Talk:Hip hop music/Archive 2

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Archive 5

UK Hip Hop

Can someone please rewrite the United Kingdom section? Grime IS NOT hip hop, and that includes Dizzee Rascal, Lady Sovereign and sort of Sway as well. (I'm new on Wikipedia, sorry if I messed something up here)

KRS One

Rap is something you do, hip hop is something you live.

Rap, religion and culture

According to the spanish Wikipedia Rap is the music and Hip Hop is the culture... Why the English wikipedia doesn't even adresses the fact that the term "Rap" was more popular than the term "Hip Hop" for this kind of music until the decline of the nineties? And... What about Catholic Rhythm And Poetry? It's not even mentioned I think but there are other religious variations to Hip Hop... Or I'm wrong and only catholics waste their time on such propaganda? Herle King 19:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Bias Against Certain Artists/Cultures

I found a few unsupported, possibly biased claims in the "Asia" section of this article.

Here they are, in bold:

"In Seoul, the Korean hip hop scene has expanded into a form of cultural phenomenon. Some fans assert that Korean hip hop artists possess skills that can rival their U.S. counterparts. Notable performers include Jo PD, Drunken Tiger, Psy, and Epik High. Some suggest that Korean hip hop music firmly stands as the respectable and socially-conscious antithesis to an often superficial and confused pop genre that pervades the Korean music industry.

Hip hop music started gaining popularity in South Korea in the mid-1990s. Famous mainstream Korean hip hop performers often resemble R&B or pop music with artists mimicking the vocal (and dance) styles of rap acts from the United States. Early performers—who rarely penned their own songs—included Kim Gun Mo, Seo Taiji and Boys, Deux, and DJ DOC. The Korean language was initially used almost exclusively, unlike modern Korean hip hop songs that heavily incorporates -grossly broken- English. Seo Taiji, coming from a questionable heavy metal music background, often featured heavy metal guitars in his mixes, and other artists also incorporated techno influences.

A few artists, including Seo Taiji and MC Sniper, also incorporated influences from traditional Korean music such as pansori or nongak (farmers' music). It was evident that the first acts were mimicking popular American acts. For instance, Seo Taiji's "Come Back Home" has vocal/production style resembling Cypress Hill. The first "rap" album that featured rap in every track was Kim Jin Pyo's first album in 1997. According to Epik High's rapper Tablo, "The form [of Korean Hip Hop], at least, has definitely been mastered now — the beats, the rhymes, the performances, the look — it’s indistinguishable from the United States scene. The social relevance, however, has a long way to go. The message is slowly catching up to the medium."

I certainly see bias here. I don't think these comments reflect the characteristic objectivity of encyclopedias, and thus these sections should either be backed up with concrete sources or be deleted. Moderators, please consider editing this section of the article.

Not RAP

HIP-HOP isnt RAP

HIP-HOP is a way of life and different urban ways of life that embody things like Graffiti, Break dancing, music, within music Rap and RnB are associated hip-hop styles of music...

I want to be an idealist like you, too, who has no idea what hip-hop is anymore. I want to live in the 1980s, before corporate America crushed breakdancing and made the rags-to-riches dream possible for inner city youth. I'm sure that somewhere in a corner of the universe that still isn't in the year 2006, people are doing what you're parroting about: graf, breaking, and "music." Unfortunately, for the rest of the world, hip-hop has been consolidated into a very competitive machine of just music. The rest of it all, from dancing to the fashion, comes from the videos and the live performances. You can still rep the archaic B-boy lifestyle all you want, you'll just look less and less relevant each day. --Mod 20:42, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm with him. To have rap redirect to hip-hop is a terrible terrible shame, one that only furthers the conglomeration that you identify,--Josh Rocchio 17:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

This is just a confusion made by the media... EVERYBODY should know that HIP-HOP is a culture, and RAP is the music of that culture. Unfortunaly, nowadays hip-hop is promoted so many times like music that the average people says "I'm listening hip-hop". That makes sick, because YOU CAN'T LISTEN HIP-HOP, YOU CAN'T LISTEN A CULTURE!!! What you listen to is rap, and don't forget about it.

Hip-hop music is not rap. There are several hip-hip music acts that sing, not R&B. Dudley Perkins is a good example. Also instrumentals see Madlib. I think hip hop music need to be redone from top to bottom. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.142.48.18 (talk) 03:25, 31 January 2007 (UTC).

I agree with the general sentiment about rap not being hip-hop. I somewhat agree with the fact that hip-hop culture is not as predominant as popular rap, but I disagree that it's as rare as described. I live in Chicago and we thrive on what's affectionately referred to as "underground hip-hop". I know graff artists who also make beats, b-boys who emcee, etc. etc. Of course it's both a blessing and a shame it's not on most people's radars, but that doesn't mean it's dying or archaic or nonexistent. But basically, without getting overly semantic, rap must include lyrics, and not all hip-hop does, as was pointed out (Madlib is a great example, as is RJD2). Hip-hop, after all, includes turntablism - beat juggling, mixing, scratching - which may have nothing to do with lyrics. Anyway, aside from the whole lifestyle/culture vs. music issue, my basic point is a track might be considered hip-hop but not rap, as with the aforementioned examples, so it makes sense that there be some differentiation within the article. Peccav1 22:56, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with that. It's all semantics. If you listen to most American "urban" radio stations or read music mags a rap track is listed in the hiphop genre. When used in this context it is understood that the word is separate from the cultural phenomenon. Hiphop music(don't shit yourself) is broadly music with: a beat, usually some sampling, more often than not a dj or producer that "mixes" various elements to make a whole, more often than not contain rapping or singing. Sometimes the music is preformed with a live band. Interestingly, hiphop music could encompass all of pop(non-rock/county) music today. I mean if you take the basic concept Gwen Stefani or the Pussy Cat Dolls could be hiphop.

Rap not hip-hop, a bit more

Yeah I agree with the above - rap is not equivalent to hip-hop (even a white UK boy like me can tell that) - although perhaps hip-hop is a derivative of rap. I don't know enough to say definitively, but I do know that it's not accurate at the moment. And I really think Gil Scott-Heron deserves a mention. Along with a few others. Robg 10:59, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

We all know Rap ain't Hip-hop. But the last time I checked, this article is about Hip-hop music which is the same as Rap music. Sabertooth 14:03, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that odd reply Sabertooth, however if you search for "rap" on wikipedia you end up at the "Hip Hop Music" page. Hence my point. And if you need help constructing slightly less pointlessly rude replies, here's a hint:

We all know Rap ain't Hip-hopYes, rap isn't hip-hop. But the last time I checked, this article is about Hhip-hop musicmusic which is the same as Rrap musicmusic. Robg 10:13, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

agreed. while no one should say that graffiti and break dancing aren't around anymore, you need to admit that the rap element is the most popular aspect of hip hop today and therefore deserves to be talked about more. stop being a snobby hip hop purist.

Reorg, more to come

I moved some stuff around. I thought it best to start what a description of what hip hop actually is, so I moved that stuff into a section at the top. I tend to think that should be expanded, and I'd like to move some of the detailed history stuff to history of hip hop music, where we can go into detail on every little thing that happened. I tend to our genre articles are history-heavy in general... I'm partially to blame for that. I also removed a section, put it in roots of hip hop music (because there's already a subarticle there, so I didn't have to write a summary). Tuf-Kat 08:25, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

And its done. The history section here could probably use a copyedit to make it flow better, since I mostly cobbled together bits and pieces from the various sections. Tuf-Kat 04:42, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

hiphop and rap are different. rap is rap. hiphop doesn't have to be rap. for example Ciara is a hiphop artists, but she is not a rapper in the least. This should be addressed

Theonejanitor I differentiate between Hip Hop as a style of music and rap as a style of music and I know that I'm not alone on this... I think that hip hop is typically more underground and complex and delves into deeper thematic themes while rap is more a part of popular culture and is thug stuff/gangsta stuff... 76.188.98.191 23:51, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Moved from top

A relative of rap actually predates Hip Hop music in country. If I understand what you mean by "country rap", (made popular by Johnny Cash and stuff like that?) Where they dont really flow over the beat, but practically talk at a steady spead. That is actually unrelated to Hip Hop Music. Them country folk call that there a "talkin' record".

I moved your comment from the top of the page, because newer comments generally go at the bottom. I'm not sure what you're referring to, as this article doesn't mention anything about that. If you're talking about the link to an article that doesn't yet exist in the box (country rap), I think that's referring to modern stuff like Cowboy Troy, not the "talkin' record". Tuf-Kat 01:17, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

I stand corrected -- the link was broken. There's an article at country-rap. Tuf-Kat 01:17, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

West Africa (moved from middle of page)

What is the basis of the claim that Hip Hop, which is as far as I can tell according to what the evidence shows, a strictly American art form, derives in part from West Africa or Jamaica? This seems like a retcon. Hip-Hop requires relatively modern, Western, inventions to produce. I mean, you can claim that anime derives from cave paintings, and in some sense you might be right, but is it meaningful?

