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Extracts from Article Rebellion of the Alpujarras (1568-71)

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Quotation from article

Fall of Granada and the 1499–1501 Muslim revolts

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Forced conversion under Francisco Jiménez de Cisneros was one of the main causes of the rebellions.
Main article: Rebellion of the Alpujarras (1499–1501)

The Kingdom of Granada was the last Muslim-ruled state in Spain. After a long siege, the city of Granada fell to the Catholic Monarchs, Ferdinand and Isabel, in 1492. The Muslim population was initially tolerated under the terms of the Treaty of Granada: they were allowed to stay in their dwellings, to be judged according to their own laws, they would not be obliged to convert to Christianity.[1]

However, they did come under pressure to convert to Christianity, and growing discontent led to an uprising in 1499 in Granada city, quickly put down, and in the following year two more serious revolts in the mountain villages of the Alpujarra—the region below the Sierra Nevada. Ferdinand himself led an army into the area. There were also revolts in the western parts of the Kingdom. Suppression by the Catholic forces was severe; with the most violent episode occurring in Laujar de Andarax, where two hundred Muslims were burnt in the local Mosque.[2]

This revolt enabled the Catholics to claim that the Muslims had violated the terms of the Treaty of Granada, which were therefore withdrawn. Throughout the region, Muslims were now forced to choose between conversion to Christianity or exile. The vast majority chose conversion and became known as "Moriscos" or "New Christians", though many continued to speak Andalusian Arabic and to maintain their Moorish customs.[3]

References

  1. ^ Mármol I-xix; Fletcher pp. 314-321
  2. ^ Marmol IV-xxvii; Lea pp. 38-39
  3. ^ Harvey pp. 53-55

Extent of the rebellion

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When the rebellion began, the Kingdom of Granada counted barely 150,000 inhabitants, most of them Moriscos. The exact number who rebelled is unknown, but the ambassadors of France and of the Republic of Genoa at the Madrid count estimated that there were 4,000 rebels in January 1569 and 25,000 by the spring of 1570, of whom some 4,000 were Turks or Berbers from North Africa who had come to support the rebellion.[1]

On the other side, the royal army had at the beginning 2,000 foot-soldiers and 200 cavalry under the command of the Marqués de Mondéjar. The number increased substantially when Don John took charge: in the siege of Galera he had 12,000 men, while the Duke of Sesa at the same time commanded between 8,000 and 10,000 men.[2]

From its start in the Alpujarra, the rebellion spread to the plains and to other mountainous regions on the edges of the Kingdom. An particularly dramatic conflict took place on the ridge (penon) above Frigiliana, in the Axarquia, where entire families of Moriscos from all around had gathered: the siege lasted from June 1569 till September, when Spanish reinforcements were brought in by sea.[3] Moriscos living in the towns—including the capital, Almería, Málaga, Guadix, Baza and Motril—and their surrounding areas did not take part in the uprising, although they sympathised with it.[4]

This distinct attitude of the towns can be explained by the presence of a greater number of "Old Christians" and better integration of the Moriscos in these communities. On the other hand, in the Alpujarra and other regions, where the rebellion caught on, there were villages where the only “Old Christian” was the parish priest.[5]

Dispersal and resettlement

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After the suppression of the revolt, a significant portion of the Morisco population was expelled from the former Kingdom of Granada. First rounded up and held in churches, then in harsh winter conditions, with little food, they were taken on foot in groups, escorted by soldiers; many died on the way. Many went to Cordova, others to Toledo and as far as Leon. Those from the Almería region were taken in galleys to Seville. The total number expelled has been estimated at some 80,000, or roughly half of Granada's Moriscos.[6]

The deportations meant a big fall in population, which took decades to offset; they also caused a collapse of the economy, given that the Moriscos were its main motor. Moreover, many fields lay uncultivated, orchards and workshops had been destroyed during the fighting.[7]

  1. ^ Dominguez & Vincent, pp.39-40
  2. ^ Dominguez & Vincent, pp.39-40
  3. ^ Tracy, p.43
  4. ^ Dominguez & Vincent, pp.41-47
  5. ^ Dominguez & Vincent, pp.45-46
  6. ^ Henry Lapeyre (28 November 2011): Geografía de la España morisca, Universitat de València. p. 14. ISBN 978-84-370-8413-8.
  7. ^ Tracy pp. 47-48

Muslims of Granada in 1499: Majority left and a few converted?

