Talk:Henry Carey (writer)

Untitled

Are you people imagining things? I really can't tell the basis of the clean up, and I'd be happy, as the primary author of the article, to clean it up myself, if I knew in some clear sense what it is that appears to be untidy about it. Apologies for biting when I should be thanking, but I really don't understand the critique -- which would be a good reason for me to step out of the way, if there had been an effort to address the problem on the talk page first. Geogre 14:08, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps - I'm guessing here - they want some sectioning? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 17:53, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

That's fine, if that's what's desired. Anyone can section it. I suppose the headings would be "musical career and early politics," "theatrical career and political satire" and then the last paragraph in "literary significance" section. It wasn't sectioned already because no one facet of his career could be separated, by me anyway, from another. He was a working stiff who was always writing songs, always writing plays, always writing poems, always expressing his political views, and he didn't have a single success as much as a few years of successes, and I don't have enough information to go into depth with the Savile bastardry pro- and con-. Still, I'll section in a bit. Maybe that will do it. Geogre 20:54, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Henry Carey (writer) - Moved from cleanup taskforce page

The Henry Carey (writer) needs to be properly formatted. It looks to be properly referenced and I think the only thing wrong with it is that it looks like one big block of text. Rejnal 04:42, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Please define. It is at a very high academic level now, and that means paragraphs that are more than 2 sentences long. If your screen resolution is low, it may appear to be in a blob, but at high resolution it looks quite properly formatted to me. Further, I'm not at all sure that it is a "clean up taskforce" crisis, when what you're really looking for is a note dropped on the talk page of an active article being watched by its sole author. Geogre 14:11, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Added to User:Kcordina/Desk RJFJR 00:31, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, with the help of three other sets of eyes, I gather that the issue was that subsections were desired. Personally, I didn't think the article was long enough or the life clearcut enough for such a thing, but sections have now been made. Please communicate on the talk page. Otherwise, with no more input in another 24 hours, I will suppose the objections are satisfied. Very odd project proceedings, I must say. (Inactive pages being added to projects are great. Active pages, though, always have communication on the talk page without tags.) Geogre 03:27, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I've had a look through and started tweaking things. The introduction was, I felt, a little long, so I have moved some of the content to an 'early life' section. I think the early musical and literary work section needs changing around a bit to get it into chronological order - it's very hard to follow at the moment. It starts off with saying something about his later-life, then jumps back to 1710. Geogre can you try and re-order the section so its follow his life through more clearly? Kcordina 09:23, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the cleanup tags, moved the still valid comments to this page and pruned out-of-date discussion that is no longer needed. Geogre, I think the above question of mine still stands, I'll carry on proof reading the article to see if there are any more questions raised to the novice in the subject. Kcordina 09:38, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I've stetted the old comments. Deleting entries on talk pages is seldom a good idea. Archive them if you don't want them easliy visible here. -- ALoan (Talk) 14:01, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

To answer the question, the later life comment was in the context of the general misinformation available from 18th c. sources (the Gentleman's Mag. obit has been used as a basis by way too many people). I put that information there to establish that what we can know from the G. M. source is X (bastard son) but that we can't be sure because it also says Y (annuity). In particular, the GM liked to say that people got annuities when they didn't (see John Cleland). It was a popular thing at the end of the 18th c. to assume that everyone of worth from the mid-century got one. That said, the general point is valid. It is difficult to discuss him as a musician and then as a playwright and as a poet, as he was all three at the same time, but I don't feel that it's particularly anachronistic in its discussion. Instead, it is organized by milestone (getting a job; losing a job; Namby Pamby; first plays), with discussion that may telescope or recall at each point (Namby Pamby wakes up Pope to him, alerts Fielding to him, is in keeping with setting Psalm, explains that Pope satirized the productions without disliking the workers), but the keystones are each sequential. At least that was my plan in composition, and this subject is a very difficult one to even do that with satisfactorily. Geogre 16:09, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I should mention that I do have an objection to the resectioning. The reason that the initial paragraph was long was that I was trying to create a full lead for eventual FAC consideration, or for potential FAC consideration. Therefore, the lead was to be a contextual overview that would then lead into the analysis. However, I had birth and early years stuff to dispense with. Generally, that information should be there but isn't anything worthy of the body, so, admittedly inelegantly, it was in the lead to simply get it somewhere out of the way of his professional life. Geogre 16:12, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Righto, I see what you mean about the introduction. Perhaps if we work on the rest of the article, then revisit and expand the introduction from the information that sits in the fina version. I understand your comments about the difficulty of a chronological method, and revisiting I think you are right, it works better as is. I am struggling with the first part of the Early musical and literary work section. I think it needs more explanation around the 'therefore'. I don't quite understand why the statement in the first sentance leads to the statement in the second sentance. Kcordina 16:35, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

The "therefore" was perhaps misplaced (optional placement, really), but the sense is this:

"Laetitia Pilkington says that he was working for Worsdale. She says this in 34. In 34, Carey was having successes under his own name. So, if he was willing to sell his works to be published by someone else under his name in 34, when his name was worth something, it is logical that Carey had been a hack writer for a very long time. Thus, even though anonymous works are anonymous, so we can't prove it, logic suggests that, before we have anything "by" Henry Carey, there were works by Henry Carey in print."