FWIW, James Brown and Gil Scott-Heron's performances sound no more like Hip-Hop than Bob Dylan's did, to me. Also, there are several rapping and dancing traditions across history and cultures, from India to Australia. There's also square dancing... So why are some sources considered more valid influences than others in qualifying for "root" status when they share similar percentages of features to Hip-Hop? This seems like subjectivism in the extreme.

Like anything else disputable in Wikipedia, we determine what qualifies for inclusion using sources. Craig Werner's A Change Is Gonna Come traces hip hop to various things, including African music and the Last Poets, but doesn't mention square dancing or Bob Dylan (interestingly, he does mention "The Name Game" of all things and cites the whole section to Afrika Bambaata). This article should, perhaps, be more direct about citing sources, however. Tuf-Kat 19:46, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

To more directly respond to your question: there's no basis for supposing that anything that bears superficial similarities to hip hop is part of the roots of hip hop music. Russian chastushka and Scottish mouth music, for example, may have some similarities, but unless there is evidence that the people that invented hip hop had any knowledge or interest in those subjects, it's not relevant. The people that invented hip hop were part of a culture that derives from West Africa, and who used various techniques that can be traced back through the 20th century, all the way through slave times in some cases and back to the very limited documentation we have of West African music prior to European contact. It's not about the percentage of features shared between different styles, it's about what techniques were used by a group of people prior to hip hop and were then by the same people adapted for use in hip hop. Tuf-Kat 19:56, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Blah blah. At any rate, for those of you musical illiterates who are interested, the first "rap" number of any influence was Bob Dylan's 1965 "Subterranean Homesick Blues" from "Bringing it all home". Please, listen to the sample provided by Amazon or similar retailers. This is a high-profile performer, and his influence has likely been greater than West Africa in recent decades. The term "rap" was in wide usage early in the 20th century and referred to the "talking" portion of folk songs (or folk songs that were nothing but talking). Having said this, it's worth pointing out that the question of "Who invented rap?" is similar to, "Who invented low-cost stink bombs?" It can't really be a point of pride, whatever the facts are.

Haha, completely innacurate. If you define rap as the rhythmic delivery of rhymes over a beat, it was going on in africa centuries before mr. dylan. If you define rap as hip-hop rapping, then the first example would be in the toasts carried over by DJ Kool Herc to America, which merged with the disco rapping of DJ Hollywood. I urge you to read Rapping so you can get your knowledge straight. Peace, --Urthogie 21:14, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

From the rapping page: "Rapping, the rhythmic delivery of rhymes." Well, I guess we could conclude that Virgil and Ovid were among the first rappers. Actually: I think that a good definition of anything is going to take into account the real distinctions between it and similar things. Rap has a certain "sound" that is easily discernable, and it's a sound that (among recordings I have heard) first shows up in SHB by Dylan. (The Rolling Stone's Memo from Turner is another early one.) Now, you can say, "Oh, but only music that is derived from Africa counts." That's a bit ethnocentric, no? Of course, we see this in other fields as well: The Vikings (and others) beat Columbus to the New World. Edison didn't really invent the lightbulb, Gallileo didn't invent the telescope, etc. Yet the credit usually goes to the big promoters, the salesmen, of a thing. Those African-influenced performers turned rap into a large-scale force, but they WEREN'T the inventors or even the primary innovators.

Please cite a source if you want to make any changes to the article. Tuf-Kat 02:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Hey, anon, please sign your posts. Despite another attempt at deligitamizing this page, you're wrong yet again. Yes, the greeks were rapping, by the definition of rhythmic rhymes. That doesn't mean they were the roots of hip hop, just as the vikings weren't the root of the United States. I urge you to think out you're largely flawed arguments before you place them on the talk page. And by the way, the primary innovators of rap have been in hip-hop; the prosody and cadence of Greek "rappers" wasn't nearly as complex as Rakim's jazzed out, yet relaxed flow. The reason you think Dylan is the first modern rapper just shows that you need to go back and listen to some more music. Thanks,--Urthogie 08:30, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

for what it's worth, hip hop originates out of black america culture, which is closely tied to southern culture for the obvious reason that most black americans trace their roots through the south via slavery. the largest ethnic group in the american south, interestingly enough, is the Scots-Irish or Ulster Scots, and their culture had a very big influence on southern culture in America. the confederate flag, after all, was modeled on the scottish flag. scottish music is actually a big part of southern roots music and is still practiced and performed. my grandfather, who grew up as a sharecropper in the south, loved to sing old songs that incorporated mouth music - osngs that were sung by black and white folks alike. so actually it's entirely possible that scottish mouth music *was* an influence on early hip hop. not too surprising really, beat boxing is a much more sophisticated form of the same thing. HOWEVER, that claim doesn't go on wikipedia because, however logical and plausible it may be, i can't find a single solid academic source for it. why? well my personal theory is that most of the people investigating hip hop's roots have an obvious interest in emphasizing the african side of things. and why shouldn't they? more power to 'em. my point, however, is that hip hop is a syncretic culture and musical tradition that draws on roots from around the world, both within the african diaspora and without. this page asserts that early dj's relied on samples from funk and disco - which is true - but they also sampled the shit out of Kraftwerk, an early german techno group. As for Dylan, the song you mention is an example of what was called talking blues, a style which he did not originate but which comes out of the american south, primarily from black communities, and which bears obvious similarities to hip hop - as you rightly point out. hip hop didn't originate out of a vacuum people, it incorporated a wide range of influences. and hip hop is big enough for everyone, let's make room for each other. Anarchocelt 16:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Brittanica error

I have made a listing for "hip-hop" at Wikipedia:Errors in the Encyclopædia Britannica that have been corrected in Wikipedia#hip-hop because I feel Britannica's opening for that article is misleading or outright wrong. The issue revolves around the claim that hip hop is the backing music for rap, the musical style incorporating rhythmic and/or rhyming speech that became the movement's most lasting and influential art form. Tuf-Kat 20:31, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Images.

Er...where did all the album cover images go? --FuriousFreddy 00:48, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh...to history of hip hop music. Nevermind. --FuriousFreddy 00:52, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

hip-hop

whena rapper becomes famous, what role does he play in the hip-hop genre, in terms of generic values and representation?

American Rap

This article is perfect in it's description of American rap. But, we can clearly see that it's an American point of view. Rap has a big influence in France for exemple since the 80's, and this article don't mention french rap before the 90's. Of course rap is first an American music, but other countries like France, Germany, Algeria, etc... has adopted it and adapted it to their own culture. So his article is great, of course, I think we should translate it in French for the American rap, but you should talk more about foreign rap in this article. I can't do it myself because I'm french and I'm not good enough to write in English in an encyclopedia, but I hope somebody will complete it. Korr

Vandalism?

Quote: "making abundant use of techniques like assonance, alliteration,nigger loving and rhyme."

Is "nigger loving" supposed to be a technique of hip hop? 222.153.168.32 07:41, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

HAHAHA that is classic, i just read this.--Urthogie 04:12, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

"Can't Touch This" -- sample should be relabeled "Can't Play This" -- other samples play in vlc but this one comes up as an error. Did someone replace it with a bogus file?

why it should be moved

This should be moved to Hip-hop music and this page should be the redirect. Why? Because we've always referred to it as hip-hop.--Urthogie 16:10, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Is that a royal we? --Jamieli 16:03, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Aha, indeed, apparently hip-hop is mispelled in this entire article. According to spellcheck, and the hip-hop community itself(KRS-ONE's writing, Kool Moe Dee's Book for example) it is in fact spelled hip-hop with a hyphen. Also, check out dictionary.com: [1]

The only reason not to change it is laziness.--Urthogie 16:10, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Dictionary.com uses both, and plenty of others use it without the dash (see [2], Vibe, [3], [4], [5], [6], [7] and [8]. Plus, there's no logical reason to have a hyphen. Tuf-Kat 16:55, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

There are certainly sources both ways, but I think the best ones point towards using hip-hop: dictionary.com, AMG, and the books that Urthogie mentioned. In my mind, the reason for hyphenation is to make it clear that hip-hop is one term. It is easier to understand "hip-hop artist" than "hip hop artist," because it is clear in the first case that "hip" modifies "hop," and not "artist." I am assuming that "hip-hop" is an adjective-noun pairing of "hip" meaning cool and "hop" meaning dance. See hyphen for details. thejabberwock 05:24, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, i guess youre right that its okay to do it without a hyphen, thing is: is it required to have no hyphen? cus at Rapping we've been doing it with hyphens. --Urthogie 17:27, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I think it's best to standardize Wikipedia-wide, and I'd prefer no hyphen. I'd imagine it'd be impossible to get consensus on that, though. Tuf-Kat 17:36, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I think a consensus could be reached, or at least I don't see why not. Might as well try. thejabberwock 05:24, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