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I am asking for the last time for a revert to the original GA class content and for one change at a time to be discussed. I'm also going to request that this talk page is not refactored again, there has been so many changes and so much material copied from other articles I cannot make head nor tail of it. WCMemail 17:11, 20 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've done it, and I agree that the talk page should be simplified and not refactored after the event, as far as possible. I've reduced the extremely long title on the section formerly called "WEE CURRY MONSTER" to "Follow on from RFC", which describes what the section is (it is not a new discussion on a different topic).
I note that I have found it very difficult to tell what arguments are being made in favour of the changes proposed. It might help if we were clearer if editors proposing change made it clear on talk what changes they propose. Kahastok talk 17:36, 20 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Kahastok You understand full well that 21 historical sources provided above directly contradict the version of the article that you are pushing. Pretending you don't understand this is acting in bad faith yet a strategy that can only take you so far. Btw, so far no editors involved in this "GA consensus" of yours have come in your support.Asilah1981 (talk) 16:48, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It has been 24 hours since Kahastok edited the article to a version claiming that a majority of Muslims were expelled from the Kingdom of Granada in 1499, contrary to every single academic source on Spanish history available in any language. 21 sources sources with page numbers have been provided above. Since no argument has been forwarded in the last 24 hours in favor of this claim and since no editor involve in the FA has come forward to defend this statement, I am reverting to the corrected (and evidently correct) version.Thank you.Asilah1981 (talk) 17:00, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Could you please do as asked, just stop the constant bad faith attacks, accept that there is an existing consensus, that this article is a GA class article. We would like to maintain that status. The reason you are being reverted is the article content is currently sourced, you are simply stating this is wrong. Now start by explaining what you believe needs to be improved, focus on content not editors. Use the talk page please. WCMemail 17:17, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am not pushing any particular version of the article (still - I have pointed this out to you several times now) except insofar as I feel the consensus from the Featured Article nomination should remain until there is consensus to change it. I have no idea whether those sources directly contradict the consensus version or not.

However, I won't support you if I'm not clear on what change you want and why. By which I mean, I want to know - civilly and without accusation or edit warring - what the change is you want to make, why you want to make it, and what sources are backing up each section (and that needs to be clear, so that I can easily work out for myself why you feel the source backs the text). I can see the edit history, but I want to know what parts of it you feel are important and what parts are not. I'm not getting that so far.

If you are unwilling to make a case for the change you wish to make, but instead continue with the ad hominem I will be forced to assume that there is no case for it and thus oppose the change on that basis. Kahastok talk 17:25, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ok now that the article has been protected, obviously at the WP:WRONG version, perhaps it will give an opportunity to actually have that discussion. WCMemail 17:30, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This article, has a patent error, which is the claim that a majority of Muslims were expelled/left to North Africa from the Kingdom of Granada in 1499. I don't know how many times I have to say it. I have provided 21 historical sources to support the existence of this rather embarrassing error for an GA article. The evidence is above for all editors to read. Again, as per WP:JDL, demanding a consensus is not a valid argument to revert a correction of a mistake in an article. Particularly, when the members of this "consensus" against change is limited to two editors. I will attempt to assume good faith one last time: Kahastok Do you believe, as per the version of the article you are supporting, that a majority of Muslims left the Kingdom of Granada in 1499 and only a few converted to Catholicism? Do you believe this is a historical fact? Asilah1981 (talk) 17:32, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Could you try rewriting that without making any comments about other editors. If you can remove them, perhaps we can start this discussion. WCMemail 17:34, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wee Curry Monster, Kahastok: Do you believe it is historical fact that 1) A majority of Muslims in Granada were expelled to North Africa in 1499, with only a few converting? Do you believe 2) that 600,000 Moriscos were expelled from Spain in the early 17th century? Do you believe, as per the current version of the article, that these statements are correct? Do you believe that they are supported by historical sources on this period of Spanish history?Asilah1981 (talk) 17:43, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Could you manage to make a comment without any reference to other editors please. WCMemail 17:46, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wee Curry MonsterI don't understand what you are saying. Do you mean I can't address you personally? Would "a user" like me to address him in the third person. Could "a user" please answer my question so we may focus on the content of this article?Asilah1981 (talk) 17:50, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You don't need to address another editor to discuss content, simply state what you believe is an error and what you propose to replace it with. WCMemail 17:51, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wee Curry Monster I am addressing the user who is blocking the correction, as is customary on Wikipedia. The errors are that 1) All historical sources on Spanish history claim that only a small minority of Muslims were allowed to leave the Kingdom of Granada in 1499, the vast majority converting 2) No historical source claims that more than more than 300,000 Moriscos were expelled from Spain nor does any historical source claim that all moriscos were expelled from Spain. The article currently claims that the majority of Muslims of Granada were expelled in 1499 with only a few converting and that "all 600,000 Moriscos were expelled from Spain in 1609. I have provided the sources above. Does the editor who has been involved in this edit conflict, has reverted these corrections and who does not want to be addressed directly disagree with these two points?Asilah1981 (talk) 18:04, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wee Curry Monster, Kahastok: I am waiting for content-based arguments on why you believe the article should state that 1) A majority of Muslims of Granada were expelled in 1499 and 2) "All 600,000 Moriscos were expelled from Spain in 1609". Please refrain from using the argument that "there is no consensus" (with you) for correcting mistakes on the article as per WP:OWN and WP:JDL.EdJohnston can perhaps help guide this discussion? Asilah1981 (talk) 18:59, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No. It is you who needs to persuade other people of the merits of your change.

