED; Ist, 2019 12:28. "Jai Shri Ram: A slogan that changed political contours of India". India Today. Retrieved 2020-01-10. {{cite web}}: |first3= has numeric name (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)
^ "On board The Ramayan Express, there are bhajans, chants of Jai Shri Ram and more - YouTube". www.youtube.com. Retrieved 2020-08-01. {{cite web}}: More than one of |work= and |website= specified (help)

Inaccurate generalization in intro

The intro says people of all other religions are targeted with the chant in general, but in the given citations, I don't see people other than muslims and Christians mentioned as being targeted.

Before editing/reverting my edit, please add/point out to the sources that mention incidents of people of any faith in general being targeted. Santosh L (talk) 07:11, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It said "other faiths", not "all other faiths". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:19, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång Other faiths implies all other faiths. Buddhists were not targeted, Jews were not targeted, zoroastrians were not targeted.

Only muslims and christians.

"muslims and sometimes Christians" is more accurate and "other faiths" is less accurate. It implies any faith could have been the target when it is only 2 particular faiths.

So why not change to more accurate wording? Santosh L (talk) 07:24, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, it doesn't. It's like saying "Other countries, particularly China..." It doesn't indicate all other countries, and the "other faiths" doesn't indicate "there has been related violence against Asatru and Wiccan people."

Also, the WP:LEAD is meant to be a summary of the rest of the article. Where does the current article speak of violence against Christians? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:30, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång Yes the article doesn't mention christians whereas the sources do mention incidents against christians.

But if only incidents against Muslims are mentioned, then "against Muslims" is more accurate than people of other faiths. When all evidence in the article suggests it is only against one particular faith that should be made clear in the intro.

Generalization is not only less accurate but incorrect here.

"Other countries, particularly China..." -> This statement refers to multiple countries but predominantly China. It implies other countries in a smaller quantity, but greater than 0.

"India has good relations with other countries particularly China".

"India has good relations with China".

In the first statement good relations with some more(not all) neighbours is assumed. In the second statement good relations with any other neighbour is not assumed. Hence the implied meaning is different.

Similarly, when only Muslims are the targets, and there are no mentionsof incidents against any other religion in the rest of article, stating "other faiths" in the intro is inaccurate to wrong.

Editing to "only muslims" is anyway more accurate given only they are mentioned in the article. So shall I edit to "only muslims"?

Let me know if any other faith was mentioned or referred to in the article. Santosh L (talk) 07:52, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One of the lead-refs, the current [21], states "this time Muslim, Dalit and even Christian men have been assaulted and forced to chant "Jai Shri Ram"." That covers "other faiths" (and I'm told Dalits are mostly Hindu), but afaict, it has no presence in the article-body. So if you want to make the change "against ~~people of other faiths, especially~~ Muslims", it would seem WP:LEAD supports that (so I won't stop you), as the article is currently written (unless I missed some detail somewhere). There is no support in the article for "only". If something WP:PROPORTIONal on "other faiths" is added to the article body, we'll see what happens.

That's my reading, perhaps other editors have other opinions. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:16, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång Then I will carry on with the new edit.

Even if Christian incidents are taken into account, "other faiths" would still be less accurate considering that it is only 2 particular faiths that have been the target.

But let's go to that once the new citations/references are added. Santosh L (talk) 08:49, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[22] Compare with the usage of Allāhu akbar in Islamic radicalism, over here.

[1] Suresh, Mayur (2019-02-01). "The social life of technicalities: 'Terrorist' lives in Delhi's courts" (PDF). Contributions to Indian Sociology. 53 (1): 72–96. doi:10.1177/0069966718812523. ISSN 0069-9667.

[2] Menon, Nivedita (2002). "Surviving Gujarat 2002". Economic and Political Weekly. 37 (27): 2676–2678. ISSN 0012-9976. JSTOR 4412315.

[3] Engineer, Asghar Ali (1992). "Sitamarhi on Fire". Economic and Political Weekly. 27 (46): 2462–2464. ISSN 0012-9976. JSTOR 4399118.

[4] Nussbaum, Martha C. (2008-11-01). "The Clash Within: Democracy and the Hindu Right". Journal of Human Development. 9 (3): 357–375. doi:10.1080/14649880802236565. ISSN 1464-9888.

