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RfC: Her name was not Hedwig no matter what we did 5 years ago

[edit]
Responding to the request for closure at ANRFC; this was not a well-formatted RfC, although it seems that for the most part the participating editors understood the issue to be the article name. There is a consensus that the article should remain at its current name. There wasn't much actual discussion or analysis of sources, although there were plenty of claims that the sources support one position or the other. The list of sources compiled the last time this issue was raised makes the claims for Hedwig stronger, in addition to there being a significant numerical advantage of editors favoring Hedwig. By contrast, the arguments in favor of renaming seem to largely rely on original research, e.g. the claim that "Hedvig" originated as a translation error. That said, of course this can be revisited if supporting sources are presented. While there can be merit in e.g. invoking IAR (via WP:COMMONSENSE in this case), editors must still come to consensus in favor of it. Sunrise (talk) 00:24, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This woman's name was Helvig, Helwig or Heilwig, not Hedvig/Hedwig. The first three are various established spellings of her name; the last 2 are spellings of another name. They (Helwig and Hedwig) are not the same name but are as different as Edward and Howard, as Lillian and Gillian, as Cindy and Mindy, as Amelia and Adelia, as Marilyn and Madelyn.

As can be seen above, consensus decided in 2009 to name the article incorrectly. This is a very sad and embarrassing example of one of those unfortunate and illogical quirks of Wikipedia, and it makes the encyclopædia less reliable, respectable and worthwhile for readers and contributors. If anyone has any ideas on how we can fix this, I would appreciate anything constructive. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 05:15, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome to open a move discussion, but at a very short glance the 2009 discussion focused on what reliable English-language sources most commonly call her, as it should. You'll need to provide evidence that the 2009 assessment of the prevalence of those spellings was incorrect. Note that one of your references only mentions Heilwig of Lippe, not Heilwig of Holstein. Huon (talk) 11:40, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You've missed my point, told me what I already know and provided no help. The point is that her name actually was Helwig not Hedwig and the question is what can be done about that in spite of consensus 5 years ago and for the sake of accurate and reliable information. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:58, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You're right, I miss your point. You know the appropriate process to change the page title (and consensus may change) as well as the requirements; what kind of help are you looking for? "Common sense", however, does not trump reliable English-language sources. Huon (talk) 12:16, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I concur. FactStraight (talk) 18:02, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Please respond to the fact that her name was Helwig, not Hedwig, or please do not respond (irrelevantly) at all! The rigid and non-constructive discussion about sources and consensus has already been had. Please don't rehash all that again! That's not what I'm looking for. I have the right to ask for help without having that request dissmissed arbitrality. And no, WP:Common sense goes before all other policy. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:58, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Also, if you support Wikipedia intentionally naming biographies with false names because of policy, this discussion is not for you. Please abstain from commenting! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:08, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You have not presented any new evidence that her most common name in English-language sources is indeed Helwig. It doesn't matter what her "true" name was as long as English-language sources largely refer to her as Hedwig. Your request amounts to "I need help renaming this page because I know better than reliable sources what the name should be". That will not happpen. Huon (talk) 22:27, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Reliable Swedish and German academic historians know better not I, and I trust them more than I do rigid WP policy sticklers which in this case have magnified a translating error and are speading it all over. Very very very bad! Anyone interested in fixing the problem can easily see my point, and a bit of checking will confirm it. Since you obviously are not interested in fixing this very embarrassing mess, which seems to be taboo to even talk sensibly about, why continue to comment and say the same things over and over and over and over and over and over and over? That's not going to shut me up, though I get the message that that's what you're after. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 07:38, 1 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I see no evidence that this is a translation error spread unknowingly. Rather, Philip Line is well aware that her name in Swedish is "Helvig" and still chooses to call her "Hedwig" in English. If you can present some evidence that the discrepancy is indeed due to a translation error, please go ahead. If you cannot, see WP:No original research. Huon (talk) 14:40, 1 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I see no evidence anywhere on Google that Philip Line is academic nor an established authority on the subject, nor anything about his being aware that her name always in Swedish and German is given as Helvig and that he used another similar name in spite. Where did you find that, if you please? And who is Philip Line? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:35, 1 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
PS It's worth noting that even in Finland, where she also was Queen, it is correctly noted that King Magnus was married to Holsteinin Helvigin not Holsteinin Hedvigin. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:01, 1 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