I have no idea what happened. Haven't read the sources you've provided - how can I? They appear to be mostly books that I don't have access to or links that don't work. I came here with an open mind, but also understanding the basic rule here which is that the standing consensus applies until consensus is found to change it.

You haven't made a case for your change. You've asserted that you're right, but you haven't made the case. Or at least none that I can find without spending ages trawling through personal attacks and walls of text. If everyone agrees, that's not a problem, but they didn't. There was opposition to your proposal, and you haven't made a case as to why anyone should support it.

How can I or anyone else support your position without knowing why? Saying it's right and pointing vaguely at dozens of sources that you claim support you is not going to persuade people. Abusing people is not going to persuade them. What you need to do is make it easy for me and others to support your position, including changing it as needed to address concerns raised. You haven't done that. You haven't even tried to do that. Kahastok talk 19:33, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

OK guessing at what the first thing you're objecting to is, I'm guessing because you haven't actually told me. I'm guessing its this sentence:


Which is sourced to Jackson, p.71. Is that what you're objecting to? WCMemail 19:53, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. That is a mistake and denied by the entire body of academia on Spanish history. I have already provided you enough authoritative sources and have tried to explain why the statement is ludicrous from a historical perspective. The other mistake is the assertion that "all 600,000 Moriscos were expelled from Spain in 1609". No historical source gives a figure anywhere near that number and no source asserts that all Moriscos were expelled from Spain. Asilah1981 (talk) 20:40, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
One thing at a time please. So you say it is ludicrous, why? WCMemail 20:42, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Because All academic sources claim that A) The vast majority of Muslims in Granada converted to Christianity after the 1st Muslim rebellion in 1499-1501, only those who could pay 10 doblas (a huge amount of money), were allowed to emigrate B) Because all academic sources state that by the time the Muslims/Moriscos rebelled again in 1568, they constituted the majority of the population of the Kingdom of Granada. C) Because at the end of this long war between the Spanish State and Muslims of Granada, 80,000 of Granada's Muslims were deported to other parts of Spain, this is the figure given by all sources. the Kingdom of Granada's population before this second rebellion is estimated at 150,000 a majority of which were Muslims/Moriscos according to all available academic sources.
Therefore, the statement given in P. 71 of Jackson is a mistake and contrary to all other available sources -contrary to all authoritative and specialized sources. It is an understandable act of sloppiness. The writer is not a specialist in Spanish history but intended to write a book about Gibraltar. It is a mistake nonetheless, which should be corrected.Asilah1981 (talk) 20:53, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wee Curry Monster Let me know if you need to me list out the sources here. I thought the pasted material above with the relevant sourced statements highlighted in bold was enough. Is it difficult for you to understand? Maybe I can assist you somehow?Asilah1981 (talk) 21:16, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
OK then you'll be able to provide sources and quotes to back that up then. WCMemail 21:22, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So what it sounds like is that it's a question of numbers. Let's avoid hyperbolic language like "ludicrous". You say that some were expelled but most remained, the text says that most were expelled but some remained. Have I got that right?

