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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus on destination of article. JPG-GR (talk) 16:40, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

The Great Hunger → ? — Most opinions I've read agree that current name is unsuitable (I had literally never heard current title till now). At the very least a proper survey is needed. For the sake of easy counting (and making actual progres) an official move request has been made. The options I propose are (add as necessary):

  1. The Great Famine
  2. The Irish Potato Famine
  3. The Great Hunger (current title) —EstoyAquí(t • c • e) 02:09, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
  4. Great Famine
  5. Irish Potato Famine
  6. Great Hunger
  7. Great Irish Famine
  8. Great Famine (Ireland) jnestorius(talk) 22:41, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
  9. Great Irish Famine (1845 - 1852) BastunBaStun not BaTsun 06:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
  • Option 2. Name with which I'm most familiar. Have commonly heard option 1, but I feel it is too vague a title. As said above, had never heard current title until this point. The translation of the Irish name is ambiguous, but irrelevant - the title does not need to be either of the possible translations unless it is the most common English name (per WP:NC). - EstoyAquí(t • c • e) 02:11, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Just to say that there were several famines in Irish history caused by potato blight, not just one and that logically it was the people who starved not the potatoes. The potatoes were afficted with blight which caused starvation. I think we should keep the present title as indicating that this was the Great Hunger as opposed to the lesser known famines of Irish history. Colin4C (talk) 09:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Maybe so but to me that immediately fails the policy of "use most common name" (WP:NC) since I had never heard that before. - EstoyAquí(t • c • e) 12:41, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Cecil Woodham-Smith wrote an acclaimed book on the famine entitled The Great Hunger, 1845-49 (Penguin). The one I have never heard of is the 'Irish potato famine', which is not surprising as it is illogical. Colin4C (talk) 20:41, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Cecil Woodham-Smith's is the most popular book ever written on the subject, and still out sells all of the others combined. It is also the most cited of all the books written. --Domer48 (talk) 21:24, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Then save the title for an article on the book, which we should have. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:34, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Order of preference, favorite first: #8, #7, #5. The rest are unacceptable. (Note: I've added options #4-#8 as part of this edit.)
    • Options #1, #2, #3 are all excluded under WP:THE. I've aded #4, #5, and #6 as "the"-less alternatives, though personally I don't like any of them.
    • Option #4 is currently a DAB, and #1 should redirect to the same DAB rather than to this page.
    • Re options #2 and #5, "Potato Famine" may be a common collocation abroad I've never heard it used in Ireland. Commenters stating it is "illogical" are, I suspect, masking a visceral WP:UGH with a veneer of half-baked logic; but in their defence, if the bulk of the population of the country where the event took place go "ugh!" at the proposed title, maybe it's time to look for another title.
    • Re options #3 and #6: "The Great Hunger" is just a poetic nickname, suitable for use by historians (or poets like Patrick Kavanagh) for their magisterial surveys but not suitable as a generic neutral term. There must be plenty of books about World War I called The War to End All Wars, or about Elizabeth I of England called The Virgin Queen, but each is a bad name for the Wikipedia article. jnestorius(talk) 22:41, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Just to repeat that 'potato famine' is illogical. It was the people who starved not the potatoes! Maybe this illogic has a bearing on the term not being used very much? Also I don't see what is 'poetic' about 'The Great Hunger' in the context of the famine. In that context it is a bald statement of fact. Therefore I think we should retain the present title. Colin4C (talk) 20:19, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Not that I approve of the title "potato famine", but the charge of illogic is spurious. I challenge you to cite any actual example of a phrase "<noun> famine" where <noun> is the thing that starved rather than the thing that was scarce. OTOH, one can easily google for "grain famine", "wheat famine", etc. jnestorius(talk) 23:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Bangladesh famine of 1974, Dutch famine of 1944, Great Chinese Famine, Bengal famine of 1943, Bengal famine of 1770, Great Irish Famine (1740-1741), 1998 Sudan famine, North Korean famine, Russian famine of 1921, Irish Famine (1879), Vietnamese Famine of 1945, Soviet famine of 1932-1933, Finnish famine of 1866-1868, Deccan Famine of 1630-32, Tenpo famine ... et cetera. Only Highland Potato Famine and European Potato Famine follow the "common" form so far as I can see. By this point I am suffering from jamais vu where the word "famine" is concerned. Time to stop. Angus McLellan (Talk) 01:09, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I was commenting on "<noun> famine", not "<adjective> famine". I've already stated I prefer "Irish famine" to "[Irish] potato famine". My point was that the argument "potato famine is illogical because the potatoes didn't starve" is only valid if people actually say things like "peasant famine" or "prisoner famine" or whatever, referring to the group that starved. jnestorius(talk) 09:13, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps Irish famine of 1845-1852 is the way to go then. Rockpocket 02:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Picking an end-date of 1852 is also controversial. jnestorius(talk) 09:13, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Is there anything that isn't controversial about this? Rockpocket 17:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Sadly when it comes to naming things, logic often isn't top of the list. IPF is most informative in that it imparts who (Irish), how (potato) and what (famine), which is presumably why it is used to extensively. Rockpocket 23:52, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
The other Irish famines were also potato famines. jnestorius(talk) 09:13, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Thats not really the point, is it? Its more informative than the other option. Rockpocket 17:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Option #5 is probably the least worst option. Names such as "Great Hunger" or "Great Famine" are simply too vague even within the context of Ireland and are hopelessly ambiguous to the majority of users who reside outside of Ireland. As far as the comment that "'potato famine' is illogical" goes: 1). Language is often not logical. 2). There is no requirement that Wikipedia be logical especially if at the expense of clarity or precision. — AjaxSmack 02:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
    • The Great Hunger is what the Irish call it. It is only ambiguous to those who know nothing about history. Would you change 'The Holocaust' to 'The Killing of Jews in Europe by the Nazis (1941-45)' in order to be more precise and to aid those who have never heard of it? Colin4C (talk) 09:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I'd call it either Irish Potato Famine or The Irish Potato Famine. I had no idea what The Great Hunger referred to. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 20:13, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Hmmmm. Then this article is tailor-made for you. Sarah777 (talk) 20:16, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
      • How do you figure that? The current name of the article is confusing. It is known internationally as the Irish Potato Famine. Wikipedia is international and has a policy of using the most common name for a subject in article titles. Hence, options #2 and #5 would seem to be the obvious best name for the article. I had ancestors who came over after said potato famine and that's what it's always been referred to as in my family. I know the subject matter quite well, but the Great Hunger is a completely unfamiliar title. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 00:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Any option except #2 and #5 which are totally unacceptable and will lead to massive edit-warring, drama and controversy. They are British POV usage to downplay the Genocide and also imply that the potatoes starved; which isn't true. Sarah777 (talk) 20:21, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Option 8 if a change was to be made; though the status quo is the best option. Sarah777 (talk) 20:25, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
      • BTW, I note the relentless crusade to impose British POV on all Ireland-related articles continues unabated. We have got to call a halt somewhere. Sarah777 (talk) 20:28, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Option #2 or Option #5. They're basically the same and either will do. Reviewing talk, there are many reasons that "The Great Hunger" is not suitable. It's not unambiguous; it's not the common name; apparently it's not even the most common subject of the term "The Great Hunger" if you look on google books. Even if they're the common names in Ireland, "The Great Famine" has many of the same problems, as has "The Famine"; primarily lack of exclusivity. There have been lots of Great Famines. "The Great Irish Famine" with dates might be acceptable, but I can't say it's good. The "Irish Potato Famine" meets the need best. It's common, unambiguous, internationally recognizable. I find the apparent threat of edit-warring above to be rather scary. I hope/assume Sarah777 doesn't mean that she'll edit war! Also, I'm mystified about this idea "the potatoes didn't starve". WTF is that supposed to mean?? Besides, surely any presentation of British responsibility for the starvation/death of a couple of million people in one part of the UK while another part of the UK ate food removed by force from the starving part can surely be made more productively in an article that lots of people might find and recognize. Wotapalaver (talk) 21:27, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment: The view within the published literature on the subject is that the name given to the event reflects particular points of view (POV) on the subject. It also explains which POV some names represent. A number of editors have said based on their WP:OR which I assume is Google searches, they suggest #5. Based only on published sources, would they reach the same conclusion? Use of the term "Famine" is POV, not based on my opinion but on a published source. Could editors provide a source which says "Famine" in the title is not POV, and base their opinions on published sources. --Domer48 (talk) 07:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Domer48, and which source is this? If you mean the Kinealy book then your argument is a REAL stretch. Wotapalaver (talk) 08:18, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
And following on, if "Famine" is so horribly POV then why does the Irish government use the term in all the educational syllabuses, history books, etc? Seems that they see no problem with the term. Also, "Famine" has been used as the term to describe many other man made famines. Wotapalaver (talk) 08:24, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Cecil Woodham-Smith contended that "famine" was a POV term and favoured "hunger" as a better label. However, the bulk of subsequent "published literature" has not supported this view, to the extent of continuing to refer to the event as a "famine". The term "famine" does not have the widespread dislike in Ireland that, say, "British Isles" does; the majority of Irish people refer to the event as a "famine" without any implying political stance. There are exceptions, such as Sinead O'Connor, whose rap "Famine" begins:
OK, I want to talk about Ireland
Specifically I want to talk about the "famine"
About the fact that there never really was one
There was no "famine"...
These lyrics are not aimed at educating foreigners about the Irish viewpoint; they're aimed at educating the uninformed Irish majority about the informed viewpoint. The fact that O'Connor feels the need to do this shows how the Woodham-Smith interpretation remains a minority one. For Wikipedia to adopt Woodham-Smith's name in contrast to both the bulk of scholars and popular usage would therefore be POV. The issues can and should be discussed in the article, but not flagged in the title. jnestorius(talk) 10:06, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
In light of O'Connor's comments, I'd say that "The Great Hunger" is akin to calling the Civil War in the United States "The War Between The States" or "War for Southern Independence," both terms that Southerners are more apt to use than anyone else. O'Connor and, I would guess User:Sarah777, are representing a minority viewpoint. If you want people to actually be able to find this article or know what it is, you call it the Irish Potato Famine, which is what most people call it, academics and lay persons. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 11:45, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
One difference being, of course, that the South isn't a nation, so there's no possibility of such usage being preferred on "national varieties of English" grounds. (That said, its use here would probably be over-application.) Alai (talk) 14:38, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

As is usual, all I see is comment and opinion. If this was an article, there would be more citation tags than diff's. For example "the bulk of subsequent "published literature" has not supported this view" or "Woodham-Smith interpretation remains a minority one," as just two most recent examples. Were are the sources? --Domer48 (talk) 13:06, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Here's one:
McLean, Stuart John (2004). The Event and Its Terrors: Ireland, Famine, Modernity. Stanford University Press. p. p.167, fn 21. ISBN 0804744408. Cecil Woodham-Smith's Great Hunger, originally published in 1962, a work that, although criticized by many professional historians for the quality of its scholarship, its populist style, and its unashamedly partisan stance, remains probably the best-selling book on Irish history {{cite book}}: |page= has extra text (help)
jnestorius(talk) 13:32, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
It isn't just my opinion that the Irish Government uses the term "famine". It's an easily verifiable fact. Wotapalaver (talk) 14:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be pretty heavy support for Option #5 and not a lot of recent action. Is the survey over? Wotapalaver (talk) 10:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
No. Of the ten books specifically on the Famine in the 'Further Reading' section NONE has 'Potato Famine' as the title or part of the title. In fact the word 'potato' is not mentioned in ANY of them. And as me and Sarah have stated over and over again, above, 'potato famine' is illogical. It wasn't the potatoes who starved it was the people. Colin4C (talk) 10:56, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Colin4C, that is your view. Is the name "potato famine" described as illogical in any serious texts? Probably not. I certainly haven't seen it. Meantime if we use your argument I'm sure that calling the famine "Great" could be described as illogical too, since starving to death or dying of typhus doesn't seem so "Great" to me. Similarly we should surely rename all the civil wars on Wikipedia and call them uncivil wars. After all, people weren't being very civil during these wars. Wotapalaver (talk) 12:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
More seriously, many famines have been called "The xxx Rice Famine", or the "The yyy Corn Famine". It's not by any means unique to the Irish Potato Famine and I certainly haven't heard people saying 'but it wasn't the rice that starved'. Wotapalaver (talk) 13:03, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The term “The Potato Famine”…"annoys some: the argument being that the Irish died, not because they lacked potatoes, but because they lacked food." Ref: The Irish World Wide: History, Heritage, Identity, The Meaning of the Famine Vol 6, Edited by Patrick O’Sullivan, pg.3. --Domer48 (talk) 17:35, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

That's one. Wotapalaver (talk) 09:50, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Irish Potato Famine is the commonly used term, however, and that's what people are going to look for it under. I still throw my strong support behind Irish Potato Famine. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 12:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Cormac Ó Gráda, in his introduction to Ireland’s Great Famine, says “for an event with such deep and enduring ramifications, it seems fair to say that until the 1980’s the Great Famine remained under-researched.” Patrick O’Sullivan in his introduction to The Meaning of the Famine agrees, “We can, like Ó Gráda, think of reasons for this neglect of the Irish Famine by Irish historians.” Christine Kinealy in her introduction to This Great Calamity, says, “between 1921 and 1994 only two substantial accounts of the Famine were produced, the first reluctantly…The Irish Famine: studies in Irish history, edited by R.D. Edwards and T.D. Williams,” and six years later Cecil Woodham-Smith’s The Great Hunger was published. Kinealy say “the placatory nature of the volume [The Irish Famine], in relation to the role of the British government was clearly evident in the Introduction,” on Woodham-Smith, Kinealy says, “she was the first modern historian to carry out comprehensive research amongst government papers and workhouse records” which lead Woodham-Smith “to conclude that the British government and some of its administrators were culpable of abandoning the Irish poor.” O’Sullivan goes on to suggest reasons why the subject was neglected “Generally in these islands we are looking for reasons to love one another rather than reasons for hate. The Famine is a controversial subject: and formal academic careers, at lease in their initial stages, are not helped by controversy.” So as far as this subject is concerned, according to Kinealy and O’Sullivan the best selling published source “of all time” on this subject is, The Great Hunger. So would it be possible to reference "Irish Potato Famine" is the commonly used term, when the best selling book of all time on the subject is not the "Irish Potato Famine." Can we please used published sources, as opposed to comment and opinion? --Domer48 (talk) 17:35, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

YES WE HAVE NO POTATOES! I invite all the editors here to point out the occurence of the word 'potato' in the title of any of the books on the famine:
  • Mary E. Daly, The Famine in Ireland
    R. Dudley Edwards and T. Desmond Williams (eds.), The Great Famine: Studies in Irish history 1845-52
    Peter Gray, The Irish Famine
    Cormac Ó Gráda, Black '47 and Beyond
    Christine Kinealy, This Great Calamity: The Irish Famine 1845 - 1852[3]
    John Mitchel, The Last Conquest of Ireland (1861) (University College Dublin Press reprint, 2005 paperback)
    Cecil Woodham-Smith, The Great Hunger, 1845-49 (Penguin, 1991 edition)
    Marita Conlon-McKenna, Under the Hawthorn Tree
    Thomas Gallagher, Paddy's Lament, Ireland 1846-1847: Prelude to Hatred
    Canon John O'Rourke, The Great Irish Famine Veritas Publications 1989. First published in 1874.
    Liam O'Flaherty, Famine
    Colm Tóibín and Diarmaid Ferriter, The Irish Famine Colin4C (talk) 20:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Colin4C for pointing this out. I myself have 26 books on the subject (I will provide a list if editors wish), of which only one has potato in the title, that being James S. Donnelly, Jr, The Great Irish Potato Famine. The books I have would cover the broad spectrum of alternate views on the subject. In addition, I have a number of books from this period in history by contemporary authors who treat this subject extensively. All I would like to see is a discussion based on published works and not based on opinions or personal commentary. Regardless of personal preferences as to the title of the article, through the facility of Redirects the reader will arrive at this article.--Domer48 (talk) 20:58, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


  • I notice none of Domer48's quotes refer to the "Great Hunger" except as the book title. The title of a book is not as good a guide as the way the event is referred to in the text of the book. Titles are often more florid: nobody would argue for "This Great Calamity" as the article title.
  • Article titles and aliases in various encyclopedias (augment as desired):
Britannica
Irish Potato Famine also called Great Potato Famine, Great Irish Famine , or Famine of 1845–49
Encarta
Irish Famine, the Great Hunger (Irish an gorta mor)
The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy
potato famine, Irish
encyclopedia.com From: A Dictionary of World History
Irish Famine
Encyclopaedia of Ireland
Great Famine
Oxford Companion to Irish History
Great Famine
jnestorius(talk) 16:46, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
  • It seems likely from all the discussion and evidence to date that the popular name outside Ireland is "Irish [potato] famine" and the popular and scholarly name inside Ireland is "the [Great] famine". I don't know about the scholarly name outside Ireland. The question amounts to whether the local name deserves extra weight. There are far more English-speakers outside Ireland than inside, but Irish people talk about the famine far more than most of them. I don't know how to reconcile the various applicable Wikipedia policies. Are there any other articles we might look at as a model for this case?
jnestorius(talk) 21:22, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

References to the term “Great Hunger” (and not the book)(augment as desired)

  • Irish Hunger, Tom Hayden, pg.11
  • A Death Dealing Famine: The Great Hunger in Ireland, Christine Kinealy, pg.1
  • Heathcliff and the Great Hunger: Studies in Irish History, Terry Eagleton, Chapter 1
  • History of Ireland, Malachy McCourt pg.192

Now we could add a number of authors, who both use and are familiar with the term, but I think this is sufficient. Now I will not respond to the comment and opinion, as I have outlined above, it will lead no were. Try to restrict yourself to referenced opinion and not your own, thanks.--Domer48 (talk) 22:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


And books that do call it the Irish potato famine are also numerous:

  • The Irish Potato Famine - Carole Gallagher, March 2002
  • The Great Irish Potato Famine - James Donnolly, Sept 2008 (yes, not yet released)
  • The Irish Potato Famine - Nardo & McGovern. 1990 (a history for children)
  • The Irish Potato Famine: Irish Immigrants Come to America (1845-1850), Jeremy Thornton, Aug 2004
  • and more..
  • The Woodham-Smith book, "The Great Hunger", has the following on its own back cover to explain what the book is about; "The Irish Potato Famine of the 1840's, perhaps the most appalling event of the Victorian era...", so don't tell me she doesn't use the term. The Woodham-Smith book has 160 pages with reference to "famine", and 41 with the word "hunger".

There are also lots of references to 'Irish potato famine' in other books. A search on google books for "potato famine" brings up more than 1000 returns, all of which (as far as I can see) talk about the Irish potato famine [1]. If I search for "The Great Hunger", I get hits about the Irish famine, plus a Chinese famine, plus a Ukrainian famine, plus a novel from Norway, plus a famine in Greenland, plus histories of WW2 battles for the Philippines, a Canadian play, plus "The Great Hunger: Poems for Meher Baba, Avatar of the Age", which means that "The Great Hunger" isn't a unique phrase to describe the Irish famine, so I limit the search to books with the words Ireland or Irish. Then there are ~750 hits, lots of which are cross references to the Woodham-Smith book or the "Heathcliff and the Great Hunger" book. If I eliminate those I'm left with <700. [2]. So, it's possible to line up more references to the Irish potato famine than to the (Irish) Great Hunger. Each one of the google books hits is a published source, so please don't talk about my opinion. Many of the references have text like "The Irish Potato Famine, known in Ireland as The Great Hunger..." Wotapalaver (talk) 08:49, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Although since the Irish school syllabus and books call it "the Famine", it's debatable what the famine is most commonly called in Ireland. "The Famine" seems most common. Wotapalaver (talk) 09:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Here's another one. From Cormac O'Grada's "Black 47 and beyond", listed above by Domer48 or Cormac4C among the reasons the article shouldn't be called the Irish Potato Famine. Here's a sentence from Chapter One, page 1, line 1 of the book. 'Whoever says "irish famine" says potato.' Elsewhere on the same page he says 'Understanding the potato famine means understanding the role of the potato before the famine.' I suppose I could go on. Wotapalaver (talk) 13:47, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

How about 'The Irish Famine, 1845-1852', and change the 1740 page to 'The Irish Famine, 1740-1741'?