For his knowledge of how the queen is spelled in Swedish, see page 589 of his book: Hedwig of Holstein (Sw. Helvig). Google Books says about Line: "...completed his Ph.D. on Medieval Swedish Kingship at the University of Leeds in 2003, having previously studied Scandinavian languages in London" Not a particularly reliable source, but it's confirmed by his biography here (p. xii), and Brill Publishers definitely is a reliable publisher. I found multiple English-language works by Scandinavian authors on Google Scholar thanking Line for "checking the language", indicating that his colleagues accept his proficiency at translating Scandinavian languages into English. Huon (talk) 21:13, 1 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The English language often spells names differently than they are spelled in other languages. For example: in the Italian language, the capital city of Italy is spelled "Roma" ... and (thus) it is appropriate for the article in Italian version of Wikipedia to spell it "Roma". However, in the English language, the name of that city is spelled "Rome"... and thus it is appropriate that the English language version of Wikipedia spells it Rome. While "Roma" is correct in Italian, "Rome" is correct in English.
To apply this concept to the current article, we don't care how the name of the person might be spelled in Swedish or German (or Finish, or even Chinese)... what we care about is how the name is spelled in English. From the 2009 discussion, it seems that her name is spelled "Hedwig" in English. However, if you can find more English Language sources that spell it some other way, please present them and we can reconsider. Blueboar (talk) 20:07, 1 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As I've replied to you on the Pump, it's not at all question of translation and/or spelling but of two different names, as different as Edward (Edvard in Swedish and German) versus Howard (Howard in Swedish and German), or as Blueboar versus Bluebear, or as Huon versus Heon. (See all the other relevant examples I also gave please!) I asked that irrelevant arguments like yours not be rehashed. Spelling is irrelevant here. My name is correctly spelled Sergio in Spanish and Sergius in Latin (those are legitimate exonyms), but Serde or Serve or Serke in no language. If a Serke Woodzing exists anywhere, in any country, in any language, that is not me. Get it? Anyone??????? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 00:39, 2 December 2014 (UTC)--SergeWoodzing (talk) 00:34, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, I'm not sure what the process is, but a move discussion is probably warranted here. I'd need to do a little more research before making any real choice, but the discussion was more than 5 years ago. Thargor Orlando (talk) 00:51, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Helvig (or a German version of the same name) would seem to be the more correct name of this woman. "Helvig" is what the on-line edition of the Swedish dictionary of national biography calls her. I doubt that she is well enough known in English to really motivate a different name. --Hegvald (talk) 10:14, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: despite a previous run-in with Serge on another issue, I guess I agree with him in this case. This is not the question of a misspelled name, it's another name, though very similar. I could add a couple of Swedish examples which differ on only one letter: Lage and Tage, and Rune and Sune. If someone would write in English about a notable person named "Sune", and call him "Rune" just because he has never heard the name "Sune" before, it wouldn't be a misspelling, it would be the wrong name – and of course unacceptable. If this is the only source in English, I think we should trust other sources. They count too, if I'm not mistaken. HandsomeFella (talk) 22:19, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sources? Where are the sources for thinking that either one of these names is correct? I suggest that as a first step the first, say, 10–15 reliable sources that call her by each name should be listed here (access to the sources in the article would be handy). If there aren't enough to determine what name is predominant in reliable English sources then Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)#No established usage in English-language sources should probably apply (i.e., "German for German politicians"). I looked, briefly, for sources and found several that refer to a "Hedvig of Holstein" who was wife of Didrick the Happy of Oldenburg in the fifteenth century, clearly not this person. Life magazine (1957), Herman Lindqvist (1994), August Strindberg (1959) and the Scandinavian Review (1933) call her Helwig, while Vilhelm Moberg (1989) gives both names. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 00:09, 3 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Huon! Actually I saw that. Philip Line, Vilhelm Moberg, both mentioned above, and three sources that, from where I am at least, can't be looked at. Moberg, as I have just said, gives both names. Blueboar says quite correctly above that "While Roma is correct in Italian, Rome is correct in English". But what it appears that we are trying to do here is to substitute one consonant for another and call it "Rose" or "Dome", and that is never going to be correct. If (and I don't know if) a mistake was made at some time in the past, we should careful not to perpetuate it here. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 00:55, 3 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment on the consonant comment: during at least the preludes to WWI (after the assassination of Franz Ferdinand), the UK Foreign Office for unknown reasons called Serbia Servia, which illustrates the problem with substituting consonants. They later abandoned that. HandsomeFella (talk) 11:04, 4 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
