Talk:Józef Abelewicz

Abelewicz or Abelevičius?

This article was stable describing him as Polish under a Polish name for many ears. Recent expantion is welcome, but name/nationality changes are controversial and should be discussed first. For now, the move should be reverted per WP:RMUM and I've edited the article to be more neutral (restore previous name, use both Polish and Lithuanian categories and adjectives, ex. "associated with Lithuania and Poland"). Note that Polish Biographical Dictionary calls him by his Polish name (the entry I think is reproduced here and does not make any claims about him being Polish or Lithuanian). Not that it is surprising, I expect most Polish soruces do so, and most Lithuanian sources use his Lithuanian one. I'll note that I tried a BEFORE and I failed to find any sources about him outside what we have, although Lithuanian sources Lietuvos TSR bibliografija and Literatūra ir kalba might be of use if anyone can access them. He does not seem to be discussed in any English works I can see. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:34, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

The initial stub article was very poorly sourced and I do not consider the contents of a stub article that only mentioned a dictionary without the page, author, etc., in any way binding. Even if the article remained in such a bad state for as many as 14 years.

In fact, there is not a single RS that calls the person a "Polish Catholic priest" - only the Polish Wikipedia (which does not provide a source for calling him Polish) and low-quality rip-offs from Wikipedia, e.g. this coffee website, DBpedia, wiki.edu.vn, etc, call this person a Pole.

I adjusted some things in this article based on any sources available, including the Polish one that you gave. Judging from his biography, the person might have never even set foot in Poland, but was entirely restricted to the former Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Saint Petersburg.

It is also unfortunate as you have noted that no English-language sources even mention him. Cukrakalnis (talk) 12:14, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

@Note that I am not endorsing calling him a "Polish Catholic priest". I preesume you can quote one or more reliable Lithuanian sources which call him Lithuanian? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:43, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Abelẽvičius Jonas Juozapas *1821 03 17 Anykščiai †1882 07 15 Vilnius, Lietuvos katalikų kunigas, teologas. - Lithuanian Catholic priest, theologian. Universal Lithuanian Encyclopedia - https://www.vle.lt/straipsnis/jonas-juozapas-abelevicius/. Cukrakalnis (talk) 13:19, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

PS. Is this a RS? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:46, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

The website is administrated by this person [1] - Tautvydas Kontrimavičius, who is notable enough to have a lt.wiki page about him. According to LRT, he's the curator of the Vienuolis-Žukauskas Memorial Museum [2] (as of 2020). I would say that he is sufficiently reliable, especially considering how niche and little information we have for this topic. Kontrimavičius is active in looking at local history and has written for the Vilnius University [3], so I'd say that he's ok to use as a source. Cukrakalnis (talk) 13:34, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. I wonder what sources Polish Wikipedia IP author used when writing their entry which stresses Polishness of the subject. Sadly, they did not say... _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:45, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

@Cukrakalnis I see you removed from the lead that he was "associted with Lithuania and Poland", changing it to just "Lithuanian". Since we have a source for Lithuanian, I am not questioning that wording but I think restoring "associated with Poland" is supported by the very fact his biography is included in the Polish Biographical Dictionary. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:06, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

The source quoted didn't say that he was connected to Poland, but now that you say that his mere inclusion in that source means he is connected to Poland, it makes more sense why you wrote that. Instead of re-adding that, I have added something more specific, which is the following: He was praised by the Polish priest Czesław Falkowski [pl] for his exemplary knowledge of the Polish language and for his stance against Russification. in this edit [4]. Cukrakalnis (talk) 10:04, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, I missed that detail (about his exemplary Polish...). Interesting phrase which actually might suggest that Polish was not his native language, if we read between the lines? But that's speculation... _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:55, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 3 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. I have found no consensus to move this page. Best, (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans (talk) 18:12, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

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Józef Abelewicz → Jonas Juozapas Abelevičius – The person was a Lithuanian, born in Lithuania, who clearly had a good knowledge of the Lithuanian language because he was a proofreader for Lithuanian-language publications. There is not a single reliable source calling the person Polish (although pl.wiki calls him a Polish priest, it provides no source for it). In contrast, the reliable Universal Lithuanian Encyclopedia calls the priest Lithuanian [5]. Ergo, the priest should be called by his Lithuanian name instead of the Polish one. Cukrakalnis (talk) 12:26, 3 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 17:04, 10 October 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 15:53, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