If so, could you provide some quotes - ideally from texts we can see online, with page numbers so that we can easily see the context - so that we can see what exactly you are basing this conclusion on? Kahastok talk 21:25, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I can, but as an act of good faith, could you please read the highlighted sections of the Wikipedia articles posted above? And also check the sourcing? It will be much less laborious than for me compiling a bibliography here (although I could compile a much more detailed one).
Just so you understand what I'm saying: A) Jackson claims the vast majority of Muslims of Granada emigrated to North Africa in 1499 with only a few converting to Catholicism. B) It is historical fact that in 1571 the Spanish state deported over half of the total population of the Kingdom of Granada to other parts of Spain (80,000 people out of 150,000) as a result of the Muslim rebellion and consequent 3 year war in the region of Granada (1568-1571). Do you see a contradiction between Statement (A) (1499) and well documented historical event (B) (1571)? I hope we can move forward on this. Asilah1981 (talk) 21:29, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Question 2, no I don't necessarily. I mean, given those two as assumed facts, we can posit plausible scenarios. People have babies, and a mass-relocation of people still in Granada in 1571 doesn't mean that most didn't already leave in 1499. If the vast majority of people leave a place, that doesn't mean that the remainder can't then rebel against something. Moreover, if we're saying that the 1571 population were Muslims, that would in principle be quite difficult if they'd all converted to Christianity 70 years earlier. But it's not our job to posit scenarios. We don't come to our own conclusions, we go based on the sources.
Question 1, I'm afraid I can't check the sourcing because the citations mean nothing to me and the links don't work for me. So far as I know, I don't have access to the relevant books. Kahastok talk 21:51, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Kahastok The Henry Lea Charles source specifically says the vast majority of Muslims converted to Christianity in p.65 and the Carr source says so specifically in p.35. They both specifically say that only a tiny minority left for North Africa. This is contrary to what your version says. Do I have to scan the books and mail them to you so you allow for the change? I can do that if you like if you provide me with your email address. Asilah1981 (talk) 22:06, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
KahastokBy the end of 1501, the rebellion was put down. The Muslims were no longer given their rights provided by the Treaty of Granada,[1] and were given the choice of: (1) remain and accept baptism, (2) reject baptism and be enslaved or killed, or (3) be exiled.[2] Given the expensive fee exacted for passage out of Spain, in reality conversion were the only realistic options for them.[2][3] Therefore, only a decade after the fall of the Emirate of Granada, the entire Muslim population of Granada had nominally become Christian.[3]
KahastokIs this not enough for you? Here is the bibliography. Do you want me to scan the relevant pages for you so you are assured that they are correct? I'm not sure if this is what is normally required but I can make the effort if you ask me to. However, if you look below, I think some of these you can access online and confirm yourself.

Asilah1981 (talk) 22:32, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I for one would like to know exactly what the sources say, we found in Talk:Gibraltar that the sources you quoted didn't always match with what you were citing. WCMemail 22:38, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wee Curry Monster, are you saying that if I don't mail you a scanned copy of the relevant pages in the book you will accuse me of lying? These citations are already present in Wikipedia and were not included by me. I can send mail them to you but don't you think this is abusive behavior, making me spend money? I will do so if required, but somehow I'm sure this is not against wikipedia policy. Mike V, Bbb23, EdJohnston; Could you explain to me whether I have to scan a copy or find some other way to demonstrate that cited content present in wikipedia (not added by me) is not incorrect or just me lying? I have come to a dead end here. I don't know what else I can do. I have offered to scan and email them the books. Is there any other way?Asilah1981 (talk) 23:09, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No that isn't what I'm saying at all, I am asking for you to share excerpts from the books that support what you're claiming. I have never asked you to scan anything or accused you of lying. But Talk:Gibraltar#Language section here for example, we have found that the stated citation didn't back up the claim attributed to it. I just looked at an overview of one of the books you claim support this and in that it states that Spain ethnically cleansed its muslim population. I don't think its unreasonable to ask what element of that book contradicts Jackson. WCMemail 23:51, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wee Curry Monster:Spain did indeed attempt to ethnically cleanse its Muslim population between 1609-1614. To what extent the expulsion was successful in expelling the Moriscos is subject to academic debate (see below), but yes Islam was broken as an indigenous religion. But the issue here is the timeline is wrong. It did not attempt to do so in 1499. After the 1499-1501 war it made emigration of Muslims impossible except for the extremely wealthy. That is why Granada became a majority "Morisco" region. Priorly it had been majority Muslim, then the Muslim masses were baptized en masse because they had no other option. (Morisco a nominal Christian/Recent convert from Islam) If only a few Muslims has remained to convert to Catholicism, they could hardly have taken on the Spanish Army in a three year war 70 years later! (They would have lasted longer or maybe even kicked out the Spanish armies with better leadership!) You understand what I mean by it being sloppy history? So if I just copy the excerpts from the books here you will take it for face value, Wee Curry Monster?Asilah1981 (talk) 00:13, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A later revolt is not, as Kahastok noted above evidence that those who remained were the majority. I will take things on WP:AGF but I may have further questions. In addition, the sources you quoted do seem to quite emphatically come down on the side of an expulsion. WCMemail 00:21, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank youW. It is honestly appreciated. I do not deny there was an expulsion. There was, but 110 years later. That expulsion together with some early episodes in the discovery of the Americas were perhaps the biggest stains in Spain's history. In Valencia it was particularly brutal and completely destroyed the economy of this coastal region by depopulating much of the rural areas. This was due to the bad blood the Catalan-speaking midle-class had against the local Muslims, which boiled over a few years earlier in the Revolt of the Brotherhoods. But we are discussing an expulsion that was the early 1600s - what we are simultaneously discussing below.01:43, 22 August 2016 (UTC)Asilah1981 (talk)
For god's sake. Anyone with the slightest idea about the topic knows the bulk of the Morisco expulsion took place in the early 17th century, not the late 15h century. Period. This mixing of "forced conversions of muslims" and "expulsion of moriscos" is flat out ridiculous.--Asqueladd (talk) 12:12, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Asqueladd: Apparently not. I continue to assume good faith (I have no other choice really) but this is my most surreal exchange on Wikipedia ever. Could we bring other editors into this discussion who are knowledgeable of Spanish history.Asilah1981 (talk) 17:24, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm following on from my previous comment here to some degree, I've read the above, but it is sufficiently unclear that I would like to make sure that I understand what we're talking about.