When Line and apparently Moberg too are aware of the difference and don't consider "Hedwig" to be a mistake, I'm not going to second-guess them. If you can find a source explicitly saying that it is a mistake, I'll gladly change my mind. Huon (talk) 01:07, 3 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Here's the thing... if the majority of English language sources say someone's name is "John of Calais" - but the majority of French language sources say his name is "Louis de Calais"... Wikipedia's policy is to favor the English language sources. We would title the article John of Calais, and use "John" in most of the running text... However, we should not ignore what the French sources say... it is appropriate to make note of the French name as an alternative - listing it prominently in the opening sentence (as a parenthetical)... something like: "John of Calais (French sources call him Louis de Calais) was...." Doing this accurately presents what the sources say... while favoring the name that most English speakers (our audience) would recognize. Blueboar (talk) 02:49, 3 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No, not at all. Your comparison is irrelevant. Here's the thing: this woman (about whom this discussion is supposed to be) is virtually unknown in English literature. One single amateur historian in Finland has managed to get some English text published where he has given her the wrong name, a name that cannot be associated with her in any language. That Finnish student has possibly been influenced by Vilhelm Moberg (I haven't seen that source) who was a rambuctious self-educated (non-academic) political writer particularly well known for his strong opposition to monarchy and for not caring what he called whom. Thus, there are no reliable English sources, whereas not one reliable academic Swedish, German or Finnish source calls this queen Hedwig, all of them know her name was Helwig. There is no English reader recognizability involved whatsoever (yet!). Hedvig is a German and Swedish name, also used in English and then spelled Hedwig at times. That is not this woman's name, has never been never will be. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 01:28, 4 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have read all this stuff and it seems to me that there is a legitimate dispute as to what this individual's name was, in English. Even if the name in the title is incorrect (and I am not saying it is, because I have no idea), we aren't causing very much harm because there is a page named Helwig of Holstein. It is a redirect to this page, so anyone searching on Helwig will get to this article, which mentions the name Helwig in the first sentence. Now please note, this would not be "good enough" if it were clear that Helwig is the correct name... but there isn't. So it's good enough. Neutron (talk) 01:56, 4 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment It is clear though, so I don't know where your opinion on that came from. Not one reliable academic Swedish, German or Finnish source calls this queen Hedwig, all of them know her name was Helwig, and those are two different names, not spelling variations or translations. English sources are at a severe minimum, and not one of the ones that calls her Hedwig, among the very small amount that exists at all that call her anything, is reliable. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 07:47, 4 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the article should be moved to the correct name. Wikipedia should be a medium of knowledge and information, not of mistakes in naming, or that a majority of persons believe something. That she for some time,as an error, was refered to as Hedvig can be explained in the article, but is should not be used as consensus for the title of the article. Dan Koehl (talk) 17:02, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Summoned by the bot, from reading the discussion above it looks to me that discussion its warranted on the topic. I would argue that we should be cautious about changing the title if we only use the evidence at present. We need more otherwise I would argue this becomes original research. Fraulein451 (talk) 17:11, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Uhh, this is about Queen Helvig of Sweden, not about you. Just a friendly reminder. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 02:54, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Uhh, this is about following Wikipedia policy. Just a friendly reminder. CombatWombat42 (talk) 15:48, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! Not one such source in Swedish or German calls her Hedvig or Hedwig and I challenge anyone to show that even one such English source does. Citing something as banal as "Hedwig Ladulås" - faked surname and all! - just goes to show how far some of us are willing to grasp to perpetuate and spread a translation error on English Wikipedia, as if it were English Wikipedias's thing to prove such a fake fact as Hedvig being an English version of Helvig. Any educated person, or anyone who cares about educated literature, knows it isn't. Thank Goodness I'm not an old Swedish queen that some of the guys around here would like to name an article Serde Woodzing for. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:04, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Learn to use a search engine. Hedwig Ladulås did not have quotation marks. It is meant to find hits on the right Hedwig. Presense of the rare name Ladulås on the same page (obviously when referring to her husband) gives a high probability of that, for example the book Kingship and State Formation in Sweden: 1130 - 1290.[1] The German book Die schwedische Monarchie - Von den Vikingerherrschern zu den modernen Monarchen also calls her Hedwig.[2] PrimeHunter (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
So you found 2 more errors where she's called "Hedwig" - bravo! As compared to all the knowlegeable academic sources that know that that was not her name. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:10, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No need to congratulate me. It's trivial to find examples by clicking in my search. Here is the Royal Genealogy Database at the University of Hull: [3]. Here is an 1876 Dutch book so Hedwig certainly isn't a new English invention: Christina, koningin van Zweden, haar hof en haar tijd.[4] And as mentioned at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 117#When consensus screws thing up real bad, [5] is a Swedish folder with the same text in Swedish and English, where Swedish says Helvig and English (below the child photo) says Hedwig. PrimeHunter (talk) 17:36, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
While I appreciate any new sources on this topic, trying to convince SergeWoodzing on that basis is useless because any source that disagrees with his position can hardly be considered reliable. Huon (talk) 18:25, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I am so sorry, dear Huon, that I am not able to live up to your behavioral requirements, but to me it's simply impossible to consider any source "reliable" which calls her Hedwig or Hedvig, simply because that was not her name in German, Swedish, English or any other language, just like your name is not Heon or Huin. Perhaps my kind of common sense is intolerable to you, but I hope you can try somehow to find it in your heart to forgive me. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:48, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Your argument has no common-sense basis.