The second sentence in the current article answers the discussion here: 'It is known by various names, such as The Great Famine in Ireland itself and The Irish Potato Famine internationally'. Asmaybe (talk) 14:53, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Option 2 or 5: Both have wide usage and are more suitable than the current name. --Cameron (t|p|c) 16:29, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

In the 1840’s the Catholic bishop of Derry, Dr. Edward Maginn, who criticised the inactivity of the Whig government of Lord John Russell, had the priests of the diocese compile a list, from November 1846 to April 1847, of deaths through starvation. On Mayday 1847, these lists, wrapped in a black covering, were formally placed among the diocesan records, labelled with an inscription “the Murders of the Irish Peasantry, perpetuated… under the name of economy”. Funny how he did not mention the Irish Potato as being responcible for the Murders? Probably because it would have sounded ridiculous. This discussion has continued below, please join it. --Domer48 (talk) 17:16, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

And what the Bishop of Derry called it may or may not be relevant to today. People, and coroner's juries, in various places blamed Lord Russell for the deaths. It's a separate point. Wotapalaver (talk) 08:51, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


  • Snapshot. Looking at what people said, and counting (option 2 or option 5) as a preference against each, the survey shows:
Option 2 - 4 preferences
Option 5 - 8 preferences
Everything else is one or two preferences. --Bardcom (talk) 15:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

You should read the policies outlined here, and read up on the discussion. --Domer48 (talk) 19:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Something that in my experience is often helpful in contentious Wikipedia pagename debates is to add a section to the relevant article discussing (encyclopedically and with references) the various names for the topic that have been used, by whom, and criticised, by whom. The discipline of having to conform to the MOS and WP guides may distil the rather lengthy roll of assertions on the Talk: page into a manageable concentration of pertinent facts. Currently there are just two uncited sentences in the introduction about this. jnestorius(talk) 18:01, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Relevant policies and guidelines: Wikipedia:Naming conventions; Wikipedia:Naming conflict; Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names); Wikipedia:Naming conventions (events) jnestorius(talk) 13:16, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I can add a couple of pages of relevance here: Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, specifically that Wikipedia is not a democracy, a soapbox or a battleground. Oh, and Wikipedia:There is no deadline. You'll have plenty of time to discuss the issue and to find a compromise. Rather than simply saying what you'd like best, it would be helpful to say what you don't want and what you'd accept grudgingly. The list of redirects should cover most possible names. That's here.

There are some other things to consider. Have you notified the relevant Wikiprojects? Will a note at the village pump bring in new ideas? Would adding this to the article RfC list help? Is Domer48 right to say that references would help here? Questions, questions. Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe that Domer48 is right that references will help here. I've started going through many of the references. So far "Irish Potato Famine" comes out ahead as the most common unambiguous name. "The Great Famine" and "The Famine" are common in Ireland, but there the assumption that they mean the Irish famine is valid; that isn't the case on WP. "The Great Hunger" is a fairly common term, but it's neither the most common nor an unambiguous name. See some references above. Wotapalaver (talk) 16:42, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
OK - I'd accept "The Irish Famine" or the "Great Irish Famine"; but not the "Potato famine". Sarah777 (talk) 20:57, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Can you say why not potato famine? Wotapalaver (talk) 00:13, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I dispute the unproven assertion that "Irish Potato Famine" is the most common name. I agree with Sarah that "Great Irish Famine" is best plus dates. Colin4C (talk) 21:11, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
On what grounds do you dispute that it's the most common name? Wotapalaver (talk) 00:13, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
As has been demonstrated above the majority of titles of books and articles on the Famine do not include the word 'potato' and NONE of the books in the further reading section do so. Colin4C (talk) 11:48, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
It has been demonstrated above that there are many books called "The Irish Potato Famine", and that many of the books in the reading list call the event the Irish potato famine. If none of the books in the Further Reading section have Irish Potato Famine in the title then we can fix that. Wotapalaver (talk) 14:17, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Never heard the term used amongst the folk whose ancestors actually starved, aka The Irish. Secondly the potatoes didn't starve, did they? Sarah777 (talk) 00:45, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I have, extensively. So what? Wotapalaver (talk) 14:17, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
The "potatoes didn't starve thing" is an irrational argument. It's a commonly used term and it looks to be THE most commonly used term for this event, so much so that most people will be looking for it under the term Irish Potato Famine, not Irish Famine or Great Irish Famine and certainly not The Great Hunger. Wikipedia is international and it makes use of the most common title in the English language. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 00:59, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Potatoes didn't starve... Now, that's funny & witty. GoodDay (talk) 00:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

"In the Irish language, the Famine is an Gorta Mór, the Great Hunger. The Great Famine is also widely used. But the term “potato famine” is the most common label for many Americans, tending to reduce the Famine to a freakish accident caused by an unknown fungus that happened to a backward people. In this common narrative, nature is the villain rather than British colonialism." Ref Irish Hunger: Personal Reflections on the Legacy of the Famine, Edited by Tom Hayden, Roberts Rinehart Publishers, USA and Canada, ISBN 1 57098 233 3, pg.11. (High lighted by myself). --Domer48 (talk) 11:42, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

This is the English language Wikipedia. The Irish language Wikipedia may call the famine "An Gorta Mór" all it likes. Further, the reference provided by Domer48 says that potato famine is the most common name in America, right? Wotapalaver (talk) 14:17, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Exactly. I doubt it's the most common name only in the United States either. When writing for an international audience, it's proper to title an article by the most common, widely used name. The fact that they would have to specify which famine they're talking about by putting dates in parenthesis is a good indicator that there has been more than one famine. Great Irish Famine is not a specific name. Irish Potato Famine is highly specific to this particular famine and is widely known. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 15:14, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

"In cases where the common name of a subject is misleading, then it is sometimes reasonable to fall back on a well-accepted alternative." “Potato famine,” I think we can all agree is misleading, the people did not starve because of a lack of potatos, but because of a lack of food. The blight was only one of the proximate cause's, therefore to suggest it was the cause as “potato famine” suggests, is unacceptable. Now I have provided a source which says the term “potato famine” is the most common label for many Americans but not however as being the most common name. --Domer48 (talk) 15:40, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

The body of the article explains the causes and the history. The title itself needs to be the most widely used, most easily recognizable, topic specific title. That's Irish Potato Famine, not Great Irish Famine or Great Hunger. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 15:51, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

So having read the article, it is your opinion that the blight was the sole cause of the famine? Dispite the many other proximate cause's you consider the "Irish Potato Famine" is a topic specific title? "The title itself needs to be the most widely used," based on how you answer the first two questions, I like to see a reference which supports your opinion. --Domer48 (talk) 16:05, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Just to say that those of us here in the British Isles have as much or more right to use our own accepted terminology on this matter as that used in the States. The Famine occured in the British Isles not America. Colin4C (talk) 17:23, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
We're talking about an international encyclopedia, however, not one that's geared only towards an Irish audience. Irish Potato Famine is far better known and is more specific to this topic. That title doesn't need to be clarified with dates explaining which of several famines is being discussed. The references others have quoted all use Irish Potato Famine or refer to it to better explain their preferred title. It does appear to be the most commonly used terminology. It's also the title that has the most votes in the survey above. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 17:42, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Bookworm Wikipedia is not ademocracy, so your point on votes I'll dismiss, rather than ignore, unlike you, who simply ignores the points I rasied above. "It does appear to be the most commonly used terminology." Which simply put means, it may not be the most commonly used terminology, and to date, the only source we have provided is based on original research. This original research comes in the form of Google searches, the standard now used by an international encyclopedia? I have attempted to use published sources which conform to our policy on verifiability, to illustrate the points I'm trying to make. What have I got in return? A Google book search based on the title of books? Please provide sources, and we can have a reasonable discussion. By the way, the best selling title of all time on the subject is "The Great Hunger" and thats sourced. --Domer48 (talk) 18:10, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

From Amazon.com:

  • The Irish Potato Famine (World Disasters)

by Don Nardo ISBN 1560060123

  • The Irish Potato Famine: The Story of Irish-American Immigration (Great Journeys) by Edward F. Dolan ISBN 0761413235
  • The Irish Potato Famine: Irish Immigrants Come to America (1845-1850 (Primary Sources of Immigration and Migration in America) by Jeremy Thornton ISBN 0823989577
  • Shamrock Cargo. A Story Of The Irish Potato Famine.

by Anne Gretzer ASIN B000WU98U6

  • Indifference, not genocide.(The Great Irish Potato Famine)(Book Review): An article from: Irish Literary Supplement [HTML] (Digital) by Margaret Preston
  • The great Irish potato famine (Focus Jackdaw)

by Christine Brendel Scriabine ISBN 156696248X

  • The cry of the famishing: Ireland, Connecticut and the potato famine (Unknown Binding) by Neil Hogan ASIN B0006R77EY

From the Web:

--Bookworm857158367 (talk) 18:39, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

And the point your making is? --Domer48 (talk) 18:54, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

How many of those books make reference to the Irish name used for this period in their history? Now it is a direct question, could you answer it? How many of them address the role of the British government response to the impending disaster? The issue is addressed in all the books I have read, so would it be your opinion having read them books that the title of the article should in fact be “The Great Hunger” based on the conclusions that the authors draw? Which of them would you consider the most detailed? --Domer48 (talk) 19:09, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
The point I have been making is that it is that Irish Potato Famine is the more widely used term. I got over 3 million hits with that term using a raw Google search, compared with 500,000 using The Great Hunger. Not conclusive evidence, but it's still highly suggestive that the one is more common AND more specific. It's also what Encyclopedia Britannica has entitled its article. No, I don't have all the scholarly books you're referencing, but I don't think that matters for an article title. I think we should go by what is the most familiar name INTERNATIONALLY for this topic and the title that is most specific to the subject. You can address the British government's response and all of the other names for the potato famine in the body of the article. It looks to me like the article covers the subject nicely for a layman. But they have to be able to find the thing first to learn about all of the poltical ramifications, etc. And I DO think that the votes of the majority matter here. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 19:17, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
edit conflict..Domer48, the book you keep referring to as the most sold book on the topic (The Great Hunger) refers to the famine as the Irish Potato Famine, as shown earlier. That's sourced. What support (if any) have you got that any other term is more common? Meantime, what you refer to as OR was actually a collation of a list of sources that refer to the famine as the Irish Potato famine. It's not OR. As for Bookworm's point, it's at least that there are MANY books called Irish Potato Famine, and whether or not they deal appropriately with British culpability for the events in Ireland is a different argument. "The Great Hunger" is verifiably the name for several different events, so it's not a good name for a WP article on any specific event without a disambiguation page. Wotapalaver (talk) 19:24, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Wotapalaver are you talking about a review on the back of the Woodham-Smith book? Ok so you conclusion is based on Bookworm's own original research, and not on any source that meets our standard on verifiability. Bookworm you also say, based again on your own original research, that the result is only suggestive, and again you suggest, based again on flawed research ("Not conclusive evidence") that it is in fact "the most familiar name INTERNATIONALLY for this topic." Not only that but the "Irish Potato Famine" as a title is "more specific," dispite the fact that the people did not starve because of a lack of potatos, but because of a lack of food. The blight was only one of the proximate cause's, therefore to suggest it was the cause as “potato famine” suggests, is misleading. Now what was the proximate cause and please explaine how "Irish Potato Famine" is "more specific."--Domer48 (talk) 19:38, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

You asked for places where the term "The Irish Potato Famine" was used. That is what I supplied, based on the list that popped up when I typed the term "The Irish Potato Famine" into the search engine at Google and at Amazon.com Those are the books and their ISBN numbers. How does that qualify as Original Research? I don't own those particular books or any others on the topic, so I can't supply page numbers and in-depth commentary on their quality and the perspective of their authors, etc. But they are indisputably books that have Irish Potato Famine in the title. There's even an abstract of a book review by an Irish newspaper of a book that calls it the potato famine. People know this event by the name "potato famine." They are not confused by that term; they do not think the potatoes must have starved. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 22:51, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Domer, it isn't a review on the back cover, it's the description of the book on its own back cover. And again, the material Bookwork is supplying isn't OR, it's references. And again, the article can easily explain any culpability beyond the blight (e.g. God sent the blight, the English created the famine) in loving detail as long as sources can be provided. None of this changes the fact that the most common name, as found using the various objective tools available to us, is Irish Potato Famine.
Further, "The Great Hunger" is NOT a suitable name, for verifiable reasons already given. You can continue to raise distractions, but it won't change either of these two facts. Wotapalaver (talk) 19:59, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Wotapalaver, it is a review on the back of the book and not by Woodham-Smith. The material Bookwork is supplying is OR, if it was an article on books dealing with the subject then it would be used as a source. Again, the suggested title is misleading, and saying that it is "specific" to the subject is just a distraction. None of this changes the fact that the most common name, using the various objective policies available to us such as [[verifiability, is not Irish Potato Famine. In fact our policies on WP:NPOV should be reviewed in relation to this suggested title. In addition, what verifiable reasons have already been given which says that "The Great Hunger" is NOT a suitable name?--Domer48 (talk) 20:15, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Domer, it's not a review, it's the back of the book. It's the book's own description of itself, if not the author's description then it's the publisher's (they probably specify that it's about the Irish Potato Famine to make sure people understood what a book called "The Great Hunger" was actually about). As for the verifiable reasons why "The Great Hunger" isn't a good name, there are numerous examples, including the fact that it's the name of several other events, books, poems, famines, etc. List of references is not OR so Bookworm is not engaging in OR. You're just trying to throw any possible distraction into the air to avoid simple facts. I can't understand why, but I'm sure you'll tell us. Wotapalaver (talk) 20:23, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Please! There are three possibly 4 reviews on the back of the book, your suggesting that Woodham-Smith wrote of herself that "In this vivid and disturbing book Cecil Woodham-Smith provides the difinitive account." The rest of your post is comment, opinion, and just a plain old trying to throw any possible distraction into the air to avoid simple facts.so I'll not bother with it. --Domer48 (talk) 20:34, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Just to say that American usage of the names of anything dominates the internet and google searches for the simple reason that there are free local calls in the USA - a circumstance not replicated anywhere else in the world (the rest of us in the world have to pay for our computer usage). Wikipedia nomenclature should not be the outlet of American cultural imperialism based on phone rates. Colin4C (talk) 20:39, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh, please. American cultural imperialism? This is an international encyclopedia. The title used for this article needs to be what is most easily recognized and most specific to the topic. There were other Irish famines. There were other Great Hungers. People throughout the English speaking world know exactly what is meant by Irish potato famine. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 22:51, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment and opinion, please provide sources. In addition, read my comment under the title "Edit break" below. Refusing to address the points I raise, is not considered a responce. --Domer48 (talk) 23:03, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I did and I have. You refuse to accept them. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 23:18, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Domer, it is NOT a review. If it's not an own description by the author (and yes, author's can easily refer to themselves by name) it's by the publisher. Anyone can view the back of the book on Amazon.com and see that it's not a review.
The rest of my post referred to facts. "The Great Hunger" is several possible things, including books, plays, other famines, poetry, etc. As for 4C's suggestion that the name "Irish Potato Famine" would potentially be giving in to "American cultural imperialism based on phone rates", that's good! I must remember that! Wotapalaver (talk) 20:50, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
It's a famine that happend in Ireland. Why not call it The Irish Famine? a very straightforward title. GoodDay (talk) 17:12, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
(A) Because there were several famines (B) Because that's not what this famine is most often called. Wotapalaver (talk) 17:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Howabout The Irish Famines? GoodDay (talk) 17:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

This article is just about one of them. --Domer48 (talk) 20:10, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Edit break

How can we have a reasonable discussion when an editor states as a fact that an author writes their own review on the back of their own book. Not only that, but deliberatly ignores the other reviews, and then offers us (having first stated as a fact) if it was not the author, it was the publisher. They then carry merrily on their way to suggest that the Author/Publisger did it to "specify that it's about the Irish Potato Famine to make sure people understood what a book called "The Great Hunger" was actually about." Look, the way it is, this is just plain disruption. This article is the subject of an ArbCom ruling. Please abide by the letter and spirit of that ruling. Now, once again, can we confine ourselves to published sources, and not speculate or use comment and opinion as fact. Thanks, --Domer48 (talk) 20:56, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Any editor can read the back of the book on Amazon.com. [3] The text "The Irish Potato Famine of the 1840's, perhaps the most appalling event of the Victorian era...." appears on the back cover of the book "The Great Hunger". There are also reviews on the back cover, but they're separate. Domer, this isn't disruption, this is an awkward fact if you're saying that the name of one book should be the main driver of the name of this article and then that one book explains itself by describing the event as the Irish potato famine. I'm abiding by published sources. As for the Arbcom ruling, it seems that part of the judgement of that ruling was that you were no editing saint, so don't lecture please. Wotapalaver (talk) 06:57, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

When you have something to add to the discussion, let me know? --Domer48 (talk) 13:24, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

So, reviewing:
first, the overwhelming view from the survey is that Option #2 or Option #5 are preferred because they best meet WP:COMMONNAME
second, the reasoning behind naming the article "The Great Hunger" is weak because it isn't the most common name of the event (even the best sold book on the event calls it the Irish Potato Famine on the back cover, and other books listed as reasons that "Irish Potato famine" was not acceptable also use the term potato famine.)
third, the reasoning behind naming the event "The Great Hunger" is weak because "The Great Hunger" is the name of a number of other famines, a play, poems, and apparently a biography of Shane McGowan.
This indicates that, unless there are better arguments than provided so far, the article should be renamed "The Irish Potato Famine" or "Irish Potato Famine". Wotapalaver (talk) 14:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
How long is the discussion supposed to drag on here? The survey did show a majority vote in favor of Options #2 and #5 due to WP:COMMONNAME. There are three vocal editors in opposition to those options, but their opinions appear to be in the minority and their arguments thus far have not been convincing. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 14:35, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Option #2 and #5 do not meet WP:COMMONNAME Naming conventions, which say that "In cases where the common name of a subject is misleading, then it is sometimes reasonable to fall back on a well-accepted alternative." It has been illustrated, through referenced sources, and the article itself that the suggested title is misleading.
  • Illustrates clearly that they have failed to read previous discussions on this topic, and are completely ignorant as to how the title was agreed upon. In addition, one editor is attempting to use misleading information, and present their opinion as fact.
  • Editors attempting to introduce spurious arguments. There is no other article on the project with the same title. Even if there was disambiguation will address any potential issues.
  • Final point is just more comment and opinion.