It's fine with or without the hyphen. Hyphenation is really a non-issue. --FuriousFreddy 17:49, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Consistency is an issue though. thejabberwock 05:24, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Wait up though, should it be consistent throughout a page's entirety? Even if pages vary over hyphen use, why make them vary within themselves?--Urthogie 19:57, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Definitely should be consistent within a page. thejabberwock 05:24, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Although I've always seen it primarily hyphenated, I don't really have a preference either way. --FuriousFreddy 05:56, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I think I've seen it primarily unhyphenated; however, since both spellings are fairly common, we aren't obligated to use either. And since there's no grammatical reason for a hyphen, we ought not use one. Tuf-Kat 06:04, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Is there a way to do a google search that checks for the hyphen? The rule is to use the more common one, after all.--Urthogie 09:46, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, no. "Because some people spell hyphenated words with a hyphen and others with a space, Google searches for variations on any hyphenated terms." [9] But the Open Directory Project, while returning no results for "hip hop" NOT "hip-hop" or "hip-hop" NOT "hip hop", gives 1165 pages for hip hop and 913 for hip-hop. And almost all of the wikipedia pages are listed under "hip hop." I still think "hip-hop" is clearer, but it would be a lot of work to change all those pages.

Tuf-Kat, I know we're not obligated to use either one, but wouldn't it be better to be consistent? I think we should change all instances of "hip-hop" in articles like Rapping to "hip hop." thejabberwock 16:27, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it would be better to be consistent. Tuf-Kat 16:44, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. We're not consistently using American spelling over english, even though American spelling is more common on the internet.--Urthogie 16:50, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

That's true. The only difference I can see between American vs. British and hyphen vs. no hyphen is that there would be no wounded citizens of a certain country complaining if the spelling of "hip hop" was made uniform. I think it would only be possible to do this if there were no strong objectors. Urthogie, I agree with you that hip-hop looks better, but don't you think that it's even more important to be consistent throughout the encyclopedia? Just because there's no standard for American vs. British doesn't mean that there can't be a standard for hip hop vs. hip-hop. thejabberwock 22:52, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm fine with it being whatever as long as its not too disruptive. A guideline, rather than a policy, that is.--Urthogie 22:54, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

So your position is that preexisting uses of "hip-hop" that are consistent within an article should not be changed? thejabberwock 22:58, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd say feel free to change anything, but if you move a page, please make sure to fix all redirects so they go directly. Yeah, just don't do anything that subtracts from functionality.--Urthogie 23:06, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Jabberwock, I told you I'd be ok with the change if no disruption was caused. But there are plenty of redlinks on this article still. Could you please create those redirects and make sure that stuff links to them?--Urthogie 13:28, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand. Are you talking about redlinks within this article (Hip hop music), or about other articles that have links to Hip-hop music? So far all I've done is remove the hypens within articles - I haven't moved any pages. thejabberwock 21:11, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

The article had redlinks to History of hip-hop upon my previous post. I'm just sayin you should move the articles if you're gonna link to those.--Urthogie 08:32, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

lets discuss whether or not hip-hop should have a hyphen or not some more, rather than actually contribute in some meaningful way. anon —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.230.4.4 (talk) 22:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC).

styilize it

Theres so many needless newlines throughout. Someone should get rid of them. I eventually will but dont have time now.--Urthogie 15:25, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

first paragraph

first, DJ Kool Herc didn't invent hip hop; second, Hip Hop natural center is the streets so it is more of an underground genre than of a pop music subgenre... despite these days.... If a hip hop act doesn't have street credibility, no matter if it is fully air supported it won't last too much... C trillos

Multiple sources say that DJ Kool Herc invented it. Second off, it is a genre in both senses, whether you like the mainstream or not. Did you know DJ Hollywood did disco in high class clubs, and helped invent hip-hop? In summation, please don't make POV edits that confuse the first paragraph. If you want to make it better, let's discuss what it's missing, first.--Urthogie 17:19, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Multiple sources can be wrong. DJ Kool Herc was the most notorious of jamaican immigrants that began to make an impact first in the block parties in the bronx and then in a major scale. To say Herc invented Hip Hop is just as much as saying the Hip Hop was born in him, and that's NOT the situation, as the ancient roots of the music, the Bronx society itself helped as well, and Herc was not the only Jamaican DJ from the dub music that was present in the late 60's in New York... there were others as well... the same goes from breakdancing... you cannot identify who invented it... it was just special social and cultural circumstances.... To say it in some way, you can identify the inventor of the "Scratching" technique but you cannot identify the inventor of Hip Hop music, nor brakdancing nor graffitti art... it was just a development process... Still, you can identify some pioneers, and Herc was one of them.... C trillos.

Scratching was invented by guys like grandmaster caz and flash AFTER herc. Herc invented hip-hop by isolating the "break" from funk songs, plain and simple. Isolating the break is what characterizes hip-hop as music. Herc did not invent hip hop culture. He invented the music. I'm not downplaying the effect of society and music at the time he invented it, I'm just stating that he invented the music, which is backed up by numerous sources. If you have an example of a DJ who played hip-hop before him, you can prove me wrong. Until then, your edits are just a POV.--Urthogie 18:37, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

mmmhh, what I have a difficulty with is with the word "invented" ... an invention cames from your imagination and usually after having spent too much time trying to figure out something (a concept, a theory...)... perhaps the article could say something like : "thanks to the work of pioneers like Herc, who first isolated the break from funk songs, the hip hop grew up from the 70's..." or something like that... and furthermore, the hip hop was not yet complete in its forms during Herc time, it was after Herc that it began to take form with the introduction of rapping.... What do you think? C trillos#

I think the problem here is you're thinking of the hip hop culture, which herc didnt invent. the music, he did though:

1. hip-hop music was the isolation of the break. it grew from that isolation of the break. noone thought it up before him, from what I've read(prove otherwise if you can, and I'll change it).
2. herc didn't invent hip hop rapping. dj hollywood did, according to kurtis blow.

There were definitely many pioneers, but he did invent hip-hop music.--Urthogie 22:44, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Urthogie, first it is not like I have to prove something to you so you can accept a change in the article, this is not Your article, it is Our (wikipedians) article ... Still, I appreciate the time you are taking to discuss!... From Wikipedia, an Invention is first originated by an idea, which means you gotta conceived it in your mind first. When you improve something that's innovation. When you isolate the break from the funk it is discovering or even an adaptation or innovation... so at the light of those definitions Herc didn't invent Hip Hop music... as Dr. Dre didn't invent G-funk cuz he only adapted previous stylez... invention means from scratch... C trillos

Huh? Thomas edison adopted previous styles, such as earlier research. he used those "previous styles" in his invention, just as dre invented g funk and herc invented hip-hop. this isnt my article, that why were discussing. im being objective, so prove me wrong and ill see it!--Urthogie 22:33, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

what makes hip-hop music fresh (question from anon)

Please ask questions at the Reference Desk--Urthogie 00:23, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Article needs rollback

This version of this article is better and more informative than the current revsion. As a featured article, this needs to be exemplary of Wikipedia's best work? Are there any objections to rolling this article back to this revision (and then doing some tinkering to that version, such as the additions of more pictures, some formatting ,and fact-checking?) --FuriousFreddy 03:46, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Here's the diff], BTW, and I think I agree (especially the lead). Tuf-Kat 04:02, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. The history section in that version overlaps too much with History of hip hop music(we created a seperate article for a reason). I do agree however that other elements of that diff are better.--Urthogie 12:57, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

It's a summarization of the history section; it is nbot nearly as in depth. As such, I don't see a problem; anything particularly superfluous can be shortened. --FuriousFreddy 00:50, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Well it was shortened. I would support a rollback if you kept the current history section and rolled back the rest of the article.--Urthogie 09:46, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Pantera?

" the first bands to combine metal with rap vocal techniques are said to be Anthrax and Pantera " - This is from the article... since when did Pantera associate themselves with rap music? The only song that comes to mind that seems like it could be rapping is "Primal Concrete Sledge" and that's not even close. Pantera were in many ways all anti-trend: this stance intentionally stood in direct contrast to bands like Limp Bizkit and other rap-metal acts who are commonly dismissed as "trendy" by most Pantera fans. I also question why KoRn are considered rap-metal (apart from their collaborations with some rap artists and the cover of Ice Cube's "Wicked"), as their vocalist's "scatting" technique is really as close as it gets to actual rapping.