You: "No reliable sources say x, so it clearly is incorrect."
Others: "Here are numerous reliable sources that say x."
You: "But x clearly is incorrect, so this only proves that those sources aren't reliable."

Your reasoning is patently circular and amounts to nothing more than an uncorroborated declaration that anything contradicting your position is self-evidently wrong. And you've even gone so far as to demand that editors refrain from responding, except to acknowledge that "fact" and assist you in "fixing this very embarrassing mess". —David Levy 00:26, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I cannot consider any source "reliable" which calls Queen Helvig "Hedvig", because "Hedvig" is a translation error and "Hedvig" was not her name. I have a right to be unable to consider such sources reliable, because I know, even if you are not at all interested in that knowledge, that her name was Helvig, not Hedvig, just like your name is David not Dakid, Levy not Lavy. You may not respect my opinion, as I respect yours, but that is your option. I have not prohibited anyone from doing anything. I have asked that we dicuss the fact that Helvig and Hedvig are two different names, and what can be done about that problem. That request of mine has been throroughy crapped upon my most of you in a saddeningly disrespectful manner. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:45, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I cannot consider any source "reliable" which calls Queen Helvig "Hedvig", because "Hedvig" is a translation error and "Hedvig" was not her name.
I understand your position. Do you understand that Wikipedia's factual claims mustn't be based on its editors' original thoughts regarding what's true?
As you know, we turn to reliable sources for guidance. Apparently, on this particular subject, you want us to define "reliable sources" as "sources agreeing with SergeWoodzing". By your logic, it's literally impossible to cite a reliable source that contradicts your claim, given that any sources contradicting your claim are to be deemed unreliable. It's circular reasoning that defeats the purpose of consulting outside sources in the first place, effectively replacing our relevant policies with one to simply accept your beliefs as factually accurate.
I have a right to be unable to consider such sources reliable,
Indeed, you're entitled to your opinion. But if you expect deference, you're likely to be disappointed.
because I know, even if you are not at all interested in that knowledge, that her name was Helvig, not Hedvig,
"But I know the truth!"
just like your name is David not Dakid, Levy not Lavy.
Do reliable sources assert that my name is "Dakid Lavy"?
You may not respect my opinion,
To quote Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth again:
"That we have rules for the inclusion of material does not mean Wikipedians have no respect for truth and accuracy, just as a court's reliance on rules of evidence does not mean the court does not respect truth. Wikipedia values accuracy, but it requires verifiability."
I respect your opinion that "Hedwig" is incorrect. Do you respect Wikipedia's policy of not basing the encyclopedia's factual claims on its editors' opinions?
I have not prohibited anyone from doing anything.
I didn't use the word "prohibit". You simply demanded that we "please respond to the fact that her name was Helwig, not Hedwig, or please do not respond (irrelevantly) at all!". You also demanded that editors who "support Wikipedia intentionally naming biographies with false names because of policy" (a straw man) "please abstain from commenting!".
I have asked that we dicuss the fact that Helvig and Hedvig are two different names, and what can be done about that problem.
And anyone who disagrees that such a "problem" exists obviously is wrong and should go away.
That request of mine has been throroughy crapped upon my most of you in a saddeningly disrespectful manner.
You seem to regard disagreement with you as disrespect. If our feedback seems dismissive, I'll remind you that you've asked us to "abstain from commenting!". —David Levy 14:47, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
PS This article begins with "Hedwig of Holstein (Swedish: Helvig, German: Helwig) ..." meaning that "Hedwig" is English for "Helvig". That is (and will remain) unsourced, is completely inaccurate and as such effects Wikipedia's reputation. One would have imagined that more than 2-3 of you would be interested in correcting that inaccuracy, somehow, someday, somewhere. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:49, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Hedwig of Holstein (Swedish: Helvig, German: Helwig) ..." means the article is about a specific woman commonly called Hedwig in English, Helvig in Swedish and Helwig in German (multiple names have actually been used about her in all three languages). It doesn't imply that everybody called Helvig in Swedish should be called Hedwig in English. And the stated name "Hedwig of Holstein" is sourced. I know you automatically dismiss any source as unreliable if it doesn't agree with your belief about The Truth, but the source satisfies Wikipedia's normal requirements, and so do other sources we could have used but we don't place a bunch of sources on the same statement. of/av/von is also different in the languages. If you want to say "(Swedish: Helvig av Holstein, German: Helwig von Holstein)" to clarify that it is names for this specific Holstein woman then that would be OK by me. PrimeHunter (talk) 19:46, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have asked that we dicuss the fact that Helvig and Hedvig are two different names, and what can be done about that problem. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:50, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And if an editor disagrees that the article's current title is problematic, what should he/she do? —David Levy 19:10, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Tl;dr. One editor thinks he knows more about Hedwig and how to spell her name. He has been refuted by multiple sources, and has no other editors agreeing with him. He continues to beat a dead horse. What should we do about it? Ignore this editor as the consensus is obvious and move on to more productive things. CombatWombat42 (talk) 19:53, 10 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am indeed not at all alone. It's easy to breeze in and comment ignorantly without having read a discussion. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:11, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose renaming. This RFC is poorly composed, because it doesn't ask a question, but whether to rename the article has already been discussed and discussed. The OP has the right to provide a redirect for what he thinks is the correct form, but the primary name is that of English sources, even if the English sources are a great wrong that needs righting. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:45, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I came here to read the discussion about the issue and offer an opinion about the renaming question, but the behavior of the original poster has seriously discouraged me. The opponents are trying to discuss; SergeWoodzing is trying to fight. Oppose renaming, without prejudice to reconsideration if someone is willing to discuss sources and not call names. If there is a real discussion, feel free to call me back, but this is, at least from one side, just a brawl. --GRuban (talk) 16:18, 16 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm so sorry GRuban, sincerely, that you are that disappointed in me and find fault with me alone in this. I have to blame my fatigue and extreme frustration/impatience. Look at the length of the discussion 5 years ago! And look at all this here this time. All I'd like, and 4-5 others here who agree with me, is that this article be given the name that this queen actually definitely had, not a name that she absolutely did not have. And all I wanted discussed was anything constructive that might be able to be done to that end, primarily citing WP:Common sense, foolishly cited my me, I see now, since I've come to realise that though it's one of WP's most importiant rules, it is also virtually ignored by a vast majorty of ya'll. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:44, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Look, the English language has been known to do horrible things to names. Confucius, for example. Our article explains that his name was Kong Qiu, and Confucius is a corruption of gluing together his name Kong with his honorary title Fuzi. Despite that, Confucius is the title we use, because it's the common name; even though it's wrong. I was born in a city named Moskva, but the article for it is named Moscow, because the adjective form was Moskov, and because the English got it from the Germans who write "w" when they say "v", even though the English now read it as if it were pronounced "w". The Russian language doesn't even have a "w" sound! But it's the common name in English, and isn't going to change. Hedvig/Hedwig/Helvig, however, still has a chance, specifically because there aren't nearly as many sources writing about it as either of those, so maybe we can change it. I don't know. Maybe not, since after all, it's been a long time, and we don't actually have an audio tape of the lady saying her own name, do we? Cite your sources, the ones in English are important, but the ones in other languages that are commonly recognized as the definitive sources on this lady are also important ... but for the love of Jimbo, be nice. Please. Recognize that the people who don't agree with you are neither evil nor stupid nor anything else except other volunteer editors trying to make this the best encyclopedia they can. Then we can have a fair, polite discussion. Until then, it's not a discussion, it's just noise. --GRuban (talk) 22:04, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose renaming as the unfortunate truth is that the English version ("Hedwig") dominates sources found in searching websites in English, including book searches. The Swedish "Helvig" and its variants come in far lower on book results. Ought we rewrite all the books to conform with a "correct name"? We can't. Collect (talk) 00:08, 22 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hedwig and Helwig are two different names