The point at dispute is whether the majority of the Muslim population were expelled in 1499 (currently claimed), or whether a minority were expelled and a majority remained.

To my mind it is not sufficient to provide links to entire books without telling me what I'm supposed to find where. Can we have a quotation from a source that makes the latter point please? If you copy it out into the talk page with the name of the book and a page reference, then we can easily see it and we're attributing properly. There may be questions (and an online link in addition would be useful), but it would help us move on.

If this is as well known a historical fact as is claimed, this should not be too difficult to do, I hope. Kahastok talk 17:20, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

 Comment: Extracted quotes from Jónsson, Már (2007). "The expulsion of the Moriscos from Spain in 1609–1614: the destruction of an Islamic periphery". Journal of Global History. 2 (2). Cambridge University Press: 195–212. ISSN 1740-0228.:

 Question: Happy now? Do you deal fine with thousands and hundreds of thousands? I learned about it at the kindergarten. Talk about people wasting the precious time of editors here, sigh.--Asqueladd (talk) 18:02, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A major reason why this has taken so long is that the above conversation has been marked by remarks like that, frankly. If there had been fewer insults, less shrillness and less edit warring and more actual good faith discussion about what the issues are and why people think the status quo is incorrect, this whole thing would have been done much more easily.
I find, as described above though, that we haven't yet demonstrated the key point. Per WP:SYN, we are not allowed to combine sources and reach conclusions that neither source reaches. Per WP:NOR, if it's the same source, similarly, we can't reach a conclusion that the source doesn't reach.
The question is the comparative. Was it a lot more who remained or a lot more who fled? "Thousands of Muslims fled to North Africa, and many more were baptised en masse" doesn't tell us either way. The text about later events is a separate issue, not relevant to a discussion specifically about 1499; linking them to draw a conclusion the source doesn't make is WP:OR.
We could, of course, try to find a text that that doesn't provide any comparison in numbers at all on this point, e.g. that simply reports that "thousands" fled and many more were forced to convert. We don't have to adopt the precise text previously proposed, we can formulate a new one that reflects all sources presented. Kahastok talk 18:47, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Kahastok I think the point that Asqueladd is making is that this is very very basic history and there isn't a "range of views" which must be presented. Anyone who is acquainted with Spanish history will find this entire discussion completely insane and will have the tendency (as I did) to get annoyed/angry. There is the entire body of academia agreeing and a mistake in a passing comment made in the introductory section of a book about Gibraltar by Jackson. Allowing his mistake to be accommodated gives it undue weight. See: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources_and_undue_weight Frankly, you would find many more sources denying the holocaust than supporting the statement you are trying to keep here. There is a reason why a range of views on whether the holocaust happened is not presented on wikipedia. Even WCM, who can't be accused of taking my side on things, has decided to accept the content of reliable sources and has assumed good faith. Asilah1981 (talk) 19:10, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sigh, just when I think we're getting somewhere we're back to square one with aggressive name calling, very, very uncool. I'm going to copy a suggestion above from DrKay as a text proposal.
This being an article about Gibraltar I don't believe detailed information on this subject is required. Do you think you comment on the content only. My final comment, this being the English Wikipedia editors rely on what sources say on the subject, so when there is a conflict it is better to explain what is wrong in a calm manner, if you charge in like a bull in a china shop shouting its WRONG, all the English editors are IGNORANT and you have to speak Spanish to understand, well arguing from authority never goes down well. WCMemail 19:27, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
How you have to speak spanish, mate? I have just presented you a source in english. In any case, for what is worth you can have your glaringly wrong featured article as it is, WRONG. I am gone for good.--Asqueladd (talk) 19:52, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Like it or not, we need a source that actually makes the comparison, or we can't make the comparison. If Jackson is wrong, there's no problem with that, but we need that to be demonstrated. We can't just declare him wrong without evidence.
Of course we don't have to make any kind of comparison at all. I would accept WCM's quote from DrKay - that's fine. That's supported by the quotes provided.
But it has to be said that for what you say is such a basic point, covered by all academia, that anyone acquainted with Spanish history will consider obvious, it is astonishing how difficult it is proving to find a source for it. Kahastok talk 20:09, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement in Article that "All 600,000 Moriscos were expelled from Spain in 1609-1614"