"We've survived every fucking trend. Heavy metal, grunge metal, funk metal, rap metal - and we're still here. We put everyone on notice that we don't fuck around. Our fans know we're true right down to the fucking core." - Phil Anselmo --> seems to cause problems with the claim that Pantera is remotely related to hip hop.

I think you're right about that. I've never seen anything about Pantera being rapcore. Feel free to remove that.--Urthogie 07:59, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Although KoRn isn't a rap metal band, the rhythm of their songs is strongly hip hop-influenced, as their bassist sometimes demonstrates.

I tink Pantera's "rapping" on songs like Primal Concrete Sledge, Walk, Mouth For War, and I'm Broken, the songs that appear to have rapping, is actually more Hardcore Punk styled singing, and the "rapping" on another song that seems to have rapping, Slaughtered, is actually a Death Grunt, and I think is there only Death Metal song, so I doubt that there is any rap in Pantera. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ddude87 (talk • contribs) 2006-06-03

Music Samples

Needed:

• Missy Elliot from Supa Dupa Fly
• Digable Planets: Blowout Comb
• Deltron 3030

Music examples

A comment on the samples. I've searched through the archives, but I can't find a discussion on which songs should be used as samples in this article. The samples should really be "encyclopedic", they should show the songs that marked hiphop history, show also the evolution of the genre, the different styles of hiphop, examples of the instruments used... I don't think these ones have these criteria. Maybe Grandmaster Flash & the Furious Five's "The Message", The first major hip hop message song, is good; but the Busta Rhymes and the Jay-Z samples are not notable enough in hip hop history. I would like a discussion on which tracks we should feature, so these samples really offers information and knowledge. CG 21:06, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

It should feature an old school track like the message, an afrocentric golden age track, and a modern song, at the very least. I agree most of them shouldn't be there.--Urthogie 21:24, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong with the Jay-Z and Busta samples...both are very large figures in hip hop history, like it or not. Jay-Z certainly, considering the enormous influence he's - unfortunately - had on hip hop in the 21st century. Busta is more arguable; though he's very well-known and very unique I'm not sure he's a major part of hip hop history, considering he doesn't really sound like anyone else and spawned few if any imitators. Anyway, all of them seem to be worthy but if I were to remove one I would probably remove one of the Wu-Tang solo tracks: both of them is a bit unnecessary considering they're in virtually identical style. I would change the Mos Def sample to something from the Black Star album, to cover that whole Kweli/Mos Def/Slum Village/Roots afrocentric late-90s Starbucks-hop movement. And I don't think the Outkast track is particularly great choice (love the song, just not particularly representative); needs something that really shows their wild 21st century experimentation, like Slum Beautiful or GhettoMusick. --Jamieli 22:39, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

GhettoMusick? That track was completely a copy off of other trends in electronic and hip-hop music. Although, I must admit it sounds very good when youre high :). Anyways, I say we should go with the KISS principle and go with one song to represent for each era. --Urthogie 22:53, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Whether it's a "copy off other trends" (whatever that even means) is completely and utterly irrelevant. If anything, it makes it even more worthy of inclusion. --Jamieli 10:03, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't see what it represents as far as the modern hip-hop era currently; Outkast was influential with southernplayalistik and aquemini, et al. but speakerboxx really wasn't significant musically(although it sold millions and millions).--Urthogie 12:39, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

GhettoMusick showcases a) electronic/"techno" influence on hip hop in the late 1990s-present, b) Outkast being very wacky, c) Outkast being a duo consisting of two very different people, d) their strong P-Funk influence, e) a group who both sold a colossal amount of records and were critically acclaimed, despite not really sounding like anything else on the mainstream hip hop market (or mainstream music market) at the time. Speakerboxxx/The Love Below and Stankonia have been two of the biggest hip hop albums of the 21st century, like it or not. Some stuff from Aquemini or before would be welcome also however, there's enough variation. --Jamieli 12:54, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Earlier Outkast work wins in all of those categories except sales. As far as someone to represent the great sales of hip-hop, I'd say that 50 cent would be a better sample.--Urthogie 13:10, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

50 Cent should get a sample too, but he doesn't sound anything like Outkast. If you can think of another Outkast track which is more representative (of them) then go ahead. I'm by no means attached to GhettoMusick, it was just a suggestion as it has a lot of stuff going on. --Jamieli 13:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

We shouldn't choose the samples based on their popularity (or at least it shouldn't be the main criteria) but on their contribution to hip hop history evolution (that's why I opposed to the Jay-Z and Busta samples). These samples should really bring additional information and play the role of examples (much like images) for a better understanding of the article. Maybe the better solution is to choose a track for each era and for each important genre. As for the number of samples, 15 is a max. We may finally go through a voting process to choose the samples in the article. CG 17:52, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Jay Z is a pretty big influence on a lot of new MC's though...--Urthogie 18:08, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

So why Jay-Z isn't mentioned in the article? CG 18:21, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

The article really isn't featured quality. Its simultaneously bloated and lacking info. That's why I nominated it for removal from FA.--Urthogie 18:46, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I think that we need a lot more diversity here -- the majority of the samples we have are from New York-based artists from 1993-1999. Certainly this was a productive scene, but it's way overrepresented right now. My vision for this section is ultimately four groups of samples, each containing 8-10 samples, and covering 1979-1986 (the development of hip hop), 1986-1993 (the golden age), 1993-1999 (hip hop becomes mainstream) and 1999-present (the diversification/explosion of hip hop). That would hopefully allow us to represent a few more artists and styles, without totally overwhelming the visitor. Comments? ByeByeBaby 06:08, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

32 to 40 samples would be overwhelming to me... I think a better idea would be to split off the sample into the subgenre it represents, e.g., add a Run-D.M.C. sample to The golden age of hip hop. Then the most representative samples from each subgenre would be included in this, the main article. TheJabberwock 02:21, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Why is there only 1 sample from the west coast and why is it MC Hammer? I would like to see Dre, Snoop, Ice Cube, 2Pac represented here if you are going to talk about the golden age of hip hop.

Wow this article is bloated

This article is very seriously tl;dr. A lot of it is restatement of prior content and most of it doesn't even have proper grammar. "[blank] arose" happens at least 4 times in what I've read and edited of the article, that's lazy writing. This really isn't featured article material, there needs to be more editing done. Also, chart numbers need to be cited. Reduce this article by about 40% and it'll be readable.--Mod 13:25, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, bloated. I wouldn't oppose nominating it to be removed temporarily from featured article status for cleanup.--Urthogie 13:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

It's nearly 6000 words. There needs to be a reduction to at least 3500 words. --Mod 13:33, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, and it overlaps with history of hip hop music way too much. I've nominated it for featured article removal(see template at top of page).--Urthogie 13:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Hip Hop isn't A. Rap or B. Around anymore

Hip Hop is dead. these "subgenre" are simply what replaced it. Calling a new "Gangsta Rap" musican Hip Hop is as bizarre as calling a contemporary composer classical.--chompy 12:53, 2 March 2006

Hip hop culture is focused almost completely on rap now, thats all.--Urthogie 13:47, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

No, hip-hop isn't dead. Calling hip-hop dead is like calling jazz music or classical music dead. Both these genres have been around for years, have suffered through all kinds of motions, have seen some fairly incredible stars, and have arrived in modern day sleek, stylish, and ever-changing. The only people who decry jazz or classical as dead are those ignorant of any developments that they might like. There's plenty of ridiculously boring jazz and classical music out there, there's plenty of pap that goes nowhere, from every era. However there's a lot of stuff that's well-done, emotional, and technically astounding. When everybody said disco died, house music promptly took its place. Hip-hop has seen a lot of changes the past 30 years and at every stage of it there have been the old generation naysayers and the disillusioned "ex-fans" who had vague and arbitrary reasons lined up for the death of their formerly favorite genre. It's still going strong and it's still making people money. You're wrong. --Mod 03:48, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

No he's right. Nas said hip hop is dead. So it must be true.

Political Emancipation

In light of censorship, the wiki page Political_emancipation could use some attention. Currently it is only a stub. Particularly the explanation of the term 'political emancipation' entailing 'equal status of individual citizens in relation to the state, equality before the law, regardless of religion, property, or other “private” characteristics of individual persons' is construed to be an 'opinion' and 'not delivering a neutral point of view.' Does anyone have more information on the word 'emancipation' also being used in the political context of establishing (or any step moving towards) equality in light of the law? Inserting the Voting Rights Act as such a step of political emancipation, for instance, was repeatedly erased.