[edit]

Most Swedish and German sources knowledgeably call this Swedish queen Helwig. Some English sources also do (she is not widely known in English at all), whereas a few English sources call her Hedwig, which I believe is a translation error or typo which has spread and which WP is helping to spread further. Can anything be done about that in regard to this article? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:17, 11 December 2014 (UTC) Sooo much bad feeling and personal stuff in all this - impossible to get past those who want to stop/hinder the discussion from doing anything constructive about the real problem, hopeless - I give up! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:15, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Of course something can be done. For example, a reliable source could be presented that the spelling "Hedwig", which is the more prevalent one in English, is in fact due to a translation error. In the absence of anything new compared to the RfC immediately above, which is still open, this one should be speedily closed. Huon (talk) 12:25, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The few of us who were interested in fixing this will have to wait until some academic English newspaper or book publishes something amounting to "that the spelling "Hedwig" is due to a translation error", to satisfy Huon & friends. (This of course if never going to happen because the subject isn't important enough for English academics to deal with at all, and never will be.) --SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:22, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy close RfC. No reason to create a second RfC about one letter. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:49, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
At this point, it's become difficult to assume good faith on SergeWoodzing's part. I want to believe that he simply isn't getting the point, but given his level of experience as a Wikipedia editor, the creation of a second RfC on exactly the same topic makes this seem more like outright trolling. —David Levy 13:14, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Trolling, disruption, incompetence, it is probably one of these 3 and none of them should allow for two RfC's on the same page about the same thing. This should be closed immediately. CombatWombat42 (talk) 16:11, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Name-calling, bullying, nastiness. Not for me. Bye bye! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:21, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If and when you decide to pursue a discussion on this matter in which agreement with you isn't a prerequisite, I'll see you then. In the meantime, bye! —David Levy 19:53, 11 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Why would anyone want to translate Helvig into Hedvig? Ignorant, rude and unnecessary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MightyLordEdit (talk • contribs) 08:12, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome to the English Wikipedia, MightyLordEdit! Thanks for using your mobile device to perform your first site edit (the above talk page post). I see that you previously used your mobile device to edit the Swedish Wikipedia's Birgit Ridderstedt article (edited by SergeWoodzing immediately before you) on the very same day that SergeWoodzing edited the Hans Ridderstedt article to add a photograph of him with his sister-in-law, Birgit Ridderstedt. Given your coincidental alignment in interests, perhaps SergeWoodzing can take you under his wing. —David Levy 09:09, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
??? Relevance? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 09:51, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm welcoming our new friend. Aren't you eager to show him/her the ropes? —David Levy 11:01, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I guess we now have to go through all of Levy's edit's and those of his cohorts in this discussion to see how many alignments of interest there are among them (is that what's called stalking?). Or else we could stick to the subject of this discussion. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 09:54, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I guess we now have to go through all of Levy's edit's and those of his cohorts in this discussion
Yes, editors who disagree with you are "cohorts".
to see how many alignments of interest there are among them
You're more than welcome to. If you happen to notice a user whose participation is limited to highly specific subject areas in which I'm active simultaneously and whose first English Wikipedia edit was to express agreement with me on an obscure talk page, please let me know. I'd love to offer my mentorship and invite him/her to join my band of cohorts.
(is that what's called stalking?)
The tool is called "global user contributions", but it's still in the beta stage, so there might still be time for you to suggest that it be renamed "stalking". —David Levy 11:01, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
On November 26th 2014, 35 people, including Graham Tainton, Gunvor Pontén, Mattias Klum's wife and mother (Ridderstedt's surviving sister) and one of Nils Bolander's granddaughters, attended a centenary celebration of the life of Birgit Ridderstedt at Stockholm's Lillienhoff Palace, as documented in an extensive album on Facebook. Apparently, a week later, one of those guests using an alias edited Swedish Wikipedia's article about her to add the names of her sons. The day before that, because there already were articles about 2 of his brothers in the Swedish clergy, a new article had been created by me on Swedish Wikipedia about Ms. Ridderstedt's brother-in-law Rev. Hans G. Ridderstedt to which I added a photo originating in the FamSAC archives, showing him officiating at another brother's funeral in one of Stockholm's major churches. How any of that ended up being mentioned on this page is beyond me. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:25, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder how you know that MightyLordEdit attended the celebration. Well, no matter. He/she somehow ended up here with us, so let's welcome him/her.