[5] Staples, James (2019-11-02). "Blurring Bovine Boundaries: Cow Politics and the Everyday in South India". South Asia: Journal of South Asian Studies. 42 (6): 1125–1140. doi:10.1080/00856401.2019.1669951. ISSN 0085-6401.

[6] Gupta, Charu; Sharma, Mukul (1996). "Communal constructions: media reality vs real reality". Race & Class. 38 (1): 1–20. doi:10.1177/030639689603800101. ISSN 0306-3968.

[7] Austin, Dennis; Lyon, Peter (1993). "The Bharatiya Janata Party of India". Government and Opposition. 28 (1): 36–50. doi:10.1111/j.1477-7053.1993.tb01304.x. ISSN 0017-257X. JSTOR 44484547.

[8] Ramaseshan, Radhika (1990). "The Press on Ayodhya". Economic and Political Weekly. 25 (50): 2701–2704. ISSN 0012-9976. JSTOR 4397088.

[9] Sarkar, Sumit (1999). "Conversions and Politics of Hindu Right". Economic and Political Weekly. 34 (26): 1691–1700. ISSN 0012-9976. JSTOR 4408131.

[10] Sarkar, Sumit (1993). "The Fascism of the Sangh Parivar". Economic and Political Weekly. 28 (5): 163–167. ISSN 0012-9976. JSTOR 4399339.

[11] Ludden, David; Ludden, Professor of History David (April 1996). Contesting the Nation: Religion, Community, and the Politics of Democracy in India. University of Pennsylvania Press. ISBN 978-0-8122-1585-4.

[12] Rambachan, Anantanand (2017-04-20). "The Coexistence of Violence and Nonviolence in Hinduism". Journal of Ecumenical Studies. 52 (1): 96–104. doi:10.1353/ecu.2017.0001. ISSN 2162-3937.

[13] Gudipaty, Nagamallika (2017), "Television, Political Imagery, and Elections in India", in Ngwainmbi, Emmanuel K. (ed.), Citizenship, Democracies, and Media Engagement among Emerging Economies and Marginalized Communities, Springer International Publishing, pp. 117–145, doi:10.1007/978-3-319-56215-5_6, ISBN 978-3-319-56215-5

[14] Mazumdar, Sucheta (1995). "Women on the March: Right-Wing Mobilization in Contemporary India". Feminist Review (49): 1–28. doi:10.2307/1395323. ISSN 0141-7789. JSTOR 1395323.

[NYT_JNU_6_Jan-15] Schultz, Kai; Raj, Suhasini (5 January 2020). "Masked Men Attack Students in Rampage at University in New Delhi". The New York Times. Retrieved 6 January 2020.

[16] Brosius, Christiane (2005). "Hindutva's Media Phantasmagorias". Empowering visions : the politics of representation in Hindu nationalism. Anthem Press. p. 95. ISBN 1-84331-134-8. OCLC 52566622.

[17] Brosius, Christiane (2007). "The Unwanted Offering. Ubiquity And Success Of Failure In A Ritual Of The Hindu Right". In Hüsken, Ute (ed.). When rituals go wrong mistakes, failure and the dynamics of ritual. Numen. Vol. 115. Brill. ISBN 978-90-474-1988-4. OCLC 928981707.

[18] Ghassem-Fachandi, Parvis (2009-08-01). "Bandh in Ahmedabad". Violence: Ethnographic Encounters. Berg. ISBN 978-1-84788-418-3.

[19] Salam, Ziya Us. ""Jai Shri Ram": The new battle cry". Frontline. Retrieved 2020-01-10.

[20] Daniyal, Shoaib. "'Jai Shri Ram' might be a new slogan – but the use of Ram as a political symbol is 800 years old". Scroll.in. Retrieved 2020-01-10.

[21] DelhiJuly 13, Prabhash K. Dutta New; July 13, 2019UPDATED; Ist, 2019 12:28. "Jai Shri Ram: A slogan that changed political contours of India". India Today. Retrieved 2020-01-10. {{cite web}}: |first3= has numeric name (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)

[23] "On board The Ramayan Express, there are bhajans, chants of Jai Shri Ram and more - YouTube". www.youtube.com. Retrieved 2020-08-01. {{cite web}}: More than one of |work= and |website= specified (help)

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