The question one could pose, is: When there have been only 3 African-American Senators in modern times (out of more than the 1500 Senators in total), would you say that political emancipation has been achieved? FredrickS 18:44, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Reasons for not promoting to good article

This article has some really promising elements. Some parts of the article are really well-written and very informative. However it is a long article that sometimes seems to stray from the essential elements of its subject or bog the reader down with names.

There are two things that I believe could really improve this article:

1. Remove the fashion paragraph in the "Social impact" section - it can be better covered by hip hop fashion and, if necessary, hip hop culture.
2. Trim the "Diversification" section possibly moving some content to a subpage and integrating the revised content with another section - right now it is very dense on names and difficult to read.

If you do want to have long lists of names in the article, consider shifting them to a sidebox like in the Columbine High School massacre article.

Please feel free to renominate this article when these issues are addressed.

Cedars 08:46, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I would argue that this article, due primarily to the section titled "Social impact," should in no way be regarded as a nominee for "good article." The said section evinces an extremely prejudicial view of hip hop music, superficially passing judgment upon it rather than bothering to consider precisely why it has the characteristics that it does.

To begin with, "degenerate attitudes" is a blatantly impartial phrasing. Although many elements of hip hop music - when taken literally rather than metaphorically, which is frequently the aim, anyway - fail to mesh with mainstream American cultural norms, the use of this language - even with the qualification that it is "sometimes" used - violates this article's neutrality.

While I for one appreciate the attempt to avoid stereotyping hip-hop fans, I believe the last two sentences of the first paragraph of this section best represent my objection to this article. Hip-hop music, many argue (convincingly), emerged FROM a context characterized by "anti-social behavior such as peer harassment, neglect towards education, rejection of authority, and petty crimes such as vandalism," and did not trigger it. These problems - symptomatic of virtually any community marginalized in socio-economic and racial terms - probably begat hip-hop, not vice versa. While hip-hop music may, on occasion, glorify these behaviors, 1) such glorification should be regarded contextually (as a means of protest), and 2) the self-awareness frequently accompanying such "glorification" must be considered. Anyone who has listened, for instance, to the Notorious B. I. G.'s "Ready To Die" should know that its nihilism and cynicism is accompanied by self-loathing, dissatisfaction, and world-weariness; after all, the album ends with the emotionally raw "Suicidal Thoughts." The statement being made by many, though hardly all, hip-hop artists is far more sophisticated than the author of this section considered: it is the cry of a marginalized population, desperate for escape (articulated with materialistic and sexual imagery), and consumed by self-loathing. And - in many cases - there is great hope: the hope offered by creativity and poetry. The hope offered by hip-hop music itself, in other words.

May 14, 2006

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.36.41.221 (talk • contribs)

History section

I just cut out about 1500 words from the history section: diff.I tried to avoid mentioning individual artists, unless they were extremely important, leaving that to history of hip hop music. I moved the diversification section to world hip hop, and moved relevant info to breakdancing and conscious hip hop. If anyone feels I deleted some crucial information, please comment here. Hopefully we can get this back up to featured (or at least good) article status. TheJabberwock 02:30, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

<Scottish-American rapper Eminem's The Marshall Mathers LP sold over nine million copies and won a Grammy Award.>

Scottish-American? Is that true? Is it significant? The Eminem article itself never mentions his Scottish ancestry, and he doesn't rap about Robert Burns or of eating haggis, after all. Is this just a PC way of saying he's not African-American and avoiding some phrase like "white rapper"? Bog 11:26, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

It is true. The Eminem article used to say he was Scottish; now it doesn't, but he is in Category:Scottish-Americans. I wouldn't be opposed to "white rapper", but "Caucasian" is apparently an Americanism with other meanings. Λυδαcιτγ 18:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

It's a problem isn't it? What does the encyclopedia need to say about Eminem, and how best to say it? It seems to me that the relevant facts are:

1) He is important commercially.

2) He is important artistically - influences other artists (I'm assuming this is true..?)

3) He is a white American, in a genre invented by, and almost completely dominated by African-Americans. (The only other famous white rapper is ... Vanilla Ice?)

No problem for items 1 and 2. Number 3 is tricky. The only reference to race in the Eminem article (except indirectly in photographs) is in the sentence, "He became famous in the hip-hop underground because of his distinctive, cartoonish style and the fact that he was white in a predominantly black genre." Rephrasing the passage along these lines might be an improvement; using "Scottish-American" seems coy. Bog 15:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that "Scottish-American" is a backhanded way of saying White; I inserted White because if he is in fact Scottish-American, I'm sure there are people of Scottish descent who would want to know that and there must have been a reason why someone put it in. If he's going to be described ethnically, however, in a hip-hop context, the fact that he's White is the significant point. --Saurav 10:07, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

1 -i know a lot of scottish americans who are not white. scots and irish americans actually have some of the highest rates of inter-racial marriage of any "white" ethnic group. 2- being scottish entails far more then eating haggis or reciting robert burns, and for those interested in the history of hip hop the influence of scottish traditional music on american music has been truly huge. you can't have hip hop with all of the forms of music that preceded it. 3- so while scottish american does not work as a substitute for white it is interesting in and of itself, not least because there's a current movement to incorporate traditional celtic music into hip hop, discussed under the "celtic hip hop" heading on the celtic fusion page. 4 - other famous white people in hip hop include the beatie boys, house of pain & everlast, David Mays - one of the co-founders of The Source, third base, sage francis, El-P, Rjd2, emcee lynx, and many others, particularly if you take a look at the underground scene in the us and the international scene. eminem is hardly the first, in fact he's hardly even notable in that respect. 5- he is notable because he sold a lot of records, because he created controversy for being a homophobe, and because he's capable of creating absurdly complex multisylabic rhyme schemes. Anarchocelt 20:28, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

rap v hip hop

Not all hip hop is rap music as the first sentence seems to state. Rapping is a component of a lot of hip hop but it does not necessarily have to be there. Consider a song like "Metaphysical" by Handsome Boy Modeling School-- definitely hip hop, but not a single line of rap on the whole track. That is just one example. There is a lot of hip hop that contains no rapping whatsoever and the first sentence is very misleading. LearningKnight 00:10, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't see what's misleading about it. It says that hip hop music is often called rap or rap music, which it is. The first sentence does not mention rapping. Tuf-Kat 01:14, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

"Hip hop music (also referred to as rap or rap music) is a style of popular music." - That suggests that they are completely interchangeable terms. It's my understanding that all rap is hip-hop but not all hip-hop is rap. Does that sound right? Because it's not too clear in parts of this page and on the hip-hop disambiguation page. — Flooq ^(Talk) @ 03:18, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Different people use the words differently, but they are sometimes used interchangeably. Some people believe that "all rap is hip-hop but not all hip-hop is rap", others might disagree and still others don't know or care about any differences, or use "rap" exclusively. Tuf-Kat 11:08, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

If any KRS One fans are here, the differenc between rap and hip hop are prominent. As he stated, "rap is something you do (i.e. a career). Hip hop is something you live (i.e. something done for joy or love of its nature, along with being a culture)." Rapping, also referred to as MCing, is no more a part of hip hop culture than is B Boying (breakdancing), DJing, and graffiti, the most accepted pillars of hip hop. Albeit hip hop and rap are distinguished and this should be demonstrated throughout the page.Arabic Pilot 03:03, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

vandalism guard

Why this page has not protection?

MoonGod 18:15, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Because it doesn't meet any of the rules laid out in the Wikipedia:Protection policy. Tuf-Kat 23:33, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that this article now qualifies for protection on the grounds of persistent vandalism, so I've decided to see what happens if I semi-protect it. I'm not at all sure that I was right to take this action unilaterally, but I haven't found a policy or guideline advising against it. Tim Ivorson 17 May 2006

I agree with your decision. TheJabberwʘck 18:13, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

except now you're protecting vandalism from being corrected. grrrr. Anarchocelt 20:30, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Watch list

Guys, how I can add to my watchlist all articles from the "List of rappers" by one click? ;) --MoonGod 15:36, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Category:Dead rappers nominated for deletion

I have nominated Category:Dead rappers for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion. szyslak (t, c, e) 06:29, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Thats an asshole move. ---burgz. 05:02, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Rap Metal Photo

Is there anyway that a picture of a Rap Metal album could be added on this page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ddude87 (talk • contribs) 2006-06-03

Maybe Image:Attack Of The Killer B's.jpg could be added to History of hip hop music. Λυδαcιτγ^{(TheJabberwock)} 03:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The best

Hello, my congrats for this article. It's one the best in this topic, and is surely better than all the articles related to House music, Techno, Trance, Electronic dance music and their subgenres related ones.Brian W 19:16, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Term Usage

The term hip hop isn't synonymous with rap. Hip hop is a subculture within rap. Check out this site: http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761563537/Rap.html

First, you misinterpret that site. It says "Although the term rap is often used interchangeably with hip-hop, the latter term encompasses the subculture that rap music is simply one part of." -- i.e. rap is a subculture within hip hop, which is essentially what Wikipedia says too. It also notes that hip hop and rap are sometimes used interchangeably, which they are. Tuf-Kat 03:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Origin

Can somebody please show me how (e.g. cite a source) asians and latinos initiated the hip hop cultural movement. They didn't. I have done my own research for school. I have looked on other wikipedia articles. It is not the case. Hip Hop has been influenced by many cultures but it was not started by asians and latinos. It was started by blacks. The placement of asian and latino alongside black for the creation of hip hop is clearly and intentionally meant to exclude whites. --Matt

First, please assume good faith. I don't see any signs of an attempt to exclude anyone.