Now, the reason that's important is that I was trying to answer the question of what he did before Namby Pamby. There are some things we know of (and those are mentioned next), but the first things we know of him, the very first things we know are as a musician. Was he a musician who later began to write? No, I say. He was probably a writer and musician all the time, but we can't be as sure as we'd like, so here's the evidence. Geogre 20:02, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Cleaning comments

I've been convinced by the quality of the edits from recent workers on the article that there are language knots I missed on my earlier drafts, so I'd like to stay out of the way while y'all work, but I will certainly answer questions about why things were the way they were, what we know, why it was structured in a certain way, etc. However, one of the cornerstones of writing is aesthetic distance. As I think Ezra Pound said, the poet does not know what he said. He only knows what he meant to say. Similarly, all writers know their own intent, but cannot always see their result, so, while the cleaning is underway, I'll help with comments, facts, explanations, and, if needed, further research (the Grove Encyclopedia, for example, will probably have an entry on him, and I'm planning to go look at it; I suspect its biography will repeat the same errors as the old DNB (the 1894 one), but it will have information on his musical career). Geogre 02:19, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I just found something truly exciting: Henry Carey's daughter, Anne, was the mother of "Edmund Carey, the remarkable theatrical child." Edmund was born out of wedlock. You know him better by his father's name, which he assumed professionally when older: Edmund Kean. The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians had a great deal of cool information, but I'll wait for y'all to finish with the tinkering before I go adding in new blocks of text. Geogre 16:43, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Well as for me, I've done my tinkering for now. I'd say have at it. Paul August ☎ 20:17, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Biography assessment rating comment

The article may be improved by following the WPBiogaphy 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. --KenWalker | Talk 16:01, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

• No, thank you. I already know that the article contains more information than any single source, web or print, on the figure. Nice, though, that an automated process can assure quality. I thought research was the method. Can we finally get rid of the pig-ignorant "cleanup" notice now, or must an excellent article endure that eternally because someone's marginal illiteracy prompted a spasm? Geogre 19:22, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

• Oh, and for anyone reading along and wondering why I, as a fairly experienced Wikipedian, cannot write above a "start" or "stub" class biography, it's because of infoboxes and "biodata." I think I'm writing articles, not illustrating them. I think "infobytes" are an absurdity that is an atrocity. No, a complex life cannot be reduced to four important facts. No, an index of arbitrarily chosen facts is not useful. No, not all persons deserving of biographies have been photographed or even painted. The other horror is that I have not requested a peer review. This according to the eleven easy steps. Now, you may be asking yourself "what is putting an article on Wikipedia (instead of your word processor) except inviting a peer review," but that is apparently not what is necessary for a lofty evaluation. No, there has to be a submission to a particular person. If you have no peers in terms of knowledge of the subject at Wikipedia, then that's just too bad: you're writing "start class" articles. Thus, I am happy to have this article rated as "start" and hope that none of the articles I write ever accidentally gets a higher evaluation, because I will remove any infobox inserted here, and I have already asked (personally, and without filling out any forms) peers to review the article. If people like stamps and tickets, then bad cess to them. Geogre 19:03, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I apologize that someone rated this article as Start, it is clearly B class. I also apologize for that idiotic 11 easy steps notice. Psychless 04:09, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

• Well, now that I've seen the assessment drive and seen inside it, I'm not worried, but this particular article was one of those hidden nuggets, so it was galling more than others. If someone puts a "photo needed" on a 6th century saint, I figure it's just a wiki. I thought this one read well and was obviously researched, and "11 steps" was a bit patronizing to an experienced Wikipedian (and I think a little misleading to a new one). De nada though. Geogre 12:18, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

This is the base article; merge here, except that there is nothing to merge

1. Henry Carey (musician) has no information that is not present in this article in a better form.
2. This article was the first one written, and therefore the "musician" authors should have investigated and seen that this was here.
3. This article encompasses the whole career and life of the author, rather than one part of his career and life.
4. Henry Carey is remembered today as a dramatist, a poet, a musician, and a political actor, so putting something like "musician" is a fork, and a bad one.
5. The only reason for "writer" is to stop the confusion with the more famous sports broadcaster (US) and politicians (UK) of the 20th century.