Now all I can suggest is you read all of the previous discussions on this subject, and read up on a couple of our policies such as Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion, Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not, and Wikipedia:There is no deadline. Now Wikipedia is not a democracy or a soapbox so stop trying to disrupt this discussion. Every title suggested is already a re-direct so the reader will find the article they are looking for, and the lead in the article makes clear why the suggested title will not do. --Domer48 (talk) 17:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

as far as I can make out, the section Domer48 is alluding to is this:

All that said, I'm happy always to ignore all rules where there is merit to it. I posted above a compromise. That was to have the article moved to The Great Hunger and to have to lead rewritten to something as follows:

'The Great Hunger (Irish: An Gorta Mór or An Drochshaol, litt: The Bad life) reduced the population of Ireland by 20 to 25 percent between 1845 and 1852. It is a highly contentious topic of history and known by various names ranging from The Great Famine to The Irish Holocaust depending on perspective.

The point of this was to arrive at at place where all of the competing perspectives were represented fairly. It is based on Christine Kinealy description of The Great Hunger occupying the most neutral line in perspectives on the event whereas The Great Famine to The Irish Holocaust occupy opposing points (not necessarily equally extreme). Doing one (moving/rewriting) without the other doesn't cut it, they both go hand-in-hand i.e. I proposing that the event only be called The Great Hunger, but that the lede acknowledges two competing perspectives: The Great Famine and The Irish Holocaust. This cannot be separated into small parts without introducing a bias one-way-or-the-other for the reasons I outlined above (e.g. WP:COMMONNAME or WP:WEIGHT). --sony-youthpléigh 10:27, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

OK. Agree with Sony's "package" proposal. Meantime, no need to fight about the current intro if we are replacing it with this version! (Hint, hint). (Sarah777 (talk) 11:08, 5 December 2007 (UTC))
As before, I'm content with Sony's proposals as they properly locate the article within current academic and political discourse. Mackensen (talk) 11:54, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
OK. Agree as per above editors. --Domer48 (talk) 12:53, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Would agree, providing commas are inserted and we use lower-case "the": "... by various names, ranging from the Great Famine to the Irish Holocaust, depending on perspective".--Damac (talk) 14:23, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I'd also agree with the package proposal as outlined by Sony. Caveat: I would like to see some wider discussion first. Last time we had a page move on this issue (IIRC it was a copy and paste move rather than a 'proper' move) it was done at very short notice and resulted in some acrimony. A proposed move (package or no) should at least be flagged with the proposal template and notified on the appropriate Irish-related noticeboards. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 14:27, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Just saw this. I really don't think ranging from the great famine to the Irish holocaust is a good way of saying it. For one that implies 'the great famine' is somehow a name that defends the British, surely if we are going to extremes a article by some scholar or other with a very pro government name for the events can be found? Not saying we should do that, just if we were using extremes. The great famine is the common name in Ireland, not at all pro-government at the time. Overall I think this Irish holocaust stuff is nonsense written by people with a obvious bias to try and draw more attention to themselves. Mention that some decide to call it that in the article by all means but it doesn't deserve to be given as a true alternative name. Sources are supposed to show broad facts, not minor exceptions.--Him and a dog 20:08, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
— Talk:Irish potato famine/Archive 11#Starting this again

Wikipedians agreed on this combination of title and intro in good faith. That does not mean it was the best decision. It certainly does not mean it is a permanent decision: cf WP:CCC. The current intro is rather different from the agreed one; the viability of fixing an intro at all seems questionable to me. It seems the decision was taken in an effort end a big edit war about the description of "holocaust". That debate may have died down, but I'm not sure it's a result of editor satisfaction rather than editor fatigue.

Let me again suggest that, in cases where the nomenclature is controversial, the controversy deserves a section of its own, rather than trying to squeeze the controversy into the straitjacket of the standard intro ("The foo, also known as the lesser Elbonian foo or the Elbino foobar, is a ...) jnestorius(talk) 18:20, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I belive that the editor (Sony-youth) who organized the above compromise, recently came out against it - describing it as failed, a mistake, etc. Wotapalaver (talk) 19:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh, I also still entirely fail to see how the term "Irish Potato Famine" is misleading. This keeps being asserted without explanation, as if it was obvious - which it's not. If nothing else, since there are many books, including apparently the most sold book on the topic, that are happy to refer to the event as the Irish Potato Famine, it's not clear what's misleading about the term. Wotapalaver (talk) 19:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Option #5 per standard WP naming conventions regarding common usage. The objections to the use of the word "potato" in the title seem to me to be often POV bias, and in this case a clear minority is dictating a naming convention inappropriately. It seems quite appropriate that a section of the article itself should address the naming convention and why some folks object to the use of that name, and such section would actually even be more relevant if the article were named properly. Geeman (talk) 19:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Afraid not, please read the the discussion as the reasons are perfectly well outlined. It might also help to read this contrabution here. --Domer48 (talk) 19:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Removing options #2 and #5 from the list

I would like to suggest removing options #2 and #5 from the list of suggest titles. My reasons would be:

  • The titles do not meet WP:COMMONNAME Naming conventions, which say that "In cases where the common name of a subject is misleading, then it is sometimes reasonable to fall back on a well-accepted alternative." It has been illustrated, through referenced sources, and the article itself that the suggested title is misleading.
  • Other than editors original research, no sources have been cited which state that it is the most common name. However I have provided a source which says it is the most common name for many Americans.
  • Based on both the article, and clearly indicated in the Lead, I would suggest that our policy on WP:NPOV form part of this discussion, in that: Neutral point of view is a fundamental Wikimedia principle and a cornerstone of Wikipedia. All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles, and of all article editors.
  • Based on the nature of the subject, I would also draw editors attention to our policy on Article naming, which says "A neutral article title is very important because it ensures that the article topic is placed in the proper context. Therefore, encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality. The article might cover the same material but with less emotive words, or might cover broader material which helps ensure a neutral view..."
  • There are many discussions on this topic in the archive, jnestorius has provided a section from just one, please read the previous discussions, and at least have an informed discussion. Contrabutions should be based on sources, and not comment, opinion or speculation. --Domer48 (talk) 19:55, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
That option is unacceptable given the discussion that has been carried on at length and the majority preference for Options 2 and 5. You have failed to prove your point that the title Irish Potato Famine is misleading. In fact, ample evidence has been presented that it is a more specific and less confusing title than the other options presented. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 23:36, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Contrabutions should be based on sources, and not comment, opinion or speculation. Pointless discussion will not be entered into. --Domer48 (talk) 00:06, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Again, you have NOT presented any proof demonstrating that the title Irish Potato Famine is misleading, that it does not meet the common naming conventions, or that original research has been conducted. Other editors have listed multiple citations proving the contrary. It is not acceptable to remove Options 2 and 5 from the choices given when the majority prefers them for the reasons I listed. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 01:21, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Agree with Bookworm. Quite a bit of evidence has been presented. "The Great Hunger" is shown not to be a suitable title. Irish Potato Famine is shown to be the most common name globally. Domer48 is engaging in repetition ad infinitum to try to bluster through. Most editors prefer Option 2 or 5 as per COMMONNAME. That name is NOT misleading, and is certainly clearer than "The Great Hunger". I mean, it wasn't particularly "great" and people actually DIED instead of just getting hungry. Enough already. Wotapalaver (talk) 06:49, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
It clearly isn't the common name where the issue is likely to be discussed most often. Options 2 and 5 are totally unacceptable and are pov-ridden. (As I have said the potatoes didn't starve - the people did). This attempted move is part of a wider campaign by British Nationalists and their unwitting allies to impose British pov across a wide range of Irish articles; current examples are the "British" Isles; Great Britain and Ireland and now this attempt to downplay the Irish Holocaust. See? Check the links - absolutely no deviation from British Nationalist pov permitted. Sarah777 (talk) 07:59, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Ratchet down the political rhetoric. The question is, pure and simple, what the most common name for this topic is. Irish Potato Famine is far more widely used internationally and is more specific to the subject, as has been demonstrated by the list of titles including Irish Potato Famine provided above by editors. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 12:15, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Who is a British Nationalist? Me? You cannot even demonstrate that, let alone prove it. In any case, some of the editors on British Isles would disagree with you. Stick to facts. Options 2 and 5 are not POV ridden. Irish Potato famine is internationally the common name. Irish authors call it that too. There are more books that call it that than anything else. The most sold book on the subject calls it that on its back cover. In Ireland it's most often called "the Famine" as it doesn't need disambiguation from other famines, of which there have been many. Wotapalaver (talk) 09:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
As I have explained above the 'most google hits' method is not the most scientific way of discovering what a phenomenon is called. It is best to rely on the names of books and articles on the subject. These show that books and articles with "potato" in the title are very few indeed. "Potato famine" is a very slipshod, illogical, inaccurate, POV shorthand. Just because internet junkies often use illogical and pov terminology is no good reason for the wikipedia to follow their lead. Colin4C (talk) 10:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
It's best to look at what the event is called, not what books about the event are called. (and in any case there are many books called the Irish Potato Famine, as previously shown).
The article is about the event, not about the books. The event is most commonly called the Irish potato famine, in books, on the internet, etc, and there are few "internet junkies" that spend their time writing about the Irish potato famine. There's nothing "slipshod, illogical, inaccurate, POV or shorthand" about the name Irish potato famine. Repeating it won't make it so. Wotapalaver (talk) 10:18, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

SIMPLE Question: Was the Potato the single cause of the disaster. YES OR No?--Domer48 (talk) 10:29, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

That's not the right question. It's as silly as asking whether the Great Hunger was really "Great" and using that as the basis for a name. Is the event most commonly called the Irish potato famine? Yes. Can this be demonstrated? Yes. Wotapalaver (talk) 10:34, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles are verified by reliable references. Internet chatter is not a reliable reference. Books and articles by scholars are. According to the latter the term 'potato' is very rarely used as part of the description of the subject. Colin4C (talk) 10:58, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
The subject is NOT misleading. Irish Potato Famine is the most commonly used name for this event. There were multiple Irish famines and a number of other things are called The Great Hunger. Irish Potato Famine has been the title of a number of books and articles about this subject or the phrase has been used to clarify the meaning of another title. Citations and ISBN numbers for those books have been provided above. Clearly, the title is NOT misleading. You have not proved your point; reiterating it again and again does not make it so or eliminate the known facts. Removing Options #2 and #5 from the given options -- the options preferred by the majority -- simply is not acceptable. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 12:15, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
SIMPLE Question: Was the Potato the single cause of the disaster. YES OR No? --Domer48 (talk) 12:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
WRONG question. "The Irish Potato Famine" is the most commonly used term for the event internationally and the sources that I found with that title, even skimming through article descriptions and synopses, also incorporate descriptions of the behavior of British landowners, British politics, British attitudes towards the Irish, the Irish economy, mass deaths and emigration. The title simply is not misleading; it's simply the most common name for an event. "The Great Hunger" and "The Great Irish Famine" are not as familiar and are probably actually misleading because they could refer to other events. Again, eliminating Irish Potato Famine as a title option is simply not acceptable. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 12:38, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll take that as support for my point that:

No, you may not take that as support. The name Irish Potato Famine is not misleading. You can continue to talk in circles, but the facts haven't changed. There's ample evidence above to the contrary. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 13:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

@Domer, repeating something doesn't make it true. It does start to make you look obtuse. The name Irish Potato Famine is not misleading. @Colin4C, describing the articles, websites, book references that come up on a google search as "internet chatter" is disingenuous in the extreme. Also, since Irish Potato Famine brings up more Google books references too, it's certainly not just the normal internet where the event is known as the Irish Potato Famine. Time to review again.

  • Irish Potato Famine is the most common name. (shown by google books hits, google hits, google scholar hits, etc)
  • The Great Hunger is not.
  • The Great Hunger is the name of several other events, including other famines.
    Let's look at google scholar, to eliminate what Colin4C calls "chatter".

[4] is a search for "potato famine" with the words "Irish" or "Ireland". It gets 5110 scholarly hits.
[5] A similar search for "the great hunger" with the words "Irish" or "Ireland", to eliminate the other "great hungers", famines, plays, books, etc., gets 440 hits, i.e. <9% of the number of hits.
I excluded the words "Woodham", "Heathcliff" and "Kavanagh" on both searches to eliminate cross references to three specific books. You could, if you like, add three hits to "The Great Hunger", which would make it +5000 scholarly references Vs 443. Clearly, Irish potato famine is by far the most common term. Unless there's an actual factual argument now I think we're left with ranting from Domer48, Colin4C and (maybe) Sarah77. The case is pretty closed. Wotapalaver (talk) 13:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't have used the word "ranting", but I agree with you that this discussion is over now and we need to get someone uninvolved to move the article. This title never was a good one, and per our policies we use the common name for things when we write articles about them. It's clear there is a vocal minority who oppose this, but I am not convinced by their arguments although I understand why they want to use a particular name for this. Let's close this and move onwards. --John (talk) 15:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the page title should be 'Irish Famine, 1845-1852', on the grounds that 'Irish Famine' is the most commonly used name. However, WP:COMMONNAME doesn't clearly say how to decide what the most common name is. Except to say, 'ask yourself: what word would the average user of the Wikipedia put into the search engine?' Irish Famine would be the most likely, I think, not the Great Hunger. 'Irish potato famine' includes the words 'Irish Famine', but the average user may not know the significance of the potato. In this regard, the WP:COMMONNAME page says that 'using a full formal name requires people to know that name, and to type more'. The dates in my suggested title, 'Irish Famine, 1845-1852' aren't required to bring up this page and typing 'Irish Famine' doesn't lead to WP:DISAMBIGUATION. Neither does 'Great Hunger' by the way, but 'Potato Famine' does. Asmaybe (talk) 15:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Searching for scholarly references shows that potato famine is more commonly used than Irish famine when referring to the famine in question. Also, I do like the quote from the first page of the O'Grada book, Black '47. 'Whoever says "Irish famine" says potato.' Elsewhere on the same page he says 'Understanding the potato famine means understanding the role of the potato before the famine.' Wotapalaver (talk) 15:31, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
The average user is not a scholar and may not know the significance of the potato. That's why 'Irish Famine' is a better title than 'Irish potato famine'. 194.46.252.221 (talk) 15:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
"The average user may not know the significance of the potato"? I wonder if that IP address maps to any average WP editor. Wotapalaver (talk) 15:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, that was me. If you check you'll see that I used the same words in the earlier comment you responded to: 'the average user may not know the significance of the potato'.
For what it's worth (an opinion), I don't think these two options should be deleted. As I said earlier, the WP:COMMONNAME page doesn't give satisfactory guidance for deciding which title is more commonly used. I think 'Irish Famine, 1845-1852' meets the criteria mentioned better than 'Irish Potato Famine' though. Asmaybe (talk) 16:54, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I suggest Wotapalaver you assume good faith in relation to the IP. "Searching for scholarly references shows that potato famine is more commonly used than Irish famine" [citation needed], otherwise its just WP:OR, comment, opinion, speculation. I suggest you read this section in the article all of which is referenced. In relation to adding the years "1845-1852" Christine Kinealy say recent research suggests that no one died of starvation in 1845, (a point also made by Ó Gráda) likewise people were still dieing after 1852, she makes reference also to her own book and her use of the dates in the title. I have no real problem with the dates either way. Ó Gráda is at least a reference, so what has he to say in Ireland's Great Famine pg.253, "The Irish famine is often described as the ‘potato famine’." Highlighting my own. So for the last time:

Who wasn't assuming good faith? I thought it looked like an existing editor. It was. Meantime, we again have Domer48 with irrelevancies and misdirection about what we might have to do IF The Irish Potato Famine was a misleading term, which it isn't. I certainly hope it's "for the last time". O'Grada's text re "potato famine" in Black '47 and beyond is still extant, and calling it the Irish Potato Famine nicely avoids any fuss with start and end dates in the title. Can we move on now? Wotapalaver (talk) 18:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I so glad you decided on Ó Gráda as an example, and that you state quite clearly that "re "potato famine" in Black '47 and beyond is still extant," because if I now give you the additional part of the Ó Gráda quote from Ireland's Great Famine, first published in 2006 I might add, Ó Gráda himself will tell you why it can't be used, and I quote "The Irish Famine is often described as the "potato famine." Giving it a more contextual focus implies paying more attention to the potato and agriculture." Now this article is not about "the potato and agriculture," as the name suggests. This article is much broader than that therefore the name is misleading. Now same book same author "The proximate cause of the Great Irish Famine (was the fungus Phytophthora infestans (or potato blight), which reached Ireland in the autumn of 1845." Notice the use of the word proximate cause, and how we use it in the lead. A very clever word to use, I hope you agree, (it was not me who first used it) and also illustrates why "potato famine" can not be used. They should be taken of the list. --Domer48 (talk) 20:31, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh good, you're glad. It still doesn't mean the name Irish potato famine is misleading, and if it did then "Great Irish Famine" would be misleading too, since it wasn't "Great" and there was no shortage of Irish people, there was a shortage of food. "The Great Hunger" would be similarly misleading, right? This has gone on long enough. Wotapalaver (talk) 22:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Since we accept Ó Gráda as a source, we accept is opinion as to the use of the term "potato famine." Which is that "The Irish Famine is often described as the "potato famine." Giving it a more contextual focus implies paying more attention to the potato and agriculture." Since this article covers a much broader aspect, "potato famine" in the title would be misleading and should not be used. --Domer48 (talk) 17:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

'The Irish Famine is often described as the "potato famine."' Yes, it is. As far as we can see, most often. If misinterpreting O Grada is the best you've got to demonstrate misleading-ness then we're done here. Wotapalaver (talk) 22:30, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
"The Irish Famine is often described as the "potato famine." Q.E.D. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 22:37, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

"Giving it a more contextual focus implies paying more attention to the potato and agriculture." Q.E.D. --Domer48 (talk) 22:41, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I have four old history books in front of me. Three say "The Famine", and one says "The Great Famine". I have enquired from my Irish side, and they say "The Famine", not the potato famine. Neologism it appears to be. Cherry rose (talk) 15:34, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Strange then that there are >5000 scholarly references and a bunch of history books called the Irish Potato Famine, as shown above, and that the most popular book on the subject also calls the events the Irish Potato Famine. Neologism it isn't. Wotapalaver (talk) 15:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

If you want to do an article on books called "Irish Potato Famine" then go right ahead, but on this article it is misleading. The most popular book on the subject is called "The Great Hunger," and a review on the back of a book, who you can not even tell anyone who wrote it, will not wash with anyone. "The Irish Famine is often described as the "potato famine." Giving it a more contextual focus implies paying more attention to the potato and agriculture." Now is this article about the potato and agriculture, NO. Is it the focus of this article, NO. So either you reference your comments / opinions or move on. --Domer48 (talk) 20:02, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Once more, it's not a review. Second, do you really want me to give 5000+ references? Really? Wotapalaver (talk) 21:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move II

A majority of respondants in the first title discussion appeared to prefer Options No. 2 and No. 5. Therefore, I am requesting that this page be moved to Irish Potato Famine, the title that is most commonly used for the event. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 23:49, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that to have repeated discussions over a trivial matter like the article name is at best unhelpful. Please do not submit another move request until a reasonable interval has passed. All this energy would be better focussed on the content. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:57, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but the administrator's move was clearly wrong. The majority wanted it moved to Irish Potato Famine because it is the most commonly used name. A vocal minority should not be permitted to dictate the title of this article. There WAS a consensus here. It's not a trivial issue. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 16:42, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
If you look above you will see that the result of the debate on the proposed move was "no consensus on destination of article." I think the article title should stay as it is. 'Potato Famine' is a loaded POV term, which a lot of people do not accept. The present title is NPOV. Colin4C (talk) 11:48, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
On a point of order; I was warned that reintroducing a motion to move "The Republic of Ireland" to "Ireland (state)" two months after an earlier attempt to move it constituted disruption. So I assume that principle would apply to all articles? Sarah777 (talk) 15:02, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
On a point of order (2); I've lost count of the number of bad Admin calls I've seen - but challenging them is still regarded as "disruption". (Though in this case I cannot agree the Admin made any mistake). Also, please remember that consensus isn't decided by a vote. Sarah777 (talk) 21:14, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Although I dislike the current name, and don't consider it a trivial matter, I don't see the point of reopening the discussion at present. There was a majority in favour of "Irish Potato Famine", but a majority is not the same as a consensus. (Cf WP:PNSD and WP:CON.)
The name issue deserves, as I've said before, more discussion in the article itself, as opposed to the Talk page. Perhaps the article might also bear being refactored into subarticles in a new category (presumably called Category:The Great Hunger — for now) which could have a detailed timeline article, a controversy article, a statistics article, etc.
jnestorius(talk) 22:48, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
If consensus has to mean unanimity then there can almost never be consensus and I can think of a lot of articles where consensus has been declared with several dissenters. In this case the vast majority of editors supported a change, the facts and references supported a change. The only opposition was incoherent and unsupported by references. Wotapalaver (talk) 07:15, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
The opposition raised several important points around issues of POV. POV titles are just not acceptible on the wikipedia no matter how many people vote for them. The present title is NPOV. Colin4C (talk) 09:38, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
The current title is not the most common name and is ambiguous. The most common name is also NPOV. Wotapalaver (talk) 09:48, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Anyway, this whole discussion is pointless as the administrator has already made his judgement on the matter. Maybe we can now concentrate on more important matters of article content? Colin4C (talk) 10:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Move Proposal - Straw Poll

The consensus recently formed is to move the article.