That said, it would be helpful to clear this point up. Why don't you find a source that indicates that hip hop was initiated mainly by blacks? I can show you how to cite it, or you can take a look at WP:CITE. Thanks, Λυδαcιτγ 02:19, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Following comments by User:MLSmateo moved up here for clarity Λυδαcιτγ 07:01, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

"you will see that the music is made by people from different races or nationalities from all over the planet, but it's roots start with black people." --Afrika Bambaataa [10]

"So, rap music originally emerged as a way 'for [black] inner city youth to express their everyday life and struggles'"(Shaomari, 1995, 17). [11]

DJ Kool Herc, Afrika Bambaataa, Grandmaster Flash and all of these original DJs were black. They popularized the hip hop movement. --MLSmateo 05:40, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

All right, change made. Λυδαcιτγ 07:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Rock n roll in rythmic structure

I changed rock n roll in the rythmic structure section, to the more generic term "rock". My reasoning for this is that the term "rock n roll" usually refers to 50's era music, does indeed swing. maxcap 20:22, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Kraftwerk

"Trans-Europe Express" as first rap song? Influential as it was to early hip-hop, its impossible to assert that it's an actual rap track.

Because? Λυδαcιτγ 01:12, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

um, Audacity, with all due respect, I don't think that's a great answer. I, too, have the same reaction about TEE: the first hip-hop song? seriously? I don't buy it. At a minimum, I would like to see this claim supported, preferably by someone writing on the history of rap (as opposed, say, to a Kraftwek history). bikeable (talk) 03:02, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, that's fine; I've never heard the song, so I was asking for clarification. History of hip hop music says:

The first steps towards the commercialization of hip hop came in 1979 with the release of what are usually called the first two commercially issued hip hop recordings: "King Tim III (Personality Jock)" by the Fatback Band, and "Rapper's Delight" by The Sugarhill Gang."

Was "Trans-Europe Express" commercially issued? Λυδαcιτγ 04:27, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

It certainly was issued, and was a well-known album. However, I would consider it early synth/electronica rather than rap or hip hop at all. Samples are available on the iTunes store (and on Amazon, here, but I was unable to get them to play).

I think the section you quote is the typical description of the first rap songs. Googling around, I see mentions of Kraftwerk as an influence (and the song TEE was evidently a big club hit), as with this interview with Bambaataa; see also here. That's not the same as calling it the first rap tune, though! I'll check the library next time I'm there, but for the moment I am changing the reference to Kraftwerk in the article:

A club hit from 1977, with spoken vocals and strong, synthesized beats. This song strongly influenced the pioneers of hip hop, including Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, and Afrika Bambaataa.

How's that sound? bikeable (talk) 14:53, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Great. Λυδαcιτγ 02:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Violent Deaths of Popular Rap Stars?

The current article seems to be lacking proper coverage of the violence that often overlaps the hip-hop scene. The late Notorious B.I.G. and Tupac Shakur went at it in their music and both followed up with shooting deaths. From weapons charges, child porn, tax fraud and other criminal acts, many hip hop stars have a 'rap' sheet a mile long. 50 Cent is another example. Under the 'Social Impact' section I propose we add a sub-section regarding the lives of hip hop stars outside of their musical endeavours.Edit: Added signature.--Saintlink 15:50, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Child porn? I can't think of any rapper involved in child porn, but R&B singer R. Kelly was involved in underage porn, so I believe hip hop musicians are less involved than those of other genres. Regarding the main point, would such a discussion fit better in a more specific article, such as gangsta rap, or a less specific article, such as music or even the entertainment industry? Tim Ivorson 2006-07-07

The hip hop of the most prominent type is gangsta rap. Top 40 is consistently dominated by that particular sub-genre. While it may not be indicative of hip hop as a whole, to leave out the lifestyles of its most prominent members would result in an incomplete encyclopedic entry. Edit: Added signature.--Saintlink 10:58, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, don't believe the hype. What makes you think that hip hop stars are more prone to involvement in child porn than singers (or more prone to violent deaths for that matter)? Secondly, again, if your quarrel is with gangsta rap and pop music, why should this issue be here? Anyway, an article about hip hop rivalries exists. To the extent that it concerns hip hop culture in general, shouldn't a summary of that article be on the hip hop culture article, rather than here? Finally, this article is a work in progress. It doesn't claim to be perfect and you'd be welcome to improve it. Tim Ivorson 2006-07-09

Understood about the article being work in progress, no argument here. When in doubt I always try to place suggestion on the talk page instead of placing controversial items in the main body without proper discussion. Thank you for your input.--Saintlink 07:35, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

"nigger music"

I think perhaps "nigger music" is not an appropriate redirect to here... -Elmer Clark 11:22, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Wow, good catch. I put it on Wikipedia:Redirects_for_deletion. Thanks. bikeable (talk) 14:48, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

lol that made me laugh. I can just imagine some hick from the south typing that in. Wait, he wouldn't have a computer would he?

LAWL ZOMG UR FUNNY. Read this article, friend: stereotype.216.203.6.12 13:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Why aren't the mid 90s includes in the "golden age" of Rap?

1994-1996 saw such classic albums as:

• The Notorious B.I.G. - Ready to Die (1994)
• Nas - Illmatic (1994)
• OutKast - Southernplayalisticadillacmuzik (1994)
• Common - Resurrection (1994)
• Jeru the Damaja - The Sun Rises in the East (1994)
• Method Man - Tical (1994)
• Redman - Dare Iz A Darkside (1994)
• Gang Starr - Hard to Earn (1994)
• Mobb Deep - The Infamous (1995)
• Raekwon - Only Built 4 Cuban Linx... (1995)
• Onyx - All We Got Iz Us (1995)
• GZA - Liquid Swords (1995)
• Smif-N-Wessun - Dah Shinin' (1995)
• Das EFX - Hold It Down (1995)
• AZ - Doe or Die (1995)
• Ol' Dirty Bastard - Return to the 36 Chambers: The Dirty Version (1995)
• Bone Thugs - E. 1999 Eternal (1995)
• KRS-One - KRS-One (1995)
• Fat Joe - Jealous One's Envy (1995)
• Nas - It Was Written (1996) (Don't kid yourself, it's an underrated classic.)
• Jay-Z - Reasonable Doubt (1996)
• Lost Boyz - Legal Drug Money (1996)
• Redman - Muddy Waters (1996)
• Mobb Deep - Hell on Earth (1996)
• The Roots - Illadelph Halflife (1996)
• Xzibit - At the Speed of Life (1996)
• Chino XL - Here to Save You All (1996)
• Jeru the Damaja - Wrath of the Math (1996)
• Fugees - The Score (1996)

What, just because most of these albums are Hardcore/Mafioso/Gangsta means they're not the best? They dominate albums from any other era. Accept facts and move on with life... -Tainted Drifter

This is more relevant to Golden age hip hop; please comment there. Λυδαcιτγ 00:16, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, the term "Golden Age" refers more to time period (the period when something began). Just like Golden Age comics books are ones made in the early 20's century..Golden Age rap songs would pertain to the late 70's through the 80's.

--72.224.60.166 16:27, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I would disagree with this. The golden age didn't come up until the mid-80's and continued, essentially until the pre-eminence of the gangsta rap movement. Also, half of the albums above are actually important in the grand scheme of rap. Onyx wasn't nice enough to have one of their albums memorialized as the best. Additionally, Dead Serious from Das EFX was a way better album than the one you've listed. As well, you've overrated it is written. good? sure. best? no. The list is problematic on a lot of levels, but I can't get into that. The golden era was when hip-hop began to gain mainstream acceptance, which didn't happen until the mid-80's at the earliest and continued up until around the chronic which just blew the whole door off and made hip-hop an acceptable art form. That's why those albums are not considered classics along with the myriad arguments that can be made for or against each album.

