Talk:In Our Time (short story collection)

Fair use rationale for Image:Inourtime.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 17:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

In Our Time vs. in our time

These are not typos - they are titles of two separate volumes, so please don't change. Thanks. Truthkeeper (talk) 22:07, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Page move

I object. Formerly Truthkeeper88, now Victoria (talk) 22:45, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Image deletion

I've just noticed that the image of the 1924 edition has been deleted, [1]. The publication history of in our time/In Our Time is massively complicated but also extremely important to Hemingway's development. The 1924 Paris edition contained 18 vignettes - paragraph sized pieces of prose that today we'd characterize as "flash-fiction" and no short stories. The 1925 American edition contained the same vignettes, but they were called interchapters and placed between 15 short stories. Two of the 1924 vignettes were rewritten as short stories for the 1925 edition. The first book begat the second, but neither is identical to the other. It's really important, imo, to include both for historical and documentary purposes. I was gone when this happened and unable to comment, but would like to get the 1924 image back. Pinging George Ho, who deleted, and Crisco 1492, Nikkimaria and SlimVirgin for advice. This article is very slowly making its way toward FAC; had hoped for a run this year as a 1915 WWI anniversary. Thanks all. Victoria (tk) 21:23, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

It seems that George Ho removed it from the article, then because it was unused fair use Cryptic deleted it. Perhaps Cryptic would be willing to undelete it so you can use it again. Sarah (SV) ^(talk) 21:30, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

The short story anthology is still copyrighted. I checked the records at one catalog via Internet Archive. What you are describing is a front cover. I think one is enough; we'll wait until 2021 to have that image undeleted as free to use. --George Ho (talk) 21:55, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Victoria, Cryptic has undeleted it (File:In our time Paris edition 1924.jpg) and reset the clock for unused fair use. So it's a question now of restoring it to the page by 7 June to avoid deletion, and discussing whether there's consensus to retain it. Sarah (SV) ^(talk) 22:20, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Sarah for advice on how to proceed. I was about to log out for a few days, but I quickly grabbed the first source at hand to boost the FUR on File:In our time Paris edition 1924.jpg (thanks to Cryptic for putting it back) and I'll add to it over the next few days. Thanks, too, to George Ho for reinstating. The file name for File:In Our Time (Ernest Hemingway) 1st edition cover.jpg should maybe be renamed, because it's an image of the 1925 edition which contains the collection of short stories whereas the deleted File:In our time Paris edition 1924.jpg does not contain short stories. Although they have the same title, and as I explained above, one begat the other, they are two different collections. Ideally when this goes to FAC the image reviewers there would decide, but this is one of the most difficult pages I've ever worked so it can't be rushed.

In terms of consensus, I support the inclusion of both images and particularly of the image of the exceedingly rare 1924 Paris Three Mountains Press edition because Ezra Pound's commission of the 1924 edition started Ernest Hemingway's prose/fiction writing career at age 25 and for historical purposes I believe Wikipedia should show both images. I don't know how many people watch this page though, so don't have a sense of how to gain consensus. Victoria (tk) 23:50, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Do we know who designed the 1924 cover - was it Bird himself, Hemingway, someone else? The 1925 FUR is currently far inferior to the 1924 version so if both are fair use it will need to be boosted as well, but I wonder if the 1924 might be out of copyright, depending on creator details. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:06, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Nikkimaria - good question. Not Hemingway. Either Bird or possibly Robert McAlmon but I was scanning quickly. Bird owned the publishing company but it really needs some research. Yes, the 1925 image needs considerable boosting too, but all my sources are packed away so it will take a few days - the notes I have are about themes, style, etc. and I've skipped the design information, but there is a fair amount of info. Presumably I still have a week to do this? Victoria (tk) 00:16, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Yep - let me know what you find out with regards to authorship, when you have the time. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:25, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok thanks. Before looking at the hardcopy sources I have, I did a quick internet search. The cover art for the 1924 book was designed by Bill Bird but apparently that book was might have been left in the public domain b/c no copyright can be found for it according to sources. The 1925 cover art was designed by Boni & Liveright - now defunct - I found the 1925 copyright on the Upenn database, but also found an article Michael Reynolds wrote (the foremost and most recent biographer) saying that copyright was never renewed. Unfortunately that info is in snippet view (I've taken screen prints) but it looks like it's from a journal article that I'll have to track down - it also seems to discuss the copyright of the 1924 work. Definitely it will take a week to get through all of this info. Victoria (tk) 01:37, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

The 1925 one was renewed, so it's still copyrighted. See this link. --George Ho (talk) 02:40, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Long update: Thanks George for that link; I'd missed it. This is a fairly complicated situation, one reason the article is taking such a long time to write.