The admin correctly closed the discussion as there seemed to be no consensus as to which destination to move the article to. In my opinion, this was caused by too many options, and options that were too similar (for example, with and without the word "The").

This straw poll limits the options to the ones with the most expressed preferences (including an option to leave as is) with the objective of testing to see if a consensus has formed.

Please show a preference for only one option, and give a short reason. Discussion section below.

  1. Irish Potato Famine
  2. Great Irish Famine (1845 - 1852)
  3. The Great Hunger (current title)

Option 1 - As per WP:COMMONNAME. --Bardcom (talk) 16:37, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Option 1 - as per WP:COMMONNAME. Wotapalaver (talk) 17:53, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Option 1 - As per WP:COMMONNAME. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 17:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Discussions

This discussion was concluded with the administrator's judgement of 'no concensus'. It is illegitimate to open it again less than a week later. Colin4C (talk) 16:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

According to whom? You and two others wanted the article title to remain as it was; a majority of the others wanted it moved to a different title. It's proper to carry on further discussions to determine what that title should be. My request to move the page to Irish Potato Famine was a different request than the one that was originally made. That one presented multiple options. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 18:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
No its not there is no consensus for change. BigDuncTalk 18:03, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I suggest that to have repeated discussions over a trivial matter like the article name is at best unhelpful. Please do not submit another move request until a reasonable interval has passed. All this energy would be better focussed on the content. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:57, 25 May 2008 (UTC). Was this not clear enough? I consider this plain disruptive. --Domer48 (talk) 18:03, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)Please re-review the poll above. Everybody that expressed a preference said to change the title, therefore a consensus for change has been shown to exist. The straw poll above is to test a consensus for a destination with a reduced set of options based on the majority of preferences. The closing admin did not state that a consensus did not exist, only that a consensus over a destination was not clear. This straw poll is not to test whether a move is required or not - that consensus has already been established. Please express your preference via the straw poll above. --Bardcom (talk) 18:23, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that to have repeated discussions over a trivial matter like the article name is at best unhelpful. Please do not submit another move request until a reasonable interval has passed. All this energy would be better focussed on the content. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:57, 25 May 2008 (UTC). Was this not clear enough? I consider this plain disruptive. --Domer48 (talk) 18:30, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Move Proposal - Straw Poll 2

More than a week has passed, time to reopen a straw poll to retest consensus.

The consensus recently formed is to move the article.

The admin correctly closed the discussion as there seemed to be no consensus as to which destination to move the article to. In my opinion, this was caused by too many options, and options that were too similar (for example, with and without the word "The").

This straw poll limits the options to the ones with the most expressed preferences (including an option to leave as is) with the objective of testing to see if a consensus has formed.

Addition: I propose the poll is closed in 5 days, 10 June at 18:00 UTC

Please show a preference for only one option, and give a short reason. Please indicate which options are preferable and which options you object to. Discussion section below.

  1. Irish Potato Famine
  2. Great Irish Famine (1845 - 1852)
  3. The Great Hunger (current title)
  4. The Great Famine
Proposed end date struck out. I suggest allowing a week from the time that this is listed at requested moves. I also suggest that listing this as a history RfC and canvassing opinions at relevant WikiProjects, and perhaps the Village Pump, will ensure the widest possible participation. A site notice may be a step too far, but it wouldn't hurt either. It would be best if this matter were dealt with decisively, once and for all time (or, since that's not possible, as decisively as possible so that we are not back here again three weeks come Wednesday). Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:43, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Poll updated - now not mutually exclusive

Current indicators update as necessary
  • Option 1 Supported by 9, Objected to by 5
  • Option 4 Supported by 8, Objected to by NONE

--Bardcom (talk) 20:18, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Poll Discussion 2

I've been trying to get to the bottom of where the title "The Great Hunger" came from. I've never heard of this term before, and in schools around Ireland it is still referred to as either the Great Famine or the Irish Potato Famine. In my opinion, it comes from a bad translation - the Irish word for famine can also be used to mean hunger. Seems to me that somebody somewhere decided to use the word Hunger, but there's no doubt that in Irish, the term Gorta Mór refers to the Great Famine, and not the Great Hunger. --Bardcom (talk) 17:14, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

The Great Hunger is the title of a book by Cecil Woodham-Smith [8]. I suggest that after this page is moved it would be worth changing it to an article on the book. Scolaire (talk) 10:49, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Scolaire, in Ireland an gorta mór is also the name of the catastropic events of 1845-1852. It is from the Irish name for the events which prompted the name of Woodham-Smith's book. Its just that one would get the impression that The Great Hunger is the only the title of a book. If you would like to read The Cause of Ireland, by Liz Curtis pg. 41 she makes reference to this fact. --Domer48 (talk) 19:40, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that to have repeated discussions over a trivial matter like the article name is at best unhelpful. Please do not submit another move request until a reasonable interval has passed. All this energy would be better focussed on the content. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:57, 25 May 2008 (UTC). Was this not clear enough? I consider this plain disruptive. --Domer48 (talk) 17:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Two responses. First, this is the opinion of Angus, and is not policy. Second, there was a clear consensus to move but the destination was not decided. As per the last attempt at a straw poll, This discussion was concluded with the administrator's judgement of 'no concensus'. It is illegitimate to open it again less than a week later. - well a week has passed. The topic is reopened. --Bardcom (talk) 17:39, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

If the poll is to be closed after five days, may I suggest that Sarah777 (talk) be given an opportunity to vote by proxy? She has had a lot of input into this discussion and it would be a shame if a "consensus" were agreed while she is still negotiating an unblock. Scolaire (talk) 11:19, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

She appears to be blocked for three months for frequent incivility. Given her responses in the above discussion, it can be assumed that she would vote to retain the current name of the article or would want Great Irish Famine. If a proxy vote is something she wants to do, I don't object, but the majority still appears to favor the title "Irish Potato Famine." --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 16:16, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I've asked her. Scolaire (talk) 17:16, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment: "In cases where the common name of a subject is misleading, then it is sometimes reasonable to fall back on a well-accepted alternative,", and Irish Potato Famine is misleading. Christine Kinealy, lists 10 names for the famine on the first page of "A Death-Dealing Famine" (1997) and explains that each has a specific meaning, bias and view. The one's she lists are:

  • The Great Famine
  • The Great Hunger
  • The Great Starvation
  • The Bad Times
  • God's Visitation
  • The Great Calamity
  • The Irish Holocaust
  • An Gorta Mór
  • An Droch-Shaoghal
  • Bliain an Ghorta
She suggests that Great Hunger is the most accurate and least biased among these, whereas "Famine" and "Holocaust" represent opposing ends of a spectrum of bias.--Domer48 (talk) 18:43, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
With due respect to Kinealy, what makes her opinion better than anyone elses? Look, the article is about a famine mainly caused by potato blight in Ireland. The title "Irish Potato Famine" looks spot on to me, especially as it is justified by content in our Famine article. Now, read our Hunger article. The title "Great Hunger" most definitely does not fit our Hunger article. Nor does it fit our Greatness article, which clearly labels "great" as a concept that is heavily dependent on a person's perspective and biases, in other words it is POV. Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 22:02, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

"What makes her opinion better than anyone elses?" The fact that you can cite no other opinion other than your own. Now what about Ó Gráda's, "The Irish Famine is often described as the "potato famine." Giving it a more contextual focus implies paying more attention to the potato and agriculture." The "famine" was not mainly caused by potato blight in Ireland. Read our Article here on it. Now provide an opinion, other than yours that supports your comments. --Domer48 (talk) 12:26, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Well now, lets have a little rationality hereabouts. My opinion is based on the English language. In case you missed it, the article is about Ireland 's (as in where the Irish live) Potato (as in spuds got blight) Famine (as in caused by no spuds to eat). Nothing comes anywhere near describing the article better, unless we substitute Ireland's for Irish. Suppose we could write "Ireland's Great Hunger Caused by Famine Caused by Potatos Becoming Inedible Due To Blight (and other causes)". We could, but a succinct heading accurately describing the actual content of the article is preferable. Do I need a cite for that too, or will commonsense be okay? Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 22:27, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

The people did not die because there was no potatoes! They died because they had no food! Was there no food in the country? Why yes there was, plenty of it. But it was shipped out under armed military guard. So it was'ent just the blight then? No. While every country in Europe was covered in blight only in Ireland was there a "Famine." How is that? Because in every other country, their native government closed their ports to food being exported and actually bought food stuffs and had it shipped in. So the Irish had not native government then? No! They were governed by England. So why is the article not called "British Government Famines in Ireland"? Come back when its not just your opinion. --Domer48 (talk) 23:15, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

What part of "(and other causes)" do you not understand? Do section headings have to have a thousand words? You mention opinion. It is not my opinion -- because you are demonstrating it here for all to see-- that you are throwing all sorts of red herrings about but not addressing the fact that the heading must be pertinent to the article content. Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 05:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
So you have gone from saying it was just the blight to accepting that there were other causes. Now I have asked you to provide a source other than your opinion and I'm still waiting. Were talking about the title of the article, not a section heading, and the Title must be pertinent. So since you will not read the article, or this discussion I put it here again just for you: Christine Kinealy, lists 10 names for the famine on the first page of "A Death-Dealing Famine" (1997) and explains that each has a specific meaning, bias and view. She suggests that Great Hunger is the most accurate and least biased among these, whereas "Famine" and "Holocaust" represent opposing ends of a spectrum of bias. So I have cited someone who has published a review on the name. In addition Ó Gráda quote in Ireland's Great Famine, "The Irish Famine is often described as the "potato famine." Giving it a more contextual focus implies paying more attention to the potato and agriculture." Again a published source who addresses the name. So based on our own interpretations of the information available, then my view "is entirely valid." Based on the information I have provided, it is reasonable to ask that editors provide a cite that says "Irish Potato Famine" is "the most common name", and that it is not misleading as published authors have suggested. Now stop throwing all sorts of red herrings about and addressing the fact.--Domer48 (talk) 07:39, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
If you could comprehend what you had read above (if you actually read it), you wouldn't have led with your chin by saying "So you have gone from saying it was just the blight to accepting that there were other causes". What do you think my hypothetical, verbose, heading was demonstrating? Seems it needs to be spelled out for you. It mentions there are other causes as well, but in the real world that doesn't need to be mentioned in an article title. Irish Potato Famine fits the article admirably, and does not preclude the fact there were other causes. Also, how do you conclude from "Look, the article is about a famine mainly caused by potato blight in Ireland" that I have suddenly accepted there were other causes? Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 08:59, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Possibly because of the misleading Lead Section you have concluded that this article was just about the blight. The Lead is only there because of an editwar and will be addressed. This is the origional lead here. However, apart from the lead, it is clear from the article it is not just about the blight. In addition, you have still not addressed the issues raised by the published sources. Now deal with them, and get back to me. --Domer48 (talk) 13:13, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment: Could editors cite a source which establishes what is the "Common Name." --Domer48 (talk) 18:54, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment: A good test for common name is to see how sources refer to it, not when it is the subject of the study (since those sources tend you use more specific language), but when it is incidental to the subject. So, for example, when scientists discuss the pathogen responsible for the blight, how to they refer to it? [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] Rockpocket 20:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Could editors cite a source which establishes what is the "Common Name." I have cited what is considered the most accurate and least biased, and its not misleading. Ó Gráda quote from Ireland's Great Famine, first published in 2006 "The Irish Famine is often described as the "potato famine." Giving it a more contextual focus implies paying more attention to the potato and agriculture." He says its used often, not that it is the most common name, and the use of the term "potato famine" implies paying more attention to the potato and agriculture. Now that is not what this article is about, so the name is misleading.--Domer48 (talk) 21:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Please bear with me here. I know I've come late to an old and complex debate. It is clear that there is a discussion on whether to move, and to where. "The Great Hunger" is apparently opposed because it is not a common name; "Irish Potato Famine" because it is misleading. But why is "Great Irish Famine" opposed, and why was it moved from there? I'd just like to get a handle on this because it should be possible to agree on a "least controversial" name. "Irish Potato Famine" looks set to get a large majority in the straw poll but that doesn't mean it's uncontroversial, or won't be strenuously opposed. Scolaire (talk) 20:34, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Strenuousness doesn't mean that there is any significant validity. I could strenuously propose that we call the article "The Irish Holocaust", or "The Trevelyan Disaster". There'd be some documentary support, but not enough. Should I be able to block progress with strenuousness? Wotapalaver (talk) 22:05, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a demoracy, a large majority in a straw poll? Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion —Preceding unsigned comment added by Domer48 (talk • contribs)

This is the second or third discussion in a month and the majority are agreed that Irish Potato Famine is the most common name for this event internationally. Evidence has been provided above. There has been more than one Irish famine. I'd object to Great Irish Famine because it is not specific enough and because Irish Potato Famine IS the more specific title, understood by everyone to refer to the event in question. Even those who use alternate titles for it in the literature appear to reference "Irish Potato Famine" so that people know what they're talking about. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 21:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Provide the Diff's to support "Evidence has been provided above" --Domer48 (talk) 21:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how to do diffs. I am referring to Rockpocket's post above and to the previous discussion of a month ago, in which plentiful evidence was provided. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 21:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Tell me the time, date and editor and I will get the diff's. You can get them by reading the discussion. --Domer48 (talk) 22:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Domer48 participated actively in the discussion at [14] so he knows the diffs. Wotapalaver (talk) 22:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Provide the Diff's to support "Evidence has been provided"--Domer48 (talk) 22:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The most specific reference I can find above is by "Wotapalaver (talk) 08:49, 16 May 2008 (UTC)" You objected to the reference, and at great length, but it's still evidence that Irish Potato Famine is a term that is widely used. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 22:09, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
This is the diff [15]. Scolaire (talk) 07:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Scolaire for that, so there is no "Evidence has been provided" just comment and opinion.--Domer48 (talk) 08:32, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

My question was: why is "Great Irish Famine" opposed? The only answer I've had so far is "I'd object to Great Irish Famine because it is not specific enough". That seems a very mild objection compared to what has been said about the alternatives. My point about the straw poll is that a large majority is worth precisely nothing if the minority is implacably opposed. Again, can somebody tell me in simple terms what is objectionable about "Great Irish Famine" and why it is no longer on the menu? Scolaire (talk) 21:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I wouldn't consider that a "mild objection." The title of the article should be specific to a particular event and it should be the most common name for the event. Great Irish Famine doesn't fit the bill because there is more than one famine AND because Irish Potato Famine is the most common name for this event. I also disagree that a vocal minority should be permitted to determine the name of this article when ample evidence has been provided of the common use of the term Irish Potato Famine and of the preference for that name by the majority. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 21:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment: Could editors cite a source which establishes what is the "Common Name." Provide referenced sources, comment and opinion are not considered sources.--Domer48 (talk) 08:37, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, Bookworm. Thank you for the clarification. Can anybody else tell me what is objectionable about "Great Irish Famine"? As I said above, I think we should be looking for a "least controversial" name, not a "biggest majority" one. Whatever a vocal minority is permitted to do, it has to be listened to if consensus is to be achieved. Scolaire (talk) 22:07, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
The vocal minority has been listened to and the title has been discussed at great length. That doesn't mean it must get its way in the end or that the discussion must continue ad infinitum. "Irish Potato Famine" is the most common name and the most specific to this particular event. "Great Irish Famine" and "The Famine" are not specific, particularly since there's more than one famine in Irish history. I don't agree that "least controversial" should trump "most common" name, particularly since "Irish potato famine" isn't universally controversial. One editor above noted that Irish potato famine is also a term used in Ireland. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 22:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment: Could editors cite a source which establishes what is the "Common Name." Provide referenced sources, comment and opinion are not considered sources.--Domer48 (talk) 08:37, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

It's simply not a common name. Common are "Irish potato famine", "The Great Famine", "The Famine". Of these, only "Irish potato famine" is specific enough. "Great Irish Famine" is not terribly common and is primarily an attempt to disambiguate "The Great Famine" for an international context. Remember that the objector to "Irish potato famine" also says that it wasn't a famine at all. Wotapalaver (talk) 22:11, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment: Could editors cite a source which establishes what is the "Common Name." Provide referenced sources, comment and opinion are not considered sources.--Domer48 (talk) 08:37, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure about specificity? Reading Great Irish Famine (1740-1741) I see that it "was due to extremely cold and then rainy weather in successive years, resulting in a series of poor harvests." In the absence of more detail, I would conclude that people died for want of potatoes! "Potato Blight Famine" might be more specific but not "Potato Famine". Bear in mind that I'm coming to this as a previously uninvolved editor with a view to seeing if we can get a stable title, rather than force through a name that will prolong this dispute. Look at it as an excercise in challenging people's assumptions. In opening the poll, Bardcom said "In my opinion, this [the failure of the RM] was caused by too many options...", and this has been taken as a given. But what if it failed because you asked the wrong question? What if, instead of the current poll, you listed the most likely names and asked "which one of these are you most against? By process of elimination, might we not come up with a name that has a greater than evens chance of being stable? Scolaire (talk) 07:40, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment: Could editors cite a source which establishes what is the "Common Name." Provide referenced sources, comment and opinion are not considered sources. --Domer48 (talk) 22:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah, Domer, did you say something about citing sources for "common name"? I'm going to address that issue a bit later today, when I've done some research and typed it up. I don't know what you'll think of my "sources" but I think you'll find my arguments interesting. Scolaire (talk) 10:07, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