Maybe it's because of the ways in which I was brought into listening to hip hop and my age (28 as of this writing), but I think it's absurd to say that Ready To Die and Illmatic "are not considered classics." Rather than making an argument for moving the date, however, I think this illustrates that the breakdown in the article is a little too rigid--Chronic might be the culmination of Dre's work, or it can be seen as the beginning of enormonus commercial success for Death Row in the mid 90s. --Saurav 10:14, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Give Peace a Chance

Wasn't Give Peace a Chance the first rap song ever? --Ian911299

I don't know - was it? Λυδαcιτγ 20:04, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Well I don't know. That's why I asked. --Ian911299

I mean, why did you think that? It doesn't look like rap from it's article, but I've never heard it. Λυδαcιτγ 23:25, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

There's more to rap than spoken lyrics. And "Give Peace a Chance" has much less of a claim than Subterranean Homesick Blues (1965) -- sound clip here -- but I wouldn't remotely call that rap, either. bikeable (talk) 00:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Categories

I've removed the article from Category:Music genres and Category:Musical movements and made sure that Category:Hip hop, which contains this article, is in those categories. Tim Ivorson 2006-08-02

hip hop is more than a music genre. This article is however.

"Criticism"

This entire section Hip_hop_music#Criticism is just awful. It consists of no actual criticism; just a set of accusations of who hates whom. This sort of fourth-grade nonsense is wildly inappropriate for wikipedia. Valid and sourced criticisms of hip-hip would be reasonable here, but I propose to remove the entire paragraph unless someone has a better plan. thanks. bikeable (talk) 18:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

If anyone's think about adding such a section, consider that no comparable genre I've found has an equivalent here, and when you think about that, it makes sense: criticism is generally better directed at specific artists than a genre as a whole; it would be kind of like having a criticism section on the article about a certain nation or religion rather than one of its members. — Lenoxus 23:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Problem Sentence

The second sentence quoted below either needs a citation or should be removed altogether. I move for the latter.

"In the 1990s, a prolonged confrontation between the West Coast gangsta rappers and the resurging East Coast began. It would lead to the death of both Tupac Shakur and The Notorious B.I.G., in 1996 and 1997 respectively."

Is there really any evidence that a prolonged confrontation beween "the" West Coast gangsta rappers and "the" resurging East Coast lead to the deaths of Tupac Shakur and the Notorious B.I.G.? Both murders are still under investigation. No one has been charged in either case. The police have not named any suspects.

Given that the police do not know who killed these men, it seems unlikely that we could know that their deaths were somehow tied to the "prolonged confrontation" described in the sentence above.

Maybe the person who wrote these two sentences has some evidence that the police are unaware of but unless she/he can provide it, I say we delete the sentence.--Ryanlovesyou 23:16, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

It probably could be worded differently, the feud certainly peaked with their deaths. maxcap 20:05, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure that's right. My point was that since we have no idea who killed these men or why, we have no good reason to assume their deaths were connected with the feud. If we do not assume that there deaths were connected witht he feud, then we have no reason to think the feud peaked with their deaths --Ryanlovesyou 23:16, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Good point, on the other hand people associate(d) their deaths with the feud, wrongly or not. And there was a much hyped feud before their deaths, and afterwards...not so much (except in talking about whether or not the murders were related to the feud). maxcap 00:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Underestimate/overestimate

Britton ohl changed "One cannot underestimate the influence the genre has had over the numerous styles of electronic music" to "One cannot overestimate the influence the genre has had over the numerous styles of electronic music", (emphasis mine) but Omicronpersei8 reverted it. It seems to me that the more difficult it is to overestimate hip hop's influence, the bigger that influence must have been. I assume that the purpose of the sentence in question is to state that hip hop did heavily influence electronic music and so I agree with Britton ohl. Is Omicronpersei8 suggesting that hip hop had little influence over electronic music? If this causes confusion, perhaps we should reword the sentence to exclude underestimate and overestimate. Tim Ivorson 2006-08-08

Origins of the phrase 'hip-hop'

Does anyone have any information as to who first coined the term 'hip-hop' and when? Was the name created before or after other terms like 'rap'? I think the article would benefit from some research on this. MagicBez 18:06, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know who first used the name but Afrika bambaataa was the first to define the whole hip hop culture.

Europe

In case anybody wondered what changes 86.124.92.8 made other than adding line breaks, they are as follows. 86.124.92.8 added to the Romania passage

The group has its own production label called Casa, signing and releasing albums of well known rap artists like Mahsat, Grasu XXL, M&G and Villy.

and

(They also own the 20 CM Records hip-hop label, signing rap group Anonim and Spike - in 2006 Cheloo, the main Parazitii producer released an album entitled Fabricant de gunoi-The Trash Maker, which features a guest appeareance from the Killarmy, the Wu-Tang Killa Beez group). Also, R.A.C.L.A. (originally standing for White Rappers Legally Conceive Warnings) was the first rap group to release a Romanian hip-hop album, touching mainly "social" subjects, the group still exists today, releasing its 5th album in 2005 called "DEXteritate" (Dexterity). In 2005, another explosive rap group, Zale, launched its debut album, Chei Verbale(with the single "Depinde de noi"), wich received positive public reaction. Since then, the group has made its own production label, called Chill Brothers Records, signing the well known ragga-rap artist Pacha Man (Known for his succesfull collaboration with African Reggae artists such as Moweed and Buppy Brown and british hip-hop artist Black Bishop of the Mobstarz and C-Rhyme Family crews), and a couple of other artists like Subsemnatu (Member of the Explicit rap group), Mike Pow ( a very talented R&B artist) and some well-known producers. They released their second album called Chill Brothers in the autumn of 2006.

Tim Ivorson 2006-08-23

Rap is the same?

Is it just me or is all the rap now a days sound the same. Ive tryed to listen to it but Im like I hear this song way to much. ΤÊŞŤ

what you need to do is stop listening to the radio and go get some underground stuff. apparently whats hot now on the radio is stuff from the south and it all sounds the same except for outkast.

Featuring

Maybe I'm showing my ignorance of the genre, but it seems to me that the phenomenon of singles by "so and so feat. so and so with some guy" has increased exponentially in mainstream hip hop in the past five years or so. Does anyone have any insight into this? maxcap 18:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Simply put, names means as much as, if not more than, your creative product. Paralleluniverse 23:12, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Help with Vandalism?

FTHHI has removed the entire History section, replacing it with "hip hop is gay....." I removed the comment, but didn't notice that the whole section had been removed until after I had done this. And I lack the knowledge of how to revert changes... Could someone with know-how please fix this? Thanks. :) --TheSlyFox 11:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Never mind, I figured it out. It's been reverted. :) --TheSlyFox 11:32, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

first paragraph: "Latinos"

I've removed "Latinos" again from the sentence, ...hip hop, a cultural movement that was initiated by inner-city youth, mostly African Americans[1] in New York City, in the early 1970s. The reference given is barely relevant, but mentions only African Americans. If someone can provide a citation for Latino influence, we can of course add it back, but the phrase "mostly African Americans" seems highly appropriate to me. bikeable (talk) 17:16, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I have readded the Latino's mention, along with a source from the Smithsonian. --RapPhenom 21:20, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

HipHop:Asia

I removed the following from 'World Hip Hop - Asia' section because it was largely unclear. Anyone with knowledge of hip hop in SL could translate/update? Fauxvegan 10:30, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

In Sri Lanka, the Hip Hop Cultutre rules the island. From The Capito Colombo (C-Town) to the the Hill Capitol Kandy (Hill City). Where in C-Town Hip Hop Culture is Ruled By Iraj N' Da ILL NOIZE Kru. ILL NOIZE Kru consists of Krishan, B.K. Yawanan... And Up In Da Hillz in da Heart of the Island, Hill City Hip Hop over Powered By dBnets,Redrum. dBnets Made Up of 4 members Sandun, Mithila, Hasika N' Heshan A.K.A. Sw!Tch BLadE or Switch Blade. Where up in Kandy the ethnic sri lankan music is combind with all sorts of Hip hop cultures, East, West, Mid West, Dirty South, Crunk... yes iraj and the crew is the pionners of the hip hop in sri lanka bur the new rapper chinthy who is doing a greate job alone is the one and only professional sinhala rapper.hip hop is quite strange to sri lanka because of beaing an island.further one important thing remains that the sri lankan identity has not been showed by any one yet.