Therefore, there is absolutely no question about merging this to the "musician" article. Even suggesting it is frankly bizarre. I cannot support merging "musician" into this, because I've read it and do not see anything, from sources to information, that is new there. This article uses the Grove, the DNB, and introductions to plays. That article uses two versions of the Grove. So, no. I can't see any justification for the existence of "(musician)," but merging this to that is simply silly. Geogre (talk) 11:17, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Composer project review

Perhaps Geogre will view my review a little differently than he did the drive-by Biography project assessment. I've been reviewing articles about composers as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is Start-class, and it was so before one joker rated it FA, and another joker "lowered" the rating to B. There are a whole raft of unjustified factual gaps in this article. My comments (including a list of questions this article raises) are on the comments page; yours should go here, or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 22:58, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

This article never set out to be a summary of his composing. It does, however, include all that the Grove has on him. I suppose those poor sots over at Grove only rate "start." Too bad. They should know that they need footnotes to be true. What's that? Other reference works don't put up footnotes like an incontinent undergraduate? Well, they're just plain "unreliable," then, and probably full of "POV." They should know never to use contemporary biographies or advertisements from contemporary newspapers for fear of conducting OR. They should merely have footnotes, because footnotes are never fabricated. They make everything true. So, no, I don't care if the article, which is meant to be a biography of an author/composer/singer/playwright/political activist rates poorly among the Composeurs group. I do wish, though, that questions were asked here, instead of claiming priority for a Project over the poor articles. Seems like the Projectors please themselves and count it a victory. Geogre (talk) 01:42, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

If Grove can tell me that (1) Charles existed, and (2) he died, but NOT (3) when he was born (even roughly), and (4) what he died of, I'd give them a Start, because they told me half a story, without any indication why there is only half a story. If they don't give me a list of what it is he wrote, I'd give them a Start, because I thought their research was inadequate. It's just an opinion, you know. Feel free to ignore it if you don't like it.

On the other hand, if they told me (1) HOW they knew Charles existed, without knowing (3), and (2) HOW they knew that Charles died without knowing (4), I personally would feel like I'd actually learned something. Ditto if they could actually tell me things that I might be interested, like which theatrical works he wrote music for, and which he didn't. Right now I have no idea.

Are those enough questions? Magic♪piano 02:24, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Henry Carey (writer)/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

Press [show] to view →

==Composers Project Assessment of Henry Carey (writer): 2009-01-19== This is an assessment of article Henry Carey (writer) by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described? ok, but see summary ===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? no indication of early music writing; personal details scanty. Who is his wife? When did they meet? ===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? poor delineation of what works are written, music, or both; scanty personal details. When was his son born? What did he die of? ===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article. No listings of works of any sort. ===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)? Writing style and appreciation given; relatively modest musical discussion. ===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.) Some images; no sound clips. ===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references? Article has basic references; some citations. There are uncited quotations. ===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.) ok, although the lead could be improved. ===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review=== Article has factual gaps; should not be considered for GA ===Summary=== I've reviewed a number of articles about people who were primarily not composers; this one is certainly sui generis. I grant that the subject of this article is primarily not a composer; this gives latitude in some of the deficiencies I normally note. Furthermore, given the relative antiquity of the subject, I also give latitude for the fact that records about the subject may be lacking. In spite of this, I find that there are some arguably basic factual gaps in the article that are surprising: if these things are not known, it should be more clearly explained and cited that these things are not known. These facts are basic biographical facts, and have nothing to do with composing and music. As a result, I find this article only merits a Start rating. Here are a few random questions this article led me to ask: when and how did he meet his (turns out to be first) wife? what did she do? when was his son Charles born? what were the circumstance leading to being able to marry again? (death? divorce?) when and how did he meet his second wife? what did she do? when were their children born? what did Charles die of? I can't see any biography being B-class that mentions all of these characters, but does not also answer (or justify the lack of answer, given that the characters are all known) to these basic questions. I've got a similar list of questions about his composing: what was is first known work? which of the many things mentioned did he write music for (and which did he not)? can we have a list of his (documented and/or surviving) creative works? can we have description of his music that is as rich as the description of his writing? Then there are issues of legacy. Somebody like Swift has presumably been know throughout the English-speaking world over time. Is this true of Carey? Can we have more historical perspective? Article is Start-class. Magic♪piano 22:48, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 22:48, 19 January 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 17:39, 29 April 2016 (UTC)