Hi, MightyLordEdit! I hope that you enjoy editing the English Wikipedia. If you ever decide to become active outside SergeWoodzing's areas of expertise, feel free to request advice on my talk page. —David Levy 11:01, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I am currently in Stockholm, several of my friends were there on Nov 26th, I checked today, and I know that at least 3 of the other guests contribute to WP from time to time, usually from IPs. The Swedish Birgit Ridderstedt article was discusssed at the event, and comments were made about her sons' names not being mentioned, though those of two brothers-in-law were.
Now, how is any of this going to benefit this article? You sarcasm, familiarity and ridicule are very effective in derailing the actual talk here, and I can only suppose that that's exactly what you want, and that you have friends who just love it. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:23, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I am currently in Stockholm, several of my friends were there on Nov 26th, I checked today, and I know that at least 3 of the other guests contribute to WP from time to time, usually from IPs. The Swedish Birgit Ridderstedt article was discusssed at the event, and comments were made about her sons' names not being mentioned, though those of two brothers-in-law were.
And then MightyLordEdit just happened to bump into you here. It's a small world!
Now, how is any of this going to benefit this article?
I'm sure that MightyLordEdit has a great deal to contribute on the subject.
You sarcasm, familiarity and ridicule are very effective in derailing the actual talk here,
I don't know what you mean, Serge. I've gone out of my way to welcome the kindred spirit whose account had never been used to edit the English Wikipedia until he/she stumbled upon this obscure talk page and expressed agreement with you. Welcome, MightyLordEdit!
and I can only suppose that that's exactly what you want,
Not at all. Though I was under the impression that you'd withdrawn from the discussion. Last I saw, you were seeking advice on where to complain about the "bullying" (i.e. blatant disregard for your instruction that only editors who agree with you participate in the RfC).
and that you have friends who just love it.
I have some friends who edit Wikipedia, but they probably haven't visited this page (and they certainly haven't edited it). —David Levy 17:25, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Lots of people check on what I'm doing on WP and are often amazed at the way some of us behave. My bumping into MLE is your own little destructive invention, par for the course in your extremely voluminous and successful, sarcastic and bullying stivings to poison this debate beyond repair with decimeters of irrelevant garbage. I hope someone else you've insulted and crapped on like this uses all that against you. I'm so sick of you that I'll do my damndest to steer clear. One more opponent you've crushed like a cockroach under your nasty little shoe - grattis! (Watch, folks: lots more greenies and meanies to come, I'm sure!). --SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:33, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Please refrain from interweaving your replies with mine, thereby orphaning portions of my messages from my signature and timestamps. (I just repaired such damage for the second time.) Thanks! —David Levy 11:18, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Dear MightyLordEdit: please don't. You don't need to learn to behave like Levy (see my comments just above) to contribute here. I've learned that, and 70% of the time I do quite well anyway, sticking to the sibject, trying to be nice (though it's hard at times) and making valuable contributions. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:23, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It's just a shame that those stubborn obstructionists have the audacity to disagree with you, even after you've explicitly told them not to. —David Levy 17:25, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
David, it seems like it might be time to just ignore SergeWoodzing/MightyLordEdit they are not here to improve the encyclopedia and are simply wasting our time. If they try to make a change that is not supported by consensus the standard policies of the encyclopedia will take effect. CombatWombat42 (talk) 19:18, 13 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think that it is quite clear that in Swedish, Hedwig and Helwig are two different names. However, in English, they are regarded as interchangeable, and Helwig is frequently transliterated as Hedwig. Bluap (talk) 00:10, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This attempted discussion has now been poisoned with irrelevant chatter and is beyond repair. In parting: "in Swedish, Hedwig and Helwig are two different names. However, in English, they are regarded as interchangeable,[according to whom?] and Helwig is frequently transliterated as Hedwig." is complete hogwash, just another POV invention to support nonsense. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:33, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Bye again, Serge! —David Levy 11:18, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Remember that english wikipedia is only a language variety in english, which is not the same as a being a wikipedia for english, northamerican australian people etc, nations that use english as mother language. If theres is a tradition in UK and USA to translate Helvig to Hedvig, this doent mean that this tradition is shared by all chinese, or alla Asians, Africans, and Southamerican people that use the english language and the en.wiki.x.io.

