Talk:Hennin

Comments

When I use google to search for "damsel hats", I generally references to this garment.

When I type in "damsel hat" as a search entiry into the Wikipedia, I don't get this page.

Also, this garment is a type of cornet, which seems to not be mentioned in anyway as entry on on the Wikipedia.

It's a young article and additions are welcome. If you'd like to add something about it being a type of cornet, you're welcome and encouraged to do so! I've added a redirect from Damsel hat which will fix that search issue after the next search-database regeneration. — Saxifrage ✎ 15:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Dates

I can't see any before the middle of C15 so far. The truncated ones seem to be early, like this: Image:Petrus Christus 004 detail.jpg Johnbod 18:21, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The way I see it (allowing for the usual difficulties in terms). You get the heart-shaped hennins from early in C15, then steeples & beehives (NGA Petrus Christi & London one currently gallery 1) from about mid-century. The truncated ones are a little later & for lower-status women to some extent. Also complicated ones with veils flying off to the sides - butterfly style. Does this make sense? Some of the terms "bourrelet", cornette, Liripipe are the same as for the chaperon. Incidently the NG catalogue describes the London Vd weydenesque woman as wearing a hat & cap but does not mention hennin. Johnbod 19:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

My references all conflict on what should called what, though Boucher thinks hennin originally refers to the horned headdress and not the steeple, but has been misinterpreted as the steeple since the late 15th century. Still digging. There seems to be regional distinction as well - the steeple never caught on in England (thus Bourcher). I have one reference that says "bourrelet" is the padded roll portion of the horned headdress and another that says "bourrelet" is a French word for "hennin". I would like to find a nice well-researched recent reference, possibly by an art historian, that reflects current terminology, but I have nothing like that for the 15th century in my collection. - PKM 07:03, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that as with chaperon, patten & most medieval naming for costumes, the original names overlapped & shifted & are uncertain & in the end you have to explain you are using the name for a certain range of things & stick with it. You may recall bourrelet (or rondelet) is the term for the chaperon's padded roll. With the early "heart-shaped" ones (like in the Pisan presentation & Isabella of Portugal at the 1400-1500 article), that is all there is apart from veils. The basic horned look is just hair & veils (& net & pins I suppose), isn't it? So I don't think these statements are as incompatible as it might seem - once you have a padded roll on top of your horns, you have a hennin. In the OED, there is no use of Hennin in English before a Victorian historical novel. As with the chaperon, a veil coming from the end of the steeple cone was a cornette. I'll look around my references, but for example the NG catalogue seems noticeably more cautious in naming women's headgear than mens. It's a pity the NGA 1410 lady has been interfered with. Johnbod 11:26, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I have costume references that refer to "clamshell-shaped pieces" over the ears. Most helpful. I am inclined to say that the horned headdress is a bourrelet on top of a crespine with a cornet(te) or veil overall.

In any case I suggest we expand this article to say "hennin" today refers to a variety of tall headdresses worn in the 15th century consisting of caps or crespines with or without padded rolls and usually with a draped or wired veil called a cornette, and then add earlier images and describe individual styles as "horned" "heart-shaped" or "steeple". - PKM 20:34, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

PS I think the black "brims" are actually separate hoods worn underneath the cone, but I can't find a source to support that. It makes sense as the precursor of the English gable hood of the next period (and the hood worn by Elizabeth of York looks very like the black "brim" on the Allegory of True Love). If you see any footnotable source for that, let me know. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PKM (talk • contribs) 20:37, 2 April 2007 (UTC).

I'm not sure whether the ones without a padded/steeple fabric component need be included (where one can tell what is what), but yes. Does that mean all 8 of the 1400-1500_in_fashion#Style_gallery_-_Northern_Europe_1400s-1440s pics have hennins? Or all but 3 & 4? I think you're right about the seperate hood & will see what I can find. I haven't seen any diagrams of the construction, even on the web. Johnbod 20:51, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Btw, another cropped picture of mother & young daughter in steeple Hennins is at Sir John Donne. I just looked at the big NG catalogue (Campbell), which as far as I can see only describes them as "head-dresses". The full pic is interesting - neither female saint is wearing one, despite St Catherine (left) being a princess. Instead they have very Italian-looking necklaces in the hair. I don't think there are any saints with steeples or heart-shaped hennins. St Catherine is described as wearing a "robe royale". They are English but on the Continent a lot; Campbell suggests Lady Donne was originally painted in her absence, then later turned into a portrait.