No problem as long as your research is not original I don’t mind. If it addresses the issues and concerns raised by both Kinealy and Ó’Gráda all the better, because to date all we have had is Google searches and Book searches.--Domer48 (talk) 10:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Domer. Proposing the reason why one considers a name common inevitably relies on some original research. Unless someone else has published a comprehensive review of what the most common name is in a global context (highly unlikely), then we all have to rely on our own interpretations of the information available. That may involve OR, SYN or simply just opinion. As long as one expresses the basis of their interpretation (as I have done above), then it is entirely valid. It doesn't make it right, just a valid opinion. You may disagree with those interpretation, and express your own, but repeatedly demanding reliable sources that state something is the most common name is not really going to help, because I don't believe that information is available. Ultimately, there is no right answer here, there is only the consensus of justified opinion. Rockpocket 19:10, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Christine Kinealy, lists 10 names for the famine on the first page of "A Death-Dealing Famine" (1997) and explains that each has a specific meaning, bias and view. She suggests that Great Hunger is the most accurate and least biased among these, whereas "Famine" and "Holocaust" represent opposing ends of a spectrum of bias. So someone has published a review on the name. In addition Ó Gráda quote in Ireland's Great Famine, "The Irish Famine is often described as the "potato famine." Giving it a more contextual focus implies paying more attention to the potato and agriculture." Again a published source. So based on "our own interpretations of the information available" as you suggest, then my view "is entirely valid." Demanding that "Irish Potato Famine" is "the most common name is not really going to help, because I don't believe that information is available."--Domer48 (talk) 12:37, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Thats a very interesting comment, Domer. Because the two quotes you provide no evidence that the current name is the most common one. Indeed, if anything they support the opposite view: The Irish Famine is often described as the "potato famine." while the other says "The Great Famine" has become the most common sobriquet for the years of devastation and destruction in Ireland (Its not clear to me whether that ...in Ireland is in reference to the place of the devastation or the place of the common sobriquet). Either way, neither suggest The Great Hunger is the most common name, which appears to be your preference. You appear to be making an argument about the meaning, inferred or implied, behind each of the names. That is a very different kettle of fish to what the most common name is (which is entirely irrespective of what one might infer from them). Yours is a valid argument, actually - I certainly wouldn't dispute that - and is something we should consider. However, the interpretation of any name inevitably depends on whose glasses one reads it through. Kinealy acknowledges as much with her "regarded by some...", "for others..." and "a number of nationalist commentators...". For me, a more important consideration in casting my !vote is how the average, educated English speaker would refer to the event. I believe the Irish Potato Famine best reflects that (followed by The Irish Famine) and nothing in the sources you provide appears to counter it (as far as my understanding goes). Rockpocket 01:37, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

What I clearly show, and you forget to mention is that she says The Great Hunger is the least biased and that is what we are discussing. You have compleatly ignored Ó'Gráda so am I to asume that too is not relevant. You have done nothing to illustrate that your prefared option is the most common name, and not misleading. For me a more important consideration is how the average, educated English speaker would refer to the event, if they were informed of the misleading way it has been described. Now please, no more opinion. Support your comments with citable sources, which says your prefared option is not misleading. --Domer48 (talk) 07:46, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

On Kinealy, Domer48's interpretation of what she says is creative. I invite anyone to read the pages. [16]. On O'Grada, Domer48's creativity in interpreting an author who says that more attention should be paid to the potato and agriculture as an argument that the famine shouldn't be called the Irish Potato Famine is admirable, but fantastically unconvincing. Wotapalaver (talk) 08:42, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
For what its worth, The Encyclopædia Britannica calls their article on the subject "Irish Potato Famine", and then notes also called Great Potato Famine, Great Irish Famine , or Famine of 1845–49 . Rockpocket 23:30, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Encyclopædia Britannica means "The British Encyclopædia", doesn't it Rock? Sarah777 (talk) 22:04, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
As you know, we don't judge the reliability of independent third party sources by their country of publication or their name. Rockpocket 22:16, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
  • It's often done in the real world. A good historian will look at the background of the authorship of an article before reading it. That's the way the real world works. Ask any true historian! 93.107.8.58 (talk) 22:45, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Hmmmm. I don't know that Rock 'cos I'm not sure it's actually true. In this case you assume the "independence" a priori. Which is a bit of a stretch! Sarah777 (talk) 23:02, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
We are not true historians, though, and our goal is not to reflect the technical minutia that professional academics do. If so, our article on the horse would be at Equus caballus, dog would be at Canis lupus familiaris and Zebrafish would be at Danio rerio. A good academic would refer to these animals by their correct name, but we refer to them by their most common name. Why? Because we are not a resource for expert historians or biologists, we are a resource for the man on the street. The question is not "How would an expert Irish historian refer to the famine", the question is "Of all the names, which would the average reader type in the search box to find out more about the famine".
EB is generally considered a sterling source, Sarah. In fact, that was the deciding factor on what to call our animal testing article. I don't think you are going to get too much mileage out of suggesting, because it has "Britannica" in its name, it is somehow biased towards Britain. Rockpocket 23:10, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Rock, I'm not trying to "get mileage" - I'm drawing attention to problems with the source. the question is "Of all the names, which would the average reader type in the search box to find out more about the famine". I'd suggest that the average reader who is interested in quizzing Wiki about the Famine would type in "The Famine" or "The Great Famine" - not by any means clear they'd type in the word "potato". If I was starting a search for info on Chinese famines I'd hardly start with typing "rice" or "pork" into the search box. Sarah777 (talk) 23:24, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Your "problems" with the source (Globally considered one of the most reliable tertiary sources available, no less) appears to be based on the fact that it shares a name with a country. That is ludicrous by any reasonable standard, Sarah, and does little to justify your opinion. Rockpocket 23:37, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
By no means should anyone, or anything be considered infallible. To say EB is an unquestionable source is really stretching credibility, as it is primarily written for a UK readership. No doubt EB has modernised somewhat this last few years, but it is still very much in the process. 93.107.8.58 (talk) 23:49, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
It is most fortunate, therefore, that no-one is suggesting that EB is an unquestionable source. Rockpocket 06:06, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
As an aside, am I the only one who believes that Encyclopædia Britannica is an American, not a British, publication? Scolaire (talk) 05:49, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
No, of course not. It's been published and edited in Chicago for decades, including at least complete revision. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:18, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

(reduce indent) Could we stop beating about the bush and get people to be open about their problem with EB as a source? Express now, or forever hold your peace. Wotapalaver (talk) 22:20, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Whatever the eventual title

I will leave it to all of you to determine which name should go in the title... but I do think that whatever is eventually chosen, the other common names should be listed in the opening sentence as alternatives (per WP:NAME).... using the current title as an example, I would suggest:

  • The Great Hunger (Irish: An Gorta Mór) (Also known as the Irish Potato Famine, and the The Great Famine) was....

Obviously, if the page is renamed, the current title would be swapped with whatever was chosen. Blueboar (talk) 13:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Common name

Almost all of the editors who have voted for Option 1 in the current poll believe they have established that "Irish Potato Famine" is the (rather than a) common name for the event. If I may, I'd like to review the evidence for this. For a start, let's dispense with the Catch-22 argument that "Great Irish Famine" is far less common than "Great Famine", but "Great Famine" cannot be used because it is unspecific. For fairness, these two must be taken together when looking at common names; otherwise you're shooting with a loaded dice. Now, anecdotal evidence on this page suggests it is better known as the "Famine" or "Great Famine" in Ireland and the UK, and better known as "Irish Potato Famine" elsewhere (at least in the English-speaking world—see below); articles on Potato Blight in scientific journals refer to it as "Irish Potato Famine" (but they would, wouldn't they?) and a Google search gets more hits for "Irish Potato Famine" than for "Great Irish Famine". All of this has impressed the editors here, but none of it is proof, or even concrete evidence, that "Great Irish Famine" is not common. In fact, it's not even proof that "Great Irish Famine" is less common, since Google has never been validated as a measure of common-ness. As somebody once said, if there's only one answer it's probably the wrong one. Scolaire (talk) 12:42, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Having gone the Google search route, what about a Wikipedia search? Clicking on 'languages' in this article we are brought to the following (I am not a polyglot, by the way. My translations are based on deduction, on context, on the word for famine and/or potato where it is available in Wiktionary, and on the similarity of languages e.g. Ukrainian and Russian. I am of course open to correction on any of them):

  • Catalan: Gran Fam Irlandesa (Great Irish Famine)
  • Czech: Velký irský hladomor (Great Irish Famine) – "potato" is brambor
  • Welsh: Newyn Mawr Iwerddon (Great Irish Famine)
  • Danish: Hungersnøden i Irland 1845-1849 (Irish Famine 1845-1849)*
  • German: Große Hungersnot in Irland (Great Irish Famine)*
  • Esperanto: Granda malsatego en Irlando (Great Irish Famine)* – "potato" is terpomo
  • Spanish: Gran hambruna irlandesa (Great Irish Famine) – "potato" is patata
  • French: Grande famine en Irlande (Great Irish Famine)*
  • Irish: An Gorta Mór (Great Famine) – "hunger" is ocras
  • Italian: Grande carestia irlandese (1845 - 1849) (Great Irish Famine (1845-1849)) – "potato" is patate
  • Dutch: Ierse aardappelhongersnood (Irish Potato Famine)
  • Norwegian: Hungersnøden i Irland 1845-1849 (::::)
  • Polish: Klęska głodu w Irlandii (Great Irish Famine)* – "potato" is ziemniak
  • Russian: Голод в Ирландии 1845—1849 (Irish Famine 1845-1849) – "potato" is Картофель
  • Serbo-Croat: Velika glad u Irskoj (Great Irish Famine) – "potato" is krompir
  • Swedish: Potatispesten på Irland 1846-1848 (Irish Potato Famine 1846-1848)†
  • Ukrainian: Великий голод в Ірландії (Great Irish Famine) – "potato" is Картопля

Notes: *or Great Famine in Ireland (has this name been considered?) †This is tagged with what looks like a move request to "Den stora svälten på Irland" (lit. Great Starvation in Ireland).
Is anybody having second thoughts about the "most common name"? Scolaire (talk) 12:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

This is the English Wikipedia site. You have provided a number of titles of Wikipedia articles in other languages. No, I'm not convinced that Irish Potato Famine is not the most common title in English. In the May discussion there were a number of book titles, article titles and references cited that use the term "Irish Potato Famine." Since there's more than one famine in Irish history, I don't think "Irish Famine" or "Great Irish Famine" is specific enough. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 13:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
As regards the May discussion, where did I say that books don't "use the term"? As regards more than one famine, see my remarks here. Potato famine isn't "specific enough" either. And what does "This is the English Wikipedia site" mean—that the usage among the ****s and the *****s isn't worthy of note? Scolaire (talk) 13:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Since we are talking about an article in English and a title that is supposed to be the most familiar to people who read and write in English, yes, the usage in English is of more note than the usage in other languages. It doesn't much matter what the Germans or the Russians or the French call it if that usage isn't also the most common in English. And you have yet to prove to my satisfaction that Irish Potato Famine is not the most familiar term internationally in English. Book titles and article titles and other references made in the discussion of May are all very good indicators of English usage and of the "common name". I do not find the Great Irish Famine a specific enough title. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 14:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

And you have yet to prove to anyones satisfaction that Irish Potato Famine is the most familiar or "common name" in any language. --Domer48 (talk) 15:12, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Just as a point, I doubt if there will be a unanimous agreement on whatever name is chosen. Whatever consensus forms on the destination will be implemented. Your arguments against option 1 are good arguments - time will tell if they influence enough people to form a consensus in line with your arguments. But there is no right or wrong with any of the names - they are all valid choices for different reasons. --Bardcom (talk) 15:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
What I am attempting to do here, as I said above, is not to establish the "right" name, or even get unanimous agreement, but to hit on the name that is least likely to lead to further RMs and the consequent battles on the talk page. In fact, I'm going to opt out at this point and just let things take their course. I do hope that good sense and good will prevails. Scolaire (talk) 18:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

They are not my arguments, they are the views of notable academics with published works on the subject. All I'm asking for is sources which reflect some of the other opinions being put forward. Consesus is not built on personal opinion, but informed ones. Straw Polls are not consesus, if they were you could get a group of editors to move the name to "British Famines in Ireland" if that was the case. --Domer48 (talk) 15:33, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

If you want to do an article on book titles for this subject please do so. Is anybody going to cite a source for what is the "most common name"? This is the English "Language" Wikipedia site, which means it is written in English thats all. --Domer48 (talk) 13:21, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
I came to see if we were any closer to changing the name of theis article to a less nonsensical one. What do folk think? --John (talk) 14:32, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
The poll [17] closed a couple of days ago. No votes were registered for the current name of the article. 9 votes were registered for "Irish Potato Famine", citing WP:COMMONNAME. 2 votes were registered for "Great Irish Famine (1845-1852)". Wotapalaver (talk) 14:52, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Not one person has provided any evidence which shows potato famine to be the common name. Not one. I on the other hand have provided sources from notable authors in this field which show it to be both biased and misleading. No some editors are under the impression that this is some kind of vote, its not. If that were the case we could get a group of editors to propose "British Famines in Ireland" and using the same evidence that they have not provided call it to a vote. --Domer48 (talk) 21:36, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the evidence you provide seems, to me, to suggest that different groups of people infer different meaning from different names, some of which object to Irish Potato Famine. In my opinion, noting that some find it biased and misleading is not the same things as them showing it to be biased and misleading. If that is your interpretation, which you are entitled to of course, you must appreciate that others respectfully disagree with you. I can only speak for myself here, but I understand how some find the term objectionable. I simply don't consider that the paramount factor in deciding upon the name, because pretty much every alternative would offend someone for some reason. Instead, I have explained above my reasoning for my !vote and provided sources backing it up. In the absence of contrary "evidence", I believe that is a perfectly justifiable argument. So rather than repeatedly claim your interpretation is correct, and everyone else's is wrong (and thus must be discounted), why don't you ask an uninvolved administrator to read these discussions and close the debate? If your reasoning is the only one that cuts the mustard, then everything else will be dismissed and your preference will be enacted. Rockpocket 21:53, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Rock would you listen to yourself, "seems, to me, to suggest" "In my opinion" "I can only speak for myself" "I understand" "I simply don't" "I have explained above my reasoning" "I believe" its all your opinion. You have not provided any evidence to support your suggestion that it is the "Common Name." All you have offered is your opinion that it can not be sourced or cited. Here is another SOURCE for you.


Now provide a source that suggests "Irish Potato Famine" is A)The "Common Name" and B) that it is not misleading. Now it is my opinion that ‘faminists’ are people who specialise in the subject of "Famines" and that Amartya Sen is something of an authority on the subject of Famines. We know both Kinealy and Ó'Gráda specialise and are authorities on this subject, so their opinion is more valid to this disscussion than ours. So address the issue and provide the sources. --Domer48 (talk) 22:37, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes. It is my opinion, Domer. I, personally, don't consider it appropriate to declare to others that I am right and they are wrong. All I will do is offer my interpretation of the information I am aware of and hope that my justification and reputation is sufficient for that opinion to carry some weight in the debate. This is why I purposely couched my comments in those terms. Likewise I note it is your opinion "that ‘faminists’ are people who specialise in the subject of "Famines" and that Amartya Sen is something of an authority on the subject of Famines".
This is what we do, when discussing these types of things: offer our considered opinions and respect those of others. I have told you already why it is my opinion that "Irish Potato Famine" is the most appropriate name. I am entirely comfortable with that, and I suspect from reading the comments of others, they too are content with their justifications. Therefore, I suggest we let someone a little less invested decide the outcome at this stage, because I don't see any constructive progress being made. Rockpocket 23:16, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
I must say I think the list on non-English names above is rather important and revealing. One of the arguments supporting that Anglo-American version that I have read here repeatedly is that the name "potato famine" is the near universal name outside of Ireland. Clearly that isn't the case and the Google list would suggest that the most common name both globally, and in Ireland where the name is apt to be most used, is NOT the "potato famine" but the Great Famine. We have a serious case of systematic bias at work here in pushing the title "potato famine", IMO. And in defence of WP:NPOV we must all try and eradicate that, surely? Sarah777 (talk) 23:13, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
You may wish to read the section more carefully. This isn't the result of a google survey, it is Scolaire's translation of the titles of other Wikipedia articles. Assuming the titles in other languages aren't as contentious as this one, all it does is tell us the most common name in other languages. It doesn't tell us much about the most common English name is, which is what we are interested in. NPOV does not apply to ascertaining the most common title in every language, just in English. Rockpocket 23:30, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
There is nothing really stopping Wikipedia from having a redirect from IPF to its proper name "The Great Famine". 93.107.8.58 (talk) 23:41, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Rockpocket, I'm not being combative here - I know there's still a lot I don't know - but where does either Common name or NPOV say we can only judge "commonness" by looking at English language sources? Common name says "Use the most common name of a person or thing..."; I see no reference at all to 'English-language'. NPOV says "Where inanimate entities such as geographical features are concerned, the most common name used in English-language publications is generally used" (emphasis mine); very different IMHO from saying that "NPOV does not apply to ascertaining the most common title in every language, just in English" It also says that WP "takes a descriptive rather than prescriptive approach in such cases, describing corporate entities such as cities and states by the names by which they describe themselves (or by the English-language equivalent)", which (again IMHO) suggests a radically different approach to what you said. My reading of both Common Name and NPOV is that how other-language wikis refer to an Irish event is highly persuasive.
93.107.8.58, there already is a redirect from every (blue) name to the current name, so I'm not sure what your point is. Scolaire (talk) 07:10, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
This is the English language Wikipedia, Scolaire. The whole point of determining the common name is to help English speakers find the information. Even if the English name is idiosyncratically different from the translation from every other language, it doesn't change the fact that that is the name we should use. Therefore, when we have an English language name for something, that English speaking people commonly use, its our prerogative to use that title. Now, investigating what other languages use and translating that directly into English is an interesting way of determining the common English name. It certainly adds something to the debate. However, there are certain flaws. Firstly, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that the title of the Wikipedia article in any other language is the most common name used. Secondly, we have no idea whether those articles, and hence the titles, are not simply translated from the English title the author happened to use as a source. This would be a circular argument.
Regarding NPOV, please read the context it was being used in. Sarah said: in Ireland where the name is apt to be most used, is NOT the "potato famine" but the Great Famine. We have a serious case of systematic bias at work here in pushing the title "potato famine", IMO. And in defence of WP:NPOV we must all try and eradicate that, surely?. Her point appears to be we should go with the name preferred in Ireland in interests of NPOV. Well, that statement is contradictory. If we use that reasoning, we are not following NPOV, we are following Ireland's point of view! Rockpocket 18:14, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
You miss my point; Irish people are the most likely to search for the article - thus if we wish to determine what terms the average reader who is likely to search for this article is most likely to use we must consider who those people are. No contradiction at all in what I've said if it is read fully and in context. Sarah777 (talk) 22:35, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Do you really think so? There are probably about 5 million Irish people. That leaves about another 370 million people speak English as their first language (not to mention the 750 million people who speak English as a foreign language and may search for information using it). Rockpocket 22:57, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
First of all, and with all due respect, I would appreciate it if all editors leave their mantras aside until their post-wiki meditation session - I have known from Day 1 that this is English language Wikipedia! I totally reject, and I defy anybody to justify, the assertion that the difference between "Great Irish Famine" and "Irish Potato Famine" is a matter of idiosyncrasy. English speakers, if they have any interest at all in the famine, will at some point have heard both "Great Famine" and "Potato Famine", so let's drop this pointless pretence that one of them is endlessly baffling while the other is crystal-clear, okay? Now, as to your substantive arguments, do you genuinely believe there is nothing "to suggest that the title of the Wikipedia article in any other language is the most common name used"? Does that mean that Norwegian or Italian Wikipedians habitually and deliberately use a less common name? That would be very strange indeed! And no, we have "no idea whether those...titles are not simply translated from the English title the author happened to use as a source", but both "Great Irish Famine" and "Irish Potato Famine" have been titles of the en.wiki articles in the past, so it is at least worth asking why only two other wikis went with the "potato" title, of which one appears to be in the middle of a move request! Finally, I read both Sarah's and your posts and their contexts, and you have no cause to imply otherwise. Sarah's invocation of NPOV, as I understand it, refers to the fact that some people see in the apparently harmless name "potato famine" a political agenda i.e. that the tuber alone was reponsible for starvation and death, and not government or landowners, while the same has not been shown of the alternatives. To reply to that that "NPOV does not apply to ascertaining the most common title in every language, just in English" misses her point completely as well as being inaccurate on just about every count. I was hoping you would be able to justify that statement to me but in fact you haven't even tried. Just what is this mental block that stops so many people from acknowledging that "Great Famine" is a common name for the tragedy? Scolaire (talk) 19:57, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
With the same respect, Scolaire, we appear to be talking across each other. You spend have your response totally rejecting and defying anyone to justify something that I didn't even suggest. I said even if for some reason the English language common name was idiosyncratically different from that used in other languages, that would still be the name we use per WP:COMMON. It was a hypothetical it illustrate the limitations of looking at other languages. I did not make any "pointless pretence that one of them is endlessly baffling while the other is crystal-clear." My position is not that which you attribute to me here. Let me state it clearly: It is my, personal, understanding that Irish Potato Famine is the most commonly used name and the name that describes the event best. If, for whatever reason, that option was not on the table, I would support the Great Famine be used (since it is clearly also commonly used and is relatively descriptive). Both of those options, and a few others, are better than The Great Hunger, which by my understanding, is not commonly used outside Ireland or academic circles and is frustratingly non-descriptive. Regarding Sarah's "invocation of NPOV". I have no insight where your interpretation comes from. My understanding of her comment was that she believes NPOV to be served by taking into account what non-English speakers and Irish people would call it (since they, apparently, refer to it most) rather than what the rest of the English speaking world call it. My comment addresses that interpretation. In the context of WP:COMMON, I do not believe NPOV is in any way served by taking into account non-english names for the famine, because (and excuse me if this sounds like a mantra to you, but it is the justification you asked for) this is the English language Wikipedia and the english language name is what we are interested in. Rockpocket 20:36, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Other than to point out that "Velký irský hladomor" or "Newyn Mawr Iwerddon" is nothing more than a translation of the English language name, I won't take issue with anything you say there. I welcome your commitment that "if, for whatever reason, that option was not on the table, I would support the Great Famine be used." It's all I ask of anyone and I think it would take a lot of the heat out of the situation if others could say the same (Ironically, perhaps, it's not necessarily the name that I will vote for in the end - my mission all along has been only to make the point that there is not only one possible name). I think in the end we will achieve a consensus and in the meantime I'll keep plugging away. Regards. Scolaire (talk) 20:58, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