Music of South Florida AfD

Since I'm not an expert on the Rap music scene, I don't know if it's worth saving or not, but the Music of South Florida article is being nominated for deletion. Any input from experts in the rap scene would be welcome to improve the article and to provide an opinion at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Music_of_South_Florida#.5B.5BMusic_of_South_Florida.5D.5D
Thanks! Dreadlocke ☥ 17:16, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

TUPAC

Tupac was a true legend. He will forever be one of the realist and truest MCs ever. I still love his 2pacalypse Now CD! Tupac was a "real" musician because he talked about poverty, and racism. He wasn't like these other loser rappers today talking about cars and clothes, he was an epic rapper. When Tupac said Thug life, he meant it as a meaning to improve the impoverished community and have people rise up against their own problems in life. Basically, he meant it as a positive thing. But the Media, and all those nutheads like Bob Dole and Dan Quayle, kept making Tupac to be negative. They kept trying to portray him as this evil person, wherelse he was exactly opposite. Tupac to me, represented the intelligence of the black race that the society tries to hinder and destroy. He represented the unheard of voices and the consciousness rarely seen in a lot of rappers. That's why the media and the society kept bothering him, because they knew that he was telling the truth. As Tupac said in the "Rebel of the Underground": "The world's most dangerous weapon is the educated black man"! Apparently, he was right, and that is why they feared him. Sadly, the media and the press alike were not going to quick untill Pac no longer existed, but you know what, his legacy will last forever, and as much as the ignorant society may whine and act stupid, I will always remember him as a big brother-RIP Tupac FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!! Our society, I think has been destroyed by ignorance and stupidity, and we need to get out of it. Sadly, the rap artists who talk about life, poverty, and racism get criticised, wherelese the ones who only talk about cars and clothes are'nt. Do you know why? The society is not ready for the truth, and they can't handle the truth. While rappers talk about all the things their money can buy, they are not improving their community, they are just putting more money into the hands of their executive owner's pockets. I think we all need to rexamine the destruction of ignorance we are causing in our world and make a change!

Apology

Just wanted to apologise for my vandalism of this page. I didn't mean to delete it all, but still that's not an excuse, this isn't a forum so I shouldn't have posted my gripes about rap here.

Thanks and sorry again. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.1.145.30 (talk) 11:41, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

Err....ok Powelldinho 11:47, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Influence on youth

Excerpt from the section:

While the majority of listeners are able to distinguish entertainment from lessons in social conduct, an evident pseudo-gangsta sub-culture has risen amongst North American youth.

That seems to be in tune with 50 Cent's "the thug life portrayed in gangsta rap is nothing but entertainment" mindset. Reword? — Phantasy Phanatik | talk | contribs 11:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Product Placement section

the new section on "product placement" must be toned down signficantly. A brief mention of the issue is certainly in order, but the whole section reads as ridiculously POV. "Rappers worldwide have bowed down before large corporations as shills"? Can you provide evidence beyond the article that anyone is offended by the trend? I would suggest that cutting it to a non-POV description at about a third of the current length would be an adequate treatment. bikeable (talk) 16:07, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

== Hip hop began in The Bronx, a borough in New York City, when DJs began isolating the percussion break from funk and disco songs. ==o

wtf? hip hop instrumentals were a result of the acid house movement. --AlexOvShaolin 17:28, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

huh? hip-hop long predates acid house. bikeable (talk) 23:44, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

should have checked my facts, thanx for straightening that out. --AlexOvShaolin 03:33, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

"Language"

The language section is ridiculous... It serves a purpose, but could we please use more relevant slang than "yo" "phat" and "what's the dilly, yo"? And saying "Of special importance is the rule-based slang of Snoop Dogg and E-40 -izz to the middle of words" has no basis in fact. Of special importance to whom? Not even those two rappers use it that frequently anymore. And though the first recorded use of it may have been Frankie Smith's "Double Dutch Bus," I was under the impression that it was a Bay Area (California) slang, thus derived from there (as both emcees are from California, E-40 the Bay specifically) not the Frankie Smith song. And to that point, it should be mentioned that most emcee's slang is strongly influenced (defined even) by the city which they're from and that many cities, the Bay Area in particular, take a lot of pride in their slang. Also, that through popular Hip Hop recordings, certain slang expands from regional or city-exclusive to becoming used nationwide by the Hip Hop: "Diss" is mentioned in the article, but other examples could be mentioned, ones that expanded from their city but not necessarily to the non-Hip Hop public (e.g. Ballin, Stunt, Gwop, etc.).

Also, different subject, but I find it odd that there's no mention of the word "Nigga" in either the Hip Hop Music or the Rapping wikipedia article. Considering the controversy over the word's use and its prevalence in Rap music since the 1990s, it's at the very least worth a mention. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.129.132.177 (talk) 07:06, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

nigga isn't a word invented for rap its been around forever.

Hip-Hop: Art or Crap?

hi, i was just watching CNN's specal: hip-hop: art or poison? and i got the idea to post this if anyony has anything to say please fell free to speak!--Lolicon(Anti Child Porn)Saikano 17:52, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a discussion forum. Talk pages are for talking about the article, not the subject matter. Friday (talk) 18:11, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

This article is a joke

The beginning of this article is great talking about the history of rap coming from the streets of New York, but that's about where it ends. No mention of Chuck D or Ice-T? How can you possibly have an article about rap and not even mention Chuck D? Someone try to explain why this article should even exist without Chuck D please. Not to mention that Ice-T was the first gangster rapper. I am at a loss. And it was a featured article???Jsderwin 20:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Sample for 'U Can't Touch This'

The sample for the song says this: MC Hammer's "U Can't Touch This" (file info) — play in browser (beta) From the 1990 pop-rap album Please Hammer Don't Hurt 'Em, which sold 10 million copies, and, despite poor response from critics, is still the top-selling rap album of all time.

its not the best selling rap album of all time, though at one point it might have been. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.18.17.22 (talk • contribs)

You're right. I reworded it. The RIAA best-sellers list is here, and I see that Speakerboxxx (11.0 million) and Crazysexycool (11.0 million) have both outsold Please Hammer Don't Hurt 'Em (10.0 million). bikeable (talk) 02:05, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Grammatical Error

"In 1979, the first commercially issued hip hop recordings were released: "Rapper's Delight" by The Sugarhill Gang which became a Top 40 hit on the U.S. Billboard pop singles chart."

Recordings is plural, yet only one song is listed. Not sure if this means that there are only one or two other examples to mention or if Rapper's Delight is one of dozens of songs. 6 March 2007

psz change this

Albania Albania and Kosovo have been a revolution in the hip-hop industry in Europe. Rap bands like The Bloody Alboz, Etno Engjujt, WNC, 2Po2, Double G Army, Tingulli 3, DMC, Rudi and others have striven to portray the real Albanian attitude of today. Albanian rappers like Rebel aka UniKKatiL, Lyrical Son and Milot have become successful in part because their high sound quality and excellent performance standards are considered the equal of anything available from American or other sources.

1) for those less informed .. albania is a country .. and kosovo is a province of serbia (http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Kosovo) so it would be great if someone with access to the material could remove kosovo from the list

2) the stuff and the bands pointed out for the sebia is not correct.. but i would prefer if someone would point out to me the number of posts or other things that i need to correct it myself later on... thanks —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aupicku (talk • contribs) 15:13, 7 March 2007 (UTC).

---

"Monster Mash" from 1962(?) should get credit as the first rap record, at least before the others.

Please fix this (semi-protected)

The 'Hip hop music' article has been blanked and replaced by some advertising for a musical group, and I can't fix it because I am not registered. Please revert it to the version before the one by Snakeguitars. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.118.0.28 (talk) 02:08, 18 March 2007 (UTC).

Arabic Hip Hop

Da fehlt der Link zu Arabic hip hop bei "Middle East" !

"lifestyle" part of the "social impact" section

this "lifestyle" blurb only tells half the story. rap has always involved a mix of BOTH anti-establishment, anti-bourgeoisie, politically-indignant rap (2pac, public enemy, dead prez, immortal technique), and pro-bourgeoisie, establishment-endorsing, excess-celebrating rap (any "club rap" or "bling rap" as mentioned on this page). therefore, with regards to social class, rap has taken both sides. this page only shows one side (the "bling") in the "social impact" section and therefore implies that rap has only presented this side of the story. this is not the case, and the political fire coming from rappers like 2pac and public enemy has always irked the establishment a lot. any ideas on how to work this into the page?

Music theory?

I noticed there wasn't much in the article about music theory in hip hop like there is in other music articles. Maybe it would be good to talk more about it. (Musicophilia 20:24, 6 April 2007 (UTC))

Is it not true that over 70% of hip hop consumers in the U.S.A. are white, mostly suburban, people? I read a statistic that gaveFclass 16:59, 6 May 2007 (UTC) the information.

not 70%, but they are probably the biggest group. I don't know though, the mexican population is getting pretty big.

hiphop and rap music ARE NOT the same thing

its like saying punk rock and alternative rock is the same thing. wtf.