Instead of fighting and insulting other users and persons, I cant see why the article was not moved to the proper name, so the incorrect name, could have a redirect to Helvig, and there readers could read about this misunderstanding that her name was Hedvig, which it wasnt, and probably never will be. Then we enlighten people, and they learn something new, rather than when the ignorant, who want to repeat errors, teach new generation an error. From that point of view, I suggest that 1. changing the name to Helvig of Holstein, 2. redirect Hedwig of Holstein and 3. tell about the reason and background for this, on the proper name article. To end those discussions is easy, if prestige is not setting the conditions, but willing to cooperation. A mistake, or an error, doesnt become true, jsut becasue a people have repeated it for hundreds of years.And wikipedia, as a trustworthy encycklopedia, doesnt win anuthing when it continue to spread old errors, but it for sure gain in quality if past errors are explained and corrected. ? So, a little bit of mutual understanding and compromizing would make the article better. Dan Koehl (talk) 23:28, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You don't understand why editors who disagree that Hedwig of Holstein is "the incorrect name" oppose moving the article and inserting such a claim?
Please see Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Tendentious editing#Righting Great Wrongs. —David Levy 00:02, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The Finnish ethnologist/linguist/historian Kustaa Vilkuna would apparently disagree with the statement heading this section. Then again, that itself would make him unreliable, wouldn't it? Surtsicna (talk) 01:01, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Still wrong name