"A further concern to some ‘faminists’, especially in North America, related to the use of the word ‘famine’. In general, they preferred the phrase Great Hunger’, which they believed was more appropriate to describe a situation in which large amounts of food were still being produced and exported, while people starved." Are the North Americans not English speakers or Australia, and half of Canada, New Zealand etc. This is not the English Wikipedia, its the English language Wikipedia. Please just provide a source which says "Irish Potato Famine" is not misleading. Beacuse you have already agreed you can not find one which says its the most common name. In case you have not noticed, I've been using English language sources, what your suggesting is that English sources take preference. I don't think so. --Domer48 (talk) 19:51, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

By English, I meant the language, not the country. Apologies if that mislead you. Rockpocket 19:58, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
"I must say I think the list on non-English names above is rather important and revealing. One of the arguments supporting that Anglo-American version that I have read here repeatedly is that the name "potato famine" is the near universal name outside of Ireland." A fallacious argument, I'm afraid. This article previously lived at Great Irish Famine for quite a while, so its only to be expected that other wikiprojects doing conversions would use this article as the basis for naming their own. (Welcome back, btw). BastunBaStun not BaTsun 07:27, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
And how many of the quoted articles took that name during the (rather short) time that this article was called "The Great Famine"? I'd suggest you do some checking before characterising my point as "fallacious". It isn't. Sarah777 (talk) 22:42, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
It also lived at "Irish potato famine" for quite a while (maybe longer?), so why did so few articles adopt that name (and none of the articles that named it differently, such as Irish Famine 1845-1849)? Scolaire (talk) 07:34, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Just on this whole Google nonsence, nonsence as a source that is. Burma and Myanmar show how a simple Google search does not determine the common name, which is why the article is currently at Burma per WP:COMMONAME. So would anyone like to actually provide any evidence to back up their assertion regarding the common name of this article?--Domer48 (talk) 13:40, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I have a novel idea; why not source a quote from a notable author in the field as to what the common name is? Now we have two quotes from notable authors who say “Irish Potato Famine” is both biased and misleading. Editors using Common Name have ignored the section which says “In cases where the common name of a subject is misleading, then it is sometimes reasonable to fall back on a well-accepted alternative.” So even if they could provide a source which says it’s the common name (which they can’t), it still could not be used. Why do editors persist when they know this is the case? Why in light of the sources provided did they not say two notable authors says its misleading, so under Common Name scratch my vote? All that was provided was Google Searches. --Domer48 (talk) 18:50, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Because the sources do not say that. They say that some people find it biased and misleading. Which is hardly news. Rockpocket 19:17, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
I have a novel idea, Domer, why not leave your mantras at the door - notable authors, reliable sources etc. and try to talk to people on their own level. This is a discussion page for supposedly intelligent people, and consensus is more likely to be reached if you talk to others as if they have the same level of understanding as you. Scolaire (talk) 20:11, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Common name - arbitrary break

Domer, also note that "Bombay" is found under "Mumbai". Why? Because the type of arguments presented for the "potato" version here couldn't find a majority in face of the number of Indian ENG:Wiki editors! (IMHO) It seems WP:COMMON (as interpreted by some) demands the commonest English name used in the past (regardless of how common) even if that is likely to confound the average reader looking for information on the topic! And it makes no allowance for what any of the 7 billion people whose first language isn't English might call it or search for it or for what that subsection of the English-speaking population who'd actually look for it might call it. When you don't have the numerical strength to force through such a Jesuetical argument in favour of you POV you get "Mumbai"! Sarah777 (talk) 22:58, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

What, you still it Bombay? How very Anglocentric of you! ;-) BastunBaStun not BaTsun 23:05, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Ignoring that pointless jibe - note also that if the Indian EN:Wiki community were saddled with the Irish Manual of Style the article would be called "Bombay" in the same way that Gealtacht towns and villages are adorned in Wiki by the English "common" version, despite the official and locally used name. Sarah777 (talk) 23:08, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Bombay & Mumbai are both irrelevant. Wotapalaver (talk) 23:10, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Absolutely relevant - this argument is around policy. Sarah777 (talk) 23:12, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
The difference is that the city was officially renamed in 1995. English is an official language of India, so the name change is official for that language also, not just in translation. If there was an "official" name for the famine, then that would be a strong argument for using it. In the absence of that, I fail to appreciate the relevance of the comparison. Especially as the dramatic conflict you recount, with the numerous Indian en.wiki editors defending the name, is nowhere to be found in the archives. Lets keep focused on the matter at hand. Rockpocket 23:31, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Effectively it's irrelevant. Application of policy to a case in India will not be helpful to a case about Ireland unless everyone can share a joint understanding of WHY policy was, or should be, applied to the Indian case. That is unlikely. If you wish to discuss the Mumbai/Bombay case, best do it on the article talk pages. I suspect you'll find a long history there. Wotapalaver (talk) 23:16, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Indeed, I have. (I recently had a long Wiki-break and read a bit). Analogous situation and a reasonable guide as to how consensus might be achieved here. As I am discussing the naming of the Great Famine I can't really see how bringing it up on the Mumbai talkpage would help. How do you see that resolving the current discussion? Sarah777 (talk) 23:21, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Cells left-aligned, table centered
Name Google Hits
"Irish Famine" 159,000
"Irish Potato Famine" 126,000

93.107.143.66 (talk) 23:22, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Indeed - or maybe "the UK" or "Britain". But it seems policy is to change policy in every different situation! (And whatever you do don't try to point this out!) Sarah777 (talk) 23:25, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Discussion moved from WP:RM

Copied from WP:RM by JPG-GR (talk) 16:49, 12 June 2008 (UTC):

Comment: This discussion closed on a move request here on the 24 May. Since then there has been more requests request made, one in fact on the same day it was closed,here. It was later removed by one of the Article Mentor’s appointed after and ArbCom ruling. In addition we have had Straw Polls based on the opinion that the no consesus was in fact wrong. The same editor then started another Straw Poll, again suggesting that the consensus was to move the article. They have now placed another Move Request on the Article. Is it the case that an editor can just keep adding requests until the get the result they want? Editors are just adding there names to a list without forwarding any opinion or rational, hardly consesus. --Domer48 (talk) 12:18, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
"Is it the case that an editor can just keep adding requests until the get the result they want? ?" Maybe. But it could be the case that admins keep ignoring "consensus" until those participating give up in frustration. The current WP:ADMINWILLDECIDE system of deciding the best title serves to wear down the stamina of participants so the status quo can reign. Most, if not all, of the participants you accuse of "adding there names to a list without forwarding any opinion or rational" have participated previously (copiously) and might be more succinct now due to the fatigue of having been ignored in the previous discussions. I too have added a support for an option with no opinion or rationale because I've already provided such before and if others are too lazy to scroll up and read the previous discussion, then so be it. — AjaxSmack 15:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
"Is it the case that an editor can just keep adding requests until the get the result they want? ?" Maybe? I have been involved in all of the discussions and ignoring "no consensus" indicates that the arguements, even of a majority were not good enough to change anything. Come up with a better rational and consensus may change. Now I'll ask the question again, "Is it the case that an editor can just keep adding requests until the get the result they want? ?" Now I would like an answer from someone who is not too worn down due to the fatigue of having been ignored because they were to lazy to come up with a better arguement. --Domer48 (talk) 11:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
The admin comment on the previous proposed move was "no consensus on destination", not no consensus to move. The new proposal has fewer options for destination. Wotapalaver (talk) 22:14, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Same suggested move, still no consesus to move. Its not a vote. --Domer48 (talk) 13:22, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment This move relates to the same article as before, and has been relisted because there was a clear consensus to move, but there were 7 options previously, with the most popular option - "Irish Potato Famine" being selected 8 times, and the 2nd most popular "The Irish Potato Famine" being selected 4 times (even though it should have not been provided as an option (see WP:THE). There were only a total of 14 selections made in total, meaning that 12 out of 14 selected a variation of "Irish Potato Famine". The closing admin should perhaps have moved to "Irish Potato Famine" previously, excluding options in breach of WP:THE. A subsequent move request was immediately initiated but was defered till a week later, at the request of an involved editor. The current poll, so far, also reflects this concensus. --Bardcom (talk) 21:28, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment. The poll [18] has now closed. No votes were registered for the current name of the article. 9 votes were registered for "Irish Potato Famine", citing WP:COMMONNAME. 2 votes were registered for "Great Irish Famine (1845-1852)" . Wotapalaver (talk) 08:02, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry but no rational for the move has been place on the discussion. The only rational has been opinion. Again editors assume that it is a vote, could someone please explaine our policies to them. Citable sources have been used which say the name suggested is misleading, could editors please address the issues raised by notable authors. --Domer48 (talk) 12:54, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

You have ignored what evidence has been presented in favor of the most common international name being "Irish Potato Famine" and prefer to call it merely opinion and comment. This poll and discussion, just like the earlier ones, indicate that there is a clear consensus to move this page back to the title Irish Potato Famine. A vocal minority should not determine the title when there is such a clear consensus. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 13:08, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
@Domer48, the Talk page has several hundred lines devoted to this topic from more than 10 editors. Rational was given for the move - please take the time to read it. You may not agree with it, but you rejecting the reasons is not the same as stating that no rational was given. --Bardcom (talk) 16:33, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
The previous discussions, in which references were provided by multiple editors, are above on this talk page. Domer48 doesn't accept them as anything but "comment and opinion." I disagree. I also don't see the point in reiterating the whole argument. The vote above shows a clear consensus for changing the name because Irish Potato Famine is the most common name. The discussions last month, during which references were provided, also support it. This poll is now closed, the time limit declared for discussion is passed. At some point this discussion has to end and the page needs to be moved. --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 18:55, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Provide the diff's which address the cited sources I have used? Provide the sources which support the opinion that it is the "Common Name." Provide the citable sources which state that the suggested title is not misleading. Since I took the time to pick up a book and cite sources, I would expect the same from others. Opinion is not a citable source. --Domer48 (talk) 18:26, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Not a single person has provided any evidence which shows it’s the common name. --Domer48 (talk) 21:06, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
There is extensive data to show that it's the most common name. In any case, the time has closed on the poll. Wotapalaver (talk) 22:52, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. It seems Domer is quite happy to quote (ad nauseum) - and write - policies that he likes, and ignore others that he doesn't. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 23:31, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

And still no sources provided which say it is the common name. Sources for saying it is a biased and misleading name yes. All I see is comment and opinion. But we should all be worried when an admin says "I am aware of and hope that my justification and reputation is sufficient for that opinion to carry some weight in the debate." No it dose not! Your opinion is not a citable source. Now the Encyclopædia Britannica calls their article on the subject "Irish Potato Famine", and then notes also called Great Potato Famine, Great Irish Famine , or Famine of 1845–49 , but it dose not suggest it is the common name. Yet a respected author on the subject says it is biased, and another says it is misleading. Your "reputation is sufficient for that opinion to carry some weight" that is some opinion you have of yourself. Please! --Domer48 (talk) 17:58, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Again, Domer48's claims about these references are - how shall I put it - less than entirely accurate. Interesting that Britannica calls the event the Irish Potato Famine and doesn't apparently even mention the "Great Hunger".Wotapalaver (talk) 18:47, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is based on consensus, a consensus of opinion, based on purely nothing is not the foundation of consensus. Just give me one diff which says that “Irish Potato Famine” is the “Most Common Name.” I have provided cited references which say it is biased and misleading. Were not counting heads! Now just one diff please. --Domer48 (talk) 19:08, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Why aren't the result of the Google searches sufficient evidence? Geeman (talk) 20:41, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Becaues the search result dose not say that it is the common name, and would you describe a Google search result as a WP:RS, a reference or the product of WP:SYN. We also have two sources which say it is biased and misleading. Editors are using Common Name as their rational. Yet Common Name clearly states that: In cases where the common name of a subject is misleading, then it is sometimes reasonable to fall back on a well-accepted alternative. Now once again, provide one diff which says its the Common Name. --Domer48 (talk) 21:14, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Its spelt "rationale". Constant repetition of your one point is disruptive. If a Google (or Yahoo, or whatever) search for all the commonly used terms throws up "Irish Potato Famine" as the most common result, then Q.E.D., it is the most common name. You're asking for a cite from a source specifically quantifying all the various terms used and stating that one is the most common? Get real. Not necessary. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 21:28, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

"If a Google (or Yahoo, or whatever) search for all the commonly used terms throws up "Irish Potato Famine" as the most common result, then Q.E.D., it is the most common name." Afraid not! We never used a simple Google search for the common name, as countless previous discussions show.Wikipedia:Search engine test says "As such, Google is specifically not a source of neutral titles -- only of popular ones. Neutrality is mandatory on Wikipedia (including deciding what things are called) even if not elsewhere, and specifically, neutrality trumps popularity."--Domer48 (talk) 15:00, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


Come back when you cite a source, troll a few books. Now just one diff please. --Domer48 (talk) 22:20, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Really, this discussion is at an end. People have presented evidence; you refuse to accept them and call them "comment and opinion." You refused to vote in the poll, but even if you had the vote would still have been a large majority of 9 in favor of "Irish Potato Famine." The time given for the poll and the continuing discussion has long since past. It's time to put this discussion to bed and move the page to "Irish Potato Famine." This is the last time I will respond on this topic. I suggest others also just leave it up to an administrator to weigh the responses and, hopefully, see that a clear consensus has been reached in favor of the name "Irish Potato Famine." --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 22:55, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
A large majority of 9? It seems to me it was a small majority of four: nine for "potato" against five for "great". If an administrator was closing he/she would se a clear no consensus. But does an administrator close a Straw poll? If so, why is it called a "straw poll"? Scolaire (talk) 06:04, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

People presented nothing. What they did do was refuse to engage in the issues raised during the discussion. Now for the last time, this is not a Vote. Provide source which says it is the "Common Name" and says that it is not biased or misleading. --Domer48 (talk) 08:06, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Can we get ANYTHING that suggests "The Great Hunger" is the most common name? No? OK, then, can we get consensus that the current name of the article is not correct? If so, then we must only weigh evidence between two terms "Irish Potato Famine" and "The Great Famine". Apart from the fact that WP:THE will apply and leave "Great Famine" as a slightly generic term, we could then put evidence for one term in one column of a table and evidence for the other term in another column. Wotapalaver (talk) 22:23, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

A new poll?