Campell on Mrs Arnolfini's horns: "hair which is dressed in horns surrounded by small plaits. The horns are caught in intricately woven red nets and covered in a white linen veil which has been folded backwards and forwards on itself five times". I originally thought all the horns were just hair (& net), then looking at the 1400-1500 gallery they seemed to be fabric covered & trimmed - now I'm just confused. NG 653 by Campin of the 1430s shows a woman with a similar but plainer head-dress, though she must have been wealthy to be painted. One thing is fairly clear I think - the middle class, whether gentry or merchant, only edged cautiously into the hennin from about the middle century, and even then had a transparent veil falling forwards over it under 1470 or so, like the "van der Weyden" in the NG & the one in the NGA Washington, both 1460's.

Johnbod 01:58, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Great work here, Johnbod. - PKM 04:26, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Similarity to the tantur

Anyone know of a connection between the two? Funkynusayri (talk) 14:45, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Interesting - I think there are similar older Persian? or arab styles which may have had a role in the origins of both, but the Western hennin emerged from an evolution of increasingly fancy styles of head-coverings, although it does represent a bit of a leap. Johnbod (talk) 16:14, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Cornet

I have messed about with your edits here; Norris is a rather dubious source, and not only did the friar, or his army of urchins, use "hennin", but he seems to be about the only source that did at the time. Pending seeing the very expensive book of Margaret Scott, knowledge in this area seems to have progressed little since 1819. Johnbod (talk) 04:37, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

My edit reported that friar Thomas Conecte had not employed the word, but gave the quote: but isn't he the source for the statement "recorded as being used in French in 1428"? OED gives among the uses of cornet (all connected with "horn", naturally): "A form of head-dress formerly worn by ladies." The connection made with lappet seems unlikely on the face of it.--Wetman (talk) 05:24, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes - did you see the bottom where I added the actual source in the Chronique of Enguerrand de Monstrelet, with links to the full text in English and French. "Cornet" is variously described, but see chaperon (headgear) where "cornette" is well-established as the usual French term for the liripipe or trailing tail. In female contexts the cornet, according to most sources, was a low cap that was under the "steeple" bit, and (less clearly) would extend out to make the lappet. The term remained in use into the 16th century (indeed 17th century America) for set-ups with no steeple, and seems to derive from "coronette". If it comes from "horn", it is the earlier types of hair-in-net horns going 2 ways, as in the Arnolfini portrait. See here for example. Some sources do use it for the "steeple" as well, but as usual in 15th century fashion they all contradict each other. I don't mind changing it, but I'm not sure I want to do so based on Norris. I'll copy this to the talk page, as it is may be relevant there. Johnbod (talk) 12:52, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

T'ang China

There is a suggestion that the hennin - along with the fashion for pointy shoes - came ultimately from T'ang China, taking centuries to work its way westwards. Anyone like to follow it up? Ammimajus (talk) 16:32, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

See 2 sections up. Johnbod (talk) 16:42, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Etymology

In Flemish, the family name Genin (pronounced Henin) was originally a toponym of about this period for someone from the Duchy of Hainault. Is it therefore possible the design came over with Philippa of Hainault, Edward III's wife, or her children, who had a close relationship with Flanders? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.29.210.34 (talk) 16:02, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Boqta (ku-ku)

I'm going to take out the speculation about the influence of the Mongolian boqta. It needs better referencing, preferably something peer-reviewed. The present source is only a blog. It's an interesting idea. We should expect some overlap between eastern Europe and western Asia. But in respect of the hennin the chronology and regional distribution both seem to be against it. The invocation of Marco Polo as the agent of transmission reads like a predictable pop history attribution, but it's more than a century out, and the bold assertion that Polo brought a boqta back reads like a fictional embellishment. I don't see anything like that in Polo's own text and we lack much detail about his return journey, including his inventory. We don't need to posit an exotic outside influence for the hennin's development anyway: it seems redundant, as medieval women had always worn headdresses, and the towering hennin was very much of a piece with other extravagances of fifteenth-century high fashion. Lachrie (talk) 23:56, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Hennin. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070404092438/http://cadieux.mediumaevum.com/burgundian-hennin.html to http://cadieux.mediumaevum.com/burgundian-hennin.html
• Added {{dead link}} tag to http://cleftlands.case.edu/hatskwcs1.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 02:14, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

English names for the headwear before the 19th century?

It reads:

"The word does not appear in English until the 19th century" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.91.155 (talk) 06:28, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Dutch roots of the word: Hennin

http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/John_Hennon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.91.155 (talk) 17:15, 5 December 2017 (UTC)