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The article currently states that Spain expelled "all of its 600,000 Moriscos" between 1609-1614. Apparently it is based on the Jackson book p.78. I do not have that book so I cannot confirm the book makes that mistake. I can confirm it is a mistake and contrary to the entire body of academia which assesses this period of history.

The highest estimates of Moriscos expelled are based on Henri Lapeyre's examination of crown documents in his now classic study Géographie de l'Espagne morisque, París, 1959 (see p.218. [4] according to which 270140 Moriscos were expelled. Antonio Dominguez Ortiz gives a figure of 300000 as does John Lynch (Spain under the Hapsburgs) and Henry Kamen (Spanish Inquisition). All of them give low figures of Moriscos remaining in Spain after 1609 expulsion of around 25,000 or 10-15% of pre-existing Morisco population.[5] However, more recent studies such as those of Trevor J. Dadson [6], Francois Martinez [7] and Bernard Lugan [8] have concluded that numbers of those permanently expelled were much lower and that https://books.google.es/books?id=g2LPBAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=es&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false much larger nuumbers remained or returned to Spain, particularly due to local resistance to the edict. Dadson considers that the expulsion was effectively a failure all over Spain due to their high level of integration. The only exception was Valencia, the only place where the measure had popular support. Regardless of the varying views, the last large scale prosecution of Moriscos for crypto-Islamic practices by Moriscos in Spain was in Granada in 1727, over a century after the expulsion. [9] The permanence and mass return of Moriscos to Seville, one example among many, is attested by French historian Miche Boeglin, to the point that in 1628, 14 years after the expulsion, the Inquisition ordered local inquisitors to no longer prosecute the growing Morisco population of the city.[10] Asilah1981 (talk) 22:45, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]