FYI: Obituary of Józef Abelewicz, "Słowo" 8 July 1882 (no. 150). Marcelus (talk) 21:34, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Good to add to EL I guess - thank you. It says "Father Józef Abelewicz, canon of the Vilnius cathedral and rector of the dietary seminary, died in Vilnius. He lived for 61 years and was a priest for 36 years." (original in Polish: "Ksiądz Józef Abelewicz, kanonikm katedy wileńskiej i rektor seminarium dieciezialnego, zmarł w Wilnie. Żył lat 61, w kapłaństwie 36.") _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:44, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 02:48, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
• Abstrain for now. Contemporary (older) sources we have use Polish spelling (obituary cited above, PSB from 1930s). Granted, none stress his Polishness (or Lithuanisness). Newer sources (Lithuanian) say he was Lithuanian and spell his name in a Lithuanian fashion. This is very borderline. I'll wait to see if more sources or arguments appear. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:25, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose but suggest relisting. The nomination and support !vote both show no understanding of the issues. What do English sources call him? I guess it's implied that if they say he's Lithuanian, they would use the Lithuanian spelling, but they may not. Andrewa (talk) 13:15, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

  There don't seem to be much English sources, and the bulk of international sources use Lithuanian, so I reckon we should use the Lithuanian spelling. Ortizesp (talk) 00:04, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

  What are those international sources that use Lithuanian? I do recall Lithuanian sources using Lithuanian, sure. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:47, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Andrewa Due to no English sources mentioning this person, it is impossible to appeal to those non-existent sources. In terms of non-English sources, more sources for this person exist in Lithuanian instead of Polish, and those Lithuanian sources give the man's name in Lithuanian. Unsurprisingly so, because the person was born and grew up in Lithuania, is known to have edited/written in Lithuanian and etc., which would indicate deeper ties with Lithuania instead of Poland. Cukrakalnis (talk) 12:02, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

  Interesting... That suggests to me that the article should instead be deleted, or perhaps merged to some other article, making the article title moot. Andrewa (talk) 20:02, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

  Well according to WP:NBIO, if the "person has an entry in a country's standard national biographical dictionary" it's notable, and Abelewicz has an entry in Polish Biographical Dictionary as "Józef Abelewicz". Marcelus (talk) 20:42, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

  No, that section reads People are likely to be notable if they meet any of the following standards. Failure to meet these criteria is not conclusive proof that a subject should not be included; conversely, meeting one or more does not guarantee that a subject should be included. (My emphasis) Andrewa (talk) 20:55, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

  Ah ok, then the question is open, I don't have strong opinion on that Marcelus (talk) 21:00, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

  The article suggests that he is notable because he wrote sermons and edited the writings of the Lithuanian bishop Motiejus Valančius but the article on that bishop does not mention him, nor does the article on his birthplace Anykščiai.

  It's not looking good. If there is an article to which we could merge this content, it's not obvious which one. In which case, is the article content encyclopedic? Andrewa (talk) 22:14, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

  I think it is; inclusing in PSB is sufficient - it has been in the past, and it is an accepted notability guideline for biographies on pl wiki. Although you can always try AfD if you disagree. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:05, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

  Can you give an example of where English Wikipedia has accepted it? We are not bound by the Polish Wikipedia guidelines. Andrewa (talk) 08:37, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

  Sure, but rector of the Vilnius Diocesan Seminary is I think good enough claim to notability, don't you think? Marcelus (talk) 09:25, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

  Depending on the size and reputation of the Vilnius Diocesan Seminary and the duties of the position of rector, it might. Have we any information on that? I notice that we as of yet have no article on the seminary. If we had one it might be a suitable redirect target. Andrewa (talk) 09:51, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

  Well it was one of the oldest seminaries in PLC and olderst one in Lithuania, established in 1580s. At that time was the only catholic seminary in western provinces of the Russian Empire, next to Kaunas. And the university was abolished in 1830s so it was the only place of higher learning. Marcelus (talk) 13:23, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

  Do an archive AfD search for Polish Biographical Dictionary/Polski Słownik Biograficzny. Also, meeting ANYBIO#3 is met, as was noted. I have yet to see any bio meeting it deleted; in this case "likeky notable" effectively means notable. Anyway, as far as I am concerned, discussing notability here is both off topic and in general pointless. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:44, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

  The birthplace mentions him here: Anykščiai#Notable natives and residents. Cukrakalnis (talk) 15:27, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

It may be noted that on 12 December 2009, two days after the creation of his article, the entry for "Józef Abelewicz, Polish theologian" was appended to the article delineating his birthplace, Anykščiai. That entry remained unchanged for nearly 14 years, until 30 September 2023, when it was revised to "Jonas Juozapas Abelevičius, Lithuanian priest". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 09:03, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

@Darwinek whose 2009 edit you mentioned. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:20, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.