Angus McLellan struck out the proposed end date here suggesting "allowing a week from the time that this is listed at requested moves." Now Wotapalaver says that "the time has closed."[19] I am in agreement with Wotapalaver but I would like to have clarity. If it is indeed closed, I want to repeat my earlier suggestion[20] that we open a new poll, listing the most likely names and asking "which one of these are you most against". The names getting the fewest votes could then be discussed to see if any of them is capable of winning a consensus. Angus McLellan also said it "would be best if this matter were dealt with decisively, once and for all time." It has been proved time and time again that basing a name change on a majority vote won't do that; only a consensus. Scolaire (talk) 11:16, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Angusmclellan also said "I suggest that to have repeated discussions over a trivial matter like the article name is at best unhelpful. Please do not submit another move request until a reasonable interval has passed. All this energy would be better focussed on the content. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:57, 25 May 2008 (UTC) Since then we have had another Two. You are right though "It has been proved time and time again that basing a name change on a majority vote won't do that; only a consensus."--Domer48 (talk) 11:42, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
I really feel that repeated attempts to move this article should attract the same censure as would be the case if I tried to move "The British Isles" every other week. I'd be damned by an endless series of editors for being "disruptive" etc etc etc. Some folk would suggest permanent bans. Why does that not apply here? Sarah777 (talk) 23:19, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't really see it as an attempt to move, so much as an attempt to agree where to move it to, in advance of any future MR. But the current/most recent straw poll stands at 9:5 which is a no consensus by any standards. That's why I think we need to change tack. Scolaire (talk) 23:28, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Interesting that NOT A SINGLE VOTE is for the current name. Also, if we take the votes from the previous and current polls, it's far from 9-5. More like (and I haven't counted) 20-5, and one of the 5 is an SPA and two others are editors who have an interesting history on this article. Wotapalaver (talk) 22:08, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Spin it how you want, in this straw poll there is no consensus. It was a good faith attempt to arrive at a generally agreed name and in the last analysis it has not done that. 'Tis true 'tis pity, and pity 'tis 'tis true. Now, does anybody have any comment, positive or negative, on my suggestion? Scolaire (talk) 06:13, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Having nothing better to do, I decided to do a count myself just to see. In the RM that was closed on 24 May "potato famine" in some form had 13 votes, "great famine" in some form 10 votes, and "great hunger" two. The straw poll of 28 May stood at three potatoes to nil when it was abandoned, so even taking those votes into account in all polls the totalled votes are 25:15:2 which is a far cry from 20:5, do you not think? Scolaire (talk) 13:03, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Some editors just can not get their head around the FACT, that this is not a vote. Their is no consensus, so the name stays as it is. --Domer48 (talk) 07:59, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

And some editors just cannot get their head around the FACT that there is a clear consensus to change the name of the article. We appear to be split between a choice of two names, and Scolaire's suggestion above is a good one. Although Irish Potato Famine appears to be a common name, there are valid reasons to object to the name. On the other hand, I for one, do not object to "The Great Famine" as a second choice. I've changed the poll above to reflect this, rather than kick off a new poll. --Bardcom (talk) 11:52, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, Bardcom, I'd much rather kick off a new poll, because (a) polls shouldn't really be tinkered with after they're underway, (b) polls should be at the bottom of the talk page so they can be easily accessed and (c) my idea is not for a "pro" and "anti" poll but simply an "anti" one. Now that somebody has supported my idea :-D I'll set it up and you can see how it will work. In the meantime it might be better if you reverted your edit above :-) Scolaire (talk) 12:09, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Scolaire they changed it to a Move Request, did you not know that. They even listed it on the RM page. But that was when they thought it was going their way. So it was a poll first, untill it looked good for them, that was turned into a move request when they thought it was in the bag. They even listed it on the RM page, and started to call close the poll close the poll. Now that it has gone against them, and it is "no consensus" they're calling have a poll have a poll. What we should ask for is that this move request be closed. If there was any honesty in the process that is. Wait till you see the arguements they use in the next poll, "Common Name" --Domer48 (talk) 13:21, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a link to that RM, Domer? We definitely do need to have it closed. Scolaire (talk) 18:03, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Found it. Done it. Removed the template. Scolaire (talk) 18:51, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
It is still a move request, and it was listed there after a request was made to do so. Do not remove the template - it is still listed. @Domer48, your were aware that Angus requested that it be listed in RM, and you were aware that he requested that the poll was closed after a week once it was listed. Your phrasing that the poll has "gone against them" only serves to polarize a complex issue, and gives me concern that your actions are merely designed to be disruptive in order to maintain the current name. There is a clear consensus to move this article Live with it. @Scolaire, your recent poll is premature and disruptive - let's finish one process before starting another. I have moved the poll to the end, at your suggestion, to see if those that opted for Option 1 would agree to Option 4. --Bardcom (talk) 19:35, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
I was wrong to remove the template. I wrongly but honestly believed that a request hadn't been made. I hope I have grovelled sufficiently on my talk page. I don't see my new poll as either premature or disruptive. Since there is still no consensus on where to move the page to, it represents another attempt to arrive at one. I state very clearly that it is a brainstorming exercise and not a binding vote. Let's just give it a few days and see what comes out of it. Scolaire (talk) 19:56, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Can we see a single argument for "Great Hunger"? Not one. There is consensus to change the name, but apparently not yet to what. Wotapalaver (talk) 13:32, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Third straw poll: the "favourite hate" name poll

This section was moved to the bottom of the page on 21 June 2008 at 11:10 (UTC) to allow the poll to be closed Scolaire (talk) 11:11, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Although a new move request ought not to happen until three months after the closing of the previous RM i.e. 24 August 2008, recent discussions on this page have made two things apparent: first, that if there is to be another RM and if it is to have a chance of success there needs to be a lot more discussion in the interim; and second, the names with the most supporters seem also to be the names that are the most opposed. With this in mind I am conducting a poll to find the names that most people are against, and that therefore have the least chance of becoming (or remaining) an agreed article name. Taking these names out of the discussion might just leave us with some candidate names that could achieve a consensus. A few ground rules:

  • Most importantly, this is a brainstorming exercise only and should not be used in an "it was decided that…" or "some people tried to undemocratically…" argument down the line.
  • Please indicate which one option you are most opposed to, and give a short reason.
  • Names may be added at any time, but should be names that in the opinion of the editor are worthy of consideration and likely to reach a consensus. Please do not add red herring names to draw votes away from your own preferred choice.
  • If adding names after votes have been cast, please inform everybody who has voted to allow them the opportunity of changing their vote.
  • Please do not engage in tactical voting i.e. "the name I dislike most, x, has plenty of votes already so I'll vote for y and knock it on the head too."
  • Please do not leave comments under other people's votes. In the discussion section, please try to avoid re-stating arguments that everybody is already familiar with.

Scolaire (talk) 14:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
The options are:

  1. The Great Hunger
  2. Irish Potato Famine
  3. Great Irish Famine
  4. Great Famine in Ireland - Scolaire 14:10, 18 June 2008
  5. Great Irish Famine (18xx-18yy)

Third straw poll: survey

Third straw poll: discussion

I've been asking myself, why should there be a difference between the common name in Ireland (and the UK) and the common name in the US (and the UK, it depends who's talking)? I believe the answer lies in the sources pointed to by Wotapalaver here and Rockpocket here. Students from outside Ireland and the UK, as well as many in the UK, come to the subject via biological sciences such as microbiology, plant pathology and ecology where it referred to in terms of its "proximate cause" i.e. the Irish Potato Famine. Those in Ireland, on the other hand, come to it via the history of Ireland, and many in the UK through the history of the UK (the Tory Party, Peel etc.) where it is referred to in terms of the scale of human tragedy i.e. the Great Famine or the Great Hunger. A look at the revision history of this article is interesting: in June 2001 it was primarily about the blight, while by January 2003 it was about the human tragedy, and the naming dispute was already under way. This might explain the curious phenomenon of people on both sides saying "this is what it's called; it's never been called anything else!" Taking just one step back from that stance might help to put this vote into perspective. Scolaire (talk) 17:52, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

To those that are saying "The Great Hunger" isn't a common name or is just the name of a book... a Google Books search (which even excludes "Cecil" and "Woodham" to avoid people who are just citing the book) returns around the same number of results as any of the supposedly more common names. Domer48 (talk) 18:07, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Ah, so google search is valid now? If you make IDENTICAL searches looking for "potato famine" for "the great hunger" and for "great famine" and eliminate the cross references to the common books (including the often referenced Kavanagh poem which is almost certainly the origin of "The Great Hunger" in English) from both searches you get nearly a 2:1 ratio in google books and a huge ratio in Google Scholar between "potato famine" and "great hunger". "Potato famine" is WAAAY ahead of "the great hunger" on regular google search too. There are slightly more book references to "great famine" than to "potato famine", slightly more scholar hits on "potato famine" but more than double the web hits on "potato famine" compared to "great famine". The event is commonly known as the potato famine.
"Potato famine" on Google Scholar. 4830 hits [21]
"potato famine" on google books. 1104 hits. [22]
"potato famine" on the web. 354,000 hits. [23]
"The Great Hunger" on Google Scholar. 347 hits. [24]
"The Great Hunger" on google books. 653 hits. [25]
"The Great Hunger" on web search. 50,300 hits [26]
"Great Famine" on google scholar. 3990 hits. [27]
"Great Famine" on the web. 158,000 hits. [28]
"Great Famine" on google books. 1116 hits. [29]
Since Domer48 now doesn't oppose google hits, these results are pretty illuminating. "The Great Hunger" is nowhere. "Great Famine" is pretty common. "Potato famine" is most common. Note that I've made the search the same for all terms. Wotapalaver (talk) 11:31, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Since you appear to have great difficulty reading, I will try make it simple just for you. One editor above says the “Great Hunger” is just the name of a book. Now here is the Diff, saves you having to look click on this. My reply, here is the diff, was to show that it was a common name and not just the title of a book. Now if you are still having trouble understanding this, just ask an admin for help. --Domer48 (talk) 12:24, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't have difficulty reading. Even if I do, it doesn't change the fact that "Great Hunger" is far less common than any other of the names under discussion, nor that "potato famine" is the most common name. Wotapalaver (talk) 12:30, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Wotapalaver, I would have to say that you really did follow my instructions to the letter when I asked people to "please try to avoid re-stating arguments that everybody is already familiar with." Having said that, I have to confess that I found "[a]lso slightly oppose the various makey-uppy versions of "The Famine" and "The Great Famine". The versions actually on offer are (A) not what anyone actually calls the famine and (B) require extensive disambiguation to avoid confusion with any of the other "great famines" and (C) are terribly POV since only Whigs thought the famine was "Great" since it eliminated all those troublesome Irish" to be the most convoluted and hard-to-get-my-head-around arguments ever on WP ;-) Apart from anything else, every option other than "Great Hunger" and "Famine" tout court is a makey-uppy version of "the Famine", is it not? But back to the point: notwithstanding what Domer says, Google searches have been dealt with and the numbers game has gone its three minutes of added time. We're now down to the level of what we can live with and what we can't. It seems to me that a picture is beginning to emerge, so that has to be good, yeah? Scolaire (talk) 22:12, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Sorry if you find my arguments hard to get your head around. As for the "numbers game" indeed, I see lots of people ignoring the numbers. That's not necessarily good. Wotapalaver (talk) 09:36, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Nobody could possibly ignore the numbers, Wotapalaver! What you see is people holding to their POV despite the numbers. That's not necessarily bad. If numbers were the only or even the main criterion, the page would have been moved to IPF long ago, over Domer's and my objections. It hasn't. So, now that the numbers argument has been dealt with exhaustively, we are moving on to other arguments. You can come with us, or you can sit here going "google google google" and really being ignored.
And yes, my previous comments were facetious and unhelpful. Consider them withdrawn. Scolaire (talk) 10:18, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm not saying "google google google", I'm saying "common name", and I'm refraining from any personal diversions into WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Wotapalaver (talk) 10:37, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

There is still a move request pending. It is clear that a consensus has formed to rename the article.

6 people selected Option 4 and also appear to object to Option 1.
9 people indicated Option 1, but did not object to Option 4.

Can those editors that took part in the previous poll and selected Option 1 please revisit the previous poll here and indicate if Option 4 is also acceptable. If so, perhaps a consensus for Option 4 will swiftly emerge, making this current poll superfluous. --Bardcom (talk) 19:48, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Or maybe a consensus for that option will emerge out of this! Will it matter where it emerges from? Do we really need all the bold type? Scolaire (talk) 20:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
My fear is that a closing admin might once again decide that no consensus exists. If that's the case, we'd be stuck with "The Great Hunger" for 6 months (bad). The bold type is just to draw peoples attention to the previous poll. A lot of discussion has moved it off the bottom and makes it difficult to find (it can be found here . --Bardcom (talk) 20:06, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Does Wikipedia keep any record of redirects? If they do, they may show what is the most frequent term that's searched for, and whether redirects are more frequent than direct searchs for "the great hunger", or vice versa. That would be a way of establishing common usage. Asmaybe (talk) 16:30, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

No, but Google can let you compare notes on who is searching for what. It's hardly super scientific, but here it is.
Here's "potato famine" against "great famine" [30] which shows "potato famine" outnumbering "great famine" by 100:6 with "great famine" more popular in Ireland. "The Great Hunger" doesn't even get a mention [31]. That tells you what people are looking for and what's common usage. "Potato famine" is common usage. Wotapalaver (talk) 16:44, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
That supports what you're saying, but the current theme (what's the most objectionable?) is more persuasive. Asmaybe (talk) 19:30, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
I see no way of establishing which is the most objectionable from a poll like this. With just a few long-term partisans you can assert all sorts of things. I don't even doubt that there are people in Ireland who find "potato famine" somewhat annoying, potentially with good reason. However, for good or bad, that's still what the famine is called around the world. The British actions before, during and after the famine, culpability for the famine, etc., are all topics which can easily be presented in the article. Wotapalaver (talk) 09:29, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
That form of Google search comparison is rather cool. :-) Indisputably Irish potato famine is commonly used, but I wonder how well those comparisons assess what people think of as the name for the event? If I were asked to give the name of the famine, I'd call it the Great Famine, but to find info. online about this famine, that's not what I'd search for. I'd probably just plunk the words (not in quotation marks) Irish famine or famine Ireland or Ireland famine into Google. Nuclare (talk) 01:37, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

@Domer: Your earlier point was "To those that are saying "The Great Hunger" isn't a common name or is just the name of a book..." (my emphasis added). No need to have a go at Wotapalaver for responding to what you actually said. @Bardcom: I voted for Option 1 in the previous poll; Option 4 would also be acceptable to me. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 22:50, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it's clear to most of us that "[Great] Famine" is the common name in Ireland and "Irish potato famine" is the common name elsewhere. If policy is to use the common name, then regrettably it must be the latter (with no "The", please!). If the policy is to use the local name, it should be "Great Famine (Ireland)". The Great Irish Famine (1740–1741) article is a red herring; I would long ago have been bold and moved it to Irish Famine of 1740–1741 but I didn't want to be accused of trying to influence this debate surreptitiously. jnestorius(talk) 21:40, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

jnestorius you are not alone! As soon as this debate is over (as I hope it will be soon) I would like to see that other article renamed, either through boldness or through an RM (which I would expect to be far less contentious!). Scolaire (talk) 22:28, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Great Famine (Ireland) is a good alternative suggestion. Rockpocket 23:39, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Third straw poll: conclusions

I have asked people which names they are most against. My conclusions, at this point in time, are:

  1. that there is a consensus for change, and
  2. that Irish Potato Famine will not get a consensus in this or any RM.

What has also come out, much to my surprise I have to admit, is that no name that incorporates "famine", "great" and "Ireland/Irish" is opposed in a straight vote. In other words, a name incorporating those three elements is most likely to get a consensus. As it happens, this is my own POV, but it's now also an objective fact, supported by a (carefully designed and unbiassed) poll. I suggest that the way to reach a consensus from here is to talk about (not vote on) variants of names that incorporate these elements with a view to hitting on one that satisfies everybody's requirements i.e. that it be easily recognisable, that it be unambiguous, and that it not be seen by anybody as contentious. These will include, but need not be restricted to:

  • Irish Famine
  • Great Irish Famine
  • Great Famine (Ireland)
  • Great Famine in Ireland
  • Great Irish Famine (1845-18xx)
  • Great Famine in Ireland (1845-18xx)

Bardcom is anxious to conclude this RM at the earliest possible date. He is afraid (although I don't agree) that if an admin closes it too soon it will not be possible to open another one. So how about it? Is any of these capable of winning acceptance as a POV-free, common and specific name? Scolaire (talk) 11:14, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I've been watching but not contributing to this debate. I'm a little curious about the word "great" being used. I've heard of it being used in conjunction with the famine, but it just doesn't seem right to me. That said, I would generally be in favour of a simple name incorporating Famine, Ireland/Irish and the dates. I personally think that's best.Traditional unionist (talk) 11:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Many of the people who previously participated in discussions have not yet been invited to this one. I haven't had time to invite them. Wotapalaver (talk) 11:59, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
But you've had time to go on talk pages multiple times to explain you don't have time! Scolaire (talk) 12:59, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Ha Ha. I haven't had time. Saying that there are people who need to be invited takes less time than listing the names and inviting them. It doesn't mean that they shouldn't be invited. Wotapalaver (talk) 20:46, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
You gave me three names only. You posted to my talk page twice, and this page once - exactly the same time as it would have taken to go to those three editors and notify them! But here's what puzzles me: the people you're referring to did not participate in "Straw Poll 2" (which became a move request) either, because I notified everybody that participated in that. Yet you never once in three weeks voiced any concern that they hadn't been "invited" to the RM. What makes this poll different? The outcome was different, I suppose, with "Irish Potato Famine" getting a big majority on "Straw Poll 2" and a big "no" vote on this, but it's inconceivable that somebody of your integrity would try to stack votes! ... Isn't it? Scolaire (talk) 22:29, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
I gave three names only because I had time to have a quick look. Doing a proper careful reading of the page takes some time because there is LOTS of page. As for me stacking votes, I don't even know which way those three "voted", I just know that they participated. Wotapalaver (talk) 23:22, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Re "Great": it doesn't just mean "more than good" - definitions 1-3, 5, 7, 10 and 14 from the first entry here would all apply. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 12:05, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
I see nothing gained by Great. Happy with Irish famine. Berks911 (talk) 12:07, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
What would be gained is a way of describing this specific famine, which was just one of many famines in Ireland. The scale of this famine was what was different, thus, it is the 'great' famine. The other thing that is gained is that "The Great Famine" is an actual name used by the Irish for the event. Having said that, I don't object to "Irish famine (Dates)", but Great Famine is a more specific name to tie to this particular event. Nuclare (talk) 15:04, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

(ec) "Irish Famine" implies there was only one. The options incorporating dates may prove problematic (see above conroversy on when did it end). "Great Irish Famine", "Great Famine (Ireland)", and "Great Famine in Ireland" would all be fine with me and would naturally disambiguate from other countries' Great Famines. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 12:10, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

As regards "great", just go to the famine article and see how often that word is used, in the sense of "on a large scale". A typical example is "A few of the great famines of the late 20th century were: the Biafran famine in the 1960s, the disaster in Cambodia in the 1970s, the Ethiopian famine of 1983–85 and the North Korean famine of the 1990s." That is "great" with a small 'g', but specific famines are referred to as the Great North China Famine, the Great Famine in Finland, the Great Famine of 1315–1317 etc. (per my vote above). I'm by no means clinging to the "great" name, just making the point that it is both reasonable and common. Having said that, I can see how "Great Irish Famine" might make you think of "Great Irish Breakfast". From that point of view "Great Famine in Ireland" or "Great Famine (Ireland)" might be better. "Great Famine in Ireland" has the additional advantage that it is already the article name on many wikis (see note 1 to the list of article names at Common name above). Scolaire (talk) 12:34, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

As regards options incorporating dates, I would agree with Bastun that the dates would be difficult to fix (in the sense of "settle definitely") at this time, but I wouldn't rule out a further move six months or more down the line if dates were agreed in the meantime. Scolaire (talk) 12:43, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Are the dates contentious? I for one have no problem having it set in the title as the latest possible year, which I gather from the article is 1852?Traditional unionist (talk) 12:47, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
I suppose putting just the start date might be deemed deceptive??, but it's an idea. As in "Great Famine in Ireland (1845)." Or "Great Famine (Ireland 1845)." The paranthesis comments would be there only to differentiate previous famines, rather than needing to be fully descriptive. Only someone who didn't bother to read any of the text could be deceived by it. But...that's just a suggestion, if end date is too contentious. As to the list of title suggestions: I'm not much fond of "Great Irish Famine," but any of the others, as general formats, "Irish famine," "Great Famine in Ireland," "Great Famine (Ireland)" would be fine. Nuclare (talk) 14:53, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Funnily enough, Nuclare, I had the exact same thought, and I had the exact same reservations. My feeling is that if you asked somebody in Ireland when the Great Famine was, they would answer "well, it started in 1845." so I, for one, would happily live with either of your suggestions. Scolaire (talk) 18:01, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
And I.Traditional unionist (talk) 18:07, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
My opinion is that Irish Famine is not specific enough. All the others are fine (assuming dates could be agreed on) but my preference would be Great Famine (Ireland) or Great Famine in Ireland. I'm not sure the start date is required, unless there is was another Great Famine in Ireland (and I was under the impression that the "Great" was what distinguished this one from the others). Rockpocket 18:14, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
"I was under the impression that the "Great" was what distinguished this one from the others" That's my impression as well. But, then again, I don't claim to know a lot about the discourse surrounding the 18th century famine, which I know was also very devastating. I'm not saying it's set in stone, but it does interest me as to the rationale for setting up the Wiki page on that famine as a "Great" famine. No doubt it was 'great' (in the sense of large scale devastation), but is it *called* "Great Famine" in English? I've never seen a source call it that, but, then again, one doesn't see much discussion of that event full stop. It's obviously far more common to call the 1845 famine 'The Great Famine,' so we are safe in that regard. I'm assuming *if* some form of 'Great Famine' was applied to the 1840s famine, than that earlier famine would be "Irish famine (1740-1741)"? Nuclare (talk) 22:31, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
For discussions on this page of what it is called, see Grahamzilch (aka sony-youth), jnestorius, Colin4C and jnestorius again. The short answer is "yes, it is called the Great Famine". And yes, the article on the 18th century will hopefully be renamed very soon. Scolaire (talk) 06:58, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, Nuclare! I've just re-read this and I see that I completely misunderstood your question! The short answer is no, the 18th century famine is not generally referred to as "The Great Famine", and shouldn't be in WP articles. Scolaire (talk) 09:18, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
I think the "Great Famine (1845)" type suggestions would be problematic, as that might create the impression that the famine lasted only that year; or that the article was one of a series of articles detailing the individual years of the famine. As you say, reading the text would clarify that, but in my experience, if I am confused by an article's title and have to read on to understand it, it straight away annoys me a little. jnestorius(talk) 18:31, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