• Michael Reynolds writes in Critical essays on Ernest Hemingway's In our time that the 1924 Paris edition lacked a copyright notice, here. But it's only a snippet view so I've ordered the book via interlibrary loan to read the chapter he wrote about copyright. I don't know if it will discuss the cover art. The issue of the prose being in the public domain seems to be more important.
• Apparently when Boni & Liveright published In Our Time in the US in 1925, they also secured copyright for all the vignettes and stories, all but four of which (according to Reynolds) had been published in little magazines or the Paris in our time edition, and might have been in the public domain. See here for that information, [2].
• According to Carlos Baker in Hemingway: The Writer as Artist, Bill Bird did design the cover art for the 1924 edition, File:In our time Paris edition 1924.jpg. This is the edition that Reynolds says Bird failed to add a copyright notice to. I know nothing about where cover art falls into the all of this.
• Scribner's bought the rights to In Our Time from Boni & Liveright and issued an edition (with an additional story) in 1930. The 1930 Scribner's edition has different cover art; it looks like this. Almost certainly the artist was Cleonike Damianakes who did the cover art for The Sun Also Rises and A Farewell to Arms.
• Scribner's reissued again in 1955, with yet a different dust-jacket. Presumably the copyright renewal George posted above in 1953 was in preparation for that reissue and it covered the stories, vignettes, etc. but again I'm unclear whether it covered the dustjacket image.
• Finally, I have found facsimile editions being sold of the 1924 Paris book w/ Bird's cover art, which makes me think the cover might be in the public domain.
• I've boosted the FUR even more for both files, File:In our time Paris edition 1924.jpg, and File:In Our Time (Ernest Hemingway) 1st edition cover.jpg.
• I'm hoping this will be sufficient to keep both images. If there's more information to be found in Reynolds' book, I'll add when it arrives. Victoria (tk) 00:21, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Second longish update: the Reynolds book has arrived and the snippet linked above is actually from an essay in the book, (Hageman, E. R. "A Collation, with Commentary, of the Five Texts of the Chapters in Hemingway's In Our Time". in Michael Reynolds, (ed.) Critical essays on Ernest Hemingway's In our time.) This is a very confused and complicated situation, and frankly I'm not sure I'll get the article finished because it's too difficult to disentangle the publishing history. There were five version of the work, with different editors' hand's at work, tweaking the writing, etc. etc. According the essay's author, there isn't any evidence that the 1924 Paris edition was copyrighted. The text Boni & Liveright bought (and then sold to Scribners) is different than the 1924 text. Where cover art comes into this, I don't know. Do the FURs as written convey an adequate amount of information? Victoria (tk) 23:20, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

The first ... sort of

Note from Ernest Hemingway that Three Stories and Ten Poems, with 3 short stories, was published before this one ... but not by a publishing house, so "first published" is technically true for this one, using the usual meaning of "published". Still, I went with the phrase "first professionally published" for TFA. - Dank (push to talk) 17:10, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Changed my mind, I'm going with "first book of stories, including 14 short stories". That's accurate, the best I can tell, since Three Stories and Ten Poems wasn't a book. - Dank (push to talk) 03:13, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Seems like good call Dan. Ceoil (talk) 07:09, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

"Give us peace in our time" is not the BCP phrase

The correct quotation is "Give peace in our time, O Lord" (no "us") - as found in the versicles and responses used at morning and evening prayer in the Book of Common Prayer (BCP) (see the BCP text on the Church of England website). The priest says / sings "Give peace in our time, O Lord", and the response is "Because there is none other that fighteth for us, but only thou, O God". A Google search for "Give us peace in our time" + "book of common prayer" brings up this article as the first hit, various Hemingway-related hits thereafter (none of whom can have checked the original words in the Book of Common Prayer) and no actual quotations from the Book of Common Prayer - whereas the same search without the word "us" brings up lots of BCP-related hits. Bencherlite^Talk 01:44, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for checking and fixing. It's been in the article since before I came to it, see this old diff, but I suppose I should have been more diligent. Pleading that I got sidetracked is no excuse, but taking it to AN/I seems a little extreme. Thanks also to Curly Turkey for catching my sloppy mistakes. <bows her head in shame, twice on the same day>. Victoriaearle (tk) 01:52, 24 January 2017 (UTC)