That's from your own sources listed above; it seems clear there was an "ethnic cleansing" to quote one of the authors. I also noted [1] which gives a figure of 500,000 expelled. It seems there is quite a wide variation in the estimates of numbers. I don't accept your assertion that Jackson is "wrong" as it seems there is a quite a disparity here. I'm unsure what weight to apply to it but I also found a source on the scattered Morisco population that suggested that the numbers were downplayed in Spanish texts. We should resolve this by presenting the range of numbers not just the lower estimates. WCMemail 00:16, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wee Curry Monster: Thanks for your feedback. Could you have another look at your source? It gives a figure of 500,000 Muslims present in Spain in 1492, not 500,000 expelled. It quotes Carr, I believe. No acadamic source claims 500,000 Moriscos were expelled from Spain. I should also mention that the source you use is an Islamic blog. Asilah1981 (talk) 00:29, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wee Curry Monster: And yes the Spanish Monarchy attempted to implement an ethnic cleansing - an awful crime. However, its success is the source of academic debate with recent authors such as Trevor J. Dadson among many others pointing to the edict of expulsion being systematically ignored at a local level, particularly in the Kingdom of Castile/Andalusia. In any case, there is no doubt that Moriscos remained in Spain since they continued to be prosecuted by the Inquisition well into the 18th century. The main issue I have is saying that "all 600,000 Moriscos were expelled" since neither all were expelled nor is the figure of 600,000 present in any academic source on the matter.Asilah1981 (talk) 00:35, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Its present in Jackson though isn't it, I simply did a search to test your assertion and I straight away picked up sources that indicated there were higher estimates. Islamic scholars also assert that Spanish scholars downplay the numbers. I don't believe its our job to decide who is right but simply to reflect the range of opinions. WCMemail 00:53, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wee Curry Monster I don't know which Islamic scholars you are referring to but I would beg we avoided slipping into the realm of science fiction. We are talking about world-class peer-reviewed academic studies. The entire body of academia focused on 15th an 16th century Spanish history. The seminal works which are studied in British and American top-level Universities: Henry Lapeyre, Ortiz, Henry Kamen, Bernard Vincent, Michel Beoglin, John Lynch, Trevor Dadson, Joseph Pérez..... None of the the studies I have cited were published by Spaniards, (who incidentally have the historical tendency to exaggerate the number of Moriscos expelled, not minimize them). The authors cited here are mainly French and British among other nationalities. They are or were the top experts in this specific field we are discussing. I don't want to appear disrespectful, but misquoting what is written by some kid in a blog (Islamic or not) is just not good enough to support Jackson's passing assertion which, together with his other comment on the Muslims of Granada in 1499, demonstrate he should have read more thoroughly about Spanish history before writing those statements in that introductory section of his book. Wee Curry Monster Honestly, I know we have been in a confrontational mindset. I don't want to "beat" you. But these are two historical errors on a wikipedia article. There is no reason not to correct them. Maybe I have been POV on other matters. But on this its clear-cut historical fact. Asilah1981 (talk) 01:19, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wee Curry Monster, in this link you will find a book which is a collection of articles written by academic experts in the field of the Expulsion of the Moriscos. They discuss estimates on numbers expelled and on numbers expelled and on how many remained (among many other questions related to the expulsion of the moriscos. The writers refer to the entire historiography on the matter. As you will confirm, estimates are below the 300,000 mark and all authors discuss the significant numbers which remained and were assimilated. how many remained (among many other questions related to the expulsion of the moriscos. The writers refer to the entire historiography on the matter. As you will confirm, estimates are below the 300,000 mark and all authors discuss the significant numbers which remained and were assimilated. https://books.google.es/books?id=g2LPBAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=es&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false Asilah1981 (talk) 01:38, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Asqueladd Do you have any feedback on this part of the dispute. I am trying to explain that no source says 600,000 Moriscos were expelled (that this is a ludicrous figure, particularly for a country of 5 million people), nor does any academic source say that all were expelled. Furthermore, all recent studies such as Dadson's (the most well known currently) also point to a much less thorough and efficient endeavor than prior historians had assumed, particularly in Castile and Andalusia, where there was generalized local resistance to the decree. Dadson estimates that around 40% (or 200,000) never left the country and about 70,000 managed to return (see p.184 https://books.google.es/books?id=RtDCAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA168&lpg=PA168&dq=Dadson+expulsion+failure&source=bl&ots=ydqTY5Ai17&sig=LooWt224rhhgINOcueD9pz3Ddw8&hl=es&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiV1bOf2NXOAhUIrRoKHYNwCz4Q6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=Dadson%20expulsion%20failure&f=false). Ortiz's and Lapeyre's earlier estimates were much lower, with an estimate of only around 25,000 evading the expulsion. No need to go into details since the article is about Gibraltar, but wording should be changed in the sentence as per historical consensus. i.e. something on the lines of "A majority/significant portion of Spain's hundreds of thousands of Moriscos were expelled". Asilah1981 (talk) 01:38, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Asilah1981 your own sources state that there was an ethnic cleansing that removed the muslim/morisco population from Spain. Are you now saying that the sources you supplied are wrong? WCMemail 19:30, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wee Curry Monster. I repeat, maybe I haven't been clear enough the last 35 times I have had to repeat the same thing. Maybe if I use bold and caps it will be easier to follow. 'The article claims ALL Moriscos were expelled from Spain which is WRONG. It claims 600,000 Moriscos were expelled from Spain which is WRONG. No one is denying ethnic cleansing here. My own ancestors were subject to ethnic cleansing by the Spanish state FYI. Again Wee Curry Monster, I have to assume you are editing here in good faith. But taking a step back and looking at this thread objectively, it looks very much like a strategy of pretending not to understand sources or what is being written so as to wear out other editors. I'm not saying this is the case but it is what transpires. Asilah1981 (talk) 20:11, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]


The source supplied by Asilah1981, which I have accepted in good faith, with emphasis added. Are you Asilah1981 now saying this is wrong? Because I could take this source now and add this to the article as citing the current text. You keep shouting WRONG but when your own source confirms it, well I really don't know what to think.
I also looked at other sources, they seem to indicate that there is a fairly wide estimate of the numbers actually expelled. Now whilst I could readily accept an edit that reflects the range of estimates (reflecting the range of opinion in the literature) and equally well I could accept that given that is tangential to this article perhaps we don't need to put a number on it. But what I do have a problem is your proposal they weren't really expelled after all - the sources simply don't support it. WCMemail 21:20, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wee Curry Monster, I don't currently have access to Harvey's last chapter "aftermath", I will try to get it and quote it so we don't have to rely on a review. As I mentioned, I do not propose that the Moriscos were never expelled, how could I possibly propose something as stupid is that? I make it clear that there are different views on what proportion of them were expelled (ranging from 90% to about 50% among the main academic authorities). As you say, (thanks for reading my sources) there is also a range of numbers proposed on how many were expelled, but the highest we come across is 350,000 (only in an older Spanish source). By what I see the real divergence is not on the number of expelled but on the number of Moriscos present in Spain prior to the expulsion, which ranges from one million to numbers based on the total orders of expulsion which are recorded to this day ( around 275,000). If we discussed in good faith we could find neutral wording which would correct the error. Do you know that if you just removed the word "all" and the actual number given, I would drop this one and we would save ourselves a lot of time? As you say, this is about Gibraltar so no need to go into details.Asilah1981 (talk) 21:40, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So if the text were changed from:

To:

You would drop this? WCMemail

I would indeed drop it. Would you agree tweaking it to this? The term "Moors" feels outdated for 17th century Spanish Muslims and can be interpreted as slightly racist.

Asilah1981 (talk) 22:08, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm OK if Kahastok is onboard. WCMemail 22:10, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ok that is a breakthrough. Lets take a break for now.Asilah1981 (talk) 22:16, 22 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Fine by me. Kahastok talk 20:54, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request

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I believe there is now consensus in this section to replace

with

in the section "Barbary pirate raids and wars with other European powers".

The words "its entire population of 600,000" are replaced with "the", and the word "Moors" with "Muslims". Kahastok talk 19:24, 27 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  •  Not done As this page is no longer protected, it does not require administrators to update it. Please ensure that contentious changes have been discussed and established consensus here on the talk page. — xaosflux Talk 21:45, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Lea 1901, p. 35.
  2. ^ a b Harvey 2005, p. 48. sfn error: multiple targets (3×): CITEREFHarvey2005 (help)
  3. ^ a b Carr 2009, p. 74. sfn error: multiple targets (2×): CITEREFCarr2009 (help)
  4. ^ https://books.google.com/books?id=gDvwjcybT4UC&
  5. ^ https://books.google.es/books?id=g2LPBAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=es&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
  6. ^ http://www.bibliotecaspublicas.es/villarrubiadelosojos/imagenes/Dadson_Assimilation_Reality_or_Fiction.pdf
  7. ^ https://books.google.es/books/about/La_permanence_morisque_en_Espagne_apr%C3%A8s.html?id=p98pAQAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y
  8. ^ http://www.clio.fr/BIBLIOTHEQUE/le_maroc_et_l_occident_du_xvie_au_xxe_siecle.asp
  9. ^ Vínculos Historia: The moriscos who remained. The permanence of Islamic origin population in Early Modern Spain: Kingdom of Granada, XVII-XVIII centuries (In Spanish)
  10. ^ Michel Boeglin: La expulsión de los moriscos de Andalucía y sus límites. El caso de Sevilla (1610-1613) (In Spanish)
  11. ^ Carr, Matthew (2009). Blood and Faith: The Purging of Muslim Spain. New Press. ISBN 978-1-59558-361-1. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
  12. ^ Harvey, L .P. (16 May 2005). Muslims in Spain, 1500 to 1614. University of Chicago Press. ISBN 978-0-226-31963-6. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
  13. ^ Harvey, L .P. (16 May 2005). Muslims in Spain, 1500 to 1614. University of Chicago Press. ISBN 978-0-226-31963-6. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

'Tower of homage'

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This term in the caption to the photograph at the head of the section 'Moorish rule':-

"The 14th-century Tower of Homage, the largest surviving fragment of Gibraltar's Moorish Castle."

It is essentially a literal translation from Castilian Spanish and somewhat misleading. Rather than being an colourful, mediaeval remnant, unique to Gibraltar, torre de homenaje is the standard Spanish term for what would be described in English as the castle 'keep,' or donjon from the mediaeval Anglo-French, which I believe is the preferred academic term.

I see that the same translation has been used in the 'Moorish Castle' article linked. While 'Tower of Homage' may be Gibraltarian usage, reflecting the particular cultural and linguistic mix of that community, as well as being an attractive label for tourist purposes, perhaps the name should briefly be set in context.

SEE: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Keep JF42 (talk) 14:19, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

JF42 (talk) 14:00, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]


I note that in the structure referred to as the "Tower of Homage" has been referred to variously as the "Moorish Castle' and also the "Torre de Calahorra" which indicates that the current label may well be of comparitively modern date. JF42 (talk) 11:39, 17 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
See [2] I don't dispute your translation but that's what its called in the official guides. It may originally have been a mis-translation but the name appears to have stuck. WCMemail 08:25, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Section header

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The section header entitled "Umayyad rule (711–1309, 1333–1462)" is factually incorrect. Umayyad dynastic rule is but an early subperiod of Islamic rule.--Asqueladd (talk) 16:09, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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