((outdent)) So far, everyone appears to agree on some form of the words above. Does anybody not agree? --Bardcom (talk) 19:50, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not publish original thought: all material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source. Articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not clearly advanced by the sources. Making up a name for the article based on consensus or a vote and is not attributable to a reliable, published source would not be supported by wiki policies. --Domer48 (talk) 10:09, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Leaving aside the question of including dates in the name, which seems to have little support, the other proposals are not disqualified by WP:NOT or WP:V. All are in widespread use in published reliable sources.
"Great Famine (Ireland)" certainly comes within WP's naming guidelines, in my opinion. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 10:41, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
I must part ways with my esteemed fellow editor here and say that any of the three above seem OK and are in common use (except obviously the third but that is only a dab addition so I'd have no problem with it - though I don't personally like it - surely a point in its favour hereon?). Sarah777 (talk) 12:35, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Au contraire, your personal approval is very important to me at least :-) When you say "the three above" I presume you mean the three googled (blue) options. Have you any feelings on the fourth one, "Great Famine (Ireland)". It's more obviously a dab so maybe you'd like it better? Scolaire (talk) 14:51, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Great Famine (Ireland) is better than "Great Famine in Ireland"; the latter implies GF in I is a name or title whereas it is really a dab/sentence. Sarah777 (talk) 17:38, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Great Irish Famine (1845-1852) would be my selection. Another option, which wasn't in the polls, would be 'Irish Famine (1845-1852)', and then move the 1740 famine to 'Irish Famine (1740-1741)'. Asmaybe (talk) 14:20, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

My conclusion? No-one has any good reason to reject "Irish Potato Famine". The only reason that's coming up is WP:IDONTLIKEIT, which is irrelevant. Wotapalaver (talk) 20:42, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Unfair assessment of the discussion to date. It's not the reason. Read discussion again, and also I LIKE IT. 20:56, 22 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.107.137.69 (talk)
@Wotapalaver, my interpretation is that it has been rejected for a number of reasons. Firstly, some editors claim it is not the common name. For me, it is, but it seems that many Leaving Cert students today call it the Great Famine instead, so perhaps there's a generation thing going on. Second, I suspect that some editors reject it because as a term, it grossly oversimplifies the causes, etc, and somehow infers that the Potato was the sole cause of the deaths, and not government policies, etc. Wikipedia is not the place to right great wrongs, but given the fact I've since learned that many (younger) people today refer to it as the Great Famine, I'm happy to accept this term too (but not for the 2nd reason, only the 1st). --Bardcom (talk) 22:26, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Not a generation thing, Bardcom. I did my Leaving in 1969, and I never heard "Potato Famine" until two weeks ago - it was "The Famine" or "The Great Famine" back then too. Scolaire (talk) 22:40, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps there's two common names then? --Bardcom (talk) 23:36, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Absolutely! See my comments at the top of the discussion section above. Scolaire (talk) 13:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
You know, knowing a lot of Irish people from various generations, I struggle to believe this is true. All of them, from whatever generation, recognize "potato famine" as the name of the famine in question, even if some of them call it "the Famine" in normal circumstances. Wotapalaver (talk) 22:54, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
You'll just have to keep struggling, then. I never heard it until two weeks ago. Scolaire (talk) 23:48, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
@Wotapalaver, the question I raise is whether one should use the common name in Ireland or the common name outside of Ireland. While there are more English speakers in the latter group, those in the former group would refer to the event in question a good deal more frequently than those in the latter. I genuinely don't know what policy is on this question: WP:COMMONNAME does not address this. jnestorius(talk) 23:06, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
There is no policy on this question. Policies deal with general issues, not specific ones. There must be 20 suggested names on this page, and no one of them is more in keeping with, or more in violation of policy than any other. COMMONNAME helps in the great majority of cases, but if it doesn't, as in this case, all we can do is note the fact and move on. At the end of the day, the only important thing is to have consensus. Scolaire (talk) 23:46, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
I tend to agree with Scolaire. I also think the opening few sentences of this shed light on some of the different factors in play here. Rockpocket 17:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
The google trends search I showed earlier indicates that "potato famine" is universally the most common name except in Ireland, that "great famine" is commoner only in Ireland, but that "potato famine" is far more common in the world as a whole. This matches the various other sources, including Rocketpocket's source below. As for Scolaire's point on consensus (below), I do not agree that consensus between half a dozen editors should be allowed to overrule clearly evident facts. Irish potato famine is the most common name for the famine. If that is sometimes regarded as a misnomer, offensive, or whatever, then that can be noted in neutral and clear language. Still, "the great famine" is not an unambiguous name; "the great hunger" is not an unambiguous name. Both require serious disambiguation to be clear and we are in danger of creating confusion and/or neologisms in order to disambiguate. "Irish Potato Famine" only refers to one event; it's the most commonly found name for that one event; it's unambiguous; it's clear; it avoids dates in the name; it does not preclude any discussion of debate about the name or issues with the name; it's simple, easy to spell, etc.,etc.,etc.. The objections to the name are stuck on IDONTLIKEIT and nothing else and even the IDONTLIKEIT arguments rest on nothing more than claims that (a) it wasn't a famine since there was a surfeit of food in Ireland or (b) that people starved and not potatoes. Objection (a) applies to all names with "famine" so it causes an equal objection to "great famine" and thus must really be discounted as an objection to the article name although it can and should be noted in the article and objection (b) is positively silly so ultimately we are left with no real grounds to ignore the increasingly supported fact that "Irish potato famine" is the most common name. Wotapalaver (talk) 23:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
"Irish Potato Famine" doesn't only refer to one event! There were many famines in Ireland over several centuries, and all of them were related to a failure of the potato crop. Only one of them is known as the Great Famine. Okay? It's your argument that's IDONTLIKEIT and we know it off by heart by now! I asked people not to re-hash the same tired old arguments. If you don't like anything but "Potato Famine", wait for the vote and vote against it! Scolaire (talk) 23:48, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Can you point to ANY source that refers to any other famine in Ireland as the "Irish Potato Famine"? Meantime several WP articles refer to a famine in the 1700s in Ireland as a "Great" famine and don't mention failure of the potato crop as a reason. Wotapalaver (talk) 06:39, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Then it might be a better use of your time to fix those articles, mightn't it? Scolaire (talk) 09:10, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Apart from making sarcastic remarks, can you point to ANY source that refers to any other famine in Ireland as the "Irish Potato Famine"? Wotapalaver (talk) 22:15, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Only a few days ago Bookworm said "A vocal minority should not determine the title when there is such a clear consensus." Now that you are in a minority, you are saying "I do not agree that consensus between half a dozen editors should be allowed to overrule clearly evident facts." Interesting! Scolaire (talk) 23:58, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Bookworm and I may have different views. Are you implying something with your "Interesting!" remark? Wotapalaver (talk) 06:20, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
I think it's interesting the way the goalposts get moved when the consensus changes, but implying something? - honestly no. Just an observation and nothing more. Scolaire (talk) 09:10, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
"The google trends search I showed earlier indicates that "potato famine" is universally the most common name except in Ireland" If I'm thinking of the right search -- there was something dubious about the conclusions drawn from that one. It seemed to assume that a person who thinks the famine is called the Great Famine would necessarily search for "great famine," which isn't true. Or am I misinterpreting its data? Nuclare (talk) 04:44, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

(reduce) This is the search [32]. It simply and clearly shows that people search for "potato famine" far more than for "great famine". That's what it shows and that's all it shows. Wotapalaver (talk) 06:28, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. Which doesn't actually prove very much. errr...does it? Nuclare (talk) 11:52, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
It shows that's what people look for. They look for "potato famine" and not for other names for the event. Wotapalaver (talk) 21:42, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
It was always Irish Potato Famine when I was at school. Berks911 (talk) 22:18, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
But wouldn't one have to search every possible search query and compare *all* of them to see whether potatofamine-related searches trump non-potatofamine related searches? Just comparing two very specific ones doesn't seem sufficient to prove what you are saying is proved. Nuclare (talk) 05:08, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
IIRC I made two comparisons; "potato famine" Vs "the great hunger" and "potato famine" vs "great famine". That gives comparison of the most common terms and their main variants. "Potato famine" was hugely more common. Alternates like "Great Irish Famine" are easy to check and also are MUCH rarer than "potato famine". Try [33] to see what that looks like. Even leaving the "The" out of "The great hunger" doesn't change anything. Wotapalaver (talk) 07:05, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
You tried to find the most common name by comparing the most common names? That was scientific! Scolaire (talk) 07:16, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes. That's what I did. It tells you which of the common names is most common. Wotapalaver (talk) 07:18, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
It tells you which of the common names it is most common to search for in *precise* terms. People don't necessarily search for names; they search by keyword. Keywords (both with or without quotes?) would be Irish famine, Ireland famine. Or, heck, maybe lots of people just search under famine alone. It brings up a couple things about Ireland on the first page. And there are other variations to search for names: "the famine," (with and without quotes) for example, etc etc. Individually they may not exceed potato famine varients, but I'm wondering whether its provable to say what people consider the name by this method. With redirects, it doesn't much matter what people search for. Nuclare (talk) 12:09, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
The search terms used aren't *precise*, but are representative of the kids of terms that people use when searching for this famine. We can also compare people searching for "potato famine" Vs "the famine". "Potato famine" wins by 100 to 4. If you look for "potato famine" Vs the famine (without quotes) it's about equal. If we look for potato famine (without quotes) against the famine (without quotes) then potato famine wins again. Besides, we cannot call this article "The Famine" since there were lots of famines. "Potato Famine" is the most common name and certainly the most common unambiguous name. Wotapalaver (talk) 08:33, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

(reduce indent) Interestingly, for those that say that they've never heard "potato famine" or that it's offensive in Ireland, etc....I came across a few speeches. Mary Robinson called it the "great potato famine" on the lawn of the White House in the '90s. President Clinton called it the "potato famine" in a speech in Dundalk in 2000. Senator Edward Kennedy called it the "potato famine" recently while introducing Bertie Ahern in Boston in May 2008. Potliticians speeches are checked before use. Apparently no problem with "potato famine". Wotapalaver (talk) 07:33, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Mary McAleese, current president of Ireland, called it "An Gorta Mor, the Great Hunger, the Irish Potato Famine" in 2007. Apparently no problem with "potato famine". The two recent presidents of Ireland have called it something some editors here would have us believe is not used, offensive, POV. Wotapalaver (talk) 08:10, 25 June 2008 (UTC)


The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved to "Great Famine (Ireland)" as per general consensus. Kafziel Complaint Department 01:07, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Fourth (and final?) straw poll

As I said above, the purpose of the third straw poll was to arrive, by process of elimination, at the name most likely to succeed in a move request. The time has now come to select the one name from all the current suggestions that we are going to put forward. As before, a few ground rules:

  1. Please vote in the format "Prefer Name A, Oppose Name B, Name C, Name D, Will accept Name E, Name F".
  2. Prefer, Oppose and Will accept are all optional. "Oppose Name A, Will accept Name B, Name C, Name D, Name E, Name F" is acceptable, as is "Will accept Names A, B, C, D, E".
  3. Please put one name only as Prefer. Votes with more than one "prefer" will not be disqualified, but they will make the poll more difficult to tally.
  4. Please do not give reasons for your choice. Your reasons may be serious or trivial, but they have already been or can still be discussed at the third straw poll.
  5. Please do not vote for names that are not on the list. Support for alternative names can still be expressed in your vote on the move request. This poll is only for finalising the process begun in the third straw poll.
  6. If you're new to this discussion, please have a brief read of third straw poll to familiarise yourself with the issues before voting (added by Scolaire 06:31, 25 June 2008 (UTC))
  7. Don't be afraid to oppose a name you fought for before. I'm about to.

Scolaire (talk) 16:42, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
The options are:

  • Irish Famine
  • Irish Potato Famine
  • The Great Hunger
  • Great Irish Famine
  • Great Famine (Ireland)
  • Great Famine in Ireland
  • Irish Famine (1845-1852)
  • Great Irish Famine (1845-1852)
  • Great Famine in Ireland (1845-1852)
  • Irish Famine (1845)
  • Great Famine in Ireland (1845)
  • Great Famine (Ireland 1845)

Prefer Great Famine (Ireland), Oppose The Great Hunger, Irish Potato Famine, Irish Famine, Great Irish Famine, Will accept Great Famine in Ireland, Irish Famine (1845-1852), Great Famine in Ireland (1845-1852), Irish Famine (1845), Great Famine in Ireland (1845). Scolaire (talk) 16:42, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Prefer Great Famine (Ireland), Oppose The Great Hunger Will accept Irish Potato Famine, Great Irish Famine --Bardcom (talk) 17:17, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Prefer Great Famine (Ireland), Oppose The Great Hunger, all options that reference only 1845, Will accept all others. Dppowell (talk) 20:21, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Prefer Great Irish Famine, Will accept Great Irish Famine (1845-1852), Irish Famine (1845-1852), Irish Famine, Oppose the rest. Asmaybe (talk) 18:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Prefer Great Famine (Ireland) Oppose Irish Famine (1845), Great Famine in Ireland (1845), Great Famine (Ireland 1845), The Great Hunger Will accept the rest [just corrected my previous vote]--jnestorius(talk) 22:08, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Prefer Great Famine (Ireland) Oppose Irish Potato Famine Will accept the rest. Sarah777 (talk) 20:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Prefer Irish Potato Famine Oppose The Great Hunger Like Irish or Ireland in the name. Berks911 (talk) 22:06, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Prefer Great Famine (Ireland) Oppose The Great Hunger, Irish Potato Famine and Irish Famine Will accept Great Irish Famine, Great Famine in Ireland, Irish Famine (1845-1852), Great Irish Famine (1845-1852), Great Famine in Ireland (1845-1852) Nuclare (talk) 05:57, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Prefer Great Irish Famine (1845-1852). Being the most formal name, it is correct and complete; all of the others have shortcomings, and it would be really lovely if this senseless bickering could stop. Will accept Irish Potato Famine (by far the most common name worldwide). Oppose The Great Hunger (poor translation of An Gorta Mór); oppose Great Famine (Ireland) because it sounds like a bank (cf. "Bank of Scotland (Ireland)"); oppose names with only 1845 in them. Only Great Irish Famine (1845-1852) seems to me to be uncontentious. -- Evertype·✆ 08:09, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

A quick glance above you will show that the senseless bickering had stopped and been replaced by a non-emotive poll at the time you posted that. Also that voters were asked not to discuss the issue in this section. Having said that, thank you for your vote. Scolaire (talk) 13:11, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

My "preference" is not the point. Support "Irish Potato Famine" as by far the most common and unambiguous name worldwide. Oppose all with 1852 as it's not universally or even commonly accepted as the end of the famine. Oppose "The Great Hunger" as not the common name. Oppose all with only 1845 as it suggests famine was only one year. Wotapalaver (talk) 08:19, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Wota, if you are going to insist that your preference is the only acceptable option we are not going to achieve any consensus. "The Famine" is the name most commonly used by those folk ever likely to actually search in Wiki for it - and that is what matters. Sarah777 (talk) 21:56, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure that's not at all true. In elementary school in the US, 35 years ago, I was taught about the "Irish Potato Famine". Not about "The Famine". It is ludicrous to suggest that only people who live in Ireland and went to school in Ireland will be interested in this article. Many Americans (not me, as it happens) trace their Irish heritage to this event. And Wotapalavar is right: Worldwide, "Irish Potato Famine" is what it is known as. -- Evertype·✆ 22:04, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Since the google search data shows that people outside Ireland are searching for famine information far more than people in Ireland, Sarah777's assertion is demonstrably incorrect. In any case, from what I can see it is people insisting that there is some problem with the term potato famine - despite it being demonstrably the common name and used by both the current and former Presidents of Ireland - that are blocking consensus. Wotapalaver (talk) 08:23, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Prefer Great Famine (Ireland) Oppose Irish Potato Famine Will accept The Great Hunger. BigDuncTalk 09:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Prefer Great Irish Famine Oppose The Great Hunger, Irish Famine, Irish Potato Famine, Irish Famine (1845-1852), Irish Famine (1845) Will accept Great Irish Famine (1845-1852), Great Famine in Ireland, Great Famine in Ireland (1845-1852), Great Famine in Ireland (1845). TheChrisD Rants•Edits 10:48, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Prefer Great Famine (Ireland). Oppose Irish Famine, Irish Famine (1845), The Great Hunger, Great Famine in Ireland (1845), Great Famine (Ireland 1845) Will accept Irish Potato Famine, Great Irish Famine, Great Famine in Ireland, Irish Famine (1845-1852), Great Irish Famine (1845-1852), Great Famine in Ireland (1845-1852). BastunBaStun not BaTsun 13:18, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Prefer Irish Potato Famine. Oppose The Great Hunger, Irish Famine, Irish Famine (1845), Great Famine in Ireland (1845), Great Famine (Ireland 1845) Will accept Great Famine (Ireland), Great Irish Famine, Great Irish Famine (1845-1852), Great Famine in Ireland (1845-1852). --Bookworm857158367 (talk) 13:35, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Prefer Great Famine (Ireland) Oppose The Great Hunger Will accept All the others except Irish Famine. Rockpocket 07:17, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Prefer Irish Potato Famine. Oppose The Great Hunger, Irish Famine, Irish Famine (1845), Great Famine in Ireland (1845) Will accept Great Famine (Ireland), Great Irish Famine, Great Irish Famine (1845-1852), Great Famine in Ireland (1845-1852).--John (talk) 14:41, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all for your participation. Here is a summary of the voting:

  • Great Famine (Ireland): Prefer 9, Oppose 2, Will accept 3
  • Irish Potato Famine: Prefer 4, Oppose 5, Will accept 6
  • Great Irish Famine: Prefer 3 2, Oppose 1, Will accept 10
  • The Great Hunger: Prefer 0, Oppose 15, Will accept 1
  • No other candidate got any "prefers".

I now propose to close this poll. I am recommending that we proceed with the move request on the basis of a "The Great Hunger → Great Famine (Ireland)" move. Scolaire (talk) 10:30, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

My mistake, Asmaybe! Thank you for pointing it out. Scolaire (talk) 05:44, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Have the other participants in previous polls all been invited?? Wotapalaver (talk) 16:59, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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