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It's time, as per WP:CCC, to have a look at this again. The grossly incorrect name of this article is an embarrassment to Wikipedia. SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:52, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

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As a preparation for a move dicussion, I collect here sources that mention her.

Encyclopedias in any language:

  • Helvig (in Swedish) - Svenskt biografiskt lexikon (1975-1977): Helvig
  • Helvig (in Swedish) - Nordisk familjebok (1909): Helvig
  • Helvig Holsteinilainen (in Finnish) - Kansallisbiografia (2000): Helvig Holsteinilainen
  • Helvig (in Swedish) - Biografiskt lexikon för Finland (2008): Magnus Ladulås
  • Helvig (in Swedish) - Nationalencyklopedin: Helvig
  • Heilwig (in German) - Neue Deutsche Biographie 6 (1964) Gerhard I.

English language books that mention her. These are all the books in English that I have found:

  • Fiction: [6][7]
  • Not many scientific articles written in English seem to exist:
    • Searching Google Scholar for "Hedwig Ladulas", the only results in English are the book chapters from Philip Line's book.
    • Searching Google Scholar for "Helvig Ladulas" returns a few articles in English: [8][9] and two Master's theses: [10][11].

From the list #Reliable English language sources in favour of Hedwig, I drop the third item, "Politics and Reformations", which actually discusses a different Hedvig of Holstein, the mother of Christian I of Denmark.

I'd also like to comment Philip Line as the source of English names, as he was given a large weight in the above discussions: In the introduction of his book he tells that [f]or personal names from regions that used the Latin alphabet I have adopted the modern spelling from the person’s country of origin. Although queen of Sweden, the name of the wife of King Valdemar Birgersson therefore appears as Sofie Eriksdatter. So when he writes "Hedwig of Holstein (Sw. Helvig)", he only claims that Hedwig and Helvig are the Danish and Swedish variants of her name, respectively. There is no assessment of conventional English usage. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 04:55, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some primary sources about her: Some Holsteinian(?) annal, and medieval letters at Riksarkivet. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 16:44, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 5 May 2024

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) ToadetteEdit! 15:22, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hedwig of Holstein → Helvig of Holstein – Helvig is more common in English language as indicated by sources collected above in #Sources. However, the number of sources is so small that WP:USENATIVE might be applicable; this would also favor Helvig. The suggested name would also disambiguate this person from another Hedvig of Holstein, the mother of Christian I, who AFAIK is never referred to as 'Helvig' (See sources at Talk:Hedvig of Holstein). Jähmefyysikko (talk) 05:05, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note that I've also added a referenced section Hedwig of Holstein#Name in the article. Jähmefyysikko (talk